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Author Topic: Northern Sarvonia in progress  (Read 8791 times)
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #30 on: 24 November 2000, 15:57:00 »

Some additional notes:

I haven't really elaborated on the "ensalving" idea. This was just something which sprang in my mind as a first thought and I don't like it either.

However, I'm always thinking on something with as much mytholgical depth as possible, and this is why I wouldn't reduce it to the simple fact that "Coór initiates the whole thing" (as a concrete fact). Coór at first isn't material, there's no evil person. Everything is bliss. Just think mythological: There is nothing that needs to be initiated. The Dream began. And in the Dream its destruction was contained. It all happened because of the Dream itself. It's unpersonal. But it finally directs itself against the Gods. The rest can be the way you explained it, Koldar. And like you said, Curgan. The idea of beauty is turned. The Dream finally results in material destruction, I'd say. But of course everything is has its source in the Shadow Himself.

BTW: The thing with the flooding was used in order to explain the big amount of swamps in this region. But I guess the dam idea sounds great. This could be an example of the fight of the races versus the powers of the Gods, reflected in the tidings of the sea (we could even deduce the cosmological origin of the tidings from this fight eventually). The swamps should remain a very dark place, even milleniums after these happenings, and it is reported that many travellers found their deaths there.

But I have another improvemnent to the concept ready:

I can even picture an elf standing in the ruins and finally comprehending that the elves' will to perfection and love to Avá must result in its contrary. Yes, I guess it is not even necessary that the elves turned to Coór before the destruction. They just realize that the beauty of the realm was corrupt in its core. THEN many turn to Coór and become dark elves (and chaos begins). Maybe they tried to build something so beautiful that it would be more beautiful than the Gods themselves... Like the colossos of Rhodes or something similar... Yeah, and the elf standing in the midst of the ruins looks into the sky and asks to no-one in particular: "If our longing for the uttermost beauty is the destruction of [Eden] - will the beauty of the world then also destroy the world and thus beauty itself?" Speaks, and dies.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #31 on: 01 December 2000, 13:11:00 »

Continueing the discussion, we had on ICQ (Art doesn't want his elven babies being "bad", imperfect guys! ;)  )

Most of my ideas, basing on a conflict, where the elves try to involve Coór into Avá's Dream, were crushed by Art's opinion that elves are recognizing the presence of Coór in/as the world and would fall apart from Avá.

My new idea is: Elves are "good" guys, but they are also very arrogant and self-confident about other people. They might have challenged the gods, thinking they are not following the right track and that only the elven way is right. Perhaps they would then try to enact a new religion around some kind of philosophy with new gods (or _one_ new God), which would then enrage and frighten the gods.

=> CLASH! (as thought out above)

What do you think, or is this still to simple? ;)

Bye, Koldar Mondrakken

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Curgan2
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« Reply #32 on: 04 December 2000, 13:13:00 »

I think the elves were corrupted of the supreme beauty and decided to play God and create a new race. Their experiment-pets were the other races.
This outraged the Gods, who didn't like the elves, and they -incited from their inherent jealousy- supported the mortal races, because they worshiped them insecure as they were in the face of death. So the war begun.

And in connection with the Helcrani:
A part of those elves who were saved formed a cult. They believed that ava was good but her dream as her reflection was bad. So they had to reflect the dream in the blade of the sword in order to purify it again.
That's why they came to an idea. If the worst tribe in Sarvonia was to do some good then there were hopes for it. Then they were impressed because the Helcrani became warriors out of farmers and focused on them. Their many faults proved that they were ideal for the test. And so the story begins... they spread the plague and lead the Helcrani to the Efirhal, where they had just planted the Artapherana as a sign.
Later on the story evolves, but for know I 'd like to hear opinions about the initial idea.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #33 on: 06 December 2000, 08:12:00 »

Is this not a little blood-thirsty for elves?

Bye, Koldar

PS:
Banners are complete, but don't know when to post them.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #34 on: 06 December 2000, 11:35:00 »

Hmmm... How would that "creating a new race" look like, Curgan? Magical cloning?

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Curgan
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« Reply #35 on: 07 December 2000, 11:48:00 »

Not blood thirsty, just philosophical ones (even with a mistaken philosophy).
As for the creation of a new race... well I 'd prefer them using the same method Morgoth used in the Silmarilion to create orcs (don't wanna mention Aule and the dwarves, because Aule was a *gog* while morgoth wasn't after his fall)

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #36 on: 08 December 2000, 06:48:00 »

I don't know if it would be very elvish to create a new race because this would certainly act against the 'Dream', I think. But perhaps there's another way to it.
("Of, course brilliant as all of my ideas are!!!" ;)  ) *hehe*

Why not let the elves themselves try to transform into some kind of new existence? They might think the reason Avá's dream is not fullified and their 'perfect' kingdom doesn't work properly might be because they themselves are not perfect. So they think, they have to change themselves to be Avá's perfect creatures.
Something like that...
The Gods would be then the ones angried about the elves because they're not willing to accept their fate and fear that they don't control this 'new' elven race any more.

Koldar Mondrakken

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #37 on: 08 December 2000, 11:32:00 »

Yup. Like the idea of Koldar. Problem is: How will/should this "new kind of elven existence" then look like?

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Curgan
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« Reply #38 on: 09 December 2000, 10:52:00 »

Externally, they probably must look the same (as elves are already beautiful), taller and stronger though. But they would have immortality and advanced mind powers.
But why does it seem a "humanizing" of elves (fond of gold, buildings, power and conquest) seems to me like a better reason for their destruction?

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« Reply #39 on: 09 December 2000, 13:25:00 »

With "How will/should this 'new kind of elven existence' then look like" I also meant how exactly would they try to become like gods? How will they turn to this new elven version?

And concerning the "humanizing": This is a philosophical matter. There are two ways for bad development of elves:
1.) ...to become more elven, demi-gods
2.) ...to become more like humans

The first idea is mythological. The second would be just a historical fact and wouldn't fit very well in the "Mčne'téka", the Book of Myths. Fondness of gold, buildings, power and conquest is typical human and this will happen in Santharian history more than once. But elves becoming demi-gods and being wiped out BECAUSE they are too perfect elves I guess is a unique concept. And I wouldn't like to substitute such a myth with just another "gain more power"-story.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #40 on: 09 December 2000, 22:27:00 »

Howtreat elves gods? The light elves of Thaelon would propably look for natural places to pray to them. Would others build enormous temples to pray to them?

To their affection to gold and wealth I would think elves are not dwarfs but they like perfection, so they can be affected by gold and emeralds the same way dwarfs and humans are affected. Wood elves would probably be more neutral to such things but an elven tribe building cities and creating an "empire" would be more likely love beautiful things and build great monuments, I think.

Bye, Koldar

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Curgan
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« Reply #41 on: 10 December 2000, 04:11:00 »

The elved don't believe in Gods, just Ava. Maybe that's why Gods destroyed. They were afraid of a new god-like race. And they were jealous of them.
Perhaps the elves of the north developed too much of themselves, maybe they managed to become immortal (as elves at Tolkien are). Then they became arrogant and started to "play" and experiment with other races.
How does it seem?

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« Reply #42 on: 10 December 2000, 07:39:00 »

Don't believe in the gods, although gods are a matter of fact? OK, they don't need the same gods as humans have, but it sounds somewhat disturbing that they don't believe in any god except Avá(which is not really a goddness but even more powerful/bigger).

What's is the attitude of the gods to the elves then when they don't believe in them?

The process you described should've lasted several centuries with a last "sin" which makes the gods intervene into mortal matters. As they grow more and more powerful and less and less "elvish"
they might've subdued the other races and later even enslaved. The other races turn from high respect for the power of the "Firstborn" to fear and then even to open aggression. I don't like these experiments with the other races being a central part of this aggression but one facet. They might have taken place, but aren't vital as the elves have done more cruel things.

Well, perhaps I still see such experiments being part of it. What when the elves tried to annect the other races strengthes to gain more power and create magically supported "cross-over relations"?
The first Halfelves might have appeared in this time. Elves adopted the warrior skills of the Orcs (perhaps they were more civilized in former times?) to make their soldiers stronger, the human creativeness to create even more powerful mages and the craftsmanship of dwarves to get smithes that combine the effectiveness of dwarfes with the perfectionism of elves (That are all stereotypes, but I like the Orc/Elf cross-over for more powerful soldiers as this shows how far the elves were goingm, esspecially seen from the view of an "modern" Elf in Santharian measures.)
At first these things were not neccessarily bad things but they proved to be totally against what the gods (and perhaps Avá?) had in mind.

Sounds that like a good combination?

Bye, Koldar

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Curgan
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« Reply #43 on: 12 December 2000, 00:40:00 »

I wholeheartedly agree with your story. It seems very natural to me. My only addition would be that elven sins could be codified in :o ppression, mixes between the races, humiliating/enslaving/torturing other races and using them in their experiments and as expendable resources. The last sin that caused the divine intervention could be a genocide project of other races in order that the elves would take the "life-force" of the diseased and gain immortality.

PS Please excuse the typo's in the first sentence of my previous message. I presume that I can read and write english better than a caveman...
URGH!!!!
;-)  

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #44 on: 12 December 2000, 14:39:00 »

To clarify something: Elves don't believe in Avá only. They know all the other gods as well of course and they are the same as the human ones. Only difference is: They know about Avá too and that she predominates over the other gods, and they get to know that Coór is Avá's biggest enemy.

And once again: I personally (*fending off hundreds of thrown eggs and tomatoes*) don't like the idea at all that elves are reduced to a race among others and even lose their identity in things of the flesh(!). This is contradictory to the elven nature which consists of PURE SPIRIT - especially at the beginning of time where they still aren't influenced by evil in general, and heed the "wind" in them. Elves mingling with orcs? With dwarves? Impossible in my point of view for a myth of the First Age! Later on in history, yes, when differences between the races have decreased and elves are more closer to humans and their faults etc. There will happen many strange things, and nothing should be taken for granted.

I still stick to the idea that at the beginning of time elves as beings of wind and spirit should more try to leave reality than to subdue it in the one way or the other. Perfection indeed is a loss of reality. I think more on something where they would get completely lost from reality, where they try to get demi-gods, pure spirits. They try themselves in their own ascension, in the return to the Mother of All, to the source of the dream. Maybe THAT'S why they are neglecting their duties as guides of the other races cause they only think about themselves (although they try to return to the true essence of the dream in fact). This enrages the gods cause the elves were meant to watch over the other Children. AFTER the gods had shown their rage, destroying their temples etc. and the trust of the elves in these guiding spirits is shattered the remaining elves continue to execute the reality of the Dream in two different ways: the way of light and the way of darkness.

(Hey, maybe you should just throw me somehwere in a dungeon and lock it.)

Yours Artimidor, collecting tomatoes, but still holding the elven banner high!!

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