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Author Topic: Where I will post info on Chrondra  (Read 9808 times)
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Feanor the Grey
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« on: 31 July 2002, 15:04:00 »

Ok, this is where I will post my things on Chrandra north of Marcogg in Santharia.

First I need to know what is the size of the population you were expecting, and second, how to explain the illogical history of the Avennorian?

Next post will show you what I mean when I say illogical. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #1 on: 31 July 2002, 15:08:00 »

this is the history of the Avennorians, my comments are in ( ) so that you can see them a bit better, dunno how to change polices in forums.


History of the people of Marcogg and the Avennorians

The Age of Silence (Unknown – 3400 B.S.)

Ca. 11350 B.S.

The Glandorian Expeditions

Glandor of the Glandorians, the naval commander and now leader of the Glandorians and founder of the Port of Marglith (North Sarvonia) authorizes two ships to explore the lands and seas south of them. One ship was called the Fijor Skull, and was captained by Droki Lygnolf. The other ship was named Svarring Joling and was captained by Troi Ciosa. They launched in the late spring of the year 11349 their voyages were supposed to last no more than a year. After prayers and sacrificing two children to appease Baveras they set sail. The Fijor Skull returned approximately five months later. They had found some land south of them, but no gold or anything else of value. The Svarring Joling never returned and was considered lost at sea.

11348 B.S.

The Founding of Ciosa

In the late winter of the year 11348 the Svarring Joling runs aground on a hidden reef near a peninsula. After they had set sail from Glandor they had a good journey for a while then a huge storm came and blew them off course and way out to sea. Finally after a year      

(This I am very doubtful, no ship can sail one year without re-supplying on land. Even the great full rigged ships of the renaissance on our world can’t do that. Lack of drinkable water as well as scorbu would decimate the crew and they would have mutinied a long time ago. I think that two months are the best a ship can do without re-supplying, especially a ship like that, I think this ship is a mono-mast or a bi-mast? Restricted rationing system would be necessary to go beyond one month of sailing for these small ships. I really think you should change this to a more pertinent and realistic time period. And there is no way a small crew of people could form an entire kingdom, maybe a village, but no kingdom. Ok, maybe a fleet of full rigged ships like 25 of them could do that since they carry lots of soldiers and marines, but a mono-mast or bi-mast? I don’t think so.)

If sailing the crew saw land and headed for it. They ran aground on a hidden reef. Scuttling the damaged and sinking ship for supplies the group of explorers, men, women and children born at sea founded and built a small settlement for themselves. They named it Ciosa, after their captain and leader of their expedition. The top of the masts of the Svarring Joling can still be seen at low tide.

11300 B.S.

Thorgeir’s naming the tribe

Troi Ciosa dies in late summer at age 73 and his son Thorgeir is given leadership of the people. He names them the Avennorians, which means, “Baveras' children” in their language.

10350 B.S.

Lumber wars with the Tethinrhim

Liemolf Marcogg and others build a settlement on the banks of the Mashdai River they name Marcogg. He starts a battle with the elven tribe of the Tethinrhim over lumber and the Auturian Woods. He is badly overmatched by the elves and loses many men.

10330 B.S.

Peace Treaty between the Avennorians and the Sophronians

Under the leadership of Thorgeir of the Avennorians and Etain of the Sophronians these two kingdoms sign a trade treaty.

Between 10000-9800 B.S. (Approx.)

Further Expansion and discovery of Aeruillin

The Avennorians explore, settle and found two more settlements; Klinsor, near the southern border of the Tolonian Heath, and Chrondra northwest of Marcogg near the Mithril Mountains, becoming a river settlement off of one of the tributaries of the Mashdai River. The Avennorians also discover a new continent (Aeruillin) with one of their exploration ships they send far to the south. Dark skinned people from these lands are captured and sold them to the wealthy as slaves.

Between 9500-9023 B.S. (Approx.)

The War of the Chosen

The Avennorians like all the other ancient tribes of Sarvonia were almost completely decimated by the war.

Between 9023-9000 B.S. (Approx.)

The Year of Cleansing

The Avennorian kingdom is cleansed by the elven Xeuá magic.

(This I have a difficulty to believe, and I don’t think it’s possible. The elves wouldn’t heal some people they were at war with for a long time. Why would they do that? Unless the Avennorians were part of the force that battled with the elves.)

The Age of Myths (1655-822 B.S.)

3400-1655 B.S.

No records have been found during this time. It is speculated that the remnants of the Avennorians, though devastated by disease, famine, and other calamities of the war and even with the help of Xeuá magic took this time to rebuild their civilization.


1655 B.S.

The Rebuilding of Marcogg

Under the leadership of Barek Swanhild the Avennorians begin to rebuild Marcogg over the ruins of the old capitol Marcogg.

1653 B.S.

The Great Shipbuilding

Two years later the capitol Marcogg is rebuilt. Barek Swanhild is crowned King. He initiates the largest shipbuilding project the Avennorians ever had. His desire is to explore the seas and hopefully to find lands with gold and treasure and his own ancestors’ homeland from where they were captured and sold as slaves to the then old Avennorian kingdom.

1652 B.S.

The Discovery of Darknar (Dorenthakar)

The first exploring ship sets sail; she was named the Sorli. She had a compliment of twenty crewmembers besides the captain who was called Okar Snivild. They set sail in early spring. They return six month later with news of an island southwest of them in the Adanian Sea. An expedition is planned to explore the interior.

1651 B.S.

Barek’s Disappearance

The Sorli, with the same captain sets sail for the island the Avennorians called Darknar, for Barek thought they had found the lands of his ancestors. The ship never returned. This island we now know as the “Island of Doranthakar.”

1649-1648 B.S.

Mir’dark

In Northern Sarvonia is called the Vardýnnian Atonement. The Avennorians call it Mir'Dark, which in their language meants“Endless Night”. Many Avennorians die that year including Barek Swanhild.

1645 B.S.

Rekj starts further exploration

The youngest son of Barek Swanhild, Rekj is crowned king. He restarts the shipbuilding and the exploring of the seas that his father had started several years before the year of the “Mir'Dark” had killed his father.

1642 B.S.

Rediscovery of Aeruillin

A new ship is developed it is called a Barek, named after Rekj's father. It is larger, sturdier and carries a compliment of thirty crew members as well as the captain and nine officers. It has two masts instead of one. She is Christened "Starmir" and is captained by the daughter of Okar Snivild, Thea Snivild. She sets sail in late summer and returns in early summer of the next year. The crew brings back stories of a land that is almost all deserts (Aeruillin) and Okar also brings back people who she believes may be the people of the King. She tells the King she had to buy them from a place called Shan’Thai. Rekj anger is kindled, thinking that his people are still being sold as slaves. After he releases the slaves he begins to prepare plans to attack Shan’Thai and free his people. This began the Seven Hundred Year War.

Between 1640-806 B.S. (Approx.)

The Seven hundred years war

Rekj Swanhild starts and his successors continue the war to free his people from slavery. He and his successors send armadas of ships to attack Shan’Thai and its people to overthrow them and free the slaves. Their losses were uncountable. The Shan’Thai people and its city were just too strong and the time it took to rebuild ships, train armies, make weapons took its toll on the wealth, population and commerce of the Avennorians.

(I really doubt that a little bunch of people from one ship that went through decimation in the Chosen war would be able to wage war for hundreds of years, this is mostly unrealistic and absurd as well as illogical. They do not have the resources even if they have the money, to wage war for so long and so far away from their lands. It is very doubtful that they would have survived at all the war since the other side is much more powerful and would have come to their own lands, crushing any Avennorians there. I think you should revise this and make it a seven years war instead even though it’s unrealistic too. No kingdom the size of the Avennorians’ Kingdom could wage war more than a year. They have no resources, and they would need to cut down the entire forests in their lands to produce ships for 700 years of war and even then. No talking about the manpower, how can so few people be able to wage wars across the sea? They have a hard time winning battles against a few elves! How in hell are they suppose to survive a war with a whole nation that has a thousand times more people and resources than they do? They just don’t have the man power either.)

Between 806-803 B.S. (Approx.)

The Avennorian Civil war

In the winter of 806 b.S. the last successor of Rekj Swanhild, Eyfi Swanhild dies. His families’ wealth was depleted. He lost the throne to Anir Snivild, whose family, starting with Okar Snivild and his daughter Thea gathered tremendous wealth in trade. Though Okar and Thea hated slavery and fought against it. After their deaths their sons and daughters seeing a way to make tremendous wealth, dealt in the illegal trade of slaves as well as the legitimate commerce of whale hunting.

The Snivilds are famous for their expeditions and countless whale hunting and selling and trading of whalebone, oil and Spermaceti. He signs a treaty with the leaders of Shan’Thai and legitimizes the slave trade. However anyone wanting to do such business had to give a kickback to him. The price for doing so was 20% of the sale of the slave.

This starts a civil war between those who deem slavery as wrong and evil, the ones who were the progeny of slaves and those who believe in their rights and those who just want to profit from it. The war ends with an uneasy truce signed by Anir who decreeds sthat any slave who wants to be free is free and that those who want to remain with those who bought them must have their left ear pierced with a symbol of the family of which they belonged too. This satisfied both warring parties. Slave trading still continues but mostly the slaves are sold by their own families, either because of a debt owed or because the family needs money. Most of these slaves are girls.

Between 804-800 B.S. (Approx.)

The attack on the Tethinrhim Ria

Anir marshals troops against the elves in the Auturian Woods. Though he could care less about the cause of the war, he sees an opportunity for a land grab and to avenge the Avennorians against the Tethinrhim elves and attacks the Ria, the elven sovereign's housing. The elves already besieged and wearied from the battles against the other humans see their beloved woods being burned. When Anir and his troops attack their capitol and the Ria, the elves fight back with vengeance and push back Anir and his troops out of the woods and even burn down some of the outer settlements of the Avennorians. This defeat precipitates more attacks by Anir and each time they lose to the more experienced war fared elves. Finally in the late fall, early winter of 800 b.S. Anir gives up and just watches as the war continues. He and his people would sit out this war and gather up what is left, figuring that would be the best. Let the others do the fighting for him and he would come in and take what is left over. To Anir this seems liked the perfect plan.

Between 800-749 B.S. (approx.)

The Demise of the Avennorians

As the Avennorians sit out the First Sarvonian War ready like vultures to pick up the pieces, they do not take into account that the human tribe of the Erpheronians would hold them accountable for their actions and attack the Avennorians. Anir surrenders in the late summer of 749 b.s. He and his family are immediately beheaded. The Erpheronian king, Korpicor, and his armies use Marcogg as their staging base for the war against the elves. After the war has ended in 729 b.s. the King gave Marcogg and the lands back to the Avennorians but they had to pay tribute to the Erpheronian empire and were considered a satellite country of the Erpheronian kingdom.

(I would add after this: Seeing that the Avennorians were different physically from the Erpheronians and other people in Santharia. So the Erpheronians took them as freaks of nature and some even thought them to be demon’s child. As the Erpheronians conquered Avennoria, they massacred many Avennorian, especially the more ugly ones and the ones who had more predimoninant Avennorian features. After the war, the true Avennorians were only found in backward villages on the coast and isolated hamlets inland, other than that, the people living there were either ancient slaves of the Shan’Thai, they didn’t have the true Avennorian special features, and Erpheronians and their allies. Today, the Avennorians are becoming extinct and only a few isolated communities of these weird looking people are found along the coast of the province of the Kingdom of Santharia.)

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #2 on: 31 July 2002, 15:40:00 »

"This I am very doubtful, no ship can sail one year without re-supplying on land. Even the great full rigged ships of the renaissance on our world can’t do that. Lack of drinkable water as well as scorbu would decimate the crew and they would have mutinied a long time ago. I think that two months are the best a ship can do without re-supplying, especially a ship like that, I think this ship is a mono-mast or a bi-mast? Restricted rationing system would be necessary to go beyond one month of sailing for these small ships. I really think you should change this to a more pertinent and realistic time period. And there is no way a small crew of people could form an entire kingdom, maybe a village, but no kingdom. Ok, maybe a fleet of full rigged ships like 25 of them could do that since they carry lots of soldiers and marines, but a mono-mast or bi-mast? I don’t think so.) "
This isn't our world.

"The Avennorian kingdom is cleansed by the elven Xeuá magic.

(This I have a difficulty to believe, and I don’t think it’s possible. The elves wouldn’t heal some people they were at war with for a long time. Why would they do that? Unless the Avennorians were part of the force that battled with the elves.)"

The Elves did all they could to heal the land following the War of the Chosen.

"(I really doubt that a little bunch of people from one ship that went through decimation in the Chosen war would be able to wage war for hundreds of years, this is mostly unrealistic and absurd as well as illogical. They do not have the resources even if they have the money, to wage war for so long and so far away from their lands. It is very doubtful that they would have survived at all the war since the other side is much more powerful and would have come to their own lands, crushing any Avennorians there. I think you should revise this and make it a seven years war instead even though it’s unrealistic too. No kingdom the size of the Avennorians’ Kingdom could wage war more than a year. They have no resources, and they would need to cut down the entire forests in their lands to produce ships for 700 years of war and even then. No talking about the manpower, how can so few people be able to wage wars across the sea? They have a hard time winning battles against a few elves! How in hell are they suppose to survive a war with a whole nation that has a thousand times more people and resources than they do? They just don’t have the man power either.)"

I don't understand this. By this point they aren't just a group of people from one ship. They've grown. They've even rebuilt their capital. Recovered after the War of the Chosen. Generations have gone by since that first ship.

"(I would add after this: Seeing that the Avennorians were different physically from the Erpheronians and other people in Santharia. So the Erpheronians took them as freaks of nature and some even thought them to be demon’s child. As the Erpheronians conquered Avennoria, they massacred many Avennorian, especially the more ugly ones and the ones who had more predimoninant Avennorian features. After the war, the true Avennorians were only found in backward villages on the coast and isolated hamlets inland, other than that, the people living there were either ancient slaves of the Shan’Thai, they didn’t have the true Avennorian special features, and Erpheronians and their allies. Today, the Avennorians are becoming extinct and only a few isolated communities of these weird looking people are found along the coast of the province of the Kingdom of Santharia.)"

What are you talking about!?!? They're both human tribes. The differences would be in skin tones and hair colors. And who knows how different that was since there isn't much of a description for the Erpheronians. The Avennorian description is pretty vague even (and needs to be converted to peds).

Tarquet Galbar,
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #3 on: 31 July 2002, 22:35:00 »

well, just check the Avennorian physical description, it sounds like if they were crossbreeds with some fish or sea mamal. LOL

I understand for the elves in the Chosen war a bit, but did they do this to all even their old enemies and rivals?


About the people of one ship into a nation, that is genetically and scientifically totally impossible to have a small crew of 20 to 50 people colonize an entire kingdom. Interbreeding and genetic diseases would have decimated the entire population over time. If you read the first part about the impossibility of having one ship sailing for one year with no supplies and its small crew of a few dozen people founding and colonizing an entire kingdom by themselves, you would understand that the crew of one shipwrecked ship cannot colonize an entire kingdom!

In fact, after the thousands of years, that little bunch of people would have disappeared by being assimilated by the local people without any impact on those people's cultures because they were only like 50 or so people.

With 50 people, you cannot colonize an entire kingdom, those people would only have a village of a few hundred people in the present time in Santharia, no more.

By the way, the sailing ship isn't a colonizing ship, it's an exploring vessel. Second, it's not a space ship filled with thousands of colonist, it's a small monomast or bimast ship with a crew of twenty to fifty people depending on size of ship. And there is no way that they can sail for a year without landing for supplies, no ship and crew can do that. ships need repairs and its crew fresh water and supplies.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #4 on: 31 July 2002, 23:33:00 »

Well, if you don't like it, why don't you go back to your little world?

Tarquet Galbar,
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #5 on: 01 August 2002, 02:19:00 »

I think it's a valid point. This entry could be made a myth, however then it shouldn't be in the history section me thinks.
Don't know Art somewhere stated that Winlok wanted to look over the dates anyway. Maybe one or two dozen ships would be a more probable number with about 1000 people the least. I guess crossbreeding with the local population would give them even more people. The landing would then more mark the historical event that made the native population to rise from their dark age and develop an own cluture.

For the second part I'd think the reason the Erpheronians didn't erradicated the Avennorians because that would be slightly too bloody even for them. Also the distance between these kingdoms is quite big so they would need them as laborers and generally I guess the Erpheronians wouldn't see any ned to go berserk as long as they receive a good amount of tribute and none resists their rule.
So I don't have a problem with them being a bit tolerant conquerors here.
And as Tarq said they're humans that only differ slightly in appearance from others so whiler there could be predjudices en masse they're still seen as humans not like that stinkin' elves! ;)

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #6 on: 01 August 2002, 09:48:00 »

Thanks Koldar.... at least someone here has eyes and can read!


Well, did you know that the ancient greeks colonized many parts of the meditenarean as well as the pheonicians? And what happened to them? They disappeared! Not because they got massacred but got assimilated with the local folks and lost their culture. That's what's happening with the native americans and what is happening with the french Canadians, they are being assimilated by a larger more dominant group of people.

So if the Avennorians are to suceed as a people they should be isolationists, be a a bit racist about foreigners and people of different races to prevent breeding with other cultures. And of course, having a thousand people colonize an area.

Logically, a thousand people isn't enough. As an example, when the French colonized America they sent a total of 15000 french colonists over time and today, well, in Québec, there is a higher toll of heart diseases, genetic diseases like cancer and tumors, as well as malformation compared to anywhere in america because of interbreeding, and we were 15000 people in a little more than 400 years! Imagine the thousands of years for 1000 people! I don't think they would still be existing today.

I really think this part should be rewritten, I cannot work on a town that has a totally illogical past. I can't make a culture out of an history that cannot be. Because all villages inside a country has it's own cultural thing, no major changes but their own things nonetheless. If you want, I can rewrite the culture by copy pasting the things and using my format that I used for Gathis, my own world and to create worlds for friends too. It's more professional and much more precise and less general. It would be more detailed and give the players and gms a much more potable amount of info.

Oh, and Tarq, like someone said on this board already, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all, go back to your little gameboy advance and let the old guys talk about this. (Sorry, I know I shouldn't speak like that but crybaby here asked for it.)

So instead of a shipwreck, maybe we should say that the two exploring ships returned talking of vast new lands. Then the leader of these people allowed people to colonise these new lands and many many thousands of people came to the new lands and began to colonize the new lands. After a hundred years, more than 50000 people were living in the new lands, in several villages and one or two towns. After another century, population doubled from new colonists and population growth as well as new lands being colonized thus more food and resources.

I don't know whatreally happened to the fatherland of these people, were they conquered? If so, they wouldn't require to demand independance or proclaim their independance because of that. But if not, they may have to declare themselves independant.

You cannot create a new kingdom that will outlast any assimilation and interbreeding with only 1000 people, you need many thousands of people. I say more than 50000 would last a long time, but I think that if you want their culture to stay and not be forgotten or preventing them from creating a while new one, you need much more people. If not, well, the place will look like the united states, no real culture of its own, being assimilated by the spanish people from the south and orientals from the west. It's a multi-cultural country with no real culture of its own in a certain way. :)

I can come up with a better history, maybe I can work with the person who is working on Marcogg to get his/her vision on how the people should be. BTW, how can you make a town and village without knowing the culture and history of the people? You just can't create a community out of thin air without respecting the culture of the people. That's why I need to know the culture and the correct history of these people.

That's all for now, and thanks again Koldar. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 7/31/02 5:06:00 pm
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #7 on: 01 August 2002, 10:18:00 »

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Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 4:58:48 pm
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #8 on: 01 August 2002, 10:25:00 »

This is a more or less professional culture builder that I have found somewhere.

It's very accurate and MUST be made from top to bottom of the page, you cannot like make the military before knowing what kind of resources the people have, or make the religion before knowing their values and kinship, etc.

This is what I use for everyone, if someone prefers to use something else, well, I give him/her my work using this format and he transforms it into whatever he/she wants it to be.

But this format is the best there is unless you go even deeper into culture building which becomes more a scientific work than a hobby and a game. :)

I based my every cultures in my world on this format, and let me tell you, it's long and very hard, but the results are incredible and very logical.

Thank you for all who read that big post. It's really worth it. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #9 on: 01 August 2002, 10:57:00 »

Please make the final entry in the approbiate format, Feanor. only a reminder, but otherwise it'll get really difficult.

About the Avennorians: Why should the Avennorians not derive from the local population and the newcomers?

Colonization in ancient times and in the later Middle Ages was more or less about replaceing the ruling class not the rural population so in my opinion only marks the historical event where the Avennorian ancestors took over the rule of these lands. So 1000-6000 men are IMO more than enough for them to establish a new, stable ruling class and forge a new culture. Also, think about it, when the local population was less developed in many aspects they might even favour these newcomers and their way of life and assimilate well into their culture. The Ancient Avennorian culture would be the more dominant one and though the Ancestors of the Avennorian would merge into the mass of the native population they would be the igniters of the new culture: The Avennorians.


Also, the Greeks and Phoenicians colonized many parts of the Mediterran and they did not disappear till the Fall of the Roman Empire when new tribes and nations moved into the Region.
The Phoenician and Greek colonies however developed into own kingdoms who had a culture closely aligned to the Phoenician and Greek one. That you don't hear about them is plainly that the colonies developed into new, own nations. Cholchis, Bithynia, Macedonia, Carthage, Ptolomeic Egypt, were all Greek or Phoenician dominated nations.


In Santharia we do not have as many cultures as in the real world so the time frames in which cultures change are bigger. Otherwise we would go crazy! ;)  

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« Reply #10 on: 01 August 2002, 11:47:00 »

Feanor what you have down makes perfect sense, but this is fantasy and not your or my site. And everyone else doesn't seem to mind.

#1 In the early ages like BC. Small ships were often lashed together catamaran style, to form one big floating dock or ship. ancient historical ships

1) risk and long distance trade have been around for as long as recorded history, as has been 2) the arms race, which was once a naval arms race, so 3) woe betide the country or empire that gives up a position of strength on the seas, and 4) efficiency in port taxation and excellence in naval recruit training are synonymous with national success.

#2 Also remember this is fantasy, it is based on logic, but is truly illogical. That's how you have Golem's pushing ships along and appeasing gods for favorable winds.

#3 Since the French had a 100 Years War it's conceivable their was a 700 Years War. And if their was a 700 Years War, it's conceivable they sailed for one year.(see #1)

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« Reply #11 on: 01 August 2002, 11:52:00 »

Well, I would agree with you, Feanor, that 50 people isn't nearly enough to establish a kingdom. But about the culture developer. THAT THING'S LONG!!! Perhaps you should make a less lengthy version that people could use to reference, becuase herldy any people are going to look all of the way through that. Most woiuld much rather have a less confining scheme. While that is something that may help some people think, it would be far to restraining for others.

It seems sort of like including in the bestiary all about the allelles and certain traits of the animals, which isn't needed. Anyway, I'm more experienced in the development of plants/animals, so that's how I see it.

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« Reply #12 on: 01 August 2002, 12:28:00 »

First of all Winlok, I think you are doing the same mistake as many people I know do, you are confused with realism and reality and logic.

The world NEEDS to be logical and realistic, but not REAL. If you do not make the world a logical place, then it will make no sense, you will have no laws or order in the world. Anything could happen for no reason at all, just because a dm just felt that it would be nice to have this happen like that, or another dms kills his entire party because he felt mean and nasty that day.

So you are mixing apples with oranges here! Fantasy is something and logic is something else. Fantasy and reality are part of the same thing, while realism and logic are another gang. The world is Fantastic, okay, but it needs logic, realism and common sense.

The golems push ships because they were made that way, and they are animated by magic and that magic was made by someone. so this is logic and realism. They just don't exist because you want them to be like that, and has no reason of being there except that you want it like that. They have a story, a reason to be, and a reason to continue of being there.

Second, no ship, I repeat, NO SHIP in the renaissance or earlier period of time could navigate for more than a few months without resupplying! Hell, even today I don't think it's possible! food spoils and drinkable water disappears very quickly.

Third, a country will send one ship to explore, not an entire fleet. Yes, an entire fleet of explorers going each their own way, but not together. and an exploring ship could not make and entire kingdom because they would have a little crew with lots of room for food and water lasting for two months at most..

fourth, okay, at least you gave a reason for making the the few thousands of people being there until the current time. Having them as the ruling class is no problem, but only a few thousands is still too few and would have been assimilated by the locals or would have succumbed to interbreeding and genetic diseases such as cancer, heart diseases and malformations, even if they were nobles and rulers. You need many thousands of people to successfully colonise an area and as many to control one through thousands of years. I wouldn,t be here telling you this if it would have happened a century in the past, but it's thousands of years here, no culture in our own world is that old and survived without being destroyed or assimilated.

Fifth, France and Avennoria are very different. France had like a hundred times more people than Avennoria, they had like four to ten times more territory and thus resources, and finally, they are one people unlike avennoria which reunite at least two kind of people, the Avennorian rulers and local commoners. No country that small can make a war last more than a couple of years, ten at most, if they would do more, well, they would die out because all the young men would die at war instead of founding families. And this war wouldn't be constant, just battles here and there each year. This isn't France with a few hundred thousand people here, I'm sure that Avennoria at that time didn't have even near of 100000 people living in it. If it had that many people, a few hundred of years later, they would have reached half a million.

Avennoria is very small, and thus cannot support a large amount of troops, especially compared to the slavers of Shan Thai or whatever, forgot the name. lol  They would have been wiped out by the other stronger opponent unlike France who had an even match with england in the one hundred year war. It wasn't a constant war, but the resources of both country at the end was extremely low, so to make a seven hundred year war, you would need a powerful and rich country like the USA or USSR in a medieval setting to be able to do that, but it wouldn't be possible to have such a country because health care and agriculture isn't at the same level, thus making a war more than several years very unprobable, quasi impossible for 100 years and totally impossible for 700 years!

BTW, the one hundred wars I think was in the renaissance, not in the middleages. It was like 1400 or 1500 or something, forgot. I think gun powder existed.

And finally, I'll do the culture my own way, and then you tell me what goes where in your format. but this is of course if I do the culture, but I really cannot make anything without having the culture built. I really don't know how the person working on marcogg can do a town without a proper culture design. hmmm... Oh, and I wont work on the culture without him or her, and everyone working on the area. After that, I'll just copy-paste the things where you want them to be in your format, no big deal. It's just that I cannot do anything with the info you give, it's too little and general.

Except for these points, I have nothing against the things you say and agree with most of them too.

Thanks for replying. :)

BTW, do you like the format? It's very good, if not excellent.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #13 on: 01 August 2002, 12:57:00 »

Maybe calm down a bit. though I'm happy the discussion is based on argumentation I'm not sure it leads anywhere. So stay nice! ;)

To the one thousand not enough. The Ptolomeic dynasty ruled over egypt for centuries. They were Greeks, the important thing for them was only that. that they mingled with Egyptians didn't bother them much.

Also you assume that the people on the ship were the Avennorians right away. I only think they were the ancestors that started the conversion of these few strangers and the local population into one tribe.
Also as it is before the War of the Chosen I would really account that as a myth and don't worry too much about it. Numbers are always adjusted to the prosaic value they have to match (heroes grow more and more lonely and enemies multiply and multiply) so I'd zip that discussion right away. It only means we should consider adjusting that section of the entry.

About the 700 years war it really has to cleared up how that happen, esspecially Why? It is difficult to maintain a common enemy for such a period of time. The children don't know for what the ancestors fought so to speak.
E.g. The reason for the 100 years war taking so long was mainly because France didn't exist as we know it today. About one half of it was English. So what is summarized in the one hundred year war is mainly the disputes between the Frensh ruling house (which ruled only a portion of land smaller than Switzerland) and England who had some difficulties keeping the Frensh nobility at their side. When those ran one by one over to the Frensh king slowly the odds were changing until the English withdrew from the lands.

Also don't mix up medieval warfare with the mass-battles and industrialized warfare of the 20th centuries. Kings rarely recruited more men than they could afford. That is why the armies were relatively small. What hindered them most was also that they could not get money from unplowed fields so they could not pay soldiers if they draw too much peasants into the army. Also the times of war(of actual campaigns with battles) were usually set in spring and early summer so most of the year there were no real fighting except skirmishes (which doesn't mean that none suffered, the armies fed from the countryside = the peasants)
So my main problem about 700 years is why should someone fight so long.
The 100year long wars (Beside the Frensh-English War which took 113 years also the Peleponese War between Sparta and Athens took most of a century) were always a row of campaigns not a constant fighting at all fronts. For such wars there were plainly too few soldiers something that changed in the 20th century...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #14 on: 01 August 2002, 14:22:00 »

*twitch* Restraint sucks.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 7/31/02 10:11:26 pm
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