Elven Kingdom Fá'áv'cál'âr and Drow Origin

AvFlare

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Elven Kingdom Fá'áv'cál'âr and Drow Origin

« on: 08 March 2001, 16:14:00 »

EDIT: All the stuff comes right after Art's first post below.

I'd really like to flesh out the drow some more, but I need your help. Through searching the site, I found that Paelelon forest, the drow home, exists in Santharia, south of Elsreth. However, I was wondering if somehow someone could explain the following passage:

This alliance already existed since several years in order to hinder the endeavour of the dark elven lord, the MÓCH'RÓNN, SABAN BLACKCLOAK, who descended the HÈCKRANIAN volcano in order to topple the EARTHEN TITAN from his throne in the depths of the dungeon HEGEDORN.

Any help appreciated.

Edited by: AvFlare at: 3/10/01 6:33:20 pm


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Artimidor Federkiel

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Re: I need your help...

« Reply #1 on: 08 March 2001, 17:36:00 »

Hallo again, Flare!

I'd appreciate to have a drow expert here in Santharia, so here's some information which might shed some more light on the drow/dark elves as they are concepted now on the site:

Details to the passage you refer to can be looked up in the Santharian History section, End of the Age of Blood (-50 b.S.) and at the Beginning of the Age of Change. Compendium entries are still not complete in many aspects, but we add more and more information as good as we can. The passage refers to the plot of Book 1 of the Avaesthoría trilogy (the book I'm writing). The first book is called "The Shadows of Móch'rónn". In short: The Móch'rónn (Saban) is a halfelf (the elven part being drow) who with his minions tried to descended the Hèckranian volcano to topple the legendary Earthen Titan. Saban Blackcloak wanted to gain immortality by defeating the Titan. In fact the descent should last centuries and would be the cause for many important changes at the surface of the world of Aér'ai'chán... This happened quite a while before the ascension of Santhros to the Santharian throne (Santhros united the seperate kingdoms - you can find the seperate tribes in the Tribes section at the "Humans" part). To prevent the Móch'rónn from reaching his goal the leaders of the different races united and formed the "Alliance". The Alliance finally resulted in the founding of the United Realms of Santharia.

BTW: We have already given some thought to the mythological origin of the drow. If you want you can read the following thread in detail:

pub7.ezboard.com/fsanthar...D=13.topic

It is refering to the map you can find at
www.santharia.com/maps/co...orth_1.htm
(swamp region to the east as the place for the ancient elven kingdom)

If you can come up with some ideas here or even plan to develop on the drow thoroughly this would be fine


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AvFlare

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Some ideas on the subject...

« Reply #2 on: 09 March 2001, 09:47:00 »

I've given a lot of thought to the whole topic in my mind, tossing over a number of ideas. Personally, I think that Art's staunch support of the elves morality is correct in most ways. After all, such things as experiments and enslavement just don't suit the elves in any way. So here comes my idea:

Before the War of the Chosen, when powerful sorcerors ruled the land, there existed the holy elven empire of Sof'av'ariel (you add all the elven nuances). For many years, centuries even, Sof'av'ariel prospered. It's borders remained pure and unsoiled by the feet of the other races.

The elves of Sof'av'ariel were devoted to the worship of Avá and all of her creations. The elves sought to live up to their position as her privileged children. In their praise of Avá, they also devoted themselves to the other gods, including Cóor, who was recognized as an equal, and just as beautiful half of the Great Mother.

Eventually, an Empress known only as Kash'av'tayla came to power. She was a former High Priestess of Avá, and was quite righteous in her belief that Avá was the only one deserving of worship. The Emperor or Empress of Sof'av'ariel was also recognized as the chief of state religion. Through this position, Kash'av'tayla slowly steered the elves away from the other gods.

After nearly a century, the elves had become so stoic in their worship of Avá and Avá alone that they shunned the other gods. Soon the gods who had been forsaken grew angry. Cóor was most angry of all, though he remained calm and calculated.

Through propaganda, Cóor convinced the other gods that the elves were corrupt and must be punished. Avá only watched. She knew that Cóor was right. In the days that followed, Grothar, the god of weather, and Baveras, the god of the sea and water, flooded the kingdom of Sof'av'ariel. The area became an unbearable swampland.

This action only had the opposite effect on the elves. These attacks against them made them feel all the more justified in their lone worship of Avá. Their hubris reached a point such that they decided that the other gods must be both evil and heretics for rebelling against the chosen sons and daughters of The One. Avá wept for them.

Armeros, god of war, incited the other races against them, something that kickstarted the War of the Chosen in years to follow. The elves used their magic to beat the others back, becoming more and more righteous. Foiros rained fire down upon Sof'av'ariel. Once more, nothing came of it.

Kash'av'tayla continued to preach her nonsensical drivel to the elven people. Finally, Queprur, the goddess of death, intervened. She appeared through her avatar on the steps of Sof'av'ariel's capitol, Avá'reyl. Singlehandedly, she walked through the city, setting fire to homes and smiting the elves with her sickle. Finally, she reached the palace of Kash'av'tayla.

With one swift stroke, Queprur removed the head of the elven Empress. She impaled it upon a spike and set it high upon the palace of Avá'reyl. This one action divided the elven nation.

With the death of their figurehead, the elves began to develop different beliefs about the gods and themselves. Millenia later, these ideas would help develop the different tribes of elves, but for now the elves were unified in their disorientation.

However, there was one faction of elves who truly realized what had gone wrong. They knew that the other gods had been forsaken. They knew they must appease them. But through this, they came to the conclusion that alone, Avá is weak. It is only through her better half, Cóor, that she truly became The One whom they worshipped. Eventually, this belief that Cóor was the better half developed further, becoming a cult of sorts.

The other elves disapproved of these Cóor-believers. They shunned them for their ways. The new Emperor, a militant elf by the name of Ur'a'gor, decided he wouldn't tolerate them any longer. A witch-hunting crusade began within Sof'av'ariel for the rebel elves who recognized Cóor. One of the Cóor-worshippers, an elf named Saban "the Blackcloak" (an ancestor of the Saban Blackcloak who seeks to destroy the Earth Titan), begins to rally his brethren together, not willing to be hunted down any more.

Saban, seeing that he is greatly outnumbered by the rest of the elven population, begins to enlist outside help along with his wife, Kalara, a huntress and warrior herself. The other races, still seething from their earlier defeat by the elves, agree to help him.

A grand scheme is concocted, setting the exact date and time of an invasion. The other races agree to turn the nation over to Saban once the war is over. When the invasion does occur, the other elves of Sof'av'ariel are completely unprepared. The allied races make fast progress against the nation already weakened by the wrath of the gods. Soon the entire nation falls under the united control of the allied races.

However, the races are notorious for not adhering to deals. They sack the elven cities, rape their women (the beginning of half elves), take their riches, and burn them to the ground. Saban is furious. One day, he and his wife Kalara confront the allied leaders, who are standing amongst the rubble of the palace of Avá'reyl. Much to his dismay, they laugh in his face.

In one historic moment, Saban and Kalara unsheathe their weapons and attack the leaders of the allied forces. Unfortunately, they fail to notice the sentries posted around. Kalara is shot several times in the back with arrows, once through the heart. She is dead instantly. Saban still lives.

He falls to his knees, tears running down his face as he looks at his folly, the ruin of great Sof'av'ariel. Holding the body of his dead wife in his hands, he says "If our longing for the uttermost beauty is the destruction of [Eden] - will the beauty of the world then also destroy the world and thus beauty itself?" As he finishes those last words, Comryr Redscar, human general decapitates the elven leader.

The elven nation is dead. Many of the surviving elves migrate elsewhere -- various forests and safe-havens where they can live their lives in peace. Saban followers remain, though they are lost without their leader. At this time, Saban and Kalara's son, Sohlim is only an infant.

These remaining followers of Saban become the dark elves. Later, when Sohlim grows older, he takes on the name of his father, Saban, and journeys forth in search of new lands. He eventually settles the Eophyrim tribe in Paelelon. Every firstborn male of Saban's line, from that day forth, would take on the name of Saban Blackcloak once his father died.

The other elves who chose to remain instead of accompanying Saban still live on in the dark marshes of what once was Sof'av'ariel.

I know it has a lot of flaws, seeing as I wrote it on the spot, but I took me quite a while to come up with this stuff. I hope everyone enjoys it, and I would appreciate it if everyone here would help me edit and revise the origins of the drow/dark elves. Thanks!


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Koldar Mondrakken

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Some ideas on the subject...

« Reply #3 on: 09 March 2001, 10:51:00 »

Story sounds quite good!

Sounded like you've read the thread here (Reviving a Subject! and Elven kingdom)

Some problems seem to me the personification of Avá and Coór. Art is defending them like an old tiger mother its tiny tiger babys!

They should be more abstract, I think.

Perhaps the order of the catastrophes should be different. The swamps are the end effect and their creation should be then quite at the end of the row.

That Armeros rallied the other races to war sounds reasonable and that this God is relatively easy influenced by Coór, too.

Good work!

Will reread it more closely when I've more time.

Bye, Koldar


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AvFlare

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Re: Some ideas on the subject...

« Reply #4 on: 09 March 2001, 17:18:00 »

Thanks for the comment. Anyways, on the whole god-abstraction thing, I'm not sure how to change it. I'll see what Art says when he responds. As for the flooding, I'll change that in the next revision. This is probably going to take a while before it can become official Santharian mythos. Another thing I've got to figure out is where the drow's unique skin tone and hair color is derived from. Though since Curgan seems to have been developing the dark elves post-empire in his Elven Theory thread, maybe he'll handle that.

Edited by: AvFlare at: 3/8/01 11:26:00 pm


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Artimidor Federkiel

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Nice concept!

« Reply #5 on: 09 March 2001, 17:31:00 »

Good to see your creative potential Flare

I really enjoyed it! Now here are my comments to your ideas - please see this as constructive additions, things we should discuss - in general I guess it is a very good concept.

1.) Kingdom name

The name "Sóf'áv'ariél" should have an exact meaning in the elvish tongue, so we still have to construct that or to try another one. The name maybe is a bit long for the kingdom, but that's just a minor thing.

2.) Personification thingy

*hehe* Koldar already mentioned the tiger-comparison. Hmmm... He has some point here. I'd put it this way: Although elves worship Avá She's the most unknown/abstract Goddess. She's pure "Wind" or "Dream" and the elves worhsip mainly her essence in all things existing, not the Goddess directly. If you continue on this construct of Avá being Wind Coór is her complete opposite, her mirrored image. Coór therefore is the God with the most visible manifestations, he is the God of matter. I have a strange feeling that Coór will be encountered in Book III of the Avaesthoría - he exists, while Avá in fact not doesn't exsist (because She's the reason for existence). But that's all mainly a philosophical problem. This doesn't really affect your concept, I guess.

BTW: "Cóor, who was recognized as an equal, and just as beautiful half of the Great Mother" - well said!

3.) Light elves problem

As we're discussing the topic of dark elves now we shouldn't forget the problems of the light elves ("wind elves"). These elves consisted/consist mainly of the element of wind and are spiritual beings. When and how light elves turned to "normal" elves (consisting like humans of blood and flesh) could also maybe integrated in this concept (- still needs deeper thought). At least we shouldn't forget about them.

4.) Avá, Coór

"After nearly a century, the elves had become so stoic in their worship of Avá and Avá alone that they shunned the other gods." Hmmm... According to the concept of Avá being the spiritual part and Coór the material part another idea came into my mind: The elves maybe didn't concentrate on worshiping Avá, but on the things She created. Thus they more and more lost contact to all Gods. They thought that worshipping something singular leads away from the path of finding back to the spirit of Avá (which exists in all things).

Eventually some elves even started praying to Coór in order to beg him for a sign to open the eyes for those elves who seemed to shut their eyes from the reality of the Dream (note: the reality of the Dream is Coór, is evil). Here your concept continues with Coór and Grothar etc. Later on you state that "...[part of the elves] came to the conclusion that alone, Avá is weak." In the addition I described now they would have found this conclusion even before the destruction of the kingdom.

5.) Miltant elves

The militant elf by the name of Ur'a'gor fighting for the good side maybe a bit drastic. At least elves of this type are harmony loving guys - maybe there's a more peaceful way they try to get rid of their former fellows? Maybe they try to ban them or something similar? Just an idea.

6.) About the races

The concept leads a bit away from the "United Realm of all races". Now we have just an elven kingdom. But that's ok. We can transfer the seperation of the races back to the Burning of the Tree somewhere in the mythological past.

7.) Saban

Great idea to give the name Saban a mythological history! I think it would fit perfectly into the Avaesthoría - good story for a long talk of the party members when resting somewhere in the depths of Hegedorn... I would say that "Blackcloak" should be reserved for the Avaesthoría guy, but the name "Saban" could be given to all firstborns, that's ok. Maybe "Saban" means in elvish "firstborn"?

Okeydokey. These are my first comments. Once again: I guess the concept is pretty good and we should elaborate it in more detail

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 3/8/01 11:32:51 pm


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AvFlare

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Re: Nice concept!

« Reply #6 on: 09 March 2001, 18:58:00 »

Wow, thanks for all the comments and criticism. I'll begin working on revisions ASAP. Hopefully, I can have a new and improved history concocted by the end of the night. It feels good to really add to the whole concept of Santharia. Also, as for the name, I created it before taking a look at the language section, having no idea you made such a complete compendium. I also inserted the "av" part in the middle as some form of Avá in the translation. Ur'a'gor's name was derived from the name of the Forge god, Utengor. As for the whole Saban thing, it just came to me. Glad you like it.

Edited by: AvFlare at: 3/9/01 1:00:01 am


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AvFlare

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Revisions

« Reply #7 on: 09 March 2001, 19:53:00 »

1) Matters of Phonetics

So far, there has been no text to indicate how elves show possession. Therefore, I have devised the following system. I wish to name the elven kingdom "First Land of Avá." To indicate the "of", the prefix "Fá" is used. The possessor comes next, separated by an apostrophe. In this case, Avá is shortened to "áv." In nearly all instances, words ending in a vowel are cut to the nearest consonant. If they end in a consonant, they are left alone. Therefore, Coór as a possessor would simply be "coór." Next, separated by another apostrophe, comes the possessee (I know, it's not a real word). In this case it is the word "cál'ár", meaning first land. As demonstrated through this word, adjectives are separated by further apostrophes. In the end, we have the word "Fá'áv'cál'ár." Literally, this is "of Avá, the land first." If we wished to insert an adjective describing the possessor, the adjective would be inserted after the possessor, separated by an apostrophe, followed by the possessee and any accompanying adjectives.

2) The History of the First Land

Before the War of the Chosen, when powerful sorcerors ruled the land, there existed the holy elven empire of Fá'áv'cál'ár. For many centuries Fá'áv'cál'ár prospered. It's borders remained pure and unsoiled by the feet of the other races.

The elves of Fá'áv'cál'ár were devoted to the worship of Avá and all of her creations. The elves sought to live up to their position as her privileged children. In their praise of Avá, they also devoted themselves to the other gods, including Cóor, who was recognized as an equal, and just as beautiful half of the Great Mother.

Eventually, an Empress known only as Kash'av'tayla came to power. She was a former High Priestess of Avá, and was quite righteous in her belief that Avá was the only one deserving of worship. The Emperor or Empress of Fá'áv'cál'ár was also recognized as the chief of state religion. Through this position, Kash'av'tayla slowly steered the elves away from the other gods. However, one faction remained firm in their worship of all things created by the Dream of Avá. These elves who never succumbed to corruption would later become the Light Elves. They pureness of faith eventually caused them to evolve into a higher form of being.

After nearly a century, the elves had become so stoic in their worship of Avá and all the things that she created that they shunned the other gods. Soon the gods who had been forsaken grew angry. Cóor was most angry of all, though he remained calm and calculated. Though he was the essence of chaos itself, he was also of Avá, and thus could restrain himself.

Through propaganda, Cóor convinced the other gods that the elves were corrupt and must be punished. Cóor was right. Armeros, god of war, incited the other races against the elves, something that kickstarted the War of the Chosen in years to follow. The elves used their magic to beat the others back.

This action only had the opposite effect on the elves. These attacks against them made them feel all the more justified in their lone worship of Avá. Their hubris reached a point such that they decided that the other gods must be both evil and heretics for rebelling against the chosen sons and daughters of The One. Once more, however, a faction of elves began to separate themselves from the mainstream. Elves started praying to Coór in order to beg him for a sign to open the eyes for those elves who seemed to shut their eyes from the reality of the Dream.

They knew that the other gods had been forsaken. They knew they must appease them. But through this, they came to the conclusion that alone, Avá is weak. It is only through her better half, Cóor, that she truly became The One whom they worshipped. Eventually, this belief that Cóor was the better half developed further, becoming a cult of sorts.

Kash'av'tayla continued to preach her nonsensical drivel to the elven people. Finally, Queprur, the goddess of death, intervened. She appeared through her avatar on the steps of Fá'áv'cál'ár's capitol, Fá'áv'dárím ("City of Avá", dárím being the word for city). Singlehandedly, she walked through the city, setting fire to homes and smiting the elves with her sickle. Then she reached the palace of Kash'av'tayla.

With one swift stroke, Queprur removed the head of the elven Empress. She impaled it upon a spike and set it high upon the palace of Fá'áv'dárím. This one action divided the elven nation.

In the days that followed, Foiros rained fire down upon Fá'áv'cál'ár. Then Grothar, the god of weather, and Baveras, the god of the sea and water, flooded the kingdom of Fá'áv'cál'ár. The area became an unbearable swampland, scorched by fire and drowned by water.

With the death of their figurehead and the ruin of their land, the elves began to develop different beliefs about the gods and themselves. Millenia later, these ideas would help develop the different tribes of elves, but for now the elves were unified in their disorientation.

The other elves had always disapproved of these Cóor-believers. They shunned them for their ways. The new Emperor, a militant elf by the name of Ur'a'gor, decided he wouldn't tolerate them any longer. A witch-hunting crusade began within Fá'áv'cál'ár for the rebel elves who recognized Cóor.

Once discovered, the elves would become the center of a harmonious ritual. They would be bound to a tree while elves danced, sang, played music, and prayed around them. It was supposed to be a "purification." The elf would then be ceremoniously killed so that they might be "returned to Avá."

One of the Cóor-worshippers, an elf named Saban begins to rally his brethren together, not willing to be hunted down any more. Saban, seeing that he is greatly outnumbered by the rest of the elven population, begins to enlist outside help along with his wife, Kalara, a huntress and warrior herself. The other races, still seething from their earlier defeat by the elves, agree to help him.

A grand scheme is concocted, setting the exact date and time of an invasion. The other races agree to turn the nation over to Saban once the war is over. When the invasion does occur, the other elves of Fá'áv'cál'ár are completely unprepared. The allied races make fast progress against the nation already weakened by the wrath of the gods. Soon the entire nation falls under the united control of the allied races.

However, the races are notorious for not adhering to deals. They sack the elven cities, rape their women (the beginning of half elves), take their riches, and burn them to the ground. Saban is furious. One day, he and his wife Kalara confront the allied leaders, who are standing amongst the rubble of the palace of Fá'áv'dárím. Much to his dismay, they laugh in his face.

In one historic moment, Saban and Kalara unsheathe their weapons and attack the leaders of the allied forces. Unfortunately, they fail to notice the sentries posted around. Kalara is shot several times in the back with arrows, once through the heart. She is dead instantly. Saban is also fired upon, taking wounds in his legs and shoulder, but still lives.

He falls to his knees unable to stand any longer. Tears run down his face as he looks at his folly, the ruin of great Fá'áv'cál'ár. Holding the body of his dead wife in his hands, he says "If our longing for the uttermost beauty is the destruction of [Eden] - will the beauty of the world then also destroy the world and thus beauty itself?" As he finishes those last words, Comryr Redscar, human general decapitates the elven leader.

The elven nation is dead. Many of the surviving elves migrate elsewhere -- various forests and safe-havens where they can live their lives in peace. Saban's followers remain, though they are lost without their leader. At this time, Saban and Kalara's son, Sohlim is only an infant.

These remaining followers of Saban become the dark elves. Later, when Sohlim grows older, he takes on the name of his father, Saban, and journeys forth in search of new lands. He eventually settles the Eophyrim tribe in Paelelon. Every firstborn male of Saban's line, from that day forth, would take on the name of Saban once his father died. One incarnation of this family line has become particularly notorious, descending the Hèckranian volcano so that he might destroy the Earthen Titan at his home in Hegedorn and gain immortality.

The other elves who chose to remain instead of accompanying Saban still live on in the dark marshes of what once was Fá'áv'cál'ár.

Edited by: AvFlare at: 3/9/01 1:57:06 am


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Koldar Mondrakken

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Re: Revisions

« Reply #8 on: 10 March 2001, 11:27:00 »

OK, will add here a few things I and Curgan already thought out.

In fact, the empire had grown in size and the Empress had also humans, Orcs and dwarfs under her rule. The elven did think that they cannot create a perfect kingdom without the help of the other three main races and so it seemed the right decision and although the other races were sometimes not happy about this supremacy they obeyed to the wisdom of the Firstborn.

When Armeros spread hate among the races the Orcs were the first to uprise and kill a large army unit of the Elves. A civil war broke out and the Elves had to fight hard and with only little mercy to regain peace and order. The band between the four races broke under this oppression and only the Elven army could keep up an unstable peace.

The unsecurity of the Elves after this incident lead to the seperation of some of the elves as described.

The part of the Goddess of Death is not fitting right to my imagination of her. I think about her as 'someone' doing things very subtile because in the end nobody can escape her. She would never do such things by her own but would look for people that do it for her to have a maximal impact on the souls of the people.
I try to demonstrate this in a little tale I'm currently writing.
I would suggest that Orcs and extremist Elves comitted this murder and this then became the big blood curse between Orcs and Elves. The serperatistic Elves and the Orcs were hunted down and driven away by the army and the Light Elves.

Foiros send drys and the other Gods too much rain and/or seasonal floodings. Just the idea that the empire did not die within hours but within years where all this can happen.

Saban calls for the help of the other races that seemed at first very willing to refresh the old alliance the Empire once standed for.
They gather the troops to march for the city. They succeed. In a major battle against the remants of the imperial armies and the Light Elves the other races conquered the Empire.
Now, they had a deal but the Elves under Saban were highly outnumbered by the other races and again the Orcs propagated to ignore it and take the Empire for themselves.
By this incident the leaders of what will become the Dark Elves are killed.
Soon the three other races start fighting for the rests of the empire, but soon there's nothing left to rule and the other races also wander off to other regions as the Empire became the famous swamplands.

The three incidents when the Orcs first fight, then murdered and in the end betrayed the Elves lead them on the path of Coór and they become what they're in today Santharia. (Art, I want to rework the Orcs when I'm finished with the other projects!

)

Halfelves IMO aren't natural beings in many respects but creations by magic or at least mythological origin. They're said to be more powerful as Elves and humans combined when I recall right, this was the reason for experiments and so on at first.
The newest tale goes this way!

Parts of the Elven community in this kingdom created unbelieveable magical bands with some of the other races to have themselves and their partners become more powerful. Formerly Orcs were honorable warriors and thus such bounds were not impossible between an Orc Clan and an Elven tribe. The Elves did it to gain more strength and the Orcs to gain stronger magical abilities. Some human tribes and Elves did the same.
etc...
Don't think about it like a simple crossing between races which should be right impossible, but a sharing of powers.
In the end Elves that had done this ceremony and it's counterparts were the first targets when Chaos broke out and so only few of this kind escaped.

Now Centuries later, sometimes such persons are born because the ancestors of this or that race were part in such a pact between Elves and other races.

These are my additions/suggestions and hopefully understandable explanations to your concept. Hope it fits all.

Bye, Koldar


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Artimidor Federkiel

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More comments

« Reply #9 on: 10 March 2001, 15:31:00 »

Ok, here are some more comments:

1.) Naming
The name "Fá'áv'cál'ár" is pretty good. Sounds very dramatic when spoken out aloud and the "á" at the last syllable is interpreted as a long vowel. I guess we should keep it

Perhaps write it "Fá'áv'cál'âr" in order to show that the last "a" is long.

2.) Light elves
I wrote my comments on the drow before I read this revision, and I have to say that the idea "These elves who never succumbed to corruption would later become the Light Elves. They pureness of faith eventually caused them to evolve into a higher form of being" sounds even better than my initial concept that they were first winds and then turned into flesh and blood. All races were flesh and blood. The elements formed within them. Thus the light elves became wind. And it is also very good because in the elves, the first Children of Avá, you can see the reflection (the mirrored image) of Avá once again: wind (light elves) and earth (drow).

3.) Describing feelings of Gods
Suggestion: A God "growing angry" may not sound as good as a description which only hints at the feelings of Gods. If possible references to feelings of Gods should be written in a more abstract way ("feelings" are mainly a thing of the Children of Avá). This is a simple thing of writing style: to write something different although you mean exactly the same like "growing angry". Just wanted to point this out. Working on a myth sometimes requires different writing strategies. [Little correction: I guess the word is "hybris" instead of "hubris"]

4.) New ideas
Purification ritual sounds also very fine

Beginning of the half-elves: Also quite logical, however, I see a little problem here. Problem would be that half-elves would have a bad reputation due to this mythological reason. That's why I propose to add another story to this half-elf origin to this one: E.g. that renegade light-elves (who thought that they could spread their purity) tried to lead the other races back to the realms of spirit by mingling with them. By putting together these two completely different stories the picture of the half-elves would be more complete. Certain elves could e.g. detest half-elves because they refered to them as being of the raped kind, others could interpret them as "fallen light elves", yea, even admire them.

These are my comments so far on your improved concept, Flare. Haven't read Koldar's comments currently but will do so now and comment on them soon. One after the other

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 3/9/01 9:42:42 pm


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Artimidor Federkiel

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Comments on Koldar's additions

« Reply #10 on: 11 March 2001, 03:36:00 »

1.) Kingdom of all races
Guess this idea is ok and can easily be integrated in the concept. Elves then would be the guides to these people which makes sense cause they were the first children of Avá and closest to her spirit.

2.) Queprur
Well, Flare's concept had some drama in it because of the appearance of this guest star. I thought it might be a good idea because at this time Gods roaming the lands were quite normal.

3.) Orc idea
Ok, we could put in here the explanation why orcs are so mean too. Also sounds like a good idea.

4.) Half elves
Well, I wouldn't derive a race from magical experiments (we have already deduced quite a lot of beasts from the magics used at the War of the Chosen). I'd prefer the Flare concept (together with the addition I made). I also don't think that half-elves have more abilities than humans and elves, making them supermen/elves. I mentioned such a thing somewhere when talking about Saban Blackcloak, but this guy is a very special case. According to my concept that elves wouldn't "armor" themselves magically, but are in fact peace-loving guys, they wouldn't seek to strengthen them in breeding the better version of their own with creating the the half-elf. I understand the "sharing of powers" thing, but would see it as a part of the concept of those kind of light elves who think that they can purify the humans. Onca again: An ethical thing, nothing of warfare.

BTW: Your're right, Flare: It's in fact hubris, not hybris (this is only the German and the Greek word, I guess) as Greybark informed me. Sorry, great Santharian sage Arti is also only human.

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 3/10/01 9:36:57 am


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Koldar Mondrakken

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Re: Comments on Koldar's additions

« Reply #11 on: 11 March 2001, 08:05:00 »

2.) Still think it's a far too cruel behaviour by a God who should be far more subtile in reaching it's aims, esspecially the way I think about the Goddess of Death.

3.)Are Half-elves a real race and not just a game by nature? I thought they're extremely seldom and this makes it impossible to have them as a single race. My prob' is that AvFlares makes the humans again the bad guys and the elves the poor victims. I don't want to have this all the time and so think that this idea of adaption would bring a good reason why sometimes a Half-Elf arises from pure human-human or Elf-Elf-relations.

Bye, Koldar Always fighting!


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AvFlare

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All together now...

« Reply #12 on: 11 March 2001, 09:19:00 »

1) A Kingdom of Many

This is an easy concept to integrate into the main story. It should pose no problem that there was un uprising instead of an invasion. In my honest opinion, it sounds even better that way.

2) Querpur

Think about it. In any sort of ancient myths, the gods, or in terms of the Bible itself, God took a direct hand in things. Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Egyptians (etc.) all created myths in which the gods warred amongst themselves, or appeared in human form, and much more. And nowadays you don't see any of that. Nor do you see the Almighty smiting the wicked or anything of the sort. If He were still doing that, we'd probably be standing knee deep in world peace. It is for these reasons that I depict Querpur as an actual sentient being.

3) Destruction of the Kingdom

I wanted to go more along almost a "Ten Plagues" theme with the whole thing. Once more, I don't think the gods should be subtle. They want what the want, and they want it now, not in a few years.

4) Half-Elves

I've come up with a mix of ideas. Perhaps the first half-elves were bastard children, but years down the line, the Light Elves appeared to them and "purified" the bloodline, so to speak.

5) Feelings of the Gods

Indeed, feelings are for the Children of Avá. And by that same token, the lesser deities are Children of Avá. As for our evil buddy Coór, since Avá has no emotion, he should be a roiling mass of emotion.

6) Orcs

Sounds good to me.

7) Elven Phonetics

No one criticized this. Does that mean that it is now official Santharian canon?


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Koldar Mondrakken

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Re: All together now...

« Reply #13 on: 11 March 2001, 17:05:00 »

2.)+ 3.)

My prob' is that she's actually roaming through the streets and behead people. That is far less subtile than sending plagues and catastrophes! I have no problems with the plagues but with the way Queprur is said to behave which sounds not god-like to me.
She could actually have sent a disease instead of coming personally. Would fit more in the row, too, I think.

to 7.) Don't hope that! Artimidor had no time to look at them, I'd suppose, otherwise he'll come up with critics later!!

For my part, I don't know the so-called Styrash and thus I can't say anything about it. You'll have to fight this out with Art alone!

Well, good luck!

Bye, Koldar


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AvFlare

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Re: All together now...

« Reply #14 on: 11 March 2001, 17:19:00 »

Think about it this way: I'm referring more the ancient gods. They were many myths and legends where Zeus/Jupiter would come down from Olympus and have children with mortal women, or gods appeared in person to create punishments. For example, take the Arachne story. Arachne challenged Athena to a weaving contest. Athena appeared first as an old woman to deliver a warning, then in her actual form. The goddess participated in a contest with a mortal, then turned her into a spider. Ultimately, I really think that the Querpur thing is not a problem in the least. And for the time being, Art seems to agree with me. Personally, I like that touch, and would like to keep it.


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