The World of Caelereth

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World Map Overview
Distances in Caelereth
Climate Map of Sarvonia
Continent: Aeruillin
Continent: Akdor
Continent: Cyhalloi
Continent: Nybelmar
Continent: +Details NE
Continent: +Details NW
Continent: +Details SE
Continent: +Details SW
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Lands: Kuglim Lands
Kingdom: Santharia
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Linda Tso Pictures
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Quellion Pictures II
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Proverbs & Sayings
Styrásh (Elvish)
Thergerim (Dwarvish)
Kuglimz'Seitre
Kh'omchr'om (Orcish)
Trollish

[Koldar Mondrakken]

btw: What's the Etherial Void beside being a strange place? How does it look like? Why do you see the sun through it, when you can see through it by standard what is there on the world plane(does the world continue endlessly? As the Etherial Void is between the sun and the world we get some trouble defining any relative positions without knowing what the etherial void will do to any of our observations.

@Art: The reference point in the pictures is currently not Caelereth, that's why I asked about it. Currently it seems to be a plane on a square angel to the course of the sun that goes right through the center of the Caelerth plane however because of the tilting is not equal to the Caelereth plane. Sounds complicate? Don't know, I think it does.

I've no problems with any general things but some explanations still seem very foggy to me.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

[Smith in Exile]

Well, I honestly can't say the discussion is not fascinating, or Talia's drawings and interpretations (I actually love this kind of things ). But I don't think this is what we wanted to decide upon here. Actually Arti signaled this here in his latest post, but even him seems to be a bit in a fog  (just as me reading this lol)

Darkwinds? Etherial Void? Aren't these supposed to be original elven mythical concepts? And if we have decided that the elven mythology does not represents the "truth" of this world why are we using them in this discussion?

Things should be a lot more simple. The point of reference is obviously the earth/the world of Caelereth (a disk in a sarvonian view, but maybe a cube for some other folks - this is not an idea, just a possible example). So it's up to us now to decide what's there to be seen from this point of reference.
- Not how the seasons could be explained, but how many are they, and where do they occur.
- Not how the differences of temperature are produced, but where do they happen.
- Not how the sun is moving around reflecting a moon, but wether do we have a sun (duh... lol) or a moon, what is their appearance and how are they alternating if they do? (does the sun moves from east to west? is it rising from beyond the horizon? are there differences in the lenght of a day during a year?)
- Are there any regular winds or sea currents? (names could help)

Yet I know, the temptation to create a fantastical explanation is high, as we are the developers right?  But we should refrain ourselves from doing that just to put in order that "list of facts". The Sarvonian timeline is discussed here, nevertheless, and these interpretations could fit perfectly in Sarvonia, but not in this thread. Here we wanted to talk generally, right? I mean, all these things told here until now, cannot help me, for instance, to do stuff in Nybelmar, since you agreed upon the fact that Carpa'dosia is a myth among the others...



PS: ...uhm and some more particular thoughts... eyelids for some Aeruillin tribes and larger eyes for northerners seems quite cool, but I don't think is such a good idea to extend these extreme environments to such large areas. The differences that result from that are quite important and they could prevent a certain free circulation necessary for something like an rpg (for instance). One of the reasons for which we call them "extreme", I guess (because they are rare)...

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Smith, I think you are wrong here. When talking about, that we need some "facts", it was the question, which parts of the original elven myth we want to have as "facts", valid for everybody. And there were a few of these early ideas Art had, as the disk, the sun circling in front of it, the void, the darkwinds, maybe even the tree of life. So these "facts" are valid for the whole of Caelereth

Why I try to do some of these graphics, is, that even if we have to abandon the law of physics as we know it, the construction should not be total unbelievable. If we just "define" what we want to have, we could do everything, like saying it is colder, if you are nearer at the sun.
So I try to do the things a little reasonable, knowing that I redefine the laws of physics or neglecting them as I like. It is more an attempt to construct something reasonable, so that a totally illiterate (and therefore not spoiled) person would say: Yes, the sun is warm and heats things up, therefore it has to be warmer in the south than in the north, or: when the warming sun is farer away from the world it is colder(=winter). Because it is more correct to have an equally long day on a disk in every region, I would prefer this, but if we want to have a different daylength, then we say just: the daylength varies.

To the special features: I didn't say all tribes of Aeruillin could have these special things like the eyelids, I said very clearly: the extreme south, and a bit more of the north. And while developing I don't think what would be good for the RPG board, that doesn't interest me at all in this moment. I'm doing NOTHING for the RPG board and would not miss it from the developers side - as RPer of course. Additional I think, such things would make it even more interesting, different from all others RPGs of this kind, more challenging. Nobody is forced to create an char who has to run around with a sun protection over his eyes all day.

How many seasons? that is explained. The modell defines, that it gets gradually warmer in summer and colder in winter,that it is hot in the south, becuase the south is nearer to the sun and colder in the north, because it is farer away. How hot it will be in Aeruillin have the developers to decide, or how cold it will be in the north. How many seasons you define is up to you and your tribe - you can have two8summer , winter), you can have four(summer, autumn, winter, spring), you can have eight as well, if you finsd some names for the timesspans between winter and spring...and so on.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 1/15/04 13:24

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

*sigh* OK, a next try.

Koldar,you are thinking too much.


A preliminary note: Physicists try to make their life easy. Therefore they are working with something called „approximation“ or talking about „as a first approximation“ or even of a „zero approximation“ (0. Näherung). That means you are neglecting additional facts till the point where the danger is great, that it will be wrong. But the problem is easy to solve then, and once solved, you can add more factors and go on to higher degrees of the „aproximation“ (the higher the closer to solving the actual problem with all its implications). That is what I try here, neglecting things which make it difficult, they can be considered later. So for this case, I don‘t look now, what f.e. the  void does with the celestial bodies, we will - define , decide - this later


Facts

And the creator of this universe spoke, there shall be a disk where the people live on and the sun shall circle in front of, moving away and back to create seasons. .....And thus it came into being.

Caelereth is located on one side of a disk which side we will call „on top“ from now on. Its thickness is very small compared to its flat side.

In front of this disk, seen from the edge,  the sun is circling, away and back to create seasons, the side nearer to the sun is called the south. The disk does not rotate in respect to the sun.

The disk itself is centered in a hollow sphere of unknown character called the Void . The „material“ disk ends about where the void begins. The void is expanding outwards, but with no impact on any objects there.(for now)

Point of reference

The disk is the point of reference - the NOT moving part, except when stated otherwise for an easier comprehension. That does not mean, that the observer sits in this point of reference!

Assumptions/ Neglections:

There exists no gravity except the one working on the disk itself. The gravity there is  causing all objects to fall down vertically to the soil (attracting all objects in a way, that they are falling vertically to the ground) in every place on this disk.

The sun is an massless orb of unknown size (well, not as big as Caelereth) of selfconsuming fire.

The void is hollow sphere (or even shell to make it easier for now) around this disk, described as in facts. It allows the penetration of radiation (heat and light) in every direction, its other properties are not known, it has (for now) no effects on celestial bodies.

The darkwinds(whatever they are) are only blowing inside the Void.

The inclinations of the sun-orbit (the  plane the orbit of the sun defines)  due to its progression away from the disk are neglected. It is like the plane would jump from day to day a bit farer away.

The model

The plane of the disk stands vertical on the plane, which  the orbit of the sun defines when moving around one time, at the time of its nearest approach to the disk (from now on sun-orbit ). The point of the disk which is the nearest to the plane  of the sun-orbit (or touches it)is defined as south.

On the following sketch you are looking at the whole system from the side, so that the sun-orbit appears as a single line only. You are looking onto the western rim of Caelereth.



Here the same two models, but seen from top, you are looking from a great distance on Caelereth and the sun-orbit appears again only as a line. The sun is located at the most eastern point, just starting to rise over the disk.



Here you look directly, vertical onto the sunorbit, seeing the full diameter, looking on the edge of the disk from north.




I hope it is clearer now, I will add the Iceage things later.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 1/15/04 16:28

[Koldar Mondrakken]

I think to rid the world of all thinsg elven, err... off elven  mythology we can ignore the Darkwinds. They're behind the Etherial Void, thus not touchable and also invisible (or black or whatever) thus not visible.

The Etherial Void though is an occurence recognizable by anyone capable to travel to one of its borders thus it'd need an explanation.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Ermm,....I thought  the darkwinds are inside the void, or the border between void and Caelereth, blowing partly in the void towards the shy of the world.


To the inclination producing an „iceage“

There are two possibilities:

Example 1:

I reduce the point of reference(the fixed point) to the very centre of the disk. This allows me to move the disk without loosing this reference point.

The disk rotates in this example slightly forth and back in a small angle around an axis through its centre parallel to the plane of the sun-orbit.


Example 2:

The disk itself is fixed as in the above describes cases, the plane of the sun orbit rotates slightly forth and back around a line through its centre, which is parallel to the plane of the disk. The plane of the disk touches this line in one point in one of the above examples (well, not really in this drawing, I should have moved the green disk more towards the plane of the sun)

Example 3:

Change of the point of reference, but the same movement as in example 2 : The plane of the sun-orbit is fixed now, the disk is moving slightly up and down.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Many thanx for these detailed sketches, Talia

@Koldar: I completely agree that the darkwinds aren't really necessary at all for the general world facts. It is important to keep the world facts general so that other cultures can interpret them as well in their own way, whatever that is. Nevertheless I think that it is extremely helpful to have a main explanation already at hand, which could be converted to a good deal e.g. into an elven myth and on the other hand work serve as a more scholarly human explanation of the Santharians e.g. as well.  The darkwinds are a good example for that. The darkwinds are not dark at all, and for other cultures they may be completely irrelevant. But they have their place in elven myth, and humans might have observed nearly constant storms at the transgressions to the Void, from which they could have gotten similar ideas.

@Smith: What is required is to have a concept as Talia said from a semi-godlike view, which is reasonable to a certain extent and which results in facts, which we can pin down. Without a prior concept, which is reasonable to a certain extent, we can't really pin the facts down. The answers to your questions, Smith, are being given now bit by bit while we're adjusting the scheme. And as you can see, Talia has some very good explanations and sketches at hand in this respect

In this respect I'd like to say that we could also keep the sun more generalized perhaps, stating that it's mainly a glowing orb, not necessarily a self-consuming fireball in a gem cage (=elven). This gives other cultures more possibilities.

What the appearance of the Void is precisely is one of our next questions. The Void for example could be quite unspectacular. When the sun shines through it, it could appear just blue (=sky color at day). So when you look up in the sky you would actually see the Void. Only if you penetrate the Void you might experience different colors. Or it could be that the nearer you get to the Void, the more miraculous colors you could see at the sky because would reflect differently at a certain angle etc. Just some first ideas.

The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

[Capher]

Anyone see the StarTrek V movie I believe it was.  Where a vulcan guy commandered the Enterprise and went in search for God.  There was this border, they called it the end of the universe type of thing.  I imagine the Void to be something like that.

It turned out to be just an illusion, but the illusion was scary enough and powerful enough to turn back most adventurer's.  Of course once you got past your fear then you found yourself in a another universe or plane of existence.  It was quite colorful as Art described what he envisioned the Void could possibly be as you neared it.

Capher.

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Capher, how could you forget the name of Mr. Spock! Or wasn't it he who searched for god?

When Art mentioned "some first ideas" for the void, I discovered, that I had already quite a distinctive pic of them, must have imported it from elsewhere.
I always imagined, that the void's effects are only seen oe experienced near the void, the nearer you come the more. Somehow I have a grey colour before my eyes, light grey, dark grey, like an unpenetrable fog. But on the other hands quite an impressing varity of colours as well, iridescent, changing, very beautiful, but if you try to look at them, you get very sick!

The idea of enourmous windeffects near the void is fascinating. They could veil the void, either taking use amounts of water with them - or sand. It woul be very dangerous to sail on the west coast of Nybelmar or along the Eastcoast of Yamalquain.
I wont look into it, but it could really be, that differences in the temperature and the atmospheric pressure between the boths sides of the disk , created during the day and night (sun) , are the reason for those winds. Maybr they change direction once (or twice?)a day? And that would be the time one could come nearer to the void or see its colours.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 1/16/04 16:20

[Koldar Mondrakken]

It was his mnaniac halfbrother actually and this Star Trek (V) is seen as the worst by most Star Trek communities not capturing the mood and concept of the Star Trek universe. The critics were pretty nasty...  

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Then I haven't seen it  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

[Artimidor Federkiel]

It's very funny that you mention Star Trek V... The special DVD edition for this movie was released before Christmas and I've bought it just two days ago. And I planned to watch it this very evening...   - So I'll take a closer look at the Star Trek Void barrier... - And yup, the Enterprise is actually abducted in this movie.

Side note: Though this probably is the weakest Star Trek movie, it is the one where Spock tries to sing "Row, row, row, your boat" in front of the campfire with the rest of the crew... - splendid! And the song ends with "Life is but a dream..." - Now if this doesn't sound Santharia related   - Well, Spock doesn't find this last line very "logical"... *grin*

The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 1/16/04 16:34

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Note: Just to get things a bit more organized here: I will try to be online on the Santharian IRC channel (see details here if you're not familiar with it) 3 or 4 evenings a week, Monday till Thursday, from approx. at least 20h till 23h Central European Time (+1). So whenever you have time then, feel free to drop in and discuss ideas here, which we then can present here on the board. If you see me online on another time, feel free to message me to join the IRC chat to discuss things. If possible I'll join you.

As usual important things we discussed will be posted here to await further comments.

The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

[Smith in Exile]

We should try to avoid making a fact that Caelereth is a disk. This could prevent other cultures from being taken "seriously". Instead we can use the disk image here, if we think it's easier for us, but when we define the facts we should say something like this: "one cannot travel west of Nybelmar and get to Yamalquain, or north of Sarvonia and get to Aeruillin"; also, "Aeruillin is a continent not completely surrounded by waters, as there is this void phenomenon etc."

So facts should be like this, not simply stated that the world is a disk. If we present them like this, then other interpretations are allowed - including the cube one, or even the sphere (if we can imagine that a very brave and lucky sailor by some strange occurance in the void managed to be transported from the west to east or something).

Same view we should apply to the sun, moon, void and probably the Netherworld (I guess we should decide something about that too). Not what the sun or moon, really are, but how they appear: not that the sun is a globe, disk or whatever, but that it appears as a source of heat and light of the X size and with the resemblance of a fireball or something, also that it moves from east to west, rising from beyond or from above the horizon (or both, maybe depending from the region); not that the moon is a reflection, an ice globe or anything else, but that is something of X size which resembles a globe/disk/whatever, has the Y colours, lights up the night to a certain degree and moves from a to b rising from beyond or above the horizon at certain times.

Same with the void. As no life may exist there we should be pretty obscure in its description: we should state that it's a series of phenomena of all sorts present everywhere on the edge of the mapped world etc. (I would prefer here not to make it a barier of some sorts, but to extend its "territory" somehow - as if someone that would try to travel there surviving the wildest storms and stuff, would actually not travel but "moving in the same spot", not getting anywhere actually)

[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Then Smith, we get actually to our own boring universe with the globe in the end. Why should we leave the choices open ? At some point we HAVE to decide, if it should be a disk, a cube or a sphere, because otherwise we will have the same problems again , what the people are actually able to detect and Nybelmar wants to detect something else than Santharia.
They do have the possibility to discover, that their world is a disk as they have if it would be a globe or a cube. That postpones the problem only.

If you want to determine the „moons“ orbit, rotation, appearance and so on only from an observational point, you have to think NOW of quite a lot - and differences what is possible or not or how it should be will arise very soon again.

Lets say me something to your post direct(maybe I say it now twice )


First, I don‘t understand this sentence

Quote: We should try to avoid making a fact that Caelereth is a disk. This could prevent other cultures from being taken "seriously"

And this is not entirely correct also, because who knows what in the void is? maybe Aeruillin is surrounded of water?

Quote:"one cannot travel west of Nybelmar and get to Yamalquain, or north of Sarvonia and get to Aeruillin"; also, "Aeruillin is a continent not completely surrounded by waters, as there is this void phenomenon etc."

Quote:
So facts should be like this, not simply stated that the world is a disk. If we present them like this, then other interpretations are allowed - including the cube one, or even the sphere (if we can imagine that a very brave and lucky sailor by some strange occurance in the void managed to be transported from the west to east or something).

Do we want other interpretations? Once the first developer has done an interpretation, the others have to follow this interpretation, why not deciding what it has to be now? You can‘t have different interpretations on different facts, you can only have different interpretation of one fact.

The nether world concept has to be thought over as well of course, though there are certain things already written. And the void is already partly written as you propose, and under discussion as well.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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[Artimidor Federkiel]

Last 10 Shouts: Artimidor Federkiel 16 May 2013, 22:20:50 Files have been replaced again, but the question remains how long this will last. SMF support will have a look at the security problem. Artimidor Federkiel 16 May 2013, 17:26:47 It has been hacked. The third time in 3 days. I need to replace the changed files again (won't happen before evening) - and then see what the SMF support recommends as a strategy. Irid alMenie 16 May 2013, 10:06:36 Arti, could you maybe take a look at the RPG board? I got a message from my anti-virus program and now I can't access the column on the right with the list of current threads and the shoutbox. Thankies Artimidor Federkiel 04 May 2013, 13:50:24 Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels 03 May 2013, 19:31:50 got it! The menu to the left is so convenient, that I nearly forgot the old souce... Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels 03 May 2013, 19:23:01 Artimidooor.. could you please add the Northern Sarvonian Tribe's map to the map menu? As you know, my mouse over does not work I could't find it right now, though I know it does exist somewhere. Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels 30 April 2013, 23:32:56 Huhu, huhu, huhu, ..that was my owl.. Shabakuk Zeborius Anfang 23 April 2013, 01:41:31 Hiho! Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin 21 April 2013, 09:52:11 Hi, Talia Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels 18 April 2013, 17:54:03 Hello!

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