Concerns about the development of quests.

Humangus

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Concerns about the development of quests.

« on: 13 July 2003, 01:54:00 »

I 'll have to express my concerns about the quests involved in the game. That is especially after seeing the recipe book that will get the player into another chore as I see it and reading somewhere in the forum that Orcs do not exist in southern Sarvonia and some other similar stuff about Santharia being a "peaceful" place to live.

I believe all these stuff will get the World and the game away from traditional role-playing without a good deal of beasts, fighting, danger and evil as I would like to see it. Instead, it will be more like an adventure and although we had this discussion before I only see that things get this way.

Rats, spiders, harmless green snakes and long dialogues will not be enough to keep the traditional role-player in the game for long.

And it would be OK to start the game with simple stuff and chores but the problem is I don't see it evolve in any different direction. So I would like to know what do you think about this Artimidor and if there would be any heroic quests and real danger and real mystery at all in the near future.

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Artimidor Federkiel

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #1 on: 13 July 2003, 06:31:00 »

*haha* I see from where you're coming, Humangus... Cookery books definitely aren't used as standard repertoire in RPGs, but I see no reason to get concerned about anything.

Well, the fact that we start with working on peaceful areas doesn't mean that Mr. hero will have to search for recipes for the rest of the game to make housewives happy, pick flowers etc.

As a matter of fact you might have noticed that right after the design of the first quest I've started immediately at the Prosperous Farmhouse area in order to incude the first smaller monsters in combination with a quest as well, and this in the populated area where you can't easily summon a demon or a dragon to make the life a bit more difficult for the player.

- Admitted, Talia's room to the west are a bit too peaceful for bloodthirsty warriors with heavy axes and more on the harmless adventure-side, but we'll also quench in some attacks even in this peaceful area of minchwrats and the like, be assured.

- Furthermore there's swamp up there north of the 300s rooms, and I'm sure you'll find nasty snakes and nasty larger kinds of flies and lizards as well there.

- The whole northern labyrinth-like forest (where you can see Hieronimus with his rat-friend) is also meant to harbour animals like wolves, bears and a few other annoying fellows, which need to be developed first.

- As I've also already said the cave areas are mainly monster areas (52, 114, 161 so far).

- And in the final large cave/tunnel system the player will discover we have of course much more possibilities to add forgotten monsters or even mysterious races (or at least people) performing dark machinations of some kind.

So I don't actually see any problem.

Development takes time, especially as Judy, our best horse, who promised to work on the southwestern rooms (which connects us to a first larger monster cave) of course concentrates more on her baby at the moment, which is absolutely understandable.

Even RPG games usually don't start with huge monsters bitting the player's head off, you know, but you'll have to go through an introduction into the whole thing first. And currently I'm still trying to construct a believeable environment through an example of a settlement with a) various interacting characters, b) quests c) pictures d) monsters e) lots of details f) music and g) resulting fromn a-f: game atmosphere. Placing some monsters in the middle of nowhere just to have some doesn't do it. And as Talia's sacred Baveras shrine can't be infested by evil monsters, we'll have them somewhere else, but we'll have them and in large quantities, no need to fear!

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #2 on: 13 July 2003, 08:06:00 »

Yeah, Humangus, the dangerous parts , f.e. up to the tomb are just not described yet. We may even add a gorge in this region which can be home of many nasty things.
Ok, I place a moss bear somewhere near the waterfall the player has to fight, ok?
And I wouldn't worry about the players coming or not - if the one type leaves, because there are not soon enough a lot of fights, there might be others who appreciate a more sophisticate game - and you don't have to read the cookery book.I would prefer to have less players who praise the game - because it is demanding and highly interesting, because you have to THINK, than more players who just play it through, because they can fight some monsters and are gone then. This sort of game exists already .

And to be honest, just fighting all the way long gets boring with the time, you don't need a Santharian background for this.

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Edited by: Talia Sturmwind at: 7/12/03 23:59


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Humangus

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #3 on: 14 July 2003, 10:18:00 »

Artimidor. I believe you. I just need your assurances from time to time if this is OK. So it is fine.

Talia: Most gamers and especially today do not like to think when playing. They just want to hack some monsters and spend their time nicely. If there is a story background so much better. I must admit that this is the kind of games that LT was originally created for. If the game is going to be a traditional adventure there are better tools and interpreters for that purpose.

But you must understand that since this will hopefully be the first game released for LT, if it is not good or come up to the gamers' expectations it will certainly affect the course and future of LT negatively. This is why I am worried.

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier

www.legendarytales.com


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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #4 on: 14 July 2003, 22:01:00 »

I see your case, Humangus, I'll add a dangerous fish to fight, but the game is non commercial anyway, so why look for numbers?

You could go to earn a good name for NOT doing just stupid fighting games. Your name "Legendary Tales"looks promising.

And if you want to do commercials later on, the people who have the money are not the ones who are satified with fighting some monsters you can't even see, maybe on a pic. They will play graphic games.

But well, I'm a addict to puzzles, still playing riven and Exil and haven#t found the clue yet (I'm Not using cheats to help me!)

Well, I have created a piecefull environement , but it will be the only one I assume. And you have to do the rooms first and add then the monsters.

Btw, Art, I thought we could put a wagons of rovers on this boring part of the way to the tomb, very short after the Mimi crossing. Maybe we could even (NOT me) do a dialog, where you could either talk you out the situation OR fight the (two?) rovers.

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Smith in Exile

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #5 on: 14 July 2003, 21:41:00 »

There is though another "problem" with this game. The area is relatively small and not very important in an overall santharian context. This is excellent for a start but as with all the starts we shouldn't expect too much. I think the idea works well for now (having a peacefull area - a kind of heaven - and a dangerous one or ones) but the possible "dangers" shouldn't be too pretentious (because they can't, it will make the game and the story unballanced). I like to think that the Nepris Adventure will be like a "tutorial for santharia", something offering a glimpse of the "real things" that may exist in a future (a demo if you prefer).
And maybe is better this way, starting with a text based engine, than as it was intended before, starting directly in a 3d environment: although that would be the ideal in my view (as nowadays, besides movies, computer games have the largest array of possibilities for accomplishing a full imersion).

@Talia.

Don't think that I have something against you lol, but this is becoming usual (as to engage in some contradictory talks with you - maybe we should make it a hobby lol, jk)... Anyway, if a work of this type is not commercial this doesn't mean that it doesn't try to address to someone. I don't think that a writer can work just for her/his own self, for instance. There is always a public.

@Artimidor. As I replied in the Arkhaeon thread, I can deal with some "dark machinations". Imho it would be a good thing to build a "window" to other continents or kingdoms, as this would result in a better simulation of a world (the player would have the feeling that Nepris is just a small piece of a larger puzzle - and that is a good feeling). But we just have to agree once and for all about the Arkhaeon presence in Santharia after Santhros (and I am talking only about their presence, without thinking about some important historical additions to what is already developped, let's say, until the XVIIth century a.S. - as probably this would be quite impossible)

PS. "window" is meant to be a metaphor not a portal of some sort...

Edited by: Smith in Exile at: 7/14/03 10:47


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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #6 on: 15 July 2003, 00:27:00 »

Yeah, lets discuss, Smith, if not even dispute (No, not until you have done some rooms, lol).

This game was not planned as a 3 D game, but just as it is now - or am I wrong here? This is Humangus and not Nate, the 3-D game was abandoned long ago.

I don‘t see a problem in the small area, it takes along time to go round and solve all quests as soon as we will have finished it. And we can do it as dangerous as we want to, even in the heart of the kingdom, where we are not.

I don't see the game as a peaceful realm. Just because we have started with two relatively peaceful areas, the village itself and the region around Baveras shrine, this does not mean, that it will be a peaceful place overall.

First, you have to do the rooms first - the boring ones like paths and so on as well - before you can place things( items ...attackers ) into them.

Second, if you look at the map - there are plenty rooms left, I would say more than 3/4, which can be filled up with nasty things - as soon as they are described. And I personally don‘t want to get attacked in every room.
Even in the peaceful area around Baveras shrine and the waterfalls you can easily loose some of your endurance.

Third: We don‘t have a shop yet to buy weapons, so I would prefer not to meat a dangerous enemy yet, the only thing we can pic up so far is a damaged dagger.

Forth: I think it is not necessary to plan already now on a greater scale - I don‘t see this project finished yet. I‘m glad if we will realise this in a good time.
If we want something really dangerous here, an monster for the final fight, we could always set a Chasm demon somewhere without bigger problems. We can make the Nepris area as dangerous as we like to, as I said already. IF we place a dragon into a cave - well, we have to write a story, how he got there

I woul not be planning on a greater scale already now, when we just have started this little bit.

Art, lets set a biting dog on the path somewhere which you have to fight (without weapons), with Pinns ball in the hand. Maybe you can even drop the ball?

Smith, why not writing up some rooms? Or writing an entry for a nasty swamp beast! Or two!

***Astropic of the day***

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind at: 7/14/03 13:41


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Artimidor Federkiel

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #7 on: 15 July 2003, 07:22:00 »

Yeah, just give us some time... And you'll get entangled in exciting adventures, which don't require cookery books... I'm also working on placing some pictures into the game now to make it graphically interesting (pic for Cookery Book, pic for the Katya book you'll find at a shelf, pic for the Avennorian ship in the common room of the farmhouse; I'll also change the main Nepris bridge to a stone bridge and will use the bridge you can see on top of the Santharian mainframe to the left, and so on...)

I guess what is important at the beginning as well is that you shouldn't accidentally stumble into an attack situation without at least a bit of a preparation, that's why the door to the Farmhouse cellar will be locked in the beginning for example until someone lets you in. And we should put up some warning signs when the player enters more dangerous territory. If you do the Prosperous Farmhouse quests at the beginning and go to the cellar you will a) get a first weapon (a dagger) from Ilbeth's husband and b) you can grab some items down there, which others won't miss. So you'll get some stuff bit by bit if you follow the first suggested quests.

Some other things I've thought about and I'd like to post here now that Humangus has major concerns about cookery books ( :lol

):

We have this gravedigger dialogue already (for Marcogg), and though he initally was concepted as something else, I think of putting him to the cave far to the northwest (NW of Hieronimus). In this cave he might have performed some necromantic incantations, and so you'll find some skeletons there for example and I nice eerie subplot.

For the swamp I might also propose a jumping fish, which attacks the player and plants where you might get entangled if you cross the swamp. Someone might have lost something in the swamp, so you are the one to go out there and get it.

Aside from that I think that we can bring some beings into the game which are related to the main quest to the surface already, like for example goblins (just an example in which direction we could go, I know that Gob-Oc live more north in general). We could make their appearance a bit of a mystery. For example: Nobody knows if they really are there, but some claim to have seen them, and of course there are rumours among the people in town that they have captured the girl. Others say the gypsies did it. And so on. You then might encounter a few goblins (?), and there is a secret passage from where they came at the Norgerinth tomb. That's why this little girl entered there, and now she can't get out anymore, cause she's afraid of being discovered etc. The goblins (?) could then serve a certain group with dark machinations (Smith?)... You might learn a lot about these people in the game, but not everything, to keep the mystery... But I guess there are a lot of possibilities down there in the Norgerinth dungeon.

I envision the second part of the game a bit in the atmospheric direction of Arx Fatalis if someone has played this Ultima Underworld-like game. We don't have the graphics, but I'm sure we can make the player's trip a wonderfully exciting experience...

About the dog, Talia: We have one already up north (a kardion, waiting in front of the father house of the lost girl), and we can make him a bit more aggressive if you want... We'll see.

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #8 on: 15 July 2003, 18:52:00 »

Well, I don't need the dog, just wanted to give the a restless player looking for fights a challenge in the middle of the village - and you should probably not fight a dog which belongs to somebody. The dog doesn't have to die though, but can run away if fought successfully. If not (what would surely be the case i for me, lol), the player gets a bite=loss of endurance, then the dog runds away.

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Smith in Exile

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #9 on: 15 July 2003, 20:07:00 »

the plan sounds good imho...

While I have nothing against writing some rooms (but actually I would be willing to

) I am more reluctant when it comes to designing new flora and fauna. I just know that I am not very good at these things, of course is not impossible but it would take me more time to do it (as I don't have the same ease as with the other stuff)

ok, so I'll start thinking about those "dark machinations" related to the goblins, do a little research and get accustomed to the developping patterns?...

Edited by: Smith in Exile at: 7/15/03 9:08


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Humangus

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #10 on: 16 July 2003, 05:47:00 »

YES. My ears are hearing about the stuff of legend at last! I might even get over the cookery book. :lol

We should move towards that direction Artimidor. Goblins are great for parties of beginning levels. As in BG ( dah.. ) And a darker - larger background scheme that will be unveiled in the course of the game sounds great.

Although the player should get warnings we should not actually bar entry to dangerous areas. If he wants to go to the basement with bare hands then let him get killed. He will not try it again. Anyway, these are just small details.

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The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier

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Bard Judith

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #11 on: 24 July 2003, 03:14:00 »

Just a little note regarding weaponry so far: a bit of initiative in room 33 (poor farmhouse shed) will get you an axe head without a handle. I had thought of having someone (one of the fishermen for whom you do a quest) notice that you are carrying around a handleless axe and offer to put a new helve (proper name!) on the blade for you.

Hey presto - you are armed with an axe, which is a pretty good bashing weapon even for the unskilled as long as you keep it away from your feet and shins!

There should be other unique and interesting chances for the player to acquire weapons without just walking into the cliche' "Armorer's Shop" and putting down his gold pieces, right?


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Artimidor Federkiel

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Re: Concerns about the development of quests.

« Reply #12 on: 24 July 2003, 08:44:00 »

Yup, sure... Propose to make this a special unique weapon you'll only find once in the game (let's call it a "Silver Axe" for example, or even give it a special name), so that you can't buy that one in a shop. Maybe hide the axe head a bit, so that it isn't that easy to get, and we have a nice little semi-quest

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Concerns about the development of quests.