Elemental Property Discussion

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[Rayne (Alýr)]

If we consider that there may actually be four states of matter, then things begin to fit rather nicely:
Earth = Solid
Water = Liquid
Wind = Gas
Fire = Plasma


But I'm not sure if that's how we should be really thinking about these things. Saying that the opposite of flexibility is stubbornness is sort of like saying that the opposite of mad is happy. I'm not sure it works. If you change your perspective with some of these... i.e. instead of asking: "What is the opposite of flexibility" we ask "What are two ways of responding to difficulty" the opposite of flexibility might be rage. It all depends on your perspective.


As tends to happen with magic discussion, things are getting a bit out of hand with the digressions! Your minds are all far too active. Haha! My goals for this discussion are to develop an organizational schema for elemental properties. I think before we get too far into discussions, we need to make sure we're all on the same page: I want to ask, what are YOUR goals? When this discussion is over, what do you want to have achieved?

[Deklitch Hardin]

My goal is simply to understand better than I do currently. Nothing more or less than that.

I did have an observation and a question, however.

Having spent a few days at the beach during very windy weather, I had the opportunity to observe interesting interactions between air, water, earth and to a lesser extent, fire. From what I observed, fire and water are not the only elements that oppose each other, neither are earth and air. I observed the water eating away at the sandy beaches. I saw the air whip up the water into a frenzy, and push the water around. I saw the fire eat away at the air for a while before the air in time got rid of the air inside various candle holders. That makes me wonder if the interactions between the elements that make up the Ximax Magic system is more complex than simpy fire vs water and earth vs air. Maybe that is how we can have, for example chaos vs order and so forth ... it is the way that the element of fire opposes the element that is earth?

Is something like that possible, or am I making something that is already complicated unnecessarily more complicated?

PS I know that my explanation of what I observed - fire and air for example - was rather basic and not true from an earthern point of view, but I was trying to think in terms of how people from the Disk might think about such thing.

Dek

[Ridgen Sú'ufanán]

My goals? I guess I'd want to understand this system a little (eh, who am I kidding, a LOT) more than I do now. By the end of this, I'd want to have contributed SOMETHING to this magic thing

[Rayne (Alýr)]

All right, it sounds like learning and getting familiar with the system are the main goals here. There are a number of facets of magic we could go into and achieve those goals. I feel that elemental properties is one of the most fundamental aspects of the Ximaxian magic system and yet continues to be the most confounding.

The generation of elemental properties has quickly become obfuscated by the introduction of elemental property relations--how properties effect or influence other properties. I've been wracking my brain to find an intelligible way to portray this, because lengthy collections of text only further muddle things. My solution is the chart below. I would eventually like to get something even more visual, but I feel this pushes us into a less esoteric direction.

Currently I've only put up the properties of Wind and Water, but we can begin to see how the properties relate. If anyone has any ideas concerning how to more effectively portray this information, please let me know!



WIND
EARTH
WATER
FIRE

Property	Primary Opposite	Secondary Opposites	Complement
Movement (P)	Stillness (P)	--	Fluidity (P), Chaos (P)
Lightness (P)	Heaviness (P)	--	--
Ethereality (P)	Solidity (P)	--	--
Clarity (S)	Murkiness (S)	--	--
Invisibility (P)	Opaqueness (P)	--	--
Intangible (P)	Tangible (P)	--	--
Cold (P)	Heat (P)	Ethereality (P)??	Solidity (P)
Tranquility (S)	Agitation (S)	--	--
Tranquility (S)	Agitation (S)	--	--
Fluidity (P)	Chaos (P)??	--	--
Calmness (S)	Passion (S)	--	--
Coalescence/Absorption (P)	Expansion (P)	--	--
Transformation (P)	Consumption (P)	--	--
Transformation (P)	Consumption (P)	--	--
Darkness (P)??	Light (P)	--	--

Just as a note:

The system is complex, yes, but no so complex that we can't make it visually comprehensible--and most of the complexity is fabricated because, as eloquent as we are outside of magic, suddenly in it, we all become horrendous writers (I noticed this when editing my Xeua entry). There is no reason, save for the poor communication skills of our philosopher-selves, that magic should be as complicated as it is. Argue with me, fight against me, get angry with me, but I'm officially on a crusade to make magic comprehensible. Really, it's gotten a bit ridiculous...

[Mina]

I was just thinking earlier today that maybe we don't have to map out all the relations of all the properties we have.  We could just specify the types of relations that exist (eg. that all properties have a counterpart of the opposite element) and provide enough examples that readers get the idea of how it works.  That should save us a lot of work.  Anything we aren't sure about (eg. what the counterpart of Fluidity should be) we can explain it away as something the Ximaxian magi can't agree on.  As long as some sort of skeleton is in place, we probably don't have to worry too much about details like that unless we really want to. 

Anyway, we should probably start writing short definitions for each property, like what Valan did on the first page.  That should not only reduce confusion and misunderstandings, but hopefully also help us figure out if we're missing any important properties. 

[Valan Nonesuch]

Rayne, intangibility and etherealaity would seem to overlap. But if you'd like help with writing out those property definitions, I'd love to help!

As far as your chart (nice chart by the way)

Property	Primary Opposite	Secondary Opposites	Complement
Invisibility (P)	Opaqueness (P)	--	Refraction?/Reflection?

Much like wind, water is capable of altering perception. It can make things hard to see, blocking out light, bending sight, and reflecting things around and above it. Unlike Wind, however, water does not hide things by making them impossible to see. When something is hidden by water it is still there to be seen it redirects sight, twists it one way or another, or obscures things behind one form of veil or another.

[Aos]

Hi there Just a quick note in passing to let you know that I will be away from home until Wednesday, with limited internet access.

Rayne, hun, did you get a chance to look at my comments above (those specifically relating to the properties/property names that is - such as 'calmness')?

[Mina]

Well, I gave it a try.  Does this seem alright? 
Movement (Physical)
Movement represents the state of being in motion.  While other Elemental properties might encourage or discourage motion, the motion itself is the result of expressing the property of Movement.  Thus, anything that is moving is expressing the property of Movement; the more strongly the property is expressed, the faster it moves. 

[Rayne (Alýr)]

@Valan: I would love to have your help writing definitions, Valan! I agree with Aos--it's a very good idea.

I think you're probably right about Invisibility and Ethereality... I feel like there may be places where they may not match up 100%, but a lot of the discrepancies can be solved by your idea of doing definitions of properties.

BTW: Did you want to make changes to your definition, based on recent discussion? :

Like so
Fluidity S/P
This property represents the inherent ability of water aligned objects to flow or move without being hindered by obstacles, and the flexibility inherent in the element. Water changes shape to fill the available space.
Fluidity also represents flexibility of thought, the ability to intuit, or to think "around" problems and ideas. A certain frame of mind that adapts or changes to suit the situation. Water always finds a way, be it the slow trickling of a creek as it winds its way to the sea, or the roar of a river flooding its banks.

@Aos: I was actually thinking about your idea. You're right--calmness doesn't really oppose passion... though I don't know if emotional coldness would be a quality of water or not. I try think about the race that is meant to exemplify water--Humans--and find that, in general, they aren't colder than other races. Though maybe orcs aren't passionate. Maybe the opposing quality should just be "Dispassion"?


@Mina: That looks fantastic! I love that it's short and to the point, and that it mentions degrees (i.e. "the more strongly the property is expressed, the faster it moves. ") That's such an important detail. I also like what you say about discouraging and encouraging motion--it implies connections.


I would love to just begin getting definitions for all the properties we know. I'm going to start re-arranging my first post in this thread to set-up our property-defining project (and will probably rename this thread appropriately). I encourage everyone to write definitions--including newer developers. Please make sure they're short!

[Ridgen Sú'ufanán]

Tranquility (Spiritual)
Tranquility represents composure and calm, a property expressing water's existential desire to become still. Anything expressing the property of Tranquility retains a sense of calm and composure - the calmer something is, the more it expresses the property.
_________________________________________________________

I'm not quite sure whether I'm doing this right, actually but I tried

[Deklitch Hardin]

Rayne, did you miss my most recent post? I'm not sure, but you don't seem to have addressed it at all. If I'm completely off the track, please let me know, and I won't muddy the waters here any more.

Dek

[Rayne (Alýr)]

Corgive me, Deklitch. In my attempt to bring things down to the basics I passed over a lot of questions and comments.

A Ximaxian mage standing besides when you watched such a maelstrom would, like you, see the great struggle of the elements. But he would also explain that the essential properties of wind, water, earth, and fire are in and of themselves. The wind becomes violent and chaotic because it is influenced by the chaos of fire. In the Ximaxian system, order and chaos do not exist outside of the elements, but within them.

Some elements display more 'order' or at least 'tranquility' or 'stillness' to them, while others have more 'chaos' or 'movement.' To make something more chaotic is not necessarily to turn on another piece of the fabric, but to turn on a property within an element. The properties you have describes have been "inserted" into other elements, though.

I wonder, based on your first-hand interactions--maybe you might be interested in trying you hand at the definition for chaos?

[Valan Nonesuch]

Does the Ximaxian system allow for properties to straddle both Physical and Spiritual?
Chaos, for instance, doesn't seem to be an inherently "physical" sort of idea, but can have a physical representation.

[Ridgen Sú'ufanán]

Sorry if I sound impatient, but Rayne, did you overlook my post? I just want to know whether or not I did the little description right.

[Rayne (Alýr)]

It's strange how some of my projects seem to desire a quicker pace than others.


Sorry Rigden. I wasn't ignoring you--I just wanted to respond to Deklitch before running off to my eye doctor appointment. Putting property definitions into the post takes a bit of formatting (getting the color codes right and integrating it into the coding I already have so that when we get more properties, we'll be able to navigate them intelligibly). I will try to be quicker, in the future, getting definitions up--but keep in mind that I'm only one person! I think it looks fine, and I've integrated it. As this is all still pretty rough, some of the definitions may change as we discuss and review, but I think your definition looks good.


In the Ximaxian system, I would like to try, for now, to keep spiritual and physical properties separated. If we can come up with different terms (i.e. Liquidity for physical, Fluidity for spiritual), that would be preferable. In the end, the effect is different. You get something different when you cast a physical spell than when you cast a spiritual spell. Also, for the sake of avoiding confusion, I think we should keep them separate for now.


I know there's some things I haven't responded to in this thread yet. Please be patient!



EDIT:

Aos

1) Animation: I always envisioned this as physical, but we need to define this abit more. How does this relate to motion? I always envisions animation as giving movement to things that are still. Animations is generally considered the primary property behind Necromancy, because you're brining still things to motion. I would say that the spiritual flip-side of this is "Enliven" or something similar.

2) With the new breakdown, I'll have to figure out how to integrate some of these things. I haven't moved on to listing earth and fire yet, but I will try to begin doing that tonight.

3) I'm glad you bring these up so we can discuss them a bit more!

   a. The physical side of clarity is probably ethereality/invisibility. I would like to keep physical and spiritual properties separated for now, because 1) the physical and spiritual effect are technically different (we're often using one as metaphor for the other, which is helpful for comprehension, but also dangerous if we don't make the distinction). I think if we can come up with two different terms for the physical and the spiritual, that'll help.

   b. You'll notice this on the chart, too, that I'm not so sure about the negative of "Clarity" as a spiritual property. I've added Obscurity to the chart, though we'll need to better define what that means in terms of magic, I think.

   c. I'm glad you like it!

   d. Addressed in another post. I've made the opposite of passionate "dispassion," though now I'm thinking maybe we should go with something like "apathy"--though maybe this would imply that "sympathy" is a property of fire? What would compassion be?

   e. Keep in mind that perspect has a lot to do with how we view opposite. I think I might have addressed this elsewhere (Sorry--what a disassociated mind I've had lately! ) If you view water as exhibiting the property of "order over time" (i.e. order in [temporal] motion), I would call that fluidity. The opposite of that would be "disorder over time" which I would call chaos. In this sense, they're opposites, but it really depends on your perspective.


4) Yes, there do seem to be properties that don't have a firm "opposite" quality.

   a) I think it might be better to ask which properties do not seem to have a direct opposite: these would be things like "light" (as I'm still not sure "darkness" is really a quality of water) and "stillness" (since motion, in some degree, is present in all other elements besides earth).

   b) I think your example here is a good one. The opposite to animation does seem to be stillness (i.e. earth). I would stray away from dead/lifelessness as a property, because I don't think earth is a "death" kind of element. Life is supported by all elements, earth included. Maybe we need to emend our perception of animation--that animation is motion that goes through stillness (i.e. motion that comes over something that is not in motion, the same way fire eats through earth). This would imply that perhaps there's a property (like agility) that is motion going around stillness rather than through it (like a stream that goes around a rock).

   c) There may be properties that seem to have opposites not belonging to their opposite elements, like animation and stillness, but I would like to avoid these if possible. I really think that if we can think creatively about some of these properties, we can see how they align with the properties of their opposite elements.


Before we begin to try to link properties with those that aren't their opposite, let's see if we can't find solutions through a change in perspective.

I hope this addresses some of your discussion points, Aos. Sorry that it's taken me so long to get to them. I definitely think you bring up some complex issues! Hopefully we can slowly work through them all.

I will see if I can't update the chart in terms of the missing elements that aren't there yet--namely fire and earth.

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