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Azhira Styralias
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« on: 31 July 2012, 05:14:20 »

How much of Sarvonian lore is common knowledge to the rabble peasants?

Would a farmer in Erpheronia have knowledge of Mystrans and how they work?

Would a merchant in Rahaz-Dath know about high demon lords (by name?)

Certain educated classes would have knowledge such as clerics, Ximaxian scholars etc, but when explaining a malady, would a midwife in Carmalad be able to recall a well known story about Coor and his machinations in the North?

What is generally acceptable, or is it something to consider on a case by case basis?
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #1 on: 31 July 2012, 05:36:57 »

My opinion is that most (if we are talking peasants, and "rabble") would not "know" of much outside a fifty stral diameter of their birthplace.  Most don't travel.  Now, that doesn't mean that much is not "believed".  Stories, often expanded, added to, etc, will travel faster than true knowledge.  The guy who killed 2 orcs will be a giant who slew 20 orcs or 200 by the time the the rumours fulfill themselves, for example.

But, actual fact, outside of the educated elite and the scholars of the Compendium would be hard to come by.
« Last Edit: 31 July 2012, 05:54:00 by Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin » Logged

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #2 on: 31 July 2012, 06:29:00 »

I don't know, what people know who are poor and have no time to sit down and listen to stories, but as you mentioned the Shendar, they certainly know a lot, as they sit around fires in the night and tell stories. So I think they would know the name of the demon lord, not those of lesser demons necessarily, if not a bard comes and tells them a story. So if there is a good story about a mystran, then they know about its existence. If there comes a storyteller and tells them about Osthemangar, then they know about it, otherwise not. They don't know, what a Caltharian dyer does though, that is not narrated in stories. Bars are a good place to trade stories also, but I might think, that Khalkaroth is not mentioned there.

The upper class - I assumed until now, that there are more educated people, not just clerics  and Ximaxian sholars, but a fairly broad level of educated nobles and wealthy not noble people also.
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Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #3 on: 01 August 2012, 01:13:59 »

I can tell you that in the North, I work with the opinion that tribes keep their own lore about things and know little of South lore. So any kind of lore about malefic grip or witches or demon lords are unknown to the Kuglimz, Remusians or Osther-Oc. Such maladies and curses and creatures have their own Northern specific origins.

That is why I feel that entries based in either region take into account the disparities between North and South.

Elves of the North tend to travel many places. The Injerin are a well traveled tribe and I use them to spread information. The main researcher for Caaehl'heroth is an Injerin ranger. unlike most elven tribes who stay within the confines of their forest, Injerin are spread out moreso than others.

I would think people from the South pass to the North far more often because they are wealthier and can afford to. Except Aden and Erpheronia since they are essentially connected by well traveled sea lanes. Not sure how the travel exists to Kanapan, probably alot.
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #4 on: 01 August 2012, 03:25:59 »

Yeah, it definitely also depends on the culture we're living in. Or the specific tribe. Santharia on the other hand is a united kingdom since more than 1600 years, and the Santharian Compendium is one of those efforts to spread knowledge throughout the whole country, so that people get educated. The Compendium (or parts of it, shorter versions) by now is meant to be found on many shelves of Santharian homes. So this bridges the gap between scholars and commoners in general, at least in Santharia.

There's of course also a lot of local lore, which isn't that well known outside the tribe's region. However, basic lore might spread over vast parts of Santharia, or Southern Sarvonia. So I'd say a mystran as a form of possessing spirit might be known not only to scholars, because such horror stories and superstitions travel fast. But how exactly they are named or work is more in the scholar's realm, but there would be a basic knowledge of such things I guess.

Shendar from the Rahaz-Dath, even though their religious beliefs aren't really developed, probably have their own take on the Gods. So that Demon Lords are known throughout from North to South is probably very unlikely, these specific Lords are more theological questions I'd say.

The North, the Sarvonian North, of course is another chapter. It is separated from Santharia, so there's a lot going on there hat doesn't get through to Santharia, so even if certain details would make it in the Compendium they wouldn't make it to common knowledge. So one should be careful not to assume that everyone in the whole world knows everything.

Azhira has a the right approach there and tries to logically embed things where they belong, allowing knowledge basically only where there are connections. I think that's how it should work in general, even though in Santharia the situation has a bit improved thanks to the Compendium. But we shouldn't exaggerate the knowledge that is spread that way.
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #5 on: 01 August 2012, 05:44:12 »

So a sort of abridged compendium?
Federkiel's Almanack perhaps?
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #6 on: 01 August 2012, 05:56:32 »

Quote
Shendar from the Rahaz-Dath, even though their religious beliefs aren't really developed, probably have their own take on the Gods.


No, they haven't, why should they, as they have the Darian as their ancestors? The Darian don't have other gods either, why should they be different?    *points to her entry* The importance of the gods is shifted to Baveras and Foiros, but otherwise not different from the rest of Santharia

That's one thing I don't have on my to-do list!   huh

I don't think either, that Khalkaroth is just a 'theological questions', he's too prominent to not get his own fear producing stories...

*agrees in general to what was said above*
« Last Edit: 01 August 2012, 05:59:23 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: 02 August 2012, 02:58:36 »

Federkiel's Almanack... lol

What I meant was that there probably is a historical center of where the human southern Sarvonian belief mainly came from and that tribes can interpret this rather differently. Like the Avennorians, who probably see Baveras as the most important Goddess, and the rest of them might fit in the category "also ran" (to put it bluntly). Just like in Nyermersys, the city of Death, Queprur is probably seen as the main God. This also entails a lot of practices, which are uncommon to other regions, so it all has a strong regional taint. At least I would suppose so, to make things really interesting. Would be boring if its everywhere more or less the same, with only slightly varying accentuations.

Khalkaroth: Well, what I want to avoid is that a major Demon Lord is used as a common explanation for something. He's a biggie and wouldn't be part in common lore unless there's a major reason for it. I see these guys more in the category of, say, Archangel Gabriel or something, on a cosmological level, but as nothing that would affect a commoner directly.
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Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
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« Reply #8 on: 02 August 2012, 03:18:16 »

Well, Satan was cited as the cause for ills - him or his minions - in bygone days, as I understand it.
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Shabakuk Zeborius Anfang
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« Reply #9 on: 07 August 2012, 07:52:47 »

The Compendium (or parts of it, shorter versions) by now is meant to be found on many shelves of Santharian homes. So this bridges the gap between scholars and commoners in general, at least in Santharia.
Is a significant proportion of Santharians literate, then? I had assumed that reading and writing would be the skills of a minority, similar to the situation in the European middle ages?

Anyway, even without widespread literacy, there are a number of ways in which news, tales and beliefs may travel through the land: merchants, sailors, wandering apprentices (fymbels...), bards, Butterfly Rovers ... they all travel from place to place, from town to town, and their reports reach the ears of even the most inveterate country bumpkin who never goes further than 3 strals from his front door. Myself, I imagined this to be the way in which the compendium knowledge may spread: a scholar writes, a literate thane's daughter  reads and then chats to her chamber maid, who tells the news to her uncle the sailor, who on his travels meets a sinkel merchant, who in turn sells his wares in the villages of Manthria ... How much of the original careful research makes it into the sinkel's reports, and how much is omitted, added, and distorted along the way, however, may be anyone's guess.

And I thought of another way in which Santharians might widen their horizons and get news from far-away lands: pilgrimages. Say, you are a sailor at sea caught up in a terrible storm. The sails of your ship have torn, the captain has gone mad, the rudder is broken. You raise your eyes to the ten ped wave that is about to wash over the deck and sweep you with it into the sea. You barely manage to hold on to the mast to save yourself, but you know that the next wave is already on the way. What do you do? You pray to Baveras. You promise her that, if she saves you, you will make a pilgrimage to her shrine in Strata and pay your respects, that you will donate ten sans to her priestesses there, and that your tongue shall never again taste so much as a drop of scumble as long as you live, but that only the purest water (pleasing to Baveras) shall pass your gullet... On a journey like this, a common man may see and hear and learn much, and on his return may well regale everyone in his home village with his tales of exotic lands ...

Such pilgrimages (to Christian shrines) were rather common in the European middle ages, and it was not just the aristocracy and the rich who undertook them. Churches made a veritable tourist business by claiming to have the authentic relics of this and that saint, and by charging people to see the bones...

There already are a few references to pilgrimages in official compendium entries, by the way. (For example, Nyermersys' temple of Queprur is mentioned as a destination of pilgrims).
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #10 on: 07 August 2012, 09:09:57 »

Shabby, that was how I assumed literacy was in Santh.  And that if there was a Compendium in every house, that most of them would be sitting on the bench next to the loo for TP. huh
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #11 on: 07 August 2012, 15:04:58 »

I don't think that 'many shelves'  meant 'every household'. But maybe those of the nobles, who could not necessarily read either.  And ballad-mongers were an important means of news transport, it was their business after all! :)

On the other hand, if I remember right, we thought about if not Santhran Tiandor could introduce compulsory schooling. But that would not mean, that everybody would be able to read or understand a book from the compendium, but maybe could read a little.. but we could introduce that it got fashionable to have a few books at home, but of course only the richer people could afford that and only the very rich would really spend money on books (which was effectively lost). I don't think a common baker or miller would buy a book, even if he had the money for it.

Even as many people had learnt to read in Europe, the only  books in the household were the bible , a book with religious songs and maybe a handwritten cookery book. The news had still find other ways to travel.
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« Reply #12 on: 08 August 2012, 03:25:51 »

Of course it's still mostly the way you describe, Shabakuk, but in 1672 Santharia is already a bit more advanced in terms of literacy, it's already very late in the middle ages if you so want.

There are signs of improvement of the situation everywhere, and the Compendium contributes to raising the general level of literacy. The Age of Enlightenment (Aufklärung) began after 1600 on Earth and had a lot of social revolutions in its wake, so things are slowly but surely a-changing in Santharia as well. It's important to have Santharia on the brink to something new, to avoid eternal standstill at the same level of development.

It's not that we plan to enter a mechanical/industrial age or something similar, though, inventions like pistols and cannons are still out of the question as we've discussed a while ago. But these days might be the time that inventive people dabble with things like this, only with little success. (Just so that we don't have to have all that in our fantasy environment, which is still basically at home in the middle ages.)
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