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Author Topic: Short Progress Report but...  (Read 2748 times)
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Humangus
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« on: 21 August 2003, 01:44:00 »

I have integrated packages number 7,8,9 already. The new introduction looks great and you can read it while you listen to the background music :)

but...

FIRST ISSUE
--------------------

I saw many things that are really not necessary at all. I mean all those foodstuffs there is really not any reason to be there. There is almost a total of 50 such items and travel gear that they are completely NOT NECESSARY to have them. Even if SOME of them are used in SOME quests still this is a huge number of stuff to be integrated as items. They can just be part of the room's description and nothing more.

I don't think it will be a good idea that the player walks around picking up food. Unless all of those items are used in some quest I don't see any reason to add them from now.

The same with the herbs. I mean there must be some herbs here and there 1,2 maybe 5 types but the list is just growing on and on. Again, unless there is some use for them I don't see any reason to add them. We must do away with all these "adventuring" features or at least connect each of them with a quest or something. Even if some of them are used to cure wounds or slow poison still they are too many to find a use for them "in the game". If someone is extensively interested in the flora in Caelereth he will have to look in the website. There is no reason to add each and every herb into the game.

SECOND ISSUE
-------------------------
I saw that the descriptions of locations are somewhat too extensive. Of course they are perfect and very nice and it is good to have SOME but there is no need for each and every location to have a detailed description. Besides we can progress faster on the locations and better fill them with action and quests that with elaborate descriptions.

As I said it is good to have some but for example all the forest locations could just have a short description and more action. A description of more than 10 to 15 lines should be the average.

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #1 on: 21 August 2003, 06:37:00 »

Seems patience is not your biggest virtue, Humangus ;)


  Just a few comments to your concern, I‘m in a hurry.


I saw many things that are really not necessary at all. I mean all those foodstuffs there is really not any reason to be there. There is almost a total of 50 such items and travel gear that they are completely NOT NECESSARY to have them. Even if SOME of them are used in SOME quests still this is a huge number of stuff to be integrated as items. They can just be part of the room's description and nothing more.

Where are fifty items? Do you think of Judy's price list? she did this all for the site and not just for the RPG, to get a general feeling for prices. From there on she wants to concentrate on what is needed in the RPG


I don't think it will be a good idea that the player walks around picking up food. Unless all of those items are used in some quest I don't see any reason to add them from now.


The same with the herbs. I mean there must be some herbs here and there 1,2 maybe 5 types but the list is just growing on and on. Again, unless there is some use for them I don't see any reason to add them. We must do away with all these "adventuring" features or at least connect each of them with a quest or something.
Even if some of them are used to cure wounds or slow poison still they are too many to find a use for them "in the game". If someone is extensively interested in the flora in Caelereth he will have to look in the web site. There is no reason to add each and every herb into the game.

All I did so far will be in use for something, either for a quest, or to strengthen your endurance when low. Not all has been written though.
The Cerubell for bribing the mermaid or other females.
The lotann to try to bribe and fail
The ease scathe for wound healing
The lampstalk and lightmoss to have light in the caves
The cookies of Ilbeth(exist they already?) and sweets to bribe Mimi

There won't be many more other plants in other regions, and not all are meant to be pickable. Nobody has to read the EXAMINE if he doesn't want to.
 



SECOND ISSUE
-------------------------
I saw that the descriptions of locations are somewhat too extensive. Of course they are perfect and very nice and it is good to have SOME but there is no need for each and every location to have a detailed description. Besides we can progress faster on the locations and better fill them with action and quests that with elaborate descriptions.

As I said it is good to have some but for example all the forest locations could just have a short description and more action. A description of more than 10 to 15 lines should be the average.

I definitely won't change my descriptions now and I don't want Art  to alter too much as well.

The rooms were you have to fight will be more numerous in other regions, sorry, those around Baveras shrine are meant to be peaceful.
I don't think you expect an attack in every second room? When we have too many around  or near the village already, how can we make the upper regions/deeper forest more dangerous?


As I said already, please be patient, Humangus.

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Humangus
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« Reply #2 on: 21 August 2003, 07:24:00 »

Where are fifty items? Do you think of Judy's price list?

No. I don't think of Judy's price list. I think only what Artimidor has sent so far which is foodstuffs, travel gear and herbs-plants which are actually more than 50.

All I did so far will be in use for something

OK. And all I'm saying is that I will add the items when there are also the quests available.

I don't think you expect an attack in every second room?

Yes I do. Especially while you're outside of the village.

When we have too many around or near the village already, how can we make the upper regions/deeper forest more dangerous?

This shouldn't be an issue here. That's the purpose of an RPG in contrast to an adventure. In an RPG you start weak, you fight enemies, you get stronger, you fight more difficult enemies, you get richer, you buy better weapons, you fight even stronger enemies. Some puzzles can also be thrown in just to take a break from the fights. That's the whole idea.

I definitely won't change my descriptions now and I don't want Art to alter too much as well.

Nothing will be changed. I 'm talking about what follows from now on.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #3 on: 21 August 2003, 11:22:00 »

I understand some of your points, Humangus.

There are some things we have to address concerning descriptions.

Room Descriptions

- Single Rooms
The description length is problematic at some single rooms - a good example is the currently unprepared room 316, the Sandbank. Here the description is half a Word page. For comparison: As you might see in the the Prosperous Farmhouse rooms I've tried to keep the long descriptions at a certain level and added some things to examine. This gives the player some interactivity and he/she gets better into the game and feels himself/herself part of it. Maybe it is also possible to split for example the sandbank room description a bit, so that some parts of the description are in fact integrated in a static object you can examine. I'll see what I can do here.

- Generic Rooms
The other issue are the Generic Rooms. This concept should be stressed better. Generic Rooms are rooms which have the same description, for example a path, where there's nothing different in the description. RPG MUDs and text adventures (like the old Infocom adventures) for example use the generic rooms very often at larger areas, and we'll do that as well. E.g. the wolf-infested forest up north will be mainly one generic room. Everything that changes in the single rooms are the directions, which are accessible. Especially at outside levels generic levels often dominate, and only if there's for example a hollow tree trunk in the middle of the forest, then you have a unique room. I'm aware that we have in Talia's area too many unique rooms maybe, but I plan to use more generic rooms soon in the swamp and forests area, so that the game play focusses on fights there.

In general you have to be aware that the game is textbased, but you always should keep in mind that the player prefers to get smaller doses served. Too many long descriptions in a certain vicinity may be a sign for the player to just skip reading the description, and get to the things he can take/examine or fight. So we should be more aware of these things, that's true.

Items

Judith's list (foodstuff, travel gear etc.) is a rough list on what things could be in the game. She categorized things and worked on these descriptions so that we have something to integrate whenever we need them.

I agree with Talia that I think herbs and plants are nicely elaborated, and we don't plan to make hundreds of more plants.

But I also think that some (not masses of) common completely unimportant items for game play are essential to have, even if they aren't quest related at all. They serve the purpose of creating atmosphere and provide background information, e.g. if you find a loaf of bread in Ilbeth's kitchen or a book you can examine at the shelf, then it's not of relevance for experience and such, but for the world's realism. Text games can't rely on graphics, and long description get overlooked. But at least a bunch of "not important" items give the player background information and provide player interaction, which is one of the key elements of such games.

"Some puzzles can also be thrown in just to take a break from the fights."

This is clearly exaggerated. If you take a look at games like the Ultima series, then the amount of quests is very high, nearly 50:50, even Baldur's Gate is highly quest intense (tough mostly in relation with monster killing, but not alway). Also I think that defining every second room as a monster room is a bit too much. The direction outside of the village itself (focussing on beasts and monsters) is clear, but I think we don't want a Diablo, or?


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Humangus
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« Reply #4 on: 21 August 2003, 13:34:00 »

Cool. I agree with what you say and I admit that the last part is exaggerated to make my point. We certainly don't want a diablo but we still want this game to appeal to as many players as we can get. Anyway, I will implement only the items as needed but not the complete list.

By the way, I have finished the Pinn quest and dialogue and also the Andrus and Mannef dialogues without the quests. I think by the end of this week the next version will be ready 8)

Suggestion: I think it would be a good idea to give ID numbers to all the locations presented in the Nepris region so that I can do the whole map ( I feel really refreshed after my holidays and ready to do some more work). Descriptions can be integrated later but it will be nice to be able to walk the complete map. I just need the numbers for now and the rest may come later.

I have also started working on grids to add an automap. I saw that the map is accurately tiled and this will be really helpful to dynamically build a map (after it is sliced properly).

www.legendarytales.com

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #5 on: 21 August 2003, 13:46:00 »

Hmmm... Finishing the whole map concept right away isn't really very easy as I don't know what ideas Talia has for the swamp for example, so it could all be only a rough estimation I fear, where several rooms will change later. I could try to finish such a rough map, but it still will remain incomplete.

P.S. I hope to get the Mimi dialogue Talia sent me prepared as well till tomorrow, so that it can get in the next version. We'll see.


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Humangus
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« Reply #6 on: 22 August 2003, 03:47:00 »

Ok, I will relax a bit then. Or work on other stuff actually ;)  

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