The World of Caelereth

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[Capher]

@Smith- In the beginning I was too was at a loss of how water stayed upon the planet as well as other things when you consider that Caelereth is a "disk" shaped mass. But when you take into the account of the darkwinds I realized that the winds themselves blew the water continually back from where they started from. I doubt if a man could go from one part of the world to the other by trying to either walk it or sail it.  Because the boundries set up by the "Void" walking, or the winds, sailing would prevent it.  And I do think we need to have a "physical descriptions of Caelereth, moon, sun, stars, etc, etc.  Otherwise how would scientists explain the phenomenon(s) that that they see and observe?

These are just my .002 worth of opinons.  I leave the technical jargon up to the Santharian Astrophysicist, Talia  

Capher.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

*sigh*

Please don't think in terms of earthen physical laws. If we say, gravitation is strong enough to counter the movement of a few waves, then the water will just stay were it is, the way I defined gravity (with earthen laws it would accumulate in the center of the disk anyway). And if we like, we will let it fall around the disk, as we are pleased!

Please don't distract with things not necessary to discuss here and now, the netherworld and void will get its room soon. First things first, otherwise I will get old till we are finished with only the first thing.Or we have to open new threads for people to post their ideas there.

@ Capher: that is no Astrophysics, just simple Astronomy  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 1/19/04 20:27

[Smith in Exile]

I disagree with you, Talia. Because what you are doing here is just another Carpa'dosia. And this is, of course, not something wrong, actually it could be the basis for a very nice writing about the sarvonian humans' cosmology - but not facts about Caelereth. And my problem would be that since you all have decided that Carpa'dosia is just an elven myth I can't understand why you don't want to stay true to that decision.

Stating that the world is a disk, and the sun is a fireball reflecting in the void to generate a moon, or anything else similar (in form) is a step too big to be made here. The problem was that "list of facts" not a new cosmology (as we already have one in Carpa'dosia). What one could perceive having the world of Caelereth as a point of reference, not how the things really are, these are the "facts". Anything else is just another story/myth. Also, I don't believe that by following this path we would end up necessarily by having the "same boring world" - it all depends on our imagination actually. Also I don't think we would have controversies, as long as the facts-requirements are fulfilled, one can write about any interpretation/myth/cosmology/whatever allowed by imagination.

So this discussion should be quite simple actually (it's only about a list of things, or principles), as we should proceed to the more complicated matters of history.


PS: @Capher: that was just an idea - and what you mentioned could be one of these "facts" (but without the explanation)

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Smith, your "facts" would have to be so numerous, that it would take quite a long time to finish them - and new "facts" would come up later. I don't see that we create a new myth, we set some simple things, which can be interpreted manifoldly.
What is that what you want? The moon, f.e. You want to know, when does he rise at a given day, and what phase will he show, how does he look like .As a fact. To be able to describe something which makes sense, I have to assume a body behind it anyway and I can then show the reason behind the appearance, which are the Santharians able to detect, though their interpretations might not be correct. Why should I give up the body behind it and just deliver a list of dates you can look up? And describe with long sentences how the phases change without saying , that I have a twocoloured body there?An impossible task.


Now I could of course make up anything and say, this is my fact now, though it would make much more work. But then I can add any "fact" later I wish to add. If I have a real body behind it, I know, what it reasonable to add, and what not, f.e. how a red moon could occur. Apart from that it satisfies me much more to have a atleast basically right model behind it, even if I did the laws for myself. The effect is the same for you, you have the appearance as you want to have it. I can't do an appearance so "wischy-waschy" just to have all options open for a later time.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Completely agree, Talia  

Though I don't know if "wischy-waschy" is proper English I hope the meaning comes across.

I have to admit that I initially thought as well that it would be possible the way Smith tried to put it, but it really isn't if you dig deeper - and this we did lately, Talia. And I guess we got already very far with our concepts, which provide ample space for completely different interpretations by observation of the appearances only. But it's essential to have more than just the appearance only from the world designer's point of view. We don't have all the explanations, but we now have the backbone, and this is very important to make things realistically possible and not just random.

The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 1/20/04 10:55

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

@ Art: my attempt to enrichen the English language with more than Kindergarten, Sauerkraut and Waldsterben  .


Model Sun-Disk-Moon:

A rough sketch only,  to inform you.

We agreed yesterday about following „working“ model:

The sun circles  in front of Caelereth , I chose zero distance now for summer , 2 for autumn/spring, 4 for winter and a disk diameter of 2 Caels, an orbit diameter of 8 Caels.

The new thing:

We placed the moon on the other side of the disk, distance 2 Cael from the northern rim. The moon is as big as the sun, both in appearance a bit bigger than our heavenly bodies.

Its orbit is parallel to that of the sun and as big as that of the sun.



You look here in fig 1 at the construction you know already from above, fig two is the new one with the orbit of the moon on the left side. Imagine again, you are floating in the emptiness, looking at the system from the side. The green disk is Caelereth and you are looking on its west rim. The three right lines represent the circles of the sun, seen from the side, the left that of the moon.




The moon has now a brilliant, selfluminiscent side and a dark absorbent side, out of an „unknown“ material. Its orbital speed is a bit bigger than that of the sun, that results in different visibility times (have to play around with it still). It is rotating, so we have phases at different times as well (same here, need some time to determine the length of the month, so it fits best.)



What I can‘t draw this easily is following we came up with.

The sun and the moon are of the same size, thus appear to be of the same size - when their distance from the disk (we take the middle of the disk now) is the same. When the sun approaches in summer, its disk image gets bigger(it appears bigger to the people) than the moon, in winter it is the other way round - it gets smaller than that of the moon.  However, that was nicely thought out yesterday, but it is not as easy as this. What I just stated, applies only to the centre of the disk or better the line through Caelereth parallel to the planes of sun and moon, when I use the above sizes.

Look at this: Equal length of the lines mean equally big looking sun and moon:



If I look at Aeruillin or in the far north, things are slightly different:
In Aeruillin the sun will always be bigger than the moon, but in winter, the moon reaches the size oof the sun.
In the far north, the moon will always be bigger than the sun, but the sun reaches his size in high summer (for only a few or less days).

Interesting, isn‘t it? The source for different myths!

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 1/20/04 12:36

[Capher]

Say Art what did you think of the StarTrek movie and does the universe void in that movie kind of look like what you envisioned our void to be?

Capher.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Thanx again for the illustrations, Talia!

@Capher: Concerning the movie itself: Well, sure it is the weakest Star Trek movie concerning especially the conculsion of the plot ("God" shooting at Spock and Kirk, "God" showing up as an old, bearded white-haired man - not very creative...) The end is really completely foreseeable and thus not very inventive. - The DVD special at least show that much more was intended than actually came out, e.g. that it was planned to give the whole conclusion a better philosophical component and that the end therefore should have more resembled Dante's Inferno... But they basically ran out of money... I still like the comical aspects in this movie, which exceed many other movies... Spock's scfi-marshmellow roasting and his studying on the matter of "camping out", Uhura's desert dance and the scene where Kchekov and Sulu get lost in the woods are exceptionally funny. Quote: Sulu to the communicator: "We... uhmmm... we can't get to these coordinates! It's just impossible! There's a huge snowstorm in this whole area! Impossible!" Kchekov makes blowing noises into the communicator... Uhura (from the ship, looking at the controls): "Hmmm... The computer says: Bright sunshine 25 degrees..." Kchekov eyes Sulu and stops blowing: "Uhm... Oh!"  

Well, concerning the barrier: The barrier itself (located just somewhere in space) was too much of a barrier in the movie. It was designed as something very hard to penentrate, and it was bascially made up of  explosion-like pulsating clouds in various colors and a net of lightnings. So the barrier itself probably isn't that useful.

However, once the ship penetrated the barrier, the next interesting thing which had to be designed was the planet where "God lived" and of course this had to be special. This one looked more interesting from my point of view in our Void respect, cause the planet was surrounded by some sort of fog. The fog probably was actually cigarette smoke I assume, cause it had precisely these properties: It was a blue and it was slowly moving and this looked pretty spectactular and somewhat eerie and mysterious, very atmosopheric. So this might serve as suggestion perhaps for the Void transgression.

I would have liked to make a screenshot and post it, but though I can manage screenshots of videos, I can't do DVD captures for some reason.

The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 1/20/04 22:11

[Capher]

Art, you should be a movie critic   But I agree with you StarTrek V was not the best of them.  Actually I think I enjoyed IV better.  Anyway I see your point of the barrier, it probably would not suit our needs.  But the mist surrounding the "God" planet I had not thought of until you mentioned it. That would be a good idea, maybe?   Kind of reminds of Venus, with its gaseous vapor that surrounds the planet and does not allow anyone to see beyond into the atmosphere.

Hey! do you think that there really could be Venutian, scantily clad women ruling that planet?  

Capher.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Well, I wouldn't mind having some scantly glad women, maybbe Artemis implemts some down there in the hot region of Aeruillin...

Anyway, I would like to mention in this context that Talia and I also discussed quite a bit concerning distances in Santharia lately, which is also important for the Caelereth entry. See this thread where Talia layed out out the problem and did some distances calculation.

After several calculations we came up with a final proposal to reduce the prior 7500 km (stral) size of Santharia to 5000. This is the distance from Strata to Dragon's Maw. We tried to cut down the size (whole South America size for one kingdom was indeed quite large) while still keeping it realistic to have large forests where whole elven tribes can develop. You can try measuring distances yourself and see if this looks ok with you.

If there are no major objections, we'll treat these new measurement definitions as facts from now on and we'll see to adjust the measurement proportions in already existing maps. With the proper size we can also start calculating the amount of inhabitants and villages by using the proper parameters at a calculator like this one e.g.

The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

[Capher]

Hey Art that calculator is cool.  So then with that we can decide how much of a popluation Caelereth can sustain or how much can go into cities?  What about population of those in the forests, like the elves?  Would'nt they be different?  As well as the Dwarves, as most of them live underground?  Should we think about how deep Caelereth is?  I mean does Caelereth have a core or something?

I can see a huge amount of possibilites with these facts coming out, such as:  Tribal sizes depending upon food, building material, location, etc, would have to amended.  It would also explain a lot about wars and such as well;  Needing more land, resources, that sort of stuff.

Also I was thinking as Caelereth shrinks in size it would be easier to go from one place to another.  It would take maybe days instead of months to travel, would it not?

Capher.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Yes, distances between towns would be shorter, but the sizes for the forests and the Rahaz-Dath would shrink as well, and that would be not good.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

[Capher]

How come Talia?  Just because it is smaller it can still be a dangerous place to be.  I think of all of the smaller people I have met and even smaller places.  They were much dangerous than I gave them credit for.  Including women!  

Capher.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

No, Capher, I need enough room for all the things I want to put in there, and the forests need to be big enough to serve as habitat.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 1/22/04 21:46

[Capher]

Oh   I should have thought of that.

I give praise to our Santharian Astrophysicts  

Capher.

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