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Author Topic: A most painful proposal...  (Read 6306 times)
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Ruil Mallister
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« on: 22 January 2006, 18:27:00 »

Alright, I've noticed a few things that seemed a bit off when it comes to fantasy.  And, since I'm trying my hardest to give Santh a realistic feel to its fantasy, I believe that Santh deserves to have a bit of a revamping.  While they directly challenge many paradigms we may have, I believe this will give Santharia a wonderful new taste.

Enough of the procrastinating.  I’ll give my ideas after I state a few facts of the development of weapons:  Weapons are developed out of need and from the tools at hand.  Most weapons of war were adapted from farm tools into implements of death and destruction.  Others were made from hunting tools.

That being said, some of the traditional weapon preferences for various races are, well, unrealistic and something I’d like to address.  While I love Gimli from LotR, I do not believe that dwarves would almost exclusively wield axes into combat.  In fact, due to the elves’ habitat, I believe that THEY are the race more likely to most commonly use axes.

So, I would like to state my intentions now:
- The elves will prefer axes.
- The dwarves will prefer pickaxes, maces, and other blunt weapons.
- The humans will probably prefer the polearm and sword.
- All races would most likely develop different versions of bows and spears, as those were common hunting weapons.

Now, for my reasonings.
- The elves live almost exclusively in forests.  Even elves need shelter, and stone is probably not a very commonly-found resource in the woods.  Therefore, out of sheer need, the elves would most likely clear the trees they absolutely had to in order to make their cities.  The most common way to cut down a tree was with an axe.  Because the elves are surrounded by trees, I’m certain most elves would carry an axe on them.  Thus, when an elf is ambushed by enemies, (s)he’d use the tools at hand.  The most efficient one on them, most likely, would be the axe.
- The dwarves, I’ve noticed, seem to live solely in the mountains or underground.  They are also a very blacksmithing race, a people who enjoy working with stone and steel.  In order to smith the metals, they’d have to mine it.  The dwarves would, therefore, use pick-axes to mine it, and then hammers to pound the metal into their tools and weapons.  For the same reason the elves would begin to use axes as weapons instead of tools, the dwarves would modify their tools for war.  I believe that the dwarves would then initially wield pick-hammers, war hammers, mauls, and possibly maces.
- And the humans seem to be located in a lot of fields and low hills.  With a lot of open space, farming would be encouraged and horse riding would be a common practice.  Because farmers use such a plethora of different tools, various weapons of war would develop from there.  I.e. the scythe, trident and sai.  Also, because the humans seem to have a lot of open fields, the use of polearms would also most likely arise, as the large, open spaces would allow for the use of nine foot weapons, which a dense forest would not.

These are not definitive.  I’m not saying elves would never use a sword or a warhammer, and that a dwarf would never use an axe.  I’m just saying that the most commonly-used melee weapons by these races would be as I described that.  I will be happy to explain further and answer questions if you have any, but right now I have to go.  Dinner awaits.

I hope you all like my ideas, as I have put a lot of work into them.




"And so the journey begins, filled with the passion of life, the burden of love and heartache,
and the perseverence of duty and vigilance... I live."

Edited by: Ruil Mallister at: 1/22/06 1:28
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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #1 on: 22 January 2006, 22:28:00 »

Quote:
- The elves will prefer axes.

Hmm... Since they are pretty much the weakest race of the main races (in terms of brute power) and more nimble and quickfooted instead, I would say elves prefer light and fast weaponry (as it would fit their build better). Thin, curved swords seem to fit them better in my oppinion. Also, in pretty much every fantasy setting elves are traditionally archers, so maybe they have the best developed bows (technically)?
Quote:
Thus, when an elf is ambushed by enemies, (s)he’d use the tools at hand. The most efficient one on them, most likely, would be the axe.

These are peaceful times. Not much chance on an ambush really.

And speaking of the main races: you missed one. My view on orcs & there weapons in short:
Axes, hammers, large swords and other more heavy weapons I would classify as orcish. Orcs are strong, they are born hunters and they've been bashing skulls since they came into existance. They are brute, but very efficient when it comes to killing and using their weapons (so they won't just swing around whatever heavy thing they can find if they can help it). Also, goblins can create weaponry with equal skill as dwarves, but they are much more battle orientated.

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Ruil Mallister
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« Reply #2 on: 23 January 2006, 17:10:00 »

A sword may be more balanced than an axe, but a sword is not necessarily lighter or more easily wielded than an axe.  In my opinion, an axe could very easily be a rather graceful weapon.  Afterall, an elf could very simply dart in and under an attack, spin the axe and drive it straight up into his/her enemy's ribs.  Axe head cleaves through any and all armor, and his/her opponent dies.

And bows would have rather limited use in dense woods.  While the elves would undoubtedly hunt game, and the two most common hunting equipments were the bow and the spear, the elves would most likely restrict the size of their bows to small recurve bows.  But as I said, spears and bows, due to being tools of the hunt, would be used by almost all tribes of all races.

And as for orcs and goblins, I never really had much of a problem about them.  They're strong and usually pretty fast.  And with the top-heaviness most axes and maces have, they can really capitalize on their strebth to do some serious damage.  Maybe I'll have them really enjoy their flails.  Flails swung fast and hit hard, and they could go over and neutralize shields, which would make them a great annoyance to tribes who loved to use shields.




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Pikel
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« Reply #3 on: 23 January 2006, 19:47:00 »

For the Axe - Sword issue concerning the Elves: You say that the Axe can be an elegant weapon, but in the very same post you call an axe top heavy. I am assuming you have used an axe at the very least to chop wood. If you have, then you know that Axe's are extremely unwieldy, and thus, not elegant at all. Sure you can do pretty dance moves while swinging an axe, but they are still far from balanced, and not really elegant at all.

For the Proposal in general: it seems as if your simple categorization is going to the point of needing to change parts of nearly ever race and tribe entry on the site, and that would require a vast amount of work. I just don't see the idea working, had you done this much much earlier, then yes, it would work, but as of now, with the large amount of tribes and races already having their own detailed weapons section, changing that would be alot more work for quite frankly not that much gain.

Also look at history, in your proposal you say nothing about swords, yet history has shown that polearms were never extremely popular, while swords have been extremely popular. I see where your idea is coming from, the logic of using tools as weapons, but i don't think that's the way it happened.

However, It's good to see that you are so motivated to see Santharia's fantasy world hasve a basis of logic to it.



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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #4 on: 23 January 2006, 22:11:00 »

I still can't seem to picture a bunch of elves with axes. One elf maybe, but as a common weapon... But you'll probably best to discuss that with the elven people around here.
Quote:
And bows would have rather limited use in dense woods. While the elves would undoubtedly hunt game, and the two most common hunting equipments were the bow and the spear, the elves would most likely restrict the size of their bows to small recurve bows. But as I said, spears and bows, due to being tools of the hunt, would be used by almost all tribes of all races.

Yes, but what I said was that elves in generally are very fond of there bows, so they'll most likely use it more then other races. I never said their bows wouldn't be small or that they were the only race to use bows.

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« Reply #5 on: 24 January 2006, 05:26:00 »

Elves don't need axes for cutting wood. Most tribes would not ry to harm a tree, but go around it if it hinders his way, use magic to build and form their houses, or live in the trees themselves. Using an axe for tobuild  a house - that is not the way elves live (maybe apart from the Diorye'oleal)

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« Reply #6 on: 24 January 2006, 06:33:00 »

Since, I have used axes a lot to cut wood in my village I must add the following remarks.

-Axes are hard to manage and using them requires more strength than intelligence.

-They are ungreceful as far as their use is regarded. The only type of axe that could be graceful using would be a small hand axe (used with one hand).

-Axes should represent to the elves the destruction of nature (since they are the main tool for cutting wood). Thus they should despise them.

-The light, versatile and elegant elves are more fit IMHO for swords, bows (definately), throowing spears and daggers. Axes and hamers are best for dwarves and orcs.

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« Reply #7 on: 24 January 2006, 13:59:00 »

Hammers are about as natural a dwarven weapon as you can get, having directly come from the basic hand tool and then having been redesigned to balance as a throwing weapon or a swung weapon.

Dwarven war axes evolved from the original pick-ax design, also originally a tool rather than a weapon.  The Caelerethian Thergerim are by nature stubborn but not particularly quarrelsome, and rarely become involved in humans' surface landwars... not much need for weaponry in their history and culture, except as noted.

Dwarves are low to the ground, burly-shouldered and broad-chested - all the right muscle groups are developed during their daily labour.  It became very natural for them to favour a swung weapon style rather than a thrusting, dancing, type (such as a rapier) - and they would have a difficult time (due to both their extravagant beards and chest expansion) drawing a regular longbow.  (in fact I think I'd better check that and make sure that where they require bows, it should be specified that they are cross-bows, a natural match to dwarven strength and shape...)

Thanks for your proposals, Ruil, but most of us have indeed put some thought and individual creativity into our races and their design,  rather than simply copying stereotypes.  Where you see unrealistic cliches or cheap anachronisms (like using a shield as a snowboard, perhaps?) please do feel free to point those out.


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Ruil Mallister
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« Reply #8 on: 24 January 2006, 22:46:00 »

Pikel:  Actually, quite frankly, I have wielded an axe, and it was still pretty easy to wield with one hand.  Since it was a small axe, 'twas rather light.  And have you ever picked up a hand axe?  They're light, durable, and very sharp.  Even an elf could undoubtedly pick one up and drive it into your heart.  As for elegance?  I've seen some pretty sweet-looking axes that put most swords I've seen to shame when it came to style.

And top-heaviness?  A topheavy weapon merely drives the weapon forward, albeit perhaps a little slower at the start.  Such as the flail, which is 100% topheavy, and most know of the speed and power that weapon can derive from its swings.  Just because I say axe doesn't mean I mean a two-handed battle-axe meant to be wielded by huge, burly men.  An axe is an axe.

And swords?  Spears?  Bows?  Of course I said little of these things!  Every race would no doubt use these weapons.  Some more than others.  I thought I had made it clear that these tools of war would most likely be used, but the usual preference would be for something else.

And, quite frankly, swords are overrated.  Platemail (which obviously has been in use by most of Sarvonia for some time) almost completely negated one-handed swords, as platemail armor was specifically designed to deflect sword strokes.  Thus swords all but disappeared from melee warfare except as a staple sidearm.  Weapons that could bypass the platemail armor became much more commonplace: i.e. the longbow, the mace/hammer, and the axe.  The axe had the weight to cleave through the platemail, the longbow and crossbow had the direct firepower to puncture through the armor, and maces/hammers simply caused you to die from massive hemhorraging.

Marvin: this is true.  The elves would probably be the first to develop a ...recurve bow...

...

...and in fact that brings up a rather good point that I did not think of before *I love you, Marvin*.  If the elves are such good archers, and have such an affinity for bows... well, bows are constructed of wood.  Where is one to get the wood?  The elves won't just trade with the neighboring humans or dwarves for wood to make their weapons of war when they are surrounded by the forests.  Cutting off some branches won't kill the tree.  Therefore it's not going against any laws or subconscious rules of the elves.

And axes are most likely the weapon out of the standard 3 melee types that use the most wood in its construction.  Since there is an obvious abundance of wood in the forest, and the axe uses the least metal of them all, it would be a logical choice as a staple melee weapon of war.

And fire.  Most of the races, I do believe, have fireplaces and fire pits to keep warm.  Firewood is what keeps fire alight, unless the elves always have a fire mage ready and waiting in the background to control the flame throughout the night *unlikely*.

Then homes.  Why haul stone and/or brick into the woods when one can simply construct the homes of wood?  Perhaps the elves have created some tree farms, much like today, where they grow trees to cut them down.  They're not really harming the forest then, and they're also getting their necessary wood for living.

I think that these points explain themselves rather well.  This is the medieval times, basically, and I doubt the elves would live in nothing but caves and/or castles.  And if they lived IN the trees, like, hollowing out trees to live in... would that not do just as much damage, if not more, than what I have suggested?  And if they instead live in the treetops, what would give them floors?  Ceilings and walls?  Most likely wood would.  And wood comes from trees.

Frankly, this conversion would a) not only be logical, but b) be rather cool and unique, and c) be easy to point out in the various entries for the races.  So... if you're really so hard-off about the elves not wielding axes as their main hand-weapon, don't have the elves live in nothing but forests.  It just doesn't make any sense for them NOT to utilize their surroundings.

As for the dwarves... I'm more than willing to work with you on it, Judith, but it seems to me that you're more agreeing with me than disagreeing.  
Quote:
"Hammers are about as natural a dwarven weapon as you can get, having directly come from the basic hand tool and then having been redesigned to balance as a throwing weapon or a swung weapon."
 That's the point I'm going for.  And I never said the dwarves would really like swords (or a rapier) or longbows (not even some humans could draw a longbow).  So that was a tad bit random...

Now what you all, please, need to do is realize that I'm not saying that these races will ONLY wield these weapons!  I'm just saying that the most COMMON weapons they'd use in WAR would be as I've described.  Elves would still use swords, dwarves would still use axes.  Heck, perhaps there could be a couple tribes of dwarves that grew up next to another, picked up the axe and liked it so much they used it as their main weapon henceforth.  Again, what I'm saying is just that the general weapons would be different.

And Judith?  I never said that you guys didn't put thought and creativity into your work.  As an artist I know and recognize that you all have put quite a bit of effort into your works: days, weeks, months, maybe even years.  I am trying, however, to put my own hard work into Santh.  Weapons are what I'm good at, and weapons are where I can help Santharia the most.




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and the perseverence of duty and vigilance... I live."

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Pikel
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« Reply #9 on: 25 January 2006, 01:17:00 »

Ruil, you seem to have forgotten somehting that was said earlier in this tread, that explains all your issues with elves and wood.

Quote:
Elves don't need axes for cutting wood. Most tribes would not ry to harm a tree, but go around it if it hinders his way, use magic to build and form their houses, or live in the trees themselves. Using an axe for tobuild a house - that is not the way elves live (maybe apart from the Diorye'oleal)


Thus, why would the elves ever need axes.

Also, Topheavy weapons produce momentum, which make the weapon harder to control. This is plain and simple physics. Granted, there are small axes where the momentum is minimized, but those are not common, for their reach is minimized by far. Yes, some axes in the right hands can be graceful, but they are usually small, or in the hands of someone highly highly trained. The average solider usually has basic training.

Quote:
And, quite frankly, swords are overrated.


They are still historically the one of, if not THE, most commonly used weapon of war. You can say you don't like them all you want. Doesn't change that little fact.

We all know and appreciate your want of being unique, and away from the stereotypes. But sometimes the stereotypes are there for a reason.

Also, the most common weapon in each race has already been defined, and stated many times throughout the site. Changing that now would be alot of work for something that isn't all that logical. Your ideas have to fit into the world....not vise versa.



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« Reply #10 on: 25 January 2006, 03:24:00 »

Actually, according to what I know, swords were among the least commonly used weapons in actual combat.  Spears, polearms, and bows were the weapons that were used most.  Swords, as Ruil said, were more of a sidearm, used only as a last resort.  They were, however, very popular weapons to have around, though they weren't used that much.  Apparently there is some sort of prestige associated with carrying one around or something.  However, I must point out that I'm more familiar with oriental than medieval european warfare, so it might not be entirely accurate in a medieval setting, though I suspect it is fairly close.  

Now, about elves using axes, I think it feels rather odd.  Axes of whatever size, as far as I can tell, are all weapons that require a fair bit of brute force to be effective.  I'm not sure elves are really suited to weilding them as weapons.  Elven fighting styles, to me, are more about finesse than brute force.  Axes don't really go well with that.  Also, as the others have mentioned, they might not actually have used axes much at all.  Perhaps we can wait on this one until one of the elf experts reappear to verify it.  

I think I should also mention that I had read somewhere that axes are particularly good weapons for fighting underground, and would thus be prefect for dwarves.  Now, I don't recall the source, so I can't check how trustworthy it is, but it might be something to look up, if you guys are interested.  

About bows, I don't know exactly what a recurve bow is, but assuming it is one of those smaller, non-longbow types of bows, I figure it'd be perfect for elves.  In a defensive fight (ie. defending their forests), they could easily hide in the foliage and pick off their enemies.  They'd probably have the most advanced forms of such bows.  Longbows, on the other hand, seem more suited to wide open spaces, so, yeah, probably more commonly used by humans.  

However, cultural influence and necessity could also affect what weapons are used.  The Maeverhim, for example, have a taboo against touching the ground, so I doubt they'd have much melee weapons, not that I think they're that likely to get into a war in the first place.  Elves and dwarves might well start developing and using spears and longbows (well, maybe not dwarves) if they happen to find themselves having to fight in the open very often.  Certain tribes might feel that it is cowardly to kill enemies from afar using bows, and thus have relatively few archers (I heard the ancient Greeks were like that, but, again, I don't know how trustworthy the source is).  Just a few examples.  


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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #11 on: 25 January 2006, 07:25:00 »

Quote:
Certain tribes might feel that it is cowardly to kill enemies from afar using bows, and thus have relatively few archers (I heard the ancient Greeks were like that, but, again, I don't know how trustworthy the source is). Just a few examples.

That would be orcs. They have bows though, but they are mostly used for hunting.
Quote:
Ngangas (Archers)
These are orcs who only fight with their hunting bows and a knife for selfdefense. They're looked upon by the warriors as they don't even fight in the first row of the battle. Thus they're not common among the "Great Orcs" - though Osther-Oc might train and deploy some for various tasks. Smaller orcs, those living in the wilderness however have been known to often participate in campaigns of the "Great Orcs" as such archers as they would be totally overpowered in the first battleline.

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« Reply #12 on: 25 January 2006, 07:52:00 »

Hey, I found a mistake!  I think this is how it's supposed to read:

"They're looked down upon by the warriors as they don't even fight in the first row of the battle. "


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« Reply #13 on: 25 January 2006, 08:05:00 »

I think the point you are missing Ruil is that over five years of work has gone into Caelereth already. Most tribes have a main developer - for example, Judy for the Dwarves, Viresse and Wren for the Elves, Koldar and Marvin for Orcs, Greybark for the Brownies... and within each tribe so much thought has gone into what sort of weapons they would be suited to - often, as you say, dependent on their lifestyle, physical build, and other factors. To suddenly blanket one particular race with a preference for one type of weapon would involve changing the very core beliefs of some tribes, perhaps even the race as a whole. My human Aeruillin tribes all differ, generally according to their history and tribe personality - the Cholians use their Krael (fish-gutting dagger) with deadly accuracy, since they are fishermen, and also their Sparth (fish-hunting spear) with great skill. The Ordions tend fields of amristh, and consequently have become masters of the scythe. One of my (as yet undeveloped) elven tribes would probably strike you down on the spot should you even dream of mentioning hacking down a living, breathing tree.

In general, Elves of Caelereth are greatly developed and each tribe has a character, and thus weapon choice of its own. Not to mention the affinity Elves have with nature, they are more like to ask a tree to move via magic, or build around it that destroy it, such a thing would be abhorrent to their nature - look at how Lothlorien was built in LOTR - a beautiful city, vast and proud, yet the trees were part of that city. I understand your logic regarding axes, but as other people have said, it requires power to wield one. I myself am a tall girl of average build - I am certainly not weak and feeble, I ride horses and I can tell you it takes great power to keep one in check and stead, especially when they are ten times as strong as you! However, even the small axes we have at our house, whenever I have tried to use them to chop wood, it has been a laughable sight of me hopping up and down trying to get the axe through the poor chunk of wood, bashing it against walls and so forth. So I know you need power for an axe, brute strength, and the grace and speed of an elf is put to far better use with such weapons as is suited to their physique. If you look at the elven tribes on the site, you will see how their weapons are often connected to their nature and how they live - so do not even use weapons at all!!! The mysterious Eophyrhim use weapons that have poisoned tips, that are light, quick and deadly. The warrior Tethinrhim tribe have developed their own unique weapons the Scourge and the Corran'Loh, unlike any other Elven tribes use, because of their warrior training. All throughout the site it is mentioned that the Elves are naturals with the bow, due to their quick reflexes and remarkable eyesight - could you imagine how much would need to be changed in order to say they were instead good with the axe.

Now, we are not sayind that your ideas are rubbish or terrible. Perhaps if at the conception of Caelereth they had been put forth they would have been adopted. Now, however, so much work has been done and many of these weapons are worked into the very history of various races, that to undo such work ould not only be an insult to those writers, but nigh on impossible.

However, perhaps your ideas can be taken on a smaller scale to work somewhere in Caelereth, not as a blanket proposal.

Anyway, I hope you see our point. We do not wish to discourage you from your creativity, it is just impossible to accomodate the ideas you have put forth, for the reasons I and others have mentioned.

I really hope that you are not discouraged by this. If it makes you feel any better, the first four or five entries I tried to put up for Santharia were rejected due to the fact that they were unsuitable, and just would never fit with systems already in place. I had put so much work into them, one of the entries was about twelve pages of Microsoft Word! It just wasn't possible for it to be used. Yes, put forth your ideas, but at the same time everything must flow and fit, or we will end up with a disjointed world.

:D  :D  :D  

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« Reply #14 on: 25 January 2006, 08:51:00 »

'Agreeing'?  Yes, to some extent, only as far as it concerns 'my' Thergerim:  I may be willing to incorporate maces into a not-yet existing tribe, but see no reason to revise my existing entries.  For convenience, here's a reference of the weaponry (not including common tools or utensils) which is considered unique to each dwarven tribe.  If one reads through the entry one will find a consistency to why that particular weapon is used/considered necessary/unique to that tribe.  

-------------------------------------------------

Kavogerim – an unusual desert tribe.  “Nastily-spiked and fanged halberds”, long thin boot daggers, Havach-plate shields (written by Bard Judith)
Kiingerim -  Wealthy non-warlike tribe, only army carries weapons.  Waafim soldiers use ½ ped throwing axes, Krosfim soldiers use large swinging battleaxes  (written by Victhorin, approved by Bard Judith)
Kurakim – Classic dwarven warriors in a inimical environment - “Famous for their beautifully crafted Fang-Axes, with gracefully-arced blades balanced by an armour-piercing spike, the Kurakim are masters of axework.” (written by Bard Judith)
Mitharim – “A dwarf would appear naked without his axe, whether it be the heavy-bladed wood axe of the forester or the sharp-beaked pickaxe of the miner. Women carry miniature versions known as Thrazeen (Little-Axe), which are about the size and shape of a human hammer or hatchet. Honed to a razoredge and kept in a leather sheath on the left hip, these Thrazeen are multi-purpose blades which can be used for most household, gardening, craft, or kitchen purposes. Some have been carefully balanced for throwing as well, thus making them formidable weapons.” (written by Bard Judith)
Susilgerim – “The preferred weapon of choice is a thin, needle-shaped piece of rock. However, the tip is hollowed out and filled with a deadly poison used from the leaves of certain trees found throughout the forest. The item is thrown and when it pierces an opponent the tip breaks off and the poison goes into the blood system causing paralysis and then death. The Imlith Dwarves also use stone spears with the same poisoning system...” (written by Drogo, approved by Bard Judith)
Thrumgolz – “A small eating-dagger and a smithy/jeweller’s hammer at their belt. The first is considered a necessary utensil…the second seems to play a ritual role in the dwarf's life, given to him or her at the ceremony of passing from adolescence to adulthood, but it can be used for rocktesting, piton-driving, small craft projects, hammering in nails, and in a pinch, an offensive throwing weapon.”  They also have “orehammers which serve as both basic tool and weapon; the one end bearing a slightly dished, rounded-diamond-face head which tapers into a thick "throat" over the hammer’s haft, and then flares out again into a slim, sharp, chisel-shape at the other end. Neither pick nor axe blade, this unique design is ideal for wedging in the cracks and crazings of the mountain rock, and forms a sturdy pry-bar…” as well as short hunting bows with  stubby quarrels.  These last should probably be changed to crossbows as per my comment.


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"Give me a land of boughs in leaf /  a land of trees that stand; / where trees are fallen there is grief; /  I love no leafless land."   --A.E. Housman
 
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24 October 2019, 13:31:22
Hi and happy 2019 shoutout from me.
22 February 2019, 06:47:10
A delightful 2019 shout-out to you all ^^
21 November 2018, 23:39:14
Seems none of us can stay away ..
09 March 2018, 23:37:46
Dream goes on as long as there are dreamers my friend.
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Oh, how I wish we could reawaken the Dream :)
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Hello everyone!
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Hello all! It's been a minute since I poked my nose in here. Can't remember if I ever did anything useful.
09 May 2017, 14:17:18
Ah, too bad that internet is so restricted in China, Ferra. Can't be much fun surfing the web that way if Big Brother's watching you... Hope you enjoy your stay nevertheless!
03 May 2017, 17:41:19
Hi, dear Arti and other developers!

This year I am in China and cannot use any Google services including YouTube. For this reason I stopped uploading new Nepris videos. I can also not read any comments there.

It just crossed my mind that this information might be useful to you.

Cheers

F
26 March 2017, 12:48:56
Hello to anyone that might read this. :)
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