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[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

This question is mostly directed to Artimidor

I'm just about to take all these dukes and graves their right to mint their own coin away, but encounter the following problem, about we talked already, but I could find something relevant (my cold doesn't help to think clear though).

I wanted to give the big cities 12 more years to adjust to the wishes of the Santhran to give up their mints, but not the capital of the provinces, as there sits the thane with his mint.  There the old problem arose, which we have discussed already, but we need to pin it down now.

At Lysarian's time, the borders followed mostly the ancient kingdoms borders and that the changes all took place later. That the provinces of today came to be in the future wars, (Era of the Southern Wars or later?)

Ehh, no, Serpheloria was nearly gone already, Eyelia and Avennoria took over - I do not know, if something happened in the north also, have to research first... anything I missed?

I think we need a new map..

Can you point me to some entries I should read for that purpose?

First I'll try to make it a bit vague though to be able to go with the timeline. But a rough direction would be nice, finer things could be adjusted later also.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Well, I fear there's not that much on the site what you're looking for, Talia, aside from what you already mentioned as far I can see. Which is that Serpheloria exist only as the town states of Islia, Klandonia and Hog, while Eyelia and Avennoria have split there rest. Would be good of course if we'd do a schematic map of Santharia with the provincial borders of the year 0 with larger Eyelian and Avennorian territory and those town states marked.

The south seems to have joined without a problem after the defeat of a renegade Baron, that is, at least there isn't anything mentioned otherwise. The Shendars are also not really dealt with in the history, but that's probably because you had some ideas and wanted to bring them in shape later. So there's nothing concrete on the southern areas.

The North I'd say is actually the most stable part of the kingdom, simply because its the Erpheronian and later Tharian-Erpheronian coreland, which comprises former Centorauria, Kyrania and Caltharia, so the initial provincial borders could have pretty much reverted to the Tharian borders, maybe with a few changes here and there for unclear reasons to make things a bit more realistic.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Oh thanks, that helps nevertheless.

Maybe I formulate the currency change fairly vague and try to think of some revolts later, which we always can add. I thought about, if it would be possible to bite a bit out of the Stratanian kingdom already now for a first step to the later Truban/Brendulan. Let's see

I want to get into painting again, maybe a map is a good start. Later!

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

More questions:

Reading the Thar entry I thought, that Kyrania and Caltharia joined Tharania also, but in the History tables it is not clearly mentioned.

Is Thar's first son his successor, and continues the line up to Marzevash (somehow, not necessarily directly), continues Tharania up to the time of Santhros with the former old kingdoms being dutchies of Tharania, Tharania on the whole a province? Or does Kyrania vanish in this time (haven't read the Kyrania entry yet)

I didn't expect to dig up such a wop's nest!

[Artimidor Federkiel]

The following event...

Foundation and Expansion of Tharania
Thar, the strongest Erpheronian king so far, manages to eventually unite all four northernmost tribes of the southern Sarvonian continent - the Erpheronians, the Centoraurians, the Kyranians and the Caltharians. The main reason for the willingness of the tribes to subdue themselves to the powerful Erpheronians peacefully was the urging need for support concerning the reconstruction of their destroyed lands. A new era has begun, a major cornerstone to what later on should become the United Realms of Santharia, stretching over the whole of the southern Sarvonian continent.

...is found in the History tables of these entries:

Caltharian Men; Centoraurian Men ("Aurora Plain Tribe"); Erpheronian Men ("Proudmen"); Kyranian Men ("Simple-Folk"); Tharania, Kingdom.

Could still be added to the Thar entry as well to make that perfectly clear. 

Old king as duchies, yes, I'd say so. I assume the position of Tharian king is still hereditary as well, the changes in the system take place at Santharian times later.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

 I bet you have added this only this afternoon! 

Maybe I have been distracted by that entry:

481 b.S.    The Founding of Tharania

As you said a long time ago - in the complete history all is contained? For I take normally this, so I don't miss something.

In the timetable of : Continent - Sarvoia South Lysarian and his predecessors are not yet mentioned, but don't hurry, when more is coming.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

In the Caelerethian History entry every event is mentioned, yup. If it's not there, then it's not in our history database. There are still a few things things that aren't there, which you'll recognize when the history table has an old format. These still need to be converted, but there are only a few left now.

[Mina]

Thar's entry has some details about the founding of Tharania:

First, in 492 b.S., Thar, who was already the king of Centorauria at the time, took the throne of Erpheronia, and people start calling the combined realms "Tharania".  In 483 b.S., Ximax, who was independent of Centorauria at the time, applies to join Tharania.  This causes the Kyranians to overthrow their unpopular king and ask to join Tharania too.  Then, the Caltharian king, who had mostly lost control over his nobles, decides to hand his kingdom over to Thar in exchange for retaining enough estates to live a comfortable life.  By 482 b.S., Thar had accepted these offers and Tharania was officially founded. 

Regarding Tharania's internal divisions, I think it would make sense for Centorauria, Erpheronia, Ximax, Kyrania, and Caltharia to all remain distinct entities in the kingdom, whether as provinces or as kingdoms under some kind of personal union arrangement.  Maybe some border changes can be made, if future dev work makes it necessary, but right now there's probably no need to further complicate things. 

As for old kings becoming dukes, assuming you mean those of the kingdoms that became Tharania, that might be a bit complicated.  Thar was simultaneously king of Centorauria and Erpheronia when Tharania was founded, so they didn't really change kings.  Ximax I'd say was a republic before that, so they don't have a former king either.  The former Caltharian king probably retains some kind of position, given the deal he made with Thar, so making him a duke might work.  As for Kyrania, the former king was killed in the revolt.  My plans for Xaramon also assume that by the time Xaramon was formed, the former Kyranian king's descendents, if there were any left, were not of high enough rank to automatically be chosen as thane, so it'd be great if you don't make them too powerful. 

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Hey thanks for the input Mina!

I had read Thar's entry, but did not see the corresponding post in the history table and I'm sure, Art added it only yesterday afternoon. Ha!

What would you think, how have these kingdom-provinces developed , how did they look, who was where in power with which title, when Santhros ascended the throne? From there on not much might have changed till Lysarian.

Epheronia and Centotauria where quite big, has there been somebody who took the position of the former kings (looking after the business of each former kingdom) OR was this vacant and the next lower level the dutchies? So Erpheronia, Centorauria and the others had no seperated ....  administrative departement/finacial management?

I'm still thinking who might have been opposed to an unification of the currency and revolted....

I thought, that maybe Thar has already started with a similar idea, maybe introducing a silvercoin (name: the thar) which was valid in every place in Tharania, without much changing the right to mint.

Mina? Ideas?

[Grunok the Exile]

Not sure if this would be at all helpful, but I have posted ages ago here, some maps of Serphelorian territory over the years.  If you download them you can flick trough them and see the changes over time    They correspond to what I wrote for the Serphelorians, so they're canonical for what's on site (or rather what was on site when I was last writing - I'm not sure what ever came of Nsiki and his Eyelian adventures - I think he was contradicting stuff I wrote last time I looked at his stuff, so  you may need to take that into account).

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

OH, welcome back, Grunoc!

And thanks a lot for the maps! I think I'll do something with them!

[Mina]

What would you think, how have these kingdom-provinces developed , how did they look, who was where in power with which title, when Santhros ascended the throne? From there on not much might have changed till Lysarian.

Hmm, it's not something I've really thought about.  I don't remember any historical events that would result in those borders being changed.  It's probably alright to leave it vague for now. 

Epheronia and Centotauria where quite big, has there been somebody who took the position of the former kings (looking after the business of each former kingdom) OR was this vacant and the next lower level the dutchies? So Erpheronia, Centorauria and the others had no seperated ....  administrative departement/finacial management?

Well, it depends on how necessary it is to have a king managing such things.  Unfortunately, it's not something I've really read up on, so I'm mostly going to be guessing.  A more decentralised kingdom might have most of their administration done at a more local level, so there might not be much a king needs to do anyway, I think.  And for more centralised kingdoms, I think the king probably isn't the only one managing everything, and there would probably be bureaucrats and such who can handle most of the actual administrative work, only needing the king for things like approving new laws or making important decisions. 

Regarding the specific kingdoms, Erpheronia has the Council of Voldar.  They're only supposed to be advisory, but perhaps things can be different in practice.  Ximax already has its own government; joining Tharania, I think, shouldn't change much other than that they now have a king they need to answer to, so I think it fits into what I said above about a centralised administration.  I'm not very sure about Centorauria, but Thar's wife Curogana was the ruler before him, and might still be some kind of co-ruler; I don't know what Curgan intended.  I don't know much about Caltharia and Kyrania either, but it might be worth noting that before joining Tharania, the kings of both kingdoms had lost much of their power to the nobles. 

I'm still thinking who might have been opposed to an unification of the currency and revolted....

Hmm, a revolt?  What are your plans so far? 

I thought, that maybe Thar has already started with a similar idea, maybe introducing a silvercoin (name: the thar) which was valid in every place in Tharania, without much changing the right to mint.

Mina? Ideas?

Well, the government probably could force people to accept it as payment for goods and services the government is purchasing, but how much people would use the coins amongst themselves might depend on other factors.  In any case, having the government adopt a policy of paying for certain things using the new coins seems like a reasonable way to get them into circulation, and probably shouldn't make anyone upset unless the value of the coins are lower than what the government is trying to exchange them for.  Keeping the value (in this case, the amount of silver it contains) stable would probably help to keep the coins circulating by not giving any reason for people to stockpile or get rid of the coins.  Requiring that certain taxes be paid with the new coin, or giving preferential treatment to those that do so, might help the new coin be adopted by the people more quickly, since there is now something they need it for, but it will probably also annoy them. 

Don't really have any more ideas for now, although I think calling it the Thar sounds a little unimaginative.  Well, if there is a justification for it (eg. if it has an image of Thar on it), it could work.  I had a look at the etymologies of the names of various real coins, and if you go back far enough, it seems they're all pretty unimaginative.  Maybe it's some kind of nickname. 

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Thanks a lot, Mina!

Well, I have no plans yet, I just thought, that introducing the new currency was surely not an easy thing, taking the minting right away from a lot of people. So there had to be some opposition. I don't know yet, how Lysarian could have bribed his people to accept it.

But I will leave this for now and say quite vaguely, that he introduced it, but that it did take xxx years until it was finally accepted. The only idea which might not work is following: I thought , that introducing the new currency AND allowing the old one to be still in use would help, but then every little mint can go on with producing and if they are not caught while doing it, nobody can say, if a coin is older or freshly minted.

Well, I leave this problem for later.

[Mina]

Ah, so you're talking about Lysarian's reforms.  Well, I think knowing why he wanted to introduce the new currency would help in figuring out what sort of opposition he might face, and whether it would be necessary to force people to stop minting the old currencies. 

Maybe it would be useful to look at some real life examples.  Unfortunately, I can't really think of any good ones. 

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