Vardýnn Master Plan Discussion

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About Masterplans
Santhworld: Program
SW.: Game Designer
SW.: Treasure Shoals
SW.: Lorehold
SW.: Nepris
SW.: Trivia
Santharia: Manthria
Nybelmar: Zhunite Pl.
Sarvonia: Icelands

World Map Overview
Distances in Caelereth
Climate Map of Sarvonia
Continent: Aeruillin
Continent: Akdor
Continent: Cyhalloi
Continent: Nybelmar
Continent: +Details NE
Continent: +Details NW
Continent: +Details SE
Continent: +Details SW
Continent: +Politics
Continent: Sarvonia
Lands: Icelands
Lands: +Tribes
Lands: Caael'heroth
Lands: Iol Peninsula
Lands: Kanapans
Lands: Kuglim Lands
Kingdom: Santharia
Kingdom: +Ancient
Kingdom: +Provinces
Kingdom: +Rivers
Kingdom: +Routes
Details: Manthria
Details: Vardýnn
Details: Ráhaz-Dáth
Details: Silvermarshes

Create Beasts
Create Plants
Create Races/Tribes
Create People
People Nomenclature
Create Places
Create Gods, Myths...
Create Spells/Magic
Create Library Entries
Create Misc. Stuff

Reserving Resources
Arbaon Pictures
Bard Judith Pictures
Eratin Pictures
Faugar Pictures
Grunok's Pictures
Ingeborg Pictures
Isilhir Pictures
Koldar Pictures
Linda Tso Pictures
Quellion Pictures
Quellion Pictures II
Shayan's Pictures
Seeker Pictures
Sheil Pictures
Sheil Pictures II

Proverbs & Sayings
Styrásh (Elvish)
Thergerim (Dwarvish)
Kuglimz'Seitre
Kh'omchr'om (Orcish)
Trollish

[Mina]

Many of your rivers look sort of backwards.  In general, rivers join up, rather than split apart, except at deltas. 

I haven't thought so far as castles, though I would assume at least one castle per duchy.

Probably more, since dukes are most likely not the only ones with castles.  Besides, each Santharian province is, I think, about the size of a fairly large European country, and those seemed to have castles all over the place.  Of course, it's probably not a good idea to show every single castle. 

[Bard Judith]

Famous story from Frank Koch:

"Two battleships assigned to the training squadron had been at sea on maneuvers in heavy weather for several days.
I was serving on the lead battleship and was on watch on the bridge as night fell.
The visibility was poor with patchy fog, so the captain remained on the bridge keeping an eye on all activities.

Shortly after dark, the lookout on the wing reported, "Light, bearing on the starboard bow."
"Is it steady or moving astern?" the captain called out.
The lookout replied, "Steady, Captain," which meant we were on a dangerous collision course with that ship.
The captain then called to the signalman, "Signal that ship: 'We are on a collision course, advise you change course twenty degrees.'"
Back came the signal, "Advisable for you to change course twenty degrees."

The captain said, "Send: "I'm a captain, change course twenty degrees.'"
"I'm a seaman second-class," came the reply. "You had better change course twenty degrees."

By that time the captain was furious. He spat out, "Send: 'I'm a battleship. Change course twenty degrees.'"
Back came the flashing light, "I'm a lighthouse."

We changed course."

[Artimidor Federkiel]

@Judy:

@Mina/Rayne: Yeah, that splitting up/joining issue seems a bit extreme on Rayne's map, so maybe that could be adjusted a bit here and there, e.g. if you look at the river going through the Thaelon or the one through the Bolder. These should be fed by other tributaries as well to make it look more realistic. Hope you could draw them on an own layer, Rayne!

BTW: A PSD file would be great eventually, if you could just send a file with the river layer when you're done (just get rid of other layers, save it as an own file, and send that). Because I could then just take the river layer and add it to my main map.

@Judy: Would be great if you could take the High Fores and think up some things there, especially to make it look or sound very much like a Thergerim place as far as names are concerned.

(BTW: Hope you've also seen my Resources thread update, where I tried to collect your "unfinished business" a bit. If we get something finished from that list I'd be happy as well. Maybe you see a possibility to make something happen there in the long run, so that those great pics don't just disappear in the Forum depths. )

[Rayne (Alýr)]

Oi! I should know that smaller tributaries don't split, but rather turn and flow to joining the brimming river ... ... ... for men may come and men may go but I go on forever. (Forgive me! I couldn't help myself!)

All right! Here's another attempt.

Fortunately, the Rivers/Lakes was its own layer, so not difficulty there. I've attached the full-size JPG (It's harder to see the swamps on the smaller version). I've included red dots to indicate potential castles/fortresses, though I need some input on these. I knew that, given history, there would probably be a number of castles/fortresses along the border with Enthronia, from back in the day, but otherwise just put dots in places where I would like to have my castle built.  Which may not be the best way to go about it.

I can send you the PSD file, Art, though I would like feedback to make sure I'm not entirely off-base!

[Mina]

Milkennon and the nearby parts of the mainland already have several fortresses indicated on Curgan's maps.  I'll see if I can mark them on this map. 

[Rayne (Alýr)]

That would be fantastic! I can then add them to the PSD version of my map!

I do wish that we could attach larger files to our posts, so that we might more easily share PSD files.  I suppose it might be too much stress on the servers, though...

I'm also wondering about larger temples, etc. Should these be indicated on the map? Do we have an icon that could be used for temples?

I would also like to see many north-western parts of the province relatively well-forested. Is this possible? Need I mark this on the map? I'm not entirely sure where the forests should go--and I'm not particular about location; just as long as there are lots of trees! (I do love the trees!).

[Mina]

Alright, it's done.  Mostly based on this old map and the tiny one in the Helcrani and Milkengrad entries. 

A little additional detail:
The shores around Norgammon bridge is supposedly less elevated, and large ships are blocked by the brigde. 

It might not be very clear as the straits aren't really drawn to scale, but the other 6 forts are arranged in pairs and meant to control naval access to Milkengrad.  Apotropaeon and Turacanth were shown with what looks like a chain stretched between them; it's possible that the other two pairs have something like this as well. 

[Artimidor Federkiel]

@Rayne: Larger files can be attached to posts if you ZIP them and make them smaller, Rayne (right-click on file, Send to..., Compressed ZIP Folder).

As for the rivers: They seem to have been severely cut in this version, but perhaps it isn't necessary right now to get the tiny creeks in as well. Because quite naturally I will put a hill or a smaller mountain here and there and then smaller tributaries can be added in that process. So I'd say the river map is fine now, just send me the PSD layer - or attach it here in this thread.

Larger temples: Well, the free clipart collection, which I'll primarily use to build our elements, has this interesting pic to offer. Could be used to represent temples in general. So I'd go with that one.

@Mina: Thanks for the Milkennon map, I've already moved it into my master map for further reference.

BTW: Guess it's the right time now to go ahead and put together an advanced tutorial which works as an extension to the current tutorial on the site. The two island we have at the moment should be just fine for the purpose to explain things a bit, and I can include a nice layered version of that part of the map to help beginners on their way. The library of map elements will still grow in the making of the Vardýnn map, so in the current tutorial there will still be some elements missing, but I can still add them later. So I'll start with putting together a basic version of the tutorial.

[Rayne (Alýr)]

I've sent the layers to you via email, Artimidor. Because I'm working of a mac, I don't have the same functions as a PC, and while I'm sure there is an easy way to find to zip it up, I'm a bit short on time right now!

I have made the changes to the Castles/Fortresses, per Mina's helpful map (Thank you, Mina!). I feel that the locations still aren't necessarily ideal. I'm also not sure if we should split up castles and fortresses, since I feel as though, at least for a long while, they had similar or complimentary functions such that they resembled one another very closely.

Is it possible to edit some of this clipart, Artimidor? If so, I do like this one, minus the wall and the graves.

In terms of temples.. one thing that strikes me when comparing to European history is the role of religion in governance and power. I know a lot of this is still being worked out in the history (i.e. the Clerical Age), but it might be useful to determine where the seats of religious power lie in the region, as well as their influence on the governance of the province. This might not only help with the placement of temples, but also help illuminate important aspects of the provincial governance.

[Bard Judith]

Done the High Fores area, with the rivers, roads, human, and dwarven settlements.  Some slight adjustments were made in the closeup map so humans and dwarves aren't living right on top of each other (literally) and so that roads match up with rivers, etc. etc.

In the process I discovered that Heleroth (14) has access to asbestos (Antifire Rock), or Rockwool as we call it here, through trading with the Thrumgolz Dwarves.    That should be added as a resource for the town. 

Am sending the layers to Artimidor right now - will post the JPG of the area next!

[Bard Judith]

Aaaaaand.... here we are!



Hope everyone approves of how I've put their work together.  This is, please note, a WORKING version, not in any way a finished map like Art's art....

[Mina]

Wow, that's pretty detailed.  I don't think Ahaiwana should be a hamlet though.  As far as I can tell, the five settlements are each an important holding of a Helcrani clan, which suggests something larger than a mere hamlet. 

[Rayne (Alýr)]

Updated Resource List!

I added Rockwool under "Southern High Fores," which pertains to those items that the humans trade with the Thrumgolz Dwarves. I have tried to fill out the table a bit more, but of course a lot of this was just guessing. Please let me know if something looks amiss, or let me know what you would like to add--or feel free to copy this list and add the resource yourself! Whatever's easiest!

1) Vairntin Fish (+) Crops (0) Livestock (0) 2) Phaeverton Fish (+) Jams/Jellies (+) Cheese (+) Wool (+) Cloth (0) Livestock (0) Wood Products (-) Metal (-) 3) Caeyserton Fish (+) Jams/Jellies (+) Cheese (+) Wool (+) Cloth (0) Livestock (0) Wood Products (-) Metal (-) 4) Aemyrton Fish (+) Jams/Jellies (+) Cheese (+) Wool (+) Cloth (0) Livestock (0) Wood Products (-) Metal (-) 5) Erdefra Fish (+) Livestock (0) Crops (0) [...] 6) Isgar Fish (+) Lumber (+) Crops (0) Livestock (0) Metals (-) [...] 7) Pelasgarth Crops (+) Livestock (+) [...] 8) Tyrcuron Fish (+) Livestock (0) Crops (0) Lumber (0) Metals (-) [...] 9) Argammon Fish (+) Livestock (0) Crops (0) Lumber (0) [...] 10) Deraheim Salt (+) Fish (+) Crops (+) Livestock (0) [...] 11) Herstengrad Fish (+) Crops (+) Lumber (+) Livestock (+) Horses (+) [...] 12) Arlemaroth Fish (+) Crops (+) Horses (+) Livestock (+) Metals (-) [...]

13) Ahaiwana Burning Stones (+) Iron (+) Silver (+) Gold (+) [...] 14) Heleroth Iron (+) Silver (+) Gold (+) Burning Stones (+) Livestock (0) Crops (-) Fish (-) Salt (-) [...] 15) Sostra Livestock (+) Lumber (+) Silver (+) Livestock (0) Crops (-) Fish (-) Salt (-) [...] 16) Menegula Livestock (+) Lumber (+) Silver (+) Livestock (0) Crops (-) Fish (-) Salt (-) [...] 17) Codomma Livestock (+) Lumber (+) Silver (+) Livestock (0) Crops (-) Fish (-) Salt (-) [...] 18) Vesolda Fish (+) Lumber (+) Livestock (0) Crops (0) Horses (-) [...] 19) Bosinwais Xazuran (+) Burningstones (+) Iron (+) Silver (+) Gold (+) Livestock (0) Horses (-) 20) Aberwald [...] 21) Emja Fish (+) Silkel (0) Metals (-) Horses (-) [...] 22) Aemyressa Lumber (+) Silkel (+) Crops (0) Salt (-) Metals (-) Horses (-) [...] 23) Cardos Salt (+) Silkel (+) Crops (0) Salt (-) [...] 24) Liosa Salt (+) Silkel (+) Artisan Good: Cloth (+) Crops (0) Salt (-)

A) Thyslan Crops (+) Livestock (+) Lumber (0) Metals (-) [...] B) Milkengrad Artisan Good: Pottery (+) Artisan Good: Armor (+) Artisan Good: Ships (+) Dyes (+) Livestock (0) Cotton (0) Silkworm (0) Artisan Good: Cloth (0) Crops (-) Foodstuffs (-) Fish (-) Metals (-) Lumber (-) Horses (-) C) Accam Fish (+) Lumber (0) Livestock (0) Crops (-) Horses (-) [...] D) Westhron Fish (+) Lumber (+) Metals (-) Horses (-) [...] E) Voldar Silkel (+) Lumber (+) Crops (0) Livestock (0) Salt (-) Horses (-) [...] F) Cemphiria Silkel (+) Crops (0) Livestock (0) Horses (0) Salt (-) [...] G) Salsair Fish (+) Crops (+) Livestock (+) Horses (+) Shellfish (0) Lumber (0) Artisan Good: Cloth (0) Metals (-) Dyes (-) H) Jernais Salt (+) Artisan Good: Wood Products (+) Artisan Good: Cloth (+) Crops (0) Silkel (0) Lumber (-) Cotton/Wool (-) Dyes (-) Horses (-) Goltherlon (Golgnomes) Iron (+) Coal (+) Dyes (+) Burning Stones (+) Crops (-) Salt (-) Southern High Fores (Thrumgolz Dwarves) Rockwool (+) Granite (+) Coal (+) Gold (+) Silver (+) Copper (+) Marble (+) Crops (-) Fish (-)

[Bard Judith]

As far as the dwarves are concerned, that looks great - except please add Wood (-). 

We Thergerim love making things out of wood as a counterpart to all the rock we have around us, but must almost always trade for it (only a few of our bachelors are comfortable Aboveground long enough to cut down trees, and we prefer to have humans do the work of cutting, planking, drying, etc....)  Our 'tables', 'chairs' (benches and ledges, usually), and even 'bedsteads' are carved from the living rock and well-padded, but it's nice to have some luxury items which can be moved around our household caves!  And of course smaller pieces of beautifully-grained wood are always popular for carving and whittling artworks and jewelry from...we see it as exotic...

[Artimidor Federkiel]

@Rayne: Thanks for the rivers and the swamps, they're all part of the master map now!

The temple clipart you mention can of course be integrated, Rayne - I need to rework them anyway to make them fit to our design, so we don't need walls and graves. The wall still looks quite nice, though - maybe it's of use somewhere else...

There's an interesting fortress clipart, which looks nice, so we'd have a castle pic (see new Vardýnn map on the mountains of the next island) and that fortress pic. Should work well methinks.

@Judy: Thanks for the High Fores map - looks great! We could still make Ahaiwana larger as Mina pointed out, at least it is one of the key settlements of the Helcrani. So it is likely that it has grown in the course of time. Unless there's a reason that it was reduced to a hamlet...

In general I assume that another hamlet here and there will still be added in the final map, but let's keep this for later. The most important thing is that I have a basic map to start with, then we can still see how it looks and where we'd like to add/adjust something in the final version.

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