Population in Sarvonia and how many magic using people.

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[Ryldor Gadriel]

I tried a search and couldn't really find a definitive answer.

1) How many 'people' live in Sarvonia? 10 million? 50? 100? 500?

2) How many mages are there?

2b) How many self taught/informally taught (father teaching his kids, for example) would there be?

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Well...

1) First of all: "Sarvonia" is a whole continent and huge territory, large parts of it not populated etc. I guess you probably wanted to know how many people live in "Santharia", which is the most populated kingdom there. And the answer there would most likely be way, way below 5 million. You cannot compare today's numbers with the numbers with ages comparable to medieval times. If you look e.g. at the Manthrian Overview you see the numbers of inhabitants listed there. A metropolis is defined as 25.000+ inhabitants, and one of the largest metropolises of Santharia is Marcogg with ca. 40.000 inhabitants.

2) I would say a couple of thousands throughout the kingdom. Many elves however have natural magical abilities, so I would exclude them entirely from that count. So this is a human number.

2b) I don't think that there really is much "self taught" magic in Santharia, and definitely no father teaching kids any kind of magic. Basically there are "gifted" people, but these are rare and it's not that such a gift would be inherited to the next generation e.g. - these are exceptions, and even if you are gifted you might not be able to handle your gift. If you're not discovered by the Academy or find a proper alternative teacher your gift might go to waste entirely.

[Ryldor Gadriel]

1) Ah. The one thread I did find had numbers like 300 million in it.

2 + 2b) Booo. (Kinda wrecks my idea)

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

4,684,426

4,684,425 if Lassie can't manage to get Timmy out of that darn well again.

Mages... too many, but the Remusians are actively trying to change that number. 

[Mina]

Less than 5 million in Santharia?  I'm pretty sure much smaller countries in real life had more people than that.  China in the 1400s, which I think was of a comparable size, had a population of 60 million or more, IIRC. 

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Don't know about China, but we based our estimations on typical European middle age circumstances.

[Mina]

Where are you getting your numbers from?  A quick check on Wikipedia seems to confirm that 5 million is way too low. 

From the Medieval Demography entry:

In 1328, France (which was geographically smaller than it is today) is believed to have supported between 13.4 million people and 18 to 20 million people, the latter not reached again until the early modern period.

And considering the size of Santharia, we should probably be comparing it with Europe as a whole, not any single country alone.  Here's the closest figure I can find on the page:

Overall, the population of Europe is believed to have reached a peak of 100 to 120 million.

That's before the Black Death, which did kill off a lot of people, but not to the extent of dropping the population below 5 million. 

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

Art, I think I'd have to agree with Mina.  The Fordham University site puts Europe circa 1000 AD at 38.5 mil, and again at 1340 AD at 73.5 mil.  I was surprised at that many people to be quite honest.  I would have suspected much lower.

One thing I did notice however, is our maps have a lot of communities.  Maybe it is deceiving in the scale, but it really feels like the Vardynn map that I'm studying and using on the RP side, that there is a village around every corner.  (Not a criticism, I love the map )

Maybe a Santh census should be taken, where someone gathers all the populations already posted and each new entry must have a population named and added into the running total, at least then we could make a reasonable guestimate.  Admittedly, this is more for abstract knowledge than any real need for a hard and true population number.  No one in the Santh world would have any idea how many people there were.

[Mina]

One thing I did notice however, is our maps have a lot of communities.  Maybe it is deceiving in the scale, but it really feels like the Vardynn map that I'm studying and using on the RP side, that there is a village around every corner.  (Not a criticism, I love the map )

Actually, there probably aren't enough communities on the current maps.  They're drawn much larger than they really are, which makes the whole region look smaller and locations closer together.  As far as I know, arable land usually have settlements located 20km or so from each other, assuming nothing impeding travel.  Most on the map are located much further apart.  I assume that there are plenty of villages in the empty but arable areas that are just too insignificant to appear on the map. 

No one in the Santh world would have any idea how many people there were.

It's not too implausible for a medieval kingdom to conduct a census.  Look at the Domesday Book, for example. 

[Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin]

I wasn't suggesting there were too many, just that there are a lot if the population is estimated to be 5 mil.  A continent of 5 mil shouldn't have that many communities.  I was pointing it out to bolster the heavier population argument.

The Domesday book is relegated to a fairly small area, England and Wales, that was fairly civilized.  They didn't have the added complication of reclusive races such as dwarves and elves.  

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Well, I recall some discussion and also remember the Domesday book, so I searched for a thread where we've mentioned that. Because we made various decisions on what we found there.

See here, specifically my second post on this page - there's a link to a Domesday book site, and in the thread I quoted the following from that page:

Big cities range from 12,000-100,000 people. Some exceptional cities exceed this scale. Some historical examples include London (25,000-40,000), Paris (50,000-80,000), Genoa (75,000-100,000), and Venice (100,000+). Moscow in the 15th century had a population in excess of 200,000!

Quick checks seem to confirm that these numbers are fairly accurate for a time around or prior to the 15th century.

Marcogg's size for example and subsequent town, village etc. sizes were based on these assumptions. So if major cities didn't have millions of inhabitants in the 15th century, I'm not sure where people lived so that we'd reach 50 or 75 millions all in all... Maybe we in Santharia don't have that many larger cities as was the case in Europe at this time? 

[Mina]

Most people in the Middle Ages would have lived in rural areas, not in cities. 

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Hmm, yeah, that may be - apparently these numbers make up the millions... Which would mean: The sizes of our cities are ok, however we don't have that many smaller settlements on our map. Yet we need to compromise there a bit to make the maps look not too cluttered.

[Ryldor Gadriel]

Well my idea was for a society of mages who might allegedly engage in criminal activities or other reckless endeavors for profit or fun. With 'only' 2000 mages, there certainly wouldn't be enough of a pool to draw from. 1% is only 20 people. Not really a society.

So even if the population Arti gave is smaller than it should be, how close is the number of mages?

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Well, becoming a proper mage isn't an easy feat, so if someone can manage that, he's not very likely to turn criminal just for the fun of it. That might be different for mages that fail to become more than mage-wannabes. These might drop out of their studies in Ximax and use their minimal abilities for crimes...

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