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Author Topic: Where I will post info on Chrondra  (Read 9806 times)
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #30 on: 03 August 2002, 18:22:00 »

Okay, thanks for clearing your point of view for the Avennorians and their history a bit, it's a bit clearer now.

Okay, maybe it did stop by on islands here and there. But the ship that was sent was an exploring ship, not a colonist vessel. So the crew would be (mostly) men alone if the ship was truly an exploration ship. No?

And yes, 25 couples wouldn't last three generations before being absorbed by the local population. Hell! Just check out the Franch Canadian, we were 15000 colonist from the province of québec to the mouth of the mississipi. You know what? We're being assailed from foreigners like Americans, oriental, middle-easters, africans, etc. from all side, that is why we qould like to become independant so that we would not disappear in two hundred years. Do you know what is the second most spoken language outside the province of québec in Canada? no, it's no longer french, it's chineese!!! So your little village of 50 adults wouldn't keep their cultural identities for more than three generations, the time needed for the survivors to die.

Genetically speaking, we, in québec, are the people who have the most heart diseases in whole of america. This is due to the close relations one had in his ancestry. Like distant cousins, and this was in 360 years of existance. I don't think 25 couples' culture would still exist after 1548 years, HELL! I don't even think my people in the real world will exist in 1200 more years because of immigration and foreign pressure, especially if we don't get our independance someday, so imagine the Avennorians.

A solution:

So if you want the Avennorian to exist, you must make the ship an exploring ship, that would come back and bring back strange fruits, vegetables and drawings of vast fertile lands to settle. After that, a steady flow of colonists would be lead to this place, until the fatherland falls, but until then, dozens of thousands of people coming all over their fatherland would have immigrated to the new lands.

As the fatherland fell or whatever happened to them, the colonist were sadened but yet happy to know about this. they were now free from taxes and were now a kingdom on their own.

So let's say that over a few generations after initial colonization to the end of the existence of their faterland, the population would be in the dozens of thousands because of children and constant immigration from their fatherland. But when the fatherland fell, they became more like the ruling class, because of their greater technology and knowledge they had versus the somewhat primitive local population found later in the colonization years.

Finally, a thousand years later, their initial culture would have completely disappeared because of the new needs, new physical resources, kinship rules, etc. to be replaced by a new culture, the Avennorian's modern culture. Their population would be mostly a mix of several different cultures, especially from neighboring lands (Like the USA but in the medieval setting) so that not true ancient Avennorians would remain except in the deepest most isolated villages in Avennoria. This would be before the invasion of the Erpheronians, after that, well, even fewer were left. The avennorians' original look is pretty lost after that thousand years of crossbreeding with locals and immigration from foreign lands to theirs. So now, few would look like the fishmen you describe in your doc, only the coastal communities would have many of them, and those with the original looks of the old Avennorian pre-chosen war, are only found in the most isolated village.

That's one of the solutions that I've thought of, the other wasn't really improving our problem, it's was pretty much like having one boat making an entire kingdom.

So, no, 75 people cannot make tens of thousands of people within just a couple of centuries, not even a thousand years or two. Even if they were isolated from outside influence in the Eden Gardens, they would die out due to genetical problems in the end.

Maybe we could help each other if you want, making the Avennorians more than they are just now. In short, they are colonists, that are sometimes in conflict with the elves, that participated in the war of the chosen, that has no record to what happened in the age of myths, that warred against the slavers for many long years (you didn't comment on that Capher), then waged war on the elves, were conquered by the erperonians by the back door, and now were nothing more than a vassal of the Santharian Kingdom.

If you want to know, the Avennorians would be the first to separate from the kingdom du to their origins. They would want their autonomy once again you know? :)

Like I said earlier, maybe we can make the Avennorians with my culture builder, then copy/paste our new info in the format that the Santharian Dream Team (lol) uses for the cultures. No big deal, but it works so much better with that culture builder, you start from the top then go piece by piece until the end of the doc, not skipping any steps on the way. after that, you have a complete culture.

I know, it's very tough and a bit long, but imagine that I have like over a fifty different "human" cultures in my own world, and I've done this to each of the major cultures that exists. That's not counting all the other "non-human" cultures that I've made. The point is, after you have completed this, building cities, monuments, strongholds, etc, for these people becomes very easy since you know who and what they are, their needs, their values and kinship, superstitions, etc.

So ring if you want to work on the Avennorian, because I really cannot make a town out of the so little information that is available. I don't know how people would do a town from that amount of cultural info, I have no clue, he would need to invent all sorts of things and this might not be along the peth of the initial idea of the creator of those people. That is why I can't create a town or it MIGHT ruin the vision you had of the Avennorians.

So if you can help me out by answering a few questions and maybe increase the amount of information on the Avennorians in the process, I'll gladly return the favor too. :)

I am a box of ideas, never ran out of them. lol

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #31 on: 04 August 2002, 00:09:00 »

Please note in your concepts that we've decided to do changes to important dates to keep everything consistent! Winlok has some details on shipping dates. The Era of Sailing starts around 5700 b.S., so in general everything before this time has to be moved in this direction and is of mythical nature only.

Era of Silence: Unknown - around 5700 b.S. In this time
myths happen where mainly Gods are still involved
Age of Myths: 5700 b.S.-1655 b.S.=other myths

I'd also vote for not using too accurate dates at the Age of Myths (e.g. as you did with 11348 b.S. for the Founding of Ciosa). Everything happening during the Age of Myth and has to remain more or less vague to a certain degree, Mainly use ca. dates.


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Capher
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« Reply #32 on: 04 August 2002, 10:49:00 »

Ok Art,  and Ferin, if we decide to do this with the Avennorians, then eventually it would have to be integrated with all of the other tribes on the site.  And though I believe after looking at your "World Builder" the tribes and Sarvonia would be filled with detail and rich with flavor we are looking at a tremendous amount of work.  And I am afraid may change the "Dream" and that is what concerns me the most.  

Besides all of that, Art and those who created Santharia, its tribes, towns and everything else would have to approve of it.

Oh, and one more thing, please do not make fun of those who tried with the best of their ability to create the tribes, history and places of Santharia/Sarvonia/Sorren.  Just because they did not have the expertise you seem to have does not mean they did not try?  Give them all a tremendous amount of credit for this "Dream"

P.S.S.  I did not mention the other part of your questions because the only abnormality the Avennorians had was something that was developed over thousands of years of "Micro-Evolution"  Their ears and circulatory systems adapted to the depths that they dove in the ocean, until it became part of their genetic makup.

Also, you keep on saying that the Avennorians would be swallowed up by the local people.  My question is; What local people?  There were none, except elves and elves and humans at that time did not even associate with each other, much less mate with one another.

However, like I stated in the begining.  If you wish to pursue this and if it is allowed by Art and the others, I will be willing to help, but remember this is Arts and the others Dream, not yours!!!  If you wish to contribute, I am sure your most welcome, but please, I beg of you, please do not change the Dream into one of your own worlds.

Thanks for listening and caring enough to help.

Capher.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #33 on: 04 August 2002, 11:27:00 »

Maybe you're making it yourself a bit complicate, Feanor? While you have some valid points I think you overestimate their importance. the entry pretty well covers the way the Avennorians live so their cities would follow this mood pointed out in the entry. While it is good to discuss points that seem not to fit I think they can't hinder one thinking up the present-day city. ;)

Capher, no concern about the world builder. While I find it interesting I think it would be too technical too my taste. I favour an idea I turn into a kingdom without letting myself getting restricted so as said for me it is interesting but not liek something I'd use. ;)


Feanor, I think your mentioned problems about one colony ship being notenough to populate a kingdom and the 700 years war is valid to some sense.

However I see no problem why this story about the one ship shouldn't be the myth of the Avennorians about their landing in Santharia?
Capher, I don't think that all humans came from Fav'ai'al'calar after the war, this would spark another Jihad about the question if myths are true in Santharia, or not, eh Art? ;)  
I would see these first millenias as the way the Avennorians later "reconstructed" their history so wether the first Avennorians merged with a rural population and formed the Avennorian tribe or a great amount of Pre-Avennorians landed in Santharia in the beginning seems not so important to me. That took place in the age of myths so highly insecure information I guess. ;)

Currently I think the most important thing would be to get the new timeline of the tribe working, the rest are things that should be given thought then.


Sidenote: Art? Capher? Maybe we should generally agree on putting the earliest time of confirmable historical events after the War of the Chosen? Before that everything ever written down could have been lost due to this war and only after that we have something inbetween history and myth? even then we're dealing with more than 10 000 years of history that has to be pointed out more or less. I just have some problems with having knowledge about something that took place before a devastating, world destructing war.

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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #34 on: 04 August 2002, 12:53:00 »

sorry if the things I said read mean, but it wasn't my intention, the works and ideas are great, I already said that, you know, nothing against anything.

What I mentioned was just a solution and idea to solve the problem, nothing else.

Capher, we can use the Culture builder to build the Avennorians but we would only need to copy/paste the info in the SD format and there is no problem doing that. We use the CB to make the cultures and then we put the info in SD format, no big deal. So it wouldn't change anything in the dream except adding more detail and colour, and i am sure that the creators wouldn't mind that, I know I wouldn't. :)

If you say there wasn,t any other people in Santharia at that time, where did all those other tribes came from??? anyways, I think Koldar answered your question already. :)

and no again, I don't want to change the dream, only to put more detail in it, making it more realistic, pertinent and keep it an out of the ordinary rpg world.

"P.S.S. I did not mention the other part of your questions because the only abnormality the Avennorians had was something that was developed over thousands of years of "Micro-Evolution" Their ears and circulatory systems adapted to the depths that they dove in the ocean, until it became part of their genetic makup" Well, well, I thought genetical changes and evolution wasn't possible in the SD... that is weird no? Well, that's what some people told me in another forum. hehehe

Yayaya, we already agreed that the one ship was a myth, it was just an answer to Capher, Koldar. While 700 year war isn't just possible, well, not like the French-english war, but something less open, like the underground railroad I mentioned, or raids, or privateering, but not open warfare, the place is too small to take on such a big enemy. But the 700 years wars could be a myth too btw, it could be something else than a war also.

And the doc on the Avennorian is like their stone age not modern age. A LOT can happen in a few hundred years, so imagine in a thousand years. Being in huts made out of whale bones and sea stuff is pretty darn primitive, so in the modern day, especially after the Erpheronian invasion, the new leaders would have teached the lesser tribe new technologies and ways to build things, so that in modern age, you would find typical Avennorian buildings only in the old parts of each town and in the old villages that were spared by all the wars the Avennorians went through.

One thing is for sure, you need a real timeline. Mythical timeline are only valid to a single culture, not to all cultures in the world. So if we would see this as a mythical timeline, let's continue the way the history was made, and say that the myths are from the elven cultures. Having a detailed universal timeline in-game would be quite unprobable, we, in the 21st century, we know barely of ancient times before christ and this is with carbon dating and such scientific methods. So having an old timeline would be very improbable, at least, not a very specific ones, especially for the most ancient parts. Only the elves would have the capacities to record history due to their long lifespan.

So we would need to adjust the myths and legends according to each individual culture. I know, it's a lot of work, and lots of time, but my mom always said that if you want to do something, do it right. :D    I am only suggesting what could improve greatly the dream, don't want to modify it in any ways, just increasing the amount of colour and detail in it.

Cultures are the most difficult things to do, there is a lot of details and work to be done, but once you've done one, the others will be easier to do, much like a new software you just purchased. It takes me one day of work to logically build an entire culture, quite long, but what is worse is that it is very hard to do, you need to think alot making things logical and making sense as well as staying creative and interesting to read. Quite harduous, that's why I was happy to know that you weren't creating new races in SD, because for eac new races, there is the possibility of having dozens of different cultures.

The current Avennorians are logically a mix of the people that lived there before them, Erpheronians and the neighboring tribes. So having a really pure Avenorian would be quite rare and only found in the most isolated places in Avennorian province today.

Yes, a small amount of people cannot maintain their culture if a larger and/or more sophisticated culture is present nearby, because their culture will disappear over time and be replaced by the other. Much like what happened in many countries in of our own world. Conquering without armies.

Remember that Avennoria is smaller than the american colonies' lands before independance btw, it's like 200-300 wide by 1000 long at it's biggest in time. Dunno if they are Km or miles, but it looks pretty darn small to me, it wouldn't be able to support lots of people, especially in a medieval setting. there are lots of hills and mountains too, reducing the amount of arable land required for agriculture, having a forest full of elves preventing hunting and clearing makes things even harder. So think about it and you'll see that things like 700 years wars, and huge stuff liek that aren't really possible logically. I estimate by the size of the place that there shouldn't be more than 200,000 to 250,000 of humans and people living with the humans, higher than that would cause famine and overpopulation I think. What do you think the population should be?

Ok, so case closed on everything that happened before the age of myths since it is too far away for humans to record and should be left as stories to scare children. I would put anything before the Erpheronians as myth too because the history is written by the victors, so the Erpheronian timeline would be used throughout the Santharian kingdom except maybe the allies they had during that war. So no Avennorian timeline would be found, maybe in the library of an old magician somewhere that was spared and past down from generation to generation, but certainly not in a library, if they are advanced enough to have a library. lol

Atimidor is right, using specific dates for things that happened more than a certain time ago is wrong and should be vague and approx. But like I say above, if you make such a timeline, only the elves would have such a calendar, and more importantly, only the most civilize elves would have it, no other races or culture since they don't live long enough and some don,t even have the knowledge or technology to do so.

i think I've answered to everybody's questions and replied to everyone... :lol

thanks for replying so soon btw guys. :)  

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #35 on: 05 August 2002, 08:26:00 »

Just a short note concerning the world builder thingy:

We have elaborated a system here in Santharia, which covers the most important aspects of each culture. It is our intention to apply this system to all existing tribes/cultures in the world of Sorren. Not all tribes have been adjusted to this system yet, so there's still work to be done. So it's logical that we won't change this system until we haven't elaborated all tribes according to this system. If these basics are all covered, we can still elaborate more details later on at various tribe and eventually add further sections etc. As for now this hasn't any priority, so just stick to the system please in the final entry and treat sections you think you definitely need to create as subsections of existing sections. I don't to have lots of detailed information, so just go ahead, just make sure not to turn current organization upside down, okeydokey? ;)  


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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #36 on: 05 August 2002, 10:28:00 »

OK, LOL :lol


I will try.


Just joking.

Ok, Chander, we got the okie dokie from big boss, we have a little bit of loose and can work a litle bit on the culture but more on the region. So if you can, get a hold of my e-mail, icq, MSN, or whatever you prefer among these and we'll chat a bit about what I was wondering about leaving this forum for info on Chrondra alone. :)

Thank you

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Capher
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« Reply #37 on: 06 August 2002, 04:18:00 »

Hm.. Ok, I have given this much thought.  Feanor, lets use the Avennorians as an experiment in your world builder concepts.  If it turns out ok, and Art like it we will intergrate it into the main site, if not, well then we will try and work with what we have.  We will use all available data including the new  Dates and information concerning how entries should be considered before the  War of the Chosen

I think we can safely assume that after the war, we can really start to build and use accuarate dates and so forth always taking into account the historical timelines already set up.

If this is agreeable to you.  Then start doing your pasting/copying thing and post it in the Tribes/Races thread under the heading Avennorian Exp. and I will read what you come up with and comment and help you along the way to get a sense/feeling of how I percieved the Avennorians and thier original homland and people to be.

Ok?  Any questions?  Any more comments from you Art, or suggestions?

Capher.

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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #38 on: 06 August 2002, 11:25:00 »

Ok, no prob.

And if Art and the big heads of SD don't agree, well, we'll just move our work inside the SD format anyways, increasing the amount of detail on the Avennorians, so no time woudl be lost.


Ok, I'll put the city aside, and work on the culture first. But you must understand first that this culture we are working on will be the modern Avennorian culture not the primitive or the ancient one like the one in your doc. The one in your doc seems to be of stone age or maybe copper age or something like that, I doubt the rich and powerful live in huts and houses made out of whale bones and seashells. Ok, maybe as decoration, but not made entirely of that, especially since the invasion of the Erpheronians, they would have started to build the Erpheronnian way since they were a superior tribe.

So this culture will be from like three generations in the past to the current, and maybe a little older than that since there wasn't any major events in Avennoria for a couple of hundreds of years.

Other than that, we can work on it easily. I have finished the map of Chrondra, I'll get back to it's description once we have finished the culture of the Avennorians. Be patient. :)  

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Capher
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« Reply #39 on: 06 August 2002, 13:29:00 »

I will, always am.

Capher.

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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #40 on: 06 August 2002, 22:36:00 »

Ok Capher and the worldbuilding dudes, first step is done and is in the Race and cultures thread.

Awaiting your comments and additional info that I might have missed or are simply unknown to me. :D  

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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #41 on: 21 August 2002, 23:31:00 »

Ok, I think that Chrondra shouldn't have more than 2000 inhabitants in the best part of the year, with a minimum of 1750 in the worst part of the year.

Most lives in old shacks and single room houses of very small stature, the core of the town has been replaced by modern building such as the Baron's Manor and a nice Hotel in front, as well as many other industrial and commercial buildings.

Some buildings have special purpose while others are simple and have no use except look and/or maybe residential.

Since this is an old town of lesser importance, the Erpheronian invasion wouldn't have occupied it for a very long time, and would have simply put a lord and a loyal amount of guards to keep the population under control. So very few people in Chrondra are pure Erpheronians, most are either a mix of Avennorian and neighboring clans or more or less pure inland Avennorians lacking the predominant features of a coastal Avennorian. Even maybe half Avennorian, half Erpheronian.

The exports of the city would be high quality arrows, finely crafted bows,  some surface common metals found east of Chrondra but still in the lands of the Baron, and some crops from neighboring farmlands. Other produced resources are just enough for local use.

Imports would be steel and/or iron, horses (minor import), heavy metals (gold, silver, etc.), gemstones, spices, seashells, whale derived products. Maybe some others but these are the ones that comes up to my mind. :)

After you have aknowledged this, I'll move on to detail the town a lot. :D

That's all for now.

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« Reply #42 on: 22 August 2002, 12:15:00 »

Guess this looks fine so far. Check out similar Places entries like Nepris or Parthanul, and try to make your entry according to the scheme. I guess it would also be good to include a special section (like Talia did in Strata) where you mention and describe the most important buildings of Chrondra a bit, some sort of short sight-seeing tour:)  


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