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Author Topic: The Grand Empire of Krath (Edit done; please comment!)  (Read 14354 times)
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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #30 on: 23 February 2006, 16:32:00 »

It's a jungle actually. That's why I was thinking about stones... But I kinda like the idea of precious/semi-precious stones used to "store" words of wisdom - especially when it comes to Coren's sophisticated ancient folks.

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« Reply #31 on: 23 February 2006, 16:36:00 »

Coren, I set the link here for your new map, then you can put it where ever you want it:

Ambassador_distances.jpg

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« Reply #32 on: 23 February 2006, 16:37:00 »

And here is the URL :

http://www.stuff.santharia.com/coren/Ambassador_distances.jpg

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #33 on: 23 February 2006, 15:49:00 »

Ambassadors

Quote:
[Nope, sorry. No etiquette and ambassadors. Think of the fact that in between Krath and the east we have a bunch of barbarians, a stack of Chyrakisth and an impossible sea - that is the very reason for Tyr Faerath's existence. Let's keep these contacts to a minimum]


I really don’t think Krath’s having envoys in the eastern countries is that unfeasible, Smith. Here are my reasons:


(click image to enlarge)



1) Rome had occasional envoys from even the far-flung Chinese Empire and historians today say there was quite satisfying evidence of trade between the two nations. Now: a) Rome and China were a lot farther apart than Krath and any of the eastern nations; b) Krath’s level of advancement (both in “magic” and modes of travel) outshone Rome; c) Krath would want to keep an eye on its imminent neighbours – which also happen to be two of the strongest nations of the east (Korweyn and Anpagan). Krath would not miss the opportunity to engage in trade with the Korweynite Empire which is practically at its doorstep. Not only that, I guess the Earth Empire would want to have a few influential representatives to occasionally ‘mesh’ them against each other and add to the confusion.

2) Look at the blue lines; Korweyn (or was some of that territory already Anpagan?) was practically just around the corner! Now are you saying that ships from Anpagan harbours could make that terribly dangerous and lengthy journey (the red route), but Krath vessels could not manage to cross a washbasin of water (diagonal blue line, second from the north) which is about a third of the distance between Ontwana-Lydon Medion? I’m sorry but that just doesn’t make sense…

Now you’re going to point out that there the nomads of Benderreth occupied the light green area. That’s why I wanted at least a few Krath cities there, because:

a. Krath would not waste an area of such geopolitical importance. i- It would keep a strong garrison there to protect the eastern border against Korweyn; ii – Why sell to the Anpagans so they can sell it back to Korweyn and pay all the travel expenses when you can barter directly with the Korweynite so close to home? I do not think either of the empires would neglect the golden prospect. At any rate the last thing Korweyn would want is having to send soldiers to rescue its western territory from such a great power when it is already knee-deep in trouble with Ehebion. So… it pays to keep Krath content.

Now this whole concept seems to ruin all of our initially plans I know, but I’ve given it some thought and it actually turned out that the new scheme only supports the early theories: We are talking of pre-YoD area, right? That means no Anpagan Republic, no Armand, no Pacifiers etc. So the journey is still very perilous with the seawyrms untamed and no gargantuan ships to carry the cargo. Therefore Anpagan did not have as much trade potential back as it does today (or even the very last years of Krath). BUT: This does not reduce Anpagan to virtually insignificance. Korweyn might be close but Krath still needs ships (and thus a sea-trade partner) to transport all those products into other eastern nations and put them on the market there. So Anpagan would act sort of an “agent” of the Great Krath Empire – at least for then. Actually Anpagan NOT Korweyn is the ideal choice for Krath because it was not so well established back then. Easier to manipulate and could always be used as a power-lever against Korweyn.

b. If Krath truly set it in his mind to establish in the flatland there I don’t think a handful of primitive nomads could stop the progress of such a great empire.

c. Not to contradict our previous plans (the nomads have nothing of value for Krath so why bother + east/west separation), this is how I would predict what happened back then: Krath really did not have much interest in pouring over a lot of resources battling such stubborn and ardent warriors (especially since they had little to gain from that- the colourful ‘jugs-of-spit taxation’ example). But it did need a) a few strong outposts to secure its border b) to control the vital trade-route. So my guess would be it only built a handful of cities and fortifications in strategic locations and let the nomads wander around in the remaining territory.


3) Venlaken was not inhibited by all sorts of abominations and horrible apparitions back then. Perhaps it was in this pre-Darkness era (more around 2000-1800 bS I guess) the civilisation behind those mysterious “ruins” existed. Kind of makes sense: Krath is living through a golden age and it is only natural that some of the neighbouring places not currently involved in war would want to imitate. I’m thinking of the cross-interaction in the Terran Renaissance Era which roused competition and thus speed developments on all sides.

That makes the lower two blue-routes viable?

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 2/23/06 9:14
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« Reply #34 on: 23 February 2006, 16:59:00 »

:crazy  Now why is the map displayed in giant version, hmm... How do I fix this?

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« Reply #35 on: 23 February 2006, 17:56:00 »

In a small version you can't read anything, so I uplpaded only the big one, thought you would set only a link, but I do a smaller one as well.

Now inset this one instead of the normal URL:


[link=stuff.santharia.com//coren/Ambassador_distances.jpg newwindow][image noborder]http://stuff.santharia.com//coren/Ambassador_distances_small.jpg[/image][/link]
(click image to enlarge)

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Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 2/23/06 10:09
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« Reply #36 on: 23 February 2006, 19:16:00 »


(click image to enlarge)

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« Reply #37 on: 23 February 2006, 19:19:00 »

Ok, you have to look at the big picture though. So let me summarize:

1. There is no more Korweyn after 3200 bS. The battle on the Fields of Tears (see entry in History) ended their first reign completely. The remaining Ehebion (second Shadow Realm) and the Anpagan Kingdom (formed during the last Korweyn Emperor's short reign) split the Korweynite lands (i.e. all their known world) in two sides: east - Ehebion, west - Anpagan. The dividing line runs along the Raneshar river.

The next Korweyn rises after the YoD.

2. When the first wave of nomads settle on the Anpagan peninsula (and were called Pagans by the Korweynites) they already saw those ruins. My idea about them is that they are actually predating Menemronn => and all the knowledge about them is lost, they will be a perpetual mystery.

3. The lenghty route towards Zhun actually runs all along the shore (including that inland "sea" where you have drawn the dark blue routes). The reason for that is the presence of those aggressive Sea Wyrms. Lenghty and perilous, because not even by sailing along the shores would guarantee the safety of passage.
On land, we have the "Bucket", that tricky desert which is a mystery for Daedhirians themselves (meaning that it's not their doing there). This Bucket runs west of Moredein Tyrath, north of Bothon Dolion and south of the Benderran mountains. (btw, I did made those river to be temporary ones - depending on how much it rains in the mountains - when I wrote the Venlaken entry). This doesn't mean that the trip is impossible but, it means that it is quite hard to accomplish. => that's why we have the dwarves of Tyr Faerath - it is the only reason for their existence, actually.
The barbarians would live in the mountains and steppes north of those mountains. West of those mountains we have the Zhunith desert now - which was not a desert in Krath's times. I was thinking that it was there that they built those forts to defend their border settlements against the nomads and the Chyrakisth.

4. The Anpagans are mainly settled on the eastern peninsula in Krath's times. Venlaken is pretty much their northernmost fortress on the western side - serving only as a last stop towards Zhun. North of Venlaken, just some scattered farmlands.

5. Yes there is that light blue land route, yet the idea was that Tyr Faerath should be actually its end point. The dwarves take it from there.

_____

I know you would like to have such contacts, but then you shouldn't have set those guys so far behind. Also, that's why the Anpagan landing on the Zhunite shores was so important: the Nybelmarians finally realized that their world is bigger than they thought (which they will realize again, when the Sarvonians land on the Crimson Islands). Yes they did know something about a possible nation living in the east/west, yet that was more of a mythical/legendary tale. Besides, sometimes I get the feeling that you're thinking too "modern" for such a setting (we are also talking about Caelerethian prehistory here anyway), especially regarding the expansions. Think about Zhun: they are supposed to be city states, the fact that that particular area is colored in a certain way signifying that Zhunites are there, doesn't mean that every inch of land was populated by Zhunites. Space and time really have a different meaning in such a setting. Not every single piece of land has to be settled - that's what happens in our modern times [hmmm... example, let me see, maybe not the best, but anyway: remember Morrowind? Or any other fantasy game that aims to present a whole world (Gothic2 is a nice one also)? Remember the huge parts of "wilderness"?]

So let's keep'em separated, shall we? :)   At least as we talk of times before the YoD. After the YoD, that's a different story.

Edited by: Smith in Exile at: 2/23/06 2:28
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #38 on: 24 February 2006, 11:10:00 »

1. Right, orange represents Anpagan NOT Korweyn. I thought the exact opposite (Anpagan having a more ‘blue’ colour in my mind) with Korweyn being the “Empire of the Sun”.

That means Krath never actually came in contact with the Korweynites. Before 3200bS their territory barely extended to Zhun and when they actually expanded their border Korweyn had already disappeared centuries ago.


2. Ruins predate Menemronn. Nothing to do with Krath. Just another mystery for everyone. Ok.

3. So what prevents Krath from establishing more contacts with Anpagan, and the two kingdoms from getting onto each other’s throats is not a fortified border but rather a hot, barren desert. Makes sense; noone in his right mind would want to cross a desert that big with a colossal army on foot.

But to avoid further confusion perhaps we should colour that “Bucket” in a neutral colour since neither kingdom actually has much control over it (despite what they might think). That way we also prevent developers from assuming possible across-the-border trade/contact. What do you say?


Yes, Krath does have fortifications just where you said. But when I thought it also had an open border to Korweyn I wanted to put a few there.



Quote:
Think about Zhun: they are supposed to be city states, the fact that that particular area is colored in a certain way signifying that Zhunites are there, doesn't mean that every inch of land was populated by Zhunites. Space and time really have a different meaning in such a setting. Not every single piece of land has to be settled


4. The Krath (“Earth”) Peninsula is very densely populated. >>> They need a lot of food to sustain the population. I don’t think anyone, no matter how advanced their magic or technology is, can clear all those rainforests. It would only be logical for Krath to use whatever little available land (either naturally or ‘cleared’ forest ground) for housing and its cities if they could ‘transfer’ the food production elsewhere. So the Zhunite plains would be ploughed to their maximum.

Of course not every piece of land was occupied by ‘city’zens. This is the picture I have for Zhun:

A number of “cities” spread across the plains, each having smaller ‘satellite’ settlements around itself – similar to the Ionian civilization in the Aegean. But these were not autonomous “city-states” back then. They were just regular towns, centres of trade etc under the Empire. And in between these “clusters” (each cluster being a small region consisting of the ‘parent city’ and the supporting settlements) stretch field after farmed field wherever the soil is suitable.

So yes: No “settlements” on every plot of land but not as much unattended ‘wilderness’ as in Morrowind. Summing up: You have your towns + the satellite settlements + the villages lined between the major towns + and after that fields stretching on towards the horizon. The people looking after those fields do not necessarily have to live ‘on’ them. Those farmers live in the outer villages and travel to the fields to plant everyday.

Remember: arable fields belong to the state; they are only ‘leased’ to the farmers. If you allow everyone to build their own large farmhouse right on their fields that would be a great waste of arable land. You utilize every plot of suitable land for food production and build the villages for the farmers who work those fields on less fertile ground in between.

Other than all those fields of course you have a rather vast “wilderness” (hills, ravines, ponds etc) untouched by ‘civilization’.  

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« Reply #39 on: 24 February 2006, 11:48:00 »

Ok. My point there was that we shouldn't think of those colored areas as solid "blocks" with borders drawn with wired lines. The certain geographies of certain terrains have always been the major factor that influenced the patterns of human movement. A mountain, sometimes even a great river, may have been an impassable barrier. Also people were not living as they do today - a trip through the countryside would not reveal farmland near farmland all across the country, but only in certain areas. Europe for instance, throughout the Middle Ages was covered by rather large and dark forests - with all the consequences of that fact.

Anyway, maybe that was one of the reasons for Krath's downfall, the fact that they reached their "population limit", and/or overused the land?

About the Bucket: lol, well, you know how it is in such times... "me the great king X, ruling over everything I can see from east to west and north to south..." So maybe even the Krathians claim that the desert is theirs. The problem with these colored maps is that they are not really done well - they were never intended to, I guess. So they are more like rough guidelines. Personally I use the original maps (the enlarged versions) when I need to refer to something.

But that's why I keep bugging you with the timeline, we need to do that - at least get aS, we are too far behind imo. I want to write the Kalemans for instance, but I cannot because I have no idea what happens to them after the YoD. Also we need to set up the Crimson Islands - which will be the ground for the encounters with Sarvonia. Loreney needs to be redone (not possible but only after YoD)............... [gee lol, I should stop the list here, otherwise I might discourage myself] I also have a big question: what happens in the west after the Krath is done (after YoD)?

PS: btw, Daedhirians appear before the YoD. The Venlaken Enclave as a "political" structure forms after the YoD. The Daedhirian mages themselves were there before that - taking part in the Anpagan Republican Wars actually. Check the Armand DaRan entry for the exact date (meaning when he died) - but I think I left them about 50 years before the YoD to do enough mischief :)  

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« Reply #40 on: 24 February 2006, 12:11:00 »

Yes, Coren - I'm still confused, your Krean Men - did they vanish with the Krath empire, differently asked, are they still there after the YoD, or are they still existent now and how is their contact to Sarvonia? You did a char for the CD-board, but is he from the past? Are the Kreans today as they are back then ? Your tribe as you described it is the one from the dates of the introduction, right? Not the one of today?

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #41 on: 24 February 2006, 13:34:00 »

Long story short, following the 30-year Orcal War the Empire collapsed. Zhun gained a very Anpagan-tinted 'independence' and the Earth Peninsula was "lost" to the other civilizations of Nybelmar.

Generalizing this is what happened to the Earth Peninsula and why no one can contact any of those tribes (and thus all those tribes are believed to be extinct): When the Cyratisth threw their support to Orcal and began in an utter massacre of innocent Krath citizens the Temple of Ankriss was maddened beyond belief. The High Priestess (the almost demi-god one embedded in what the Krean call "the Tree of Ages") tapped into the powers of every priestess of Ankriss to weave the most complex spell in the history of Nybelmar (perhaps excluding Menemronn of the Chosen). She wanted to wipe out the entire Orcisth army with a single blow - but she lost control. I guess the armies of Orcal were annihilated (though as a 'side-effect') but the blast also smited some of the greatest Krathrian cities.

The High Priestess utterly lost control of the force then. So you have this major magical cataclysm striking randomly around Krath.

But that did not stop the Cyratisth - quite the opposite they doubled their evil efforts and the slaughter was greater than before the HP intervened. The HP got crazy from trying to handle/restrain all that gathered energy. Her grief and guilt only fueled her rage. She was beyond all moral and rational limits. To destroy the Cyratisth lurking in the Earth Peninsula she even used the "forbidden arts". Besides all the atrocities she even summoned armies of the dead and all sorts of vile creatures - which of course got out of control. With the intervention of the Orihirim, the peninsula was sealed off from the rest of the land to prevent further disasters. The remaining priestesses (those who did not go mad or die) managed to pin the HP down with the help of the Orihirim. But it took all their power to maintain the trap so they had to withdraw entirely into the High Temple (marked on the map). Possibly even today each generation of priestesses devotes their entire life to imprisoning the HP. No help from the priestesses the people of the peninsula could not defeat the unearthly hordes. So after the Year of Darkness the Earth Peninsula looks much like the “real world” in Matrix: The tribes segregated from each other; each existing in a state of fear, inhabiting the ruins of their former cities, escaping the creatures haunting their woods…





Santharia has never encountered an ethnically "pure" Krean before. Today the only Kreans (the only ones the world knows about) are the Asaen lineage. They had immigrated to an island off the coast of Anis-Anpagan before the fall of Grand Krath. In time their blood got a little mixed as they had to marry Anpagans for survival - but they always held on to their 'Krean heritage'. So: all Asaen children are raised as how they believe the Krean were raised back then.

As for how Santharia knows anything about the Krean see my "Santharian knowledge about Krath" post above.




The tribe entry reflects not how the real Krean (the 'tribe') live s today but how they used to when the Empire still existed. Or to put it simply: the Krean entries reflect what the Compendium and the Asaen believe about the Krean.

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« Reply #42 on: 24 February 2006, 14:37:00 »

Right, this makes perfect sense. Including the Chyrakisth presence there - The YoD also means that the Chyrakisth finally begin to think that they should be the ones to build the Shadow Realm (see entry on Chyrakisth and their obsidian king or something - we need to add more details into that once we figure out the timeline), quite the seeds for that third Shadow war, as until then they pretty much credited their old "friends" Murmillions with that task. There was a thread with a dicussion between Koldar and me on this issue, but I presume that it's lost now, because of that crash. An intense Chyrakisth activity in the west could be the explanation of their seemingly lack of presence in the east during the Dark Age of Nybelmar (3200 bS - YoD).

But, Coren, are you sure that you want to "wipe" your folks out completely for the rest of the timeline? Or you will focus more on the Zhunites? Or do you have some other human tribe in mind? Another reason for keeping east and west separated now is that there will be more extended contacts/conflicts between east and west especially a.S. => to give some consistency to the timeline (by moving on gradually from separated histories, to locally interweaved ones, to a general interweaved one - we did a pretty good job at that until now, I think).

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« Reply #43 on: 24 February 2006, 14:19:00 »

I never wipe my creations out entirely...

Alright, alright! I never intended to reveal this so soon but

8o  

::whispers::

I intend to return to Nybelmar in a few years and claim the glory of resurrecting the Krean...

But until I figure out the timeline and the possibilities (which kingdoms would be available to support that 'quest') I really want to keep Krath low-profile. The rebirth of the Krean itself should give us several tomes for history and quite a few stories/quests...

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 2/23/06 21:21
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« Reply #44 on: 24 February 2006, 15:27:00 »

Well, then, Coren, your char is from an non-existing tribe and not playable :(
I keep quiet , promise ;)  

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14 September 2017, 09:40:04
Hello all! It's been a minute since I poked my nose in here. Can't remember if I ever did anything useful.
09 May 2017, 14:17:18
Ah, too bad that internet is so restricted in China, Ferra. Can't be much fun surfing the web that way if Big Brother's watching you... Hope you enjoy your stay nevertheless!
03 May 2017, 17:41:19
Hi, dear Arti and other developers!

This year I am in China and cannot use any Google services including YouTube. For this reason I stopped uploading new Nepris videos. I can also not read any comments there.

It just crossed my mind that this information might be useful to you.

Cheers

F
26 March 2017, 12:48:56
Hello to anyone that might read this. :)
22 December 2016, 02:38:16
Merry Christmas everyone!
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