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Author Topic: The Ulvur Chronicles  (Read 9255 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #15 on: 23 June 2004, 14:51:00 »

This is a truely fantastic myth of the origine of the Ulvur and the reason of why they life today as they do and why. Greatly told, well thought out.

My problem now:

Topic to discuss: „Every myth has somewhere a grain of truth in it, a reason, why it is is written as it is, somehow. „
We had currently a discussion, how to deal with creation myths, should they be mere myths, should they have above spark of truth. How about the old Santharian belief - is it older than those in Nybelmar? Should somehow then something be preserved and found, even if converted to something else?


Is the midth of Sarvonia the cradle of the races? Have the races then migrated from there in different waves, after a disaster the Santharian elves call the burning of the tree in their myths?

So far, every creational myth now created could exist parallel, yours is somehow embracing all.

You are currently designing this all new, and though I like it as it is, in itself, I don‘t know, if I want the Ulvur be the first race as what we sometimes call „fact“ from the developpers view
As I see it in your timeline - you set it indeed at the beginning of your History timeline.

For now I would prefer your Ulvur coming out of this cradle as well, for they are similar to the other races. Well, maybe I need just some time to adjust to that new thought , but on the other side somehow I think we should pay tribute to the history of this site, and then  Avá is the reason for the beginning of this world, though forgotten by many.

But enough for today, I will read on tomorrow.

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Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 6/22/04 22:56
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« Reply #16 on: 23 June 2004, 16:04:00 »

Quote:
We have now the year 1664, are you looking in the future?

I had no idea what the current date was, since it's nowhre to be found... I just took a chance at that one. It doesn't matter really;)  

About the modern terms; I don't know when those terms came to be...  I don't see any problem wiht them, and I can't really find any other terms based in say medival ages. Any suggestions?

Quote:
Well, as i said already, I don‘t think that Ximax is really interested in things which happen so far away, and are not magical as they know it. And, the more significant reason - it would probably not become a part of the compendium, when stored in Ximax.

I just thought that the Academy could have some interest in old myths and such which would perhaps tell tales of ancient magics... since the spell 'red frenzy' shares its name with the Ulvur's berserker mode they might have some ancient secrets deep inside their halls;)   But on the other hand, wh wouldnt the Academy have any interest in the compendium? Aren't they interested in new discoveries?

Quote:
n the following documents  of the history of the Ulvur up to the current day will be told.  sounds strange for me, maybe presented instead of told?

Err... what is the 'of' doing there? I wrote that 'in the following documents, the history of the Ulvur up to the current day will be told. Ahh, saw it... i forgot the comma;)   And yeah, I think that presented sounds better:)  

'
Quote:
As you see, I have just started to read your entry. But I skimmed over it briefly before, and what concerns me, is its length. I‘m known as well as producing lengthy entries, but I see as well, that I‘m turned away, if something seems to be long AND complicated, not too easy to read as Dala‘s letters. So I would propose, to split this entry up in several. I don‘t know yet, how to do the rest, but one idea is, to do a persons entry about this researcher (you have already a lot, you could integrate what you have as a prologue.) So at the myths, a short notice and link to this man would suffice, and your entry is already a bit shorter.
Hmm, well, I don't know the limit of entries. But anyway, this is the only way I could write the whole thing - it's impossible to separate history from myth, as already proven in the human and elven history.  This is of course the reason for me posting it in the library; to divide it into sections and such, and judging from how you divided it I'd say we're on a good way;)  . But anyway; i think a person's entry would be a bit unecessary... I just added him to give a realistic reason to how and why the Ulvur history is suddenly recounted. It would have to be a very short person's entry then;)  

Quote:
There might arouse a problem. If the sun-disk-moon model will be accepted, the sun and the moon won‘t follow each other, because they are on oposite sides of the disk.
uhhhm... then how does the day and night lapse go? Or is it just constant day in one part of the world and night in the other part?;)  

Quote:
 Ermm, where do they suddenly come from? How ancient?
All spirits come from Rimjora, but some of these spirits were corrupted by Uhrum. It's kind of hard to judge these things if you haven't read teh whole thing...;)  

Quote:
Joining??  this madness did even newer races, some of which were devious from the start which?
No, joined. It's past tense. I thought of the orcs and trolls here.. is it really that hard to figure out?:veryconfused  

Well about all history being tied together: that was exactly what I was trying to do; Ginnungarja and Rimjora combined are basically Avá, Drimuxargaur is Coór, Nifelgrim is Ghelgath etc... But remeber also that this is entirely from the Ulvur's own point of view, and they themselves belive that they were first. I never said that this should be THE story.
I just wanted to give Cyhalloi an interesting and colourful history with the Ulvur, since before them, it had been neglected beyond belief;)   Of course everyone doesn't want the Ulvur to be the 'first'. But in THEIR belief they are. I thikn the history of all races should be like that; elusive and with some major similarites; but still with different interpretations. It makes the relationships between the races much more interesting doesn't it:)  
And again, I had no idea you were discussing such things. I just told Arti I was about to write the Ulvur history and tie it together with the rest of Santharia history and he said ok.

Finally, thank you very much for the praise and the criticism, but most of all for bearing with the lenght and complexity, although it's hardly comparable to the ACTUAL, original, non-Santharian Ulvur mythos;)   Of course I want to keep things simple as well, but I want to keep it on a serious level and not writing another Harry Potter novel;)   I am afraid this is just about as 'simple' as I can do.

P.S. To get back briefly to the person entry on the chronicler Haramith; how about gathering the journal entries and adding a link to the Ulvur main entry, but also to the complete Ulvur chronicles(without the journal entries of course). If the Ulvur chronicles can't be neither a myth or history entry, it could be a library entry. Links to these chronicles would of course be added in the Ulvur main entry as well.   .  

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Edited by: Isilhir at: 6/23/04 0:09
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« Reply #17 on: 29 June 2004, 14:27:00 »

Note - I discovered too late that Talia had done more or less the same already, but anyway, bette twice than not at all, hope they are mostly supplementary... The text will need some further additional comments regardless from the corrected things, suggestions on what to add or change here and there, but for this I first need to see the full picture, so I first need to go through the whole text before I can make proposals. Thús getting the Ulvur Chronicles up may last a while longer, but dealing with important myths just needs some time;)

Ok, I start to check this step by step. As usual the typical commenting scheme applies.

Orange - Comments
Yellow - Changes
Grey - Unclear sentences

Prologue:
The Lost Chronicler


Journal entry, Fallen Leaf 19th, 1657 (date fixed, we have 1664, month names: humans would use the Tharian form, not the Styrásh name)

The myths of where the mysterious wolf-men known as the ulvur (you only use a capital letter at the Ulvur entry itself, otherwise your refer to them as "ulvur", just like you refer to "humans" and "elves" in lowercase - I'll fix that in the following without marking it) come from are many and vast, but learned from various sources; mainly elven, this legendary beastfolk might have played a bigger part in the past of the world than what we at first even dared to imagine. But if so, why have they not been mentioned in the ancient scrolls as anything more than legends?

I will try to discover the truth behind this mysterious race, but so far, all I can offer are mere speculations. What seems to be accurate though, is that the ulvur are not some kind of demons or wraiths of dark powers; even less the cursed, moon-struck men the tellers of urban legends in the Cyhalloian settlements so persistingly warns us travellers about. There is something ancient and ethereal about them, yet they seem to be creatures of flesh and blood just like the next man, elf or whatever that dwells in the world, and not necessarily puppets of evil.

The cold bites, and even my sturdy guide seems to become less and less enthusiastic about the long road ahead. Cyhalloi may be a beautiful, wintery wonderland in the daily sun, but soon the night will fall, and the Cyhalloian nights are far from kind. Still, I will not let such things hinder me.

The recent, rumoured battles between the ulvur and snow trolls, and even some of the sinister Kasumarii tribe has troubled the elders of the Ximaxian Academy greatly, and even if our king will not pay heed to their warnings, this matter must be inspected closer. Travelling as far north as possible, I will search for any sign of the ulvur and try to record things as I see them with my own eyes. My funds should be enough to hire a couple of trustworthy bodyguards; at least with trust as far as money will buy it. Whatever is the trade of the ulvur; be it the savage, bloodthirsty beasts the locals claim they are, or indeed something more and perhaps even a race sentinent at our very own level, I will recount in my documents.

If i return.

-Haramith Horrand, chronicler of the Great Library

In the following documents the history of the Ulvur up to the current day will be told. As these are based on the journal entries and various scribblings of a missing chronicler of the Compendium, they are not to be taken as official documents and are currently open for discussion. They are however very detailed, and the chronicler in question was during his time in the Library's service a clearly sane and highly intellectual young man, so perhaps there is in fact some sort of truth in the extraordinary tales he recounts.

Hamarith Harrand, as his name was, had volunteered as researcher for the Compendium and was sent out in the Library's name to the cold, northern lands of Cyhalloi; the east island in particular, in order to investigate the recent, well-founded rumours of battles between the snow trolls, the Kasumarii tribe and the mysterious Ulvur. When he had not returned after the designated time he had planned to spend on his research (that is several years), a scout party of volunteers was sent on an expedition to discover what might have happened to him. All of the Cyhalloian locals kept silent about him, but after hours of persuasion, intimidation and various forms of bribes these half-torn, weathered pages of Haramith's journal were finally recovered. We have managed to separate what he wrote about the daily happenings from the actual records of ulvurian myth. These records are obviously not complete, and several parts are missing still, but a basic flow is evident, and with things related to both our own and the elven mythologies. Thus, we have done our best to integrate the already evident myths concerning the ulvur with what Haramith has written, and hope that we could manage to fill most of the gaps.


Chapter I:
Of The Ulvur, The Other Races And The War Against The Chaos


In the beginning, there was Ginnungarja, an infinite cloud of mist. It was everything, and yet it was nothing; for all that surrounded it was the great Nothingness; the Never, and yet as mist, Ginnungarja had no form; no body or shape. But at some point of turning, there came to be two opposite elements in each end of Ginnungarja. One was of infernal, burning fire, and the other was of the coldest of ice. As Logor, the fire, and Nifel, the ice met, a chaotic battle between the elements errupted, and from the clash sparks flew and were engulfed by the Nevermist; thus giving form, body and shape to parts of the mist. And the very greatest of the sparks gathered many other sparks to itself, and it grew into an element of its own; almost equal to Logor and Nifel. And as of this, this new element came between the two battling ones and brought peace to them; uniting them and itself in a perfectly balanced trinity. The new element grew and grew into a beautiful Ash-Tree; its roots took root in the fiery core that was Logor, and its crown touched the frozen roof that was Nifel. Surrounding the Tree(suggest to write a capital letter here) and floating above Logor was now a great sea; another of the great sparks from the elemental battle. It cooled the top of Logor's burning realm, and the fire stiffened and became the foundations of stone that the ground has rested upon ever since.

As time passed, the stone and the Great Tree came to grew into each other; merging and intervening, until the world as we know it at last was made whole. Logor's fire now burned deep within the world, and the roots of the great tree, its trunk and branches now joined the foundations of stone to keep the earth ground firm and steady, and its crown was now the only thing visible on the surface in the shapes of the forests, grass, bushes, mosses and all other greenery. The stone had grown into tall mountains that touched the very breath of Nifel; for that was what the clouds in the sky came to be called. The sea now rested in the great hollows of the world, and broke off into various shapes that constituted all the lakes and rivers.

Two more of the great sparks had now also risen, and these took their places in the sky, and circled around the world; constantly following each other. They were Ho-loga; the sun, and Mon-loga; the moon, and thus the lapse of the day and the night came into the world.

As the third element had divided and merged its body with Logor to form the world, its great spirit had now both the great earth, the sea and all plants as host; though still connected to Nifel, and the eternal Ginnungarja that surrounded them all. The third element let thus its innermost essence awaken, and it now had a spirit. It was now Rimjora; the All-Mother; the Creator; the One Mother, and she let her great spirit split into lesser parts; yet connected still. Her essence was in all, but even so, the new little spirits gained essences of their own. Rimjora now took a new shape; a great, silvery wolf, and whenever in that form she would go under the name Ulrivja; the Mother of Wolves, and the first spirits that emerged from her own came to take the same shapes as her, but much smaller. Eons passed, and more spirits came from Rimjora. Slowly they grew into a multitude of beings; each with their own part to play in the drama that was the world. Rimjora guided them, told them secrets, loved them, and let them become one with her again, as there would contstantly awaken new spirits to live in the world. The endless cycle was completed; birth, life and death, and through the new spirits, the world itself lived, as they lived through the world. And Rimjora was the one who would ever direct the whole show. Nature had come to be.

At this point, the oldest and fairest of Rimjora's children; the wolves, were blessed by a spark of Ginnungarja itself. Rimjora gave a small part of them different essences. Their minds would grow, and thus they became sentient. These new wolves felt as if they had awoken from an unearthly long sleep, and as if in a dream they had been told by Rimjora, in her own special way, that they must watch over her world where and when she cannot, and that they must also guide and watch over their own kin, the wolves, the most. And so it came to be, that the new wolves changed in shape, and their new minds became stronger and stronger. And yet as they discovered new secrets; the arts of creating things of their own and such, they never left Rimjora's side. They always lived and walked close to her, both in flesh and spirit, and built up great halls of their own. Rimjora gave them the empty shells of which the spirits now rejoined Rimjora's essence to create their tools and houses and all the other things. They were still as close to their wolfkin as they had ever been, but they stayed away from the other creatures of the world, unless when hunting, and instead watched them in secret. But there were some exceptions made for ancient, powerful spirits that through Rimjora's essence could teach them her lores. The new wolves took a new name to distinguish themselves from the old wolves, yet pay tribute to their common affinity. They were now the ulvur.

---

To be continued...


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« Reply #18 on: 30 June 2004, 15:26:00 »

Ok, next part...

Chapter II: Of The Ulvur And The Other Races

By the weave of the Nevermist, time passed for countless seasons, and new beings emerged from Rimjora's womb, and some of them were very alike the ulvur, both in appearance and mind. The first of these new, sentient races were the alver; the Elfkind. They were fair and wise like the ulvur, but they did not share their affanity with the wolves. From which branch of Rimjora's ethereal tree-body these enigmatic creatures came from none now can tell save Rimjora herself. Clear it was however, that the alver loved and cherished their All-Mother almost as much as the ulvur themselves. And the ulvur sensed this, and so they let a heavy part of their divine mission of guidance for Rimjora's children concern the alver. With the help of their old tutors of Rimjora's lore; her powerful spirit-children, the ulvur taught the alver the arts of hunting, crafting, building and such material business, but also the lores of Rimjora, and how to be a true part of her world. Long the two races lived in peace together, and many of the alver joined the ulvur in their roles as guardians of nature.

Then came the dvargar; the dwarf-kind. They were not tall, but they were strong and proud, and they took great pleasure in the art of crafting, and the skills of the dwarven smiths would soon surpass even those of the ulvur. The dvargar did usually not take much time for the ulvur's teachings of the lores of Rimjora, but they still showed respect to their All-Mother and knew what to do and what was against Rimjora's will and needed to be avoided..

Shortly after the dwarves had come, the maner saw the light of the day. They called themselves humans, and they were tall like the alver, but not as fair. Their appearances were more varied, but they all still shared common traits. The maner were fast learners, and loved especially the arts of crafting, building and hunting. They were the first to doubt the ulvur's teachings. As their minds became lost in the dealings of material arts and things (Uhmmm... that's not expressed very well, especially the combination "material arts" seems weird. Maybe something like "worldly matters" would be better here, or a reference to "an adherence to the things they saw, not what they were".), their bond to their All-Mother became weaker and weaker. Some of them still took great pleasure in the lores of Rimjora, but more and more of them cared less and less for them, and soon, some maner would forget them completely. This concerned the ulvur and the alver, whereas the dvargar cared more for their exchange of crafting ideas with the maner. (Maybe the difference between the maner and the dvargar could be stressed at bit better. Both seem to be described as materialistic here. Humans are the race, which is usually known to be the warmonging race, while the dwarves are more stubborn, so maybe you can create this difference here more precisely in a sentence or two.) The ulvur and the alver tried to desperately talk sense into both the dvargar and the maner, but not many of the two races would listen. And as of this, the first dark thoughts were born amongst the young races. Internal struggles, clan wars, greed, jealousy, bloodlust and the like would torment not only the races themselves, but also Rimjora's own world. This madness was even join by the newer races, some of which were devious from the start, and some even true monsters. They came to be called the tursar. Something beyond the young races' own minds had disturbed the balance of the world and the cosmic trinity itself. The ulvur did not know what, but they knew that not even the darkest thoughts could have turned so many pure-hearted creatures, and especially not any children of Rimjora, wicked in such a short time. So they made a painful decision. They broke their spiritual oath to Rimjora, and forced themselves to leave the guidance and peacemaking to who they trusted the most, the alver, and left the chaos to search for answers to the dark riddles.

---

Ok, some general comments at this point, as I read Talia's comment concerning the question about the cradle of the world according to the elven myth, the migration of the races and so on.

Well, as you can see we have the Tree of Life theme repeated here, which we also have at the elven myth of central Sarvonia, though in different form. That's ok in my point of view, and actually a good example on how a very dominant elven myth resonates in a completely different culture. There are many similarities in the myths, like Rimjora (nature) representing Avá in a way, the birth of the races etc. Various details compared to the elven myth may be lost, others are added, and some things are completely twisted, a very prominent example being the fact that the ulvur become the central race and that the story continues in a different way than in elven myth.

However, the myth is in many ways still the same. I think that it is quite normal that the focus shifts to the race, which re-interprets the already very common myth, takes elements they like and derive other elements from this new focus. In this respect it isn't really important if the cradle of the world - seen only from the practical/un-theological point of view - was located in Sarvonia and people migrated north and became ulvur, or if ulvur were first and Sarvonians derived from them. At least it isn't important for the myth told here, though we might stick to the Sarvonian scheme as a "scientifically realistic" blueprint, to which we revert whenever we actually need it to derive things in a probable historical way. But here at the myth itself we only know there is obviously a common root, and many, many things between actual history and the first appearances of the races are covered in a mythogical fog - and the fact that this sometimes heavy fog exists and doesn't give a clear view on e.g. the Sarvonian beginning of the world is what makes things that interesting. Sure, the elven and the ulvur myth contradict each other, but even if the cradle of the world is actually in Sarvonia, the ulvurian myth has its justification as a natural transformation - and the foggy clouds of myth never really contradict history, but simply co-exist with all its contradictions.

A timeline can at any rate be only an approximation, which scholars could try to define based only on very loose mythical material. I would therefore also see the timeline as an attempt of a Compendium writer to see ulvurian myth in concordance with a possible elven myth, based on a similar timeframe and state this at the history part then as well of the ulvur entry. Which means: The timeframe in this case would be more determined by the Sarvonian point of view (so it wouldn't be completely original ulvurian) and would follow the human and elven mythological timeframe, not the other way round.

Further checks & comments to come...


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/30/04 20:06
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« Reply #19 on: 01 July 2004, 12:14:00 »

Ok, let's continue...

Chapter III: Of Uhrum And The War Against The Chaos

They did not have to search long. (Hmmm... This short sentence with a reference to the last Chapter looks a bit out of place here, as a chapter usually stands on its own. Maybe add a sentence to make clear what is meant.)

In the darkest depths of the Ginnungarja, a great many-coloured spark had manifested into a great void; an abyss into the very chaos itself. This void had only grown and grown since the spark had touched the Nevermist, and it had outgrown Rimjora's world itself a thousandfold since long. This great chaos now seemed to surround the world and the trinity; constantly expanding. Uhrum the ulvur called it, and from this immense void dark spirits had emerged (no , here) and they had entered Rimjora's realm unseen and unsensed by all. Disguised as spirits of nature, they had fooled all the races, even the ulvur. Dark thoughts and feelings existed in the little darkness that was in every sentient creature, but the ulvur had always been able to hold these emotions at bay. It was a struggle each and everyone of them had to fight throughout their lives, but with peace in the world those struggles had always been almost completely non-existing. Until now. It was the dark spirits that had fed upon such emotions, and upon doing so even making them grow. But Rimjora had sensed them as they had poisoned the minds of her children. Only the ulvur were strong enough to resist, and yet there were some of them that could hardly even do that. Rimjora gave the most powerful of the ulvur druids visions of the great void and its dark spirits. She also showed them a great, dark dream, in which the world would at last be consumed by Uhrum, and the trinity would fall; all life would end, and chaos would be eternal. This was the prophecy of the great Orminvakar; the time when the ulvur truly must save the world from the chaos and restore its balance, both by their own hands, but also by uniting the other races once again. Only with the combined force of the spirits of all Rimjora's children could the chaos be driven back and banished to the eternity of Ginnungarja, but their spirits must have found their ways back to their All-Mother to be part of such a great force. Thus the ulvur began their quest to re-unite the races, and to vanquish any threat to Rimjora. It was at this time their All-Mother gave them the gifts of magic and rage. Connected to the lapse of the moon, the ulvur learned to change their shape to their old wolf-self and embrace the powers of Rimjora's spiritual essence, and to a strong, bestial form in which their ferocious rage would bring them strength beyond their wildest dreams.

But it was no easy task they sought to complete.  


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« Reply #20 on: 02 July 2004, 12:17:00 »

ok i've fixed it8o  

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« Reply #21 on: 02 July 2004, 12:37:00 »

Next one:

Chapter IV: Of The Demon Hunt

As the ulvur returned from their spiritual journey in their northern homelands to the elven, dwarven and human homesteads in the south, people would cry in fear upon their coming, as if they had forgotten their old guardians completely. Sadly, this was not far from the truth. The ulvur had lost track of the time they spent when they were spiritually communicating with Rimjora and learning their new abilities, and a much longer time had passed than they had expected. In the ulvur's absence, the dark spirits had spread (irregular verb! to spread - spread - spread) over the world in an otherwordly speed, and combined with the easily affected minds of the younger races had left trails of war and chaos behind them. Thus, the untold darkside of their new abilities now took its toll. The ulvur let their rage take them, and all save their instincts could tell who was friend and who was foe. They waged a bloody battle against the dark spirits of Uhrum, which now showed themselves in their true forms: the aggrar; twisted, monstrous and unnatural beasts, and they were not late to return the hostility of Rimjora's guardians. With the one goal in their minds - to rid the world from these demons -, the ulvur raged across the lands in a brutish crusade; hunting down, slaying and banishing not only the demons themselves, but also every single little creature that showed the faintest sign of being possessed by a dark spirit. This bloody crusade came later to be called Aggrarblot; the Demon Hunt. The other races could not tell aggrar from ulvur, ferocious as their former guardians were in their new-found battle forms. And so, even the oldest and wisest of the alver; still having vague memories of their friendship with the ulvur, deemed them to be as much demons from the void as the true, dark spirits. Their bond to nature became weak and their judgement clouded. The ulvur sensed this, and when they had driven back most of the aggrar if not to Uhrum, then at least to barren and remote places of the world, they desperately tried to remind the other races of their once so strong friendships. But none would listen. Some, mainly of the maner and the vicious, barbaric races of the tursar even responded to the ulvur's pleadings of forgiveness and rememberance with nothing but fire and steel. Others would just turn away without any words.

And so the ulvur, with their tails between their legs, returned to their home to once again watch over Rimjora's children from afar, as best as possible. And soon, they would pass out of all knowledge to the other races, and remained only in their history books as legends and myths. Sad as they were, the ulvur despaired over this, but they swore to still keep their oath to their All-Mother. But soon, the despair would fade because of another feeling, still new to the ulvur; seductive and easily triggered, yet not so easily controlled: rage. The alver and dvargar were deemed just lost, but when the maner and the tursar spread over the world; forgetting more and more of the lores of Rimjora and thus ruthlessly harvesting resources and hunting beasts in ridicolous amounts, the anger and eventually hate towards their new, heretic ways grew within the heart of every ulvur. They would never stoop so low that they would consciously hunt and slay maner or tursar, but if anyone dared to cross their borders, the ulvur would drive them out by any means necessary, and if the lost souls even tried to hunt or harvest wood or any other resource, the judgement of the ulvur would not be a kind one.

Some further comments will be coming before I move on to the next part.


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« Reply #22 on: 07 July 2004, 15:06:00 »

Ok, next part:

Interlude

Journal entry, Passing Clouds 24th, 1657


The winter has truly come to Cyhalloi. Never have I experienced such coldness, and this is only the beginning. I do not know how much longer into the winter months or farther north I can go, but I will surely not last over the whole winter. Before Frozen Rivers I must return or at least begin my journey back to the Library in any way, so my time grows short. However, I have made some most interesting discoveries.

A little more than two weeks ago we came across a pair of local hunters who were not late to warn us of the 'man-wolf beasts'. When I asked if they had actually seen one of these beasts in the flesh they hesitated for a moment, but then they both nodded, and their eyes sparkled with fear as if they recalled that very moment they had seen such a creature. They told me of how they had stridden home the week before at duskfall after a long, hard day of unsucessful hunting, when their two large hunting dogs suddenly had picked up a scent which had made them both excited and agitated. The dogs had wimpingly turned to the nearby woods and watched it as if they waited for something, but none of them had moved. One of the hunters, the larger of them, had cautiously walked closer to the dark wood, and when he had been four or five peds away, a dark shape had suddenly appeared among the firs. It had moved like a wolf, and yet it had had more the shape of a man. Swift like the wind it had been, but then it had just stood there; watching the hunter with the faintly glowing eyes of a wolf. The hunter had frozen in both awe and fear when he had noticed it, and had forced himself to pay no heed to the questing calls his fellow hunter had given him. The dogs had still done nothing but stand their ground; wimping, watching and smelling. It had not been until the other hunter finally had walked not so cautiously to where the first hunter had stood when the man-wolf had been gone, as sudden as it had appeared. (Well, maybe you should consider using direct speech at the above lines, 'cause I'm getting all dizzy with this many "hads" up there, and this part therefore doesn't read that well. If you put it into someone's mouth, you can simply write it in past tense;) ) "I didn't believe him when he told me about what he just had seen," said the other hunter, "but a short time after that, when the dogs had started acting normal again, a sudden howl could be heard from within the woods. It sounded very much like a wolf's howl, but I knew it wasn't. It had something of a bard's song. It had lyrics, actual lyrics I tell you! Of course they were of some language we don't know nothing about, but I swear it had rhyming words and a flowing melody and all that! Feffing scary, I tell you that! Still, there was something... nice about it, if anything ever can be nice about a howl. I know one thing for sure though, and that's that no human could ever sing a song like that!" He had been both a bit frightened, but still with a glimpse of fascination in his eyes when he told me about the strange howl-song, but the first hunter had just stared beyond us with pure fear ("fear alone" sounds a bit strange). I asked one final question; if this strange creature had anything to do with the rumours of the tundra beast, where upon he answered: "The tundra beast (good that your bring in some more references to existing stuff!) is a savage monster that attacks everything that moves. This, m'lord, looked at me as if it said 'this is my territory, little man, and you best be on your way out of here unless you want to become the hunted', just like a wild wolf, but even beyond that. There was almost something man-like in that look it gave me..." He fell silent after that and looked away as if he wanted to hide his face. Apart from that they obviously had hurried southward to their home as fast as possible, the two hunters had nothing more to tell.

We bought some supplies from them before parting ways, where upon we continued our cold trek.

We had been travelling far north on the east island for about a week since we met the hunters; seeing nothing but the snow-covered tundra; plains, mountains and woods buried under an ever white layer of frost. As we set up a camp to rest a bit and have some lunch, we noticed a trail of strange stones leading into the nearby woods. They were tall; both unnaturally placed and shaped, and as we got closer we saw carvings on them. These marks showed not only symbolic patterns, but also detailed pictures and portrayals of man-like creatures battling monsters and the like. There were also pictures of what looked like a big tree with swirling branches; perhaps an oak or an ash, and also what appeared to be a celestial shape on the sky like the sun, but it divided into halves of various sizes on each stone. The most apparent picture was however of a trinity symbol; a knot of some ancient design, and even more evident, on each stone, was the portrayal of various wolves or wolf-like creatures.
I have never before encountered runestones of that design. It did not remind me of anything human, elven, dwarven, orcish or anything else, and yet, it showed that whatever culture it seems to be part of is a sophisticated and proud one; clearly at a level of our own. Such beauty it must be in the art by which those runestones were crafted. (Uhmm... Not proper English...) They told not only a wonderous tale of ancient times, but also seemed to give warnings and information of the surrounding area. Could they indeed have been crafted by the ulvur themselves? In any way, such discoveries as those give me more warmth and strength than any fire or meal, and what a month ago seemed to be the mission of a madman now truly has the potential of a new, great journey of historical discovery.

----

Ok, a note at this point: Is it really necessary to combing the ulvur mytn with the story of the researcher? The two things don't seem to be directly related, and placing the diary notes in between the myth somehow distract from the myth. Both things are great narrations on their own, so why not just split ot up? We could put the ulvur myths into the Library, maybe stating in the introductory texts that this myth was found with our researcher, and we could make a seperate library addition containng the researcher's diary. At least so far I don't see the direct necessary relation between these two different storylines. - What do you think?


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« Reply #23 on: 08 July 2004, 03:34:00 »

Quote:
Well, maybe you should consider using direct speech at the above lines, 'cause I'm getting all dizzy with this many "hads" up there, and this part therefore doesn't read that well. If you put it into someone's mouth, you can simply write it in past tense


ok, now I'm confused. Drogo said before when commenting on the Ravenblade legend that I should always use the proper tense prepositions to avoid confusion... and now YOU'RE confused. I don't really know how to write anymore.:  

Quote:
fear alone" sounds a bit strange

why does it sound strange? it's a very common old term for 'only fear' or 'nothing but fear'. 'Pure fear' doesnt give that impression.

Quote:
Such beauty it must be in the art by which those runestones were crafted. (Uhmm... Not proper English...)

uhh.. ok... I thought so... but ok how about this: 'Such beautiful minds the craftsmen of those runestones must have.'

'
Quote:
Ok, a note at this point: Is it really necessary to combing the ulvur mytn with the story of the researcher? The two things don't seem to be directly related, and placing the diary notes in between the myth somehow distract from the myth. Both things are great narrations on their own, so why not just split ot up? We could put the ulvur myths into the Library, maybe stating in the introductory texts that this myth was found with our researcher, and we could make a seperate library addition containng the researcher's diary. At least so far I don't see the direct necessary relation between these two different storylines. - What do you think?

Well, the thing is, I don't think that the 'story' of the researcher can do on its own. I think that these interludes with his journal entries gives an interesting aspect to the chronicles; making it more of a narration than a history lesson, and still wiht a 'realistic' touch. In the litterature sense I love it as well. But then again, since the chronicles are to be intergrated as myth and history recordings, it can be a bit confusing to some people...
I'm sorry, but I can't write in any simplier way. I demand concentration and enthusiasm from my readers, just as I do from the ones who look at my visual art. I think that writing simple insults the complexity and philosophical value of any intruging fantasy world. Does a little a little touch of litterature really hurt that much? I also think it makes greatly in the Compendium. I think that separating them and even making an entire entry of his own of the researcher only confuse things. So I'm sorry, but I can't agree. I think it's perfect as it is.  

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« Reply #24 on: 08 July 2004, 07:58:00 »

I agree with Art, Isilhir, I think it would be better to make sepereate entries, or a persons entry with the diary part, a link to it from the myth. And as I mentioned above already, do more smaller parts, it is easier to read.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but I can't write in any simplier way. I demand concentration and enthusiasm from my readers, just as I do from the ones who look at my visual art. I think that writing simple insults the complexity and philosophical value of any intruging fantasy world. Does a little a little touch of litterature really hurt that much?


The problem is, are there readers at all from whom you can demand enthusiasm and enough concentration to read all this? If you want that your works are read, then you have to give your readers a hand and help them doing so.

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« Reply #25 on: 08 July 2004, 08:55:00 »

uhhhm well I think i give some fair 'helping hands'.... i don't want to write kids books or anything here, I'm trying to create a serious and thorough piece of mythos here. I still think the interludes fits perfectly into the recounting of the mythology/history. It keeps the reader intruiged and alert and most of all keep him/her wanting to read on. I take it the two of you don't like books with paralell stories? ;)

Of course the final call is yours, so do what you have to do. But I still disagree completely.  

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« Reply #26 on: 08 July 2004, 10:27:00 »

LOL, no, you are wrong, I do like books with parallel stories as long as they merge at a point or have something in common.

But I want, that somebody else reads your stuff as well, and you are far away from a children's book (do you have something against children's books? ;)  )

I think you are forgetting, that your are fully into this whole myth and story, that you are naturally interested - that is not necessarily the case with somebody who looks into it shortly.

I really think your choice is: Keep it as fantastic, demanding and sophisticated as it is - without anybody wanting to read it, maybe even driven away from the sheer length
or make it easier to read and find some admirers.

You are not yet a famous author , who doesn't have to care if people read his works, time will show though ;)

I know it is hard if others don't agree with you and there is critics and not all are able to see your works in the perfect light as you see them, and there is not only praise, but that is the prize you have to pay, if you want to be part of a joined endeavour and not a single fighter with an own homepage.

:hug   Isilhir

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« Reply #27 on: 08 July 2004, 14:26:00 »

Ok, concerning the tenses issues ("had"-problem): Well, I guess what Drogo meant is that you sometimes mixed up past tense and past perfect, and this could indeed lead to confusion. So you should always make sure to use the correct tense. If someone in the past refers to something that happened before you need to use past perfect, otherwise it gets confusing (with past tense used the reader might think it just happens while he's talking).

I mainly referred to the excessive use of past perfect. If you tell a whole story in past perfect you get a lot of repeats of "hads" and it gets very strenuous to read. Authors therefore use the trick to put things into direct speech to avoid telling a story completely in past perfect. So I thought it might be a good idea to try that;)  

"Fear alone": I'm as native English speaking as you are, Isilhir... :lol   So it didn't sound right here to me (guess "alone" is seldom used int such a context, "only fear" sounds better to me). But I cam be wrong of course;)   These are just suggestions, anyway! Judy is the English teacher here, and I nearly flunked back then in English... :lol  

"Beautiful Minds" sounds ok... Why am I reminded suddenly of Russel Crowe?

Concerning the myth/diary thing:

Well, see, if I read for example Dalá's letters of the Erpheronian Noblewoman I know what to expect - an entertaining read, fluently written. Diary notes are similar to this - they are easily consumeable from the reader's point of view and guarentee an easy read. - Now if I open the Silmarillion, I know there's much more to it, and I will need this concentration you speak of  to understand this much heavier mythical stuff.

Now you combine such 2 very different styles, but don't really connect them. If you'd write for example several diary notes, and then put in a piece of myth the writer found somewhere and quotes from there (or even comments), then this would fit into the writing flow. Currently you let them pretty much collide, without a transgression between the two things, so this is a bit difficult to swallow. - As I said, both parts alone have their qualities and are an interesting read, but you'd need to weave them together somehow if you'd like to make one story out of it. At least that's my impression, and as I see Talia also thinks along a similar line.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/7/04 22:27
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« Reply #28 on: 09 July 2004, 13:13:00 »

But therein lies the beauty, to combine two different styles, but I do think I connect them. I add some hints of the chapter to come and such, but in the end they're just interludes and are only supposed to give faint ideas of the subject matter. I don't think they clash, since the subject in both concerns the Ulvur, and naturally that the researcher was the one who wrote the original ulvur history in the first place. I try to give both his recounting of the old legends AND his own experiences; hence his personal journal entries. Again I refer to the fact that I want the readers to think and keep their minds concentrated. I'm sorry but I just can't see any problem.
Concerning the past tense and all that: I'm even more confused. The resaercher recounted what he had been told by the hunter, who of course had told his tale in past tense. So naturally the reasearcher had to write it as something that had happened.
With all the 'hads' I made it sure not to mix past tenses, just like Drogo said. I personally think it looks weird too, so I'm even more confused now.
uhhhh, of course authors put the SPEECH in present because the characters doesnt live in the past, they live in their own 'now'. But in this case, the researcher didnt SAY anything, he wrote it. AND, he wrote about htings that HAD happened. What the hunters HAD told him.
Oh and btw i've had highest grades in almost all my english courses;)    'fear alone' is as I said an old english term, but it's not just fear, it's other nouns and adjectives, e.g. 'Pay with money alone'.
A Beautiful Mind was a temporary downfall, but after Master and Commander I love that guy again:D    "For England, for home, and for the prize!"

I don't have anything 'against' children books, but I am not exactly planning to write one and being at the age of 20 I don't find much satisfaction reading them either. And I certainly don't think fantasy should be confused with litterature for youth just because children have better imagination. I don't think my way of writing is hard to understand. It's not exactly in Tolkien's league, and I understood at least most of LotR and the Silmarillion when I first read them(I was 14 then).
I knew of course that there would be certain ways information must be presented here, but I didn't think that every writer must change his/her ways of writing so radically in order to fit a certain style. If the mass understands the context, then I don't see the problem. Of course I can take critic, it's not at all about that. It's just that in your case the critic seems to be more about that you want epics texts such as these to be as simple as possible. And I just can't do that.
You can't please everyone of course, but I at least thought that this site was directed towards the vast majority of fantasy fans while still keeping a serious and mature atmosphere and not something in the ways of Harry Potter fansites. Correct me if I'm wrong;)  

Anyway, i completely understand that there must be some similarity between all entries here, but can't the stories be unique? it's just like with the visual artists' different styles. And I just thought that adding some form of documentary drama would keep every entry for the Compendium to get too boring..:lol  
   

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Edited by: Isilhir at: 7/8/04 21:20
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« Reply #29 on: 09 July 2004, 13:39:00 »

Hey, seems you lost your humour, Isilhir, for answering with a whole paragraph on my ;)  comment on childrens books.

And I think you still didn't get it right: My concern is, that nobody will read your fantastic stuff, because a reader has to be caught  first and dive into it to a certain degree.
What is better: To do some compromises and find readers or to drown unread in the  depth of the internet?

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