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Author Topic: New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!  (Read 116979 times)
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Anwulf II
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« Reply #105 on: 23 April 2007, 11:40:39 »

Well, I noticed you have a suffix that turns nouns to verbs (-en) and one that turns verbs to adjectives (-lán/-án), so I was wondering if you could turn nouns into verbs by using both.

No, because these endings form verbs from adjectives, not nouns.

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I was actually looking for a verb that would mean 'to cause to become like X' (where the X isn't part of the word).  I'm thinking it might not be very feasible though, if using the two suffixes above together is how such a meaning is normally expressed.

What part of speech is X? Is it a noun? Are you thinking of a sentence which means something like "X changed Y so that Y became like Z"? Or more simply, "X turned Y to Z"
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Mina
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« Reply #106 on: 23 April 2007, 12:35:39 »

Erm...
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My original idea was that -én formed material adjectives from things like wood, earth, stone, metal etc.
So why not for example avásh 'wind' -> avashén 'windy' -> avashenán 'to make windy'?  I admit most of these words won't usually make much sense, but in certain contexts some might be useful. 

'X changed Y so that Y became like Z' is closer to what I was thinking of. 
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Anwulf II
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« Reply #107 on: 23 April 2007, 18:34:10 »

Erm...So why not for example avásh 'wind' -> avashén 'windy' -> avashenán 'to make windy'?  I admit most of these words won't usually make much sense, but in certain contexts some might be useful.

That's perfectly possible. You could say

avashensití só daín "The day turned windy."
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Mina
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« Reply #108 on: 23 April 2007, 19:55:02 »

I thought such a construction would imply a cause, ie. "The day was made windy" (by a god, perhaps).  "The day turned windy" would probably be "nársití avashén só daín".  On the other hand, "tehl'nársití avashén só daín" would also seem to work for "The day was made windy" (assuming I did the compounding correctly). 
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Anwulf II
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« Reply #109 on: 23 April 2007, 22:01:31 »

I thought such a construction would imply a cause, ie. "The day was made windy" (by a god, perhaps).  "The day turned windy" would probably be "nársití avashén só daín".  On the other hand, "tehl'nársití avashén só daín" would also seem to work for "The day was made windy" (assuming I did the compounding correctly). 

You're straying into some complex syntactic territory here. :)

Above, I suggested a sentence such as

phoilsití só daín {nóim-chón} avashén "The day turned windy"

using a reflexive pronoun (nóim-chón "itself") because the subject is self-referential. The sentence is literally "made (verb) the day (subject) itself (object) windy (adj. complement)". Or, using the verb I suggested above, you could say

avashensití só daín {nóim-chón}

which has the same meaning as the previous sentence.

When the subject and object are different, you could also say

phoilsinté sóh coorín só dainím avashén "The gods turned the day windy"

where the subject (sóh coorín) and the thing affected (só dainím) are different.

Different languages handle this in different ways. Some languages would start throwing around reflexives; others, such as English, allow the subject to be the thing affected without an explicitly stated cause.
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Mina
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« Reply #110 on: 23 April 2007, 23:21:49 »

Hmm...how did you get nóim-chón?  Noí + chón?  And won't that be more like 'themselves'?  Also, why did you put it in brackets?  Is it implied and thus doesn't have to be there?  I just noticed that 'só daín' is nominative, which probably means it's the agent (is that the right word?) in this case, as the statement doesn't seem to be passive.  That could imply a reflexive action, though I'm not sure. 

Would 'Avashensinté' instead of 'phoilsinté' work?  It looks more 'elegant' to me.  Also, while 'phoilán' means 'make', I'm not sure whether that's in the sense of creating something or causing something.  There's 'avachán' for 'create', but considering how it''s derived, it might only refer to the creation of the world, not creating in general. 

By the way, I think 'gods' would be 'aviaría'.  'Coór' is the name of one of the gods, and an evil one at that; I'm not sure why it was defined as 'God' in the dictionary. 
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Anwulf II
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« Reply #111 on: 24 April 2007, 00:50:22 »

Hmm...how did you get nóim-chón?  Noí + chón?  And won't that be more like 'themselves'?  Also, why did you put it in brackets?  Is it implied and thus doesn't have to be there?

It's in braces because I made it up for the occasion. Actually, I'm now inclined to prefer nóm-chón (on the pattern of English "him-self"). It's actually there in the sentence, not optional. (If you know French or Italian, think of reflexive verbs in those languages.)

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I just noticed that 'só daín' is nominative, which probably means it's the agent (is that the right word?) in this case, as the statement doesn't seem to be passive.  That could imply a reflexive action, though I'm not sure.

The thematic function and syntactic function are two different things. You're right that só daín is nominative and the subject, but thematically it's has a patient role.

Take the sentence

The stone hit the wall.

As we know, stones can't hit walls unless they're affected by some external agent such as a person. Therefore, although the stone is the subject, it's not the agent. Most of the time you don't need to worry about this stuff.

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Would 'Avashensinté' instead of 'phoilsinté' work?  It looks more 'elegant' to me.

Yes, it would. I agree that it'd be more elegant, but the construction I'm using is quite common cross-linguistically.

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Also, while 'phoilán' means 'make', I'm not sure whether that's in the sense of creating something or causing something.  There's 'avachán' for 'create', but considering how it''s derived, it might only refer to the creation of the world, not creating in general.

I didn't know what the exact sense of phoilán was, but again, using what I know about languages, it's not unusual to use "make" in this way (cf. French faire and Italian fare; Welsh gwneud). At one time English used "do", but there are several possible verbs here: become, turn etc. In other words, verbs to do with changes of state.

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By the way, I think 'gods' would be 'aviaría'.  'Coór' is the name of one of the gods, and an evil one at that; I'm not sure why it was defined as 'God' in the dictionary.

I wondered about that, but it was the only word which I could find. I didn't know about aviár "high spirit".
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Mina
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« Reply #112 on: 24 April 2007, 01:07:43 »

The stuff about functions is confusing.   buck

Where did the 'm' in nóm-chón come from?  And maybe chón alone would work too?  Also, how do reflexive verbs in French and Italian work?  I only know Mandarin and English, unfortunately. 

The dictionary might need some cleaning up, I think...
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Anwulf II
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« Reply #113 on: 24 April 2007, 02:49:37 »

Where did the 'm' in nóm-chón come from?  And maybe chón alone would work too?  Also, how do reflexive verbs in French and Italian work?  I only know Mandarin and English, unfortunately.

The -m comes from the accusative ending. I've merely adapted it for use with "he" and "she". You could use chón alone like 自 zì in Chinese, I guess. For example, vaisití nó/ná chón "He/she saw himself/herself".

Reflexive verbs take a pronoun as a direct object to complete their sense. For example, Italian alzarsi "to get up", mi alzo "I get up" (lit. me I get up). They're often used with verbs where you'd naturally do something to yourself, and might have a non-reflexive counterpart such as "cut" in English (e.g. I cut myself ~ I cut the bread). In Italian, like ordinary object pronouns, the reflexive pronoun precedes the verb.

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The dictionary might need some cleaning up, I think...

I agree. I was looking at it yesterday and noting many omissions, and some errors.
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #114 on: 16 May 2007, 03:45:33 »

Just a note here: In the last update I've integrated practically everything in the structured posts of Anwulf (Post #54) and Quaélh'Orín (post #281).

Integration works only if things are organized pretty well and are ready for taking as is, so that it can be prepared. The "New Styrásh Vocabulary" thread is meant to contain only the results of the discussions, not the diiscussions themselves. I advise therefore to make own threads in the future, discuss things directly there, and always update the first post with the final result, which then is ready for taking. Either in entry-like form (Styrásh grammer, tenses etc.) or in vocabulary form, that eventually finds its way into the sticky topic in order to get integrated.

Right now this thread slowly turns into chaos, and valuable information will be lost, as it doesn't make it on the site due to the lack of structure.

I recommend that things about suffixes and stuff should be collected into own threads, structured and explained a bit, so that we can make own entries (or sections of entries) from that. Anwulf, as you have established these main concepts - could you try to summarize things perhaps in an own thread if you have some time on your hands? Otherwise already elaborated things will get lost again, and we definitely don't want that, eh? ;)
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"Between the mind that plans and the hands that build there must be a mediator, and this must be the heart." -- Maria (Metropolis)
Anwulf II
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« Reply #115 on: 16 May 2007, 15:43:22 »

All right. I'll go through the thread, see what I can extract from it, and write it up.
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Ivaebhín Lateu
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« Reply #116 on: 19 June 2007, 09:11:47 »

I planing on a name I found somewhere else, but I don't think it's here. The word is:

Ivaebhín = Boy filled with brightness.
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #117 on: 20 June 2007, 03:06:54 »

I don't know where you got that name from, but it's not Styrásh, or not a composition of Styrásh words from the vocabulary, also doesn't sound very elven. So with other words: This can't go into the Styrásh vocabulary.
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Lady Cherri
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« Reply #118 on: 26 July 2007, 04:53:36 »

Just asking but where are a list of titles in Styrash like Archmage, King, Queen, Princess, etc.  I know that due to some of these titles not existing in the their way of life it may be difficult, but shouldn't they still have the words in their vocabulary.
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #119 on: 26 July 2007, 05:07:22 »

There's no such specific list as of yet, also elves don't have Kings, Queens, Princesses - the functions might appear similar, but elves have completely different society structures.

Rulers of tribes however have the title "Rónn" (male) or "Ránn" (female), and their heirs have titles like "Ac'rónn" ("male heir to the ruler") or "Ac'ránn" ("female heir to the ruler"). Hope that helps a bit.
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"Between the mind that plans and the hands that build there must be a mediator, and this must be the heart." -- Maria (Metropolis)
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