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Author Topic: A most painful proposal...  (Read 6277 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #15 on: 25 January 2006, 10:45:00 »

If you could help me with my desert tribe, the Shendar that would be great!

I introduced the sling, for I think you can use it very well, if sitting or standing on a high riding animal ( I even studied some sites how to use it!)
But otherwise I'm quite helpless. Of course do my men need a sword, maybe really more for representation than actual use. But what kind of sword, a slightly curved one? A shorter one? (though long ones are much nicer!), a strogly curved dagger like they have in Jemen?

What what the more practical women use? (who are nearly as strong and able to fight as a man!) More the normal woman, what a warrior woman?

I would like to have weapon less combat as well, but a first attempt to do one for me failed - it didn't have the elegance I wished, nor did it fit to Shendar philosophy..

I'm open for suggestions!

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« Reply #16 on: 25 January 2006, 13:22:00 »

In fact it was the greeks of the homeric age (ca 1200 bC) that concidered it a shame to kill somebody without being stained by his blood. that's why Paris uses a bow to kill the brave Achilles.

As far as swords are concerned, thei use in ancient combat was rather common. The roman gladius is the most lethal sword in history. The samurai used the Katana and other sword variants as the main weapon.
Swords were used from infantry during pursuit when spears broke and when javelins were thrown. Cavalry used them when they engaged in close combat, where the lance is useless. Of course a hoplite in the phananx was hard to use his sword unless the spear broke. Let us no forget however that swords are best for a certain type of troops. Like today; a rocket launcher is more lethal than an assault riffle but not every soldier has one...  

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #17 on: 25 January 2006, 14:09:00 »

I'm late as always, but I need to comment here as well, as indeed I share the feelings of many who posted here especially concerning the usage of axes for elves.

So here are my 2 sans:

First of all: Weapons were allocated to certain races and tribes more or less already in the first eight years of Santharia's existence. You cannot make such dramatic changes at this point that easy, and aside from that the results so far are not acidentally. There's room for updates and some major changes, though, wherever necessary, but this needs to be considered carefully.

Let's look at the dwarves first: pickaxes, maces, and other blunt weapons - these sound reasonable in a way to me. Bard Judith has done a lot of work here before however, stressing hammers and axes, so I could see that all together in a mix, as all these weapons require basically strength and force. But the typcial fantasy cliché of dwarves using axes is actually quite logical to me, especially when you look at such typical Gimli axes.

E.g. Curgan's arguments hit the nail on the head I think, why elves wouldn't use any Gimli axes. It's against their physical disposition and against their philosophy of life and the universe to destroy trees like humans would. They build with nature not against it and see their magic as "natural" tool, maybe to let trees grow faster at desired spots, they'd use magic to bend them etc. Maybe they'd Axes they'd associate with a violation against nature, I'd see that as well that way. I could imagine throwing axes at elves, but a lumberjack elf knocking down one tree after the other? *Suddenly has this strange thought of Al from "Tool Time" with pointy ears looking for another tree to chop down* Seems somehow irritating, doesn't it?

Elves: daggers, bows, throwing spears seem to fit their stature and their abilities best from my point of view. A single handed axe I could still imagine somehow, but definitely not as a predominent weapon among the "light folk". Elves would use "elegant" stuff.

Orcs: flails, axes, maces, heavy swords - could imagine all of those, especially a flail seems very interesting for an orc to me.

Humans: I guess the sword is quite natural for humans as it's mainly an extension of the arm, so it would fit human ideology best (weapon as part of their body). Polearms seems also understandable with fighting horses and such.

The main issue are really the elves, everything else seems to be workable for me to a certain degree.


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Ruil Mallister
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« Reply #18 on: 25 January 2006, 14:44:00 »

Well, as it seems that every elf in this world seems to be a hippie tree-hugger, I will back down from my stoic belief that elves would actually find axes rather decent and convenient.

But as for the constant "elegant" issue.  I will say this once, and only once.  I have wielded a great many weapons in my time.  I have picked up a heavy as HELL sledgehammer.  It was a strength-tester at the Renaissance Festival up in Maryland.  The guy in front of me was twice my size, and brought that hammer down on the sweetspot of the strength-tester.  The ball shot up the board, up, up, up, up, up... and stopped at the second-to-last section, not even coming close to the bell.  He had simply picked up the hammer and brought it down.

Then it was my turn.  I stepped up, looking very scrawny compared to the beefcake before me, and several people had started to watch.  I picked up the hammer... then swung it off to my side before bringing it up above my head, then brought it down in a smooth motion.  The bell shot up the board, and came within an inch of striking the bell.  I got a wave of awe from the crowd, and other people started paying for me to have another go, and had a full crowd watching me as this young man was out-pounding huge, burly dudes.

So how the hell did I manage to out-power a man twice my size, and most likely 50% older than me!?  It's called technique. With any weapon, you do not just pick it up and drive it into your opponent.  It takes training and it takes practice, it takes TECHNIQUE!  The axe would build momentum, and would be perfect for the swirling, fluid strikes the elves are renown for.  Spinning on one foot, the elf could bring the axe above its head, then back down low and then strike upwards into the target's belly, nearly cleaving it in two.

Strength.  Means.  Damn near.  NOTHING!  If it was a two-handed axe that weighed 10 pounds, I could understand.  But one-handed weapons did NOT weigh more than 4 pounds.  Next time any of you ever see a 5 pound dumbell, pick it up and see for yourself just how light it is.

Don't EVER say that the axe isn't, or can't, be an elegant weapon.  Or I will personally drive that axe into your skull.

Now that I have said that, I've settled down and the real topic at hand shall be resumed.  Elves can easily develop their own kind of axe that would suit them far more easily than a sword.  Besides, if we're going for nature, then what do you think a sword represents?  The destruction of life.  Life is all nature is.  So don't tell me that they're going to shy away from the axe because of it's use for bringing down a tree or cutting off a couple branches, only to flee off to the weapon that is the single-most popular and well-known for ending lives.  Just don't go there.

As for rewriting anything, there would be nothing to rewrite.  No warrior, I repeat, NO WARRIOR EVER went onto the battlefield without a second weapon.  If they did, they might as well have kissed their lives goodbye.  That sidearm is more what I'm aiming for.  Tribes may have their preferences, but they'll always have sidearms.  Such as the knights of old Germany that came onto the battlefield with their Gothic plate, their gothic warhammers, their tall shields, and their warsword all equipped on their person.

If you want to focus on what each elf or dwarf or orc would prefer to wield as their main weapon, fine.  That's their main weapon.  Their sidearm would be a simple weapon of one-handed proportions.  That is really what I was aiming for.

Artemis - Did you miss the part where I said the elves would still be proficient with the bow?  Archers still had sidearms in case they were charged by soldiers!  Also, about the scythes... I failed to see a scythe entry on the main site of Santharia, so I am curious as to how your tribe managed to use them so proficiently.

Talia - I would be happy to help you with such things.  PM me and we'll discuss your tribe, okay?

Arti - your word is supreme.  I will back down.  End of discussion.




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and the perseverence of duty and vigilance... I live."

Edited by: Ruil Mallister at: 1/24/06 21:54
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Kalína Dalá'isyrás
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« Reply #19 on: 25 January 2006, 14:54:00 »

I have lifted weights and it isn't about simply picking it up but it is a matter of endurance. Picking something up is one thing, but using it in a specific way is another.

with that 5lb dumbell, do 50 reps, just pushing it up into the air starting at your shoulder. It starts to get heavy REALLY fast.

Or even just swinging them as you would an axe in battle...it takes months to train for such an endeavor but to have the strength AND endurance to continually swing them until a battle is over...

Edited by: Kalina Merenwen at: 1/24/06 21:56
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« Reply #20 on: 25 January 2006, 15:09:00 »

Just a note: I'm not the spirit floating over the waters of the Dev Forum deciding from a "supreme" position as the rumour goes. I probably couldn't even use a sledgehammer - not even to smash an idea. I just try to play an integrative role and add my 2 sans, which however is just my personal opinion. That's why we're discussing this issue here together.

In my supposed role of spirit floating over the Dev Forum waters I however have to point out that in your previous post, Ruil, a sentence mentioning the word "skull" could be formulated more non-violently as well - and should be written that way in a similar case in the future;)    


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 1/24/06 22:13
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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #21 on: 25 January 2006, 17:23:00 »

Quote:
Don't EVER say that the axe isn't, or can't, be an elegant weapon. Or I will personally drive that axe into your skull.

Like Kali said, take a beefy Losh-Oc and a scrawny elf and give them each a hammer/axe. Now imagine them ploughing through multiple targets/having to strike multiple times and try to image who will do better. And since it's the momentum of the weapon that does the most damage to the armour, light axes will start loosing their advantage me thinks.

But to keep it with axes and elves: how about machetes? They are axe-like, fairly light, one handed and useful for cutting branches. Elves are going to cut dead wood, or maybe even 'trim' trees, so that seems more likely option to me.

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #22 on: 26 January 2006, 15:30:00 »

Quote:
Or I will personally drive that axe into your skull.


It would be nice, if you would avoid such sentences.

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Curgan
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« Reply #23 on: 27 January 2006, 10:18:00 »

Ok, back to medieval weapons usage manual.

A warrior wielding a sladgehammer or a heavy double bladed axe must have two qualities; Tecnique and physical strength. As it is imposible for him to defend effectively against fast swing and thrusts -of a sword for example- he is forced to pin down his opponent with constant blows. Why defense is imposible? Because the sledgehammer is too heavy to swing left and right in evasive maneuvers against a sword or a lance for more than five minutes. This is the reason that tecnique isn't enough. Furthermore, a weapon is carried in long marches before battle and all day long during peacetime. A supposed battle on the otherhand lasts for about eight hours. Try to imagine a person without physical strength carrying a sledgehammer in a 30 kilometers march, charge the enemy with it, running hell bent for leather 300 meters and then fighting with it for eight hours...
It is just not practical...

Curgan

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« Reply #24 on: 09 February 2006, 01:49:00 »

Just a quick thought. Even if the elves had started off with axes they have had a HUGE amount of time to develop new and more elegant weaponry. We are talking about a race that lives for hundreds of years. It makes sense to me that they would develop weapons that are quick and light to suit their body types. Also, as someone well versed in he use of various bladed weapons I can attest to the fact that you need great upper body strength to swing an axe. I have a double bitted(bladed) axe here at home that I use for cutting wood for the fireplace. It is equivalent to the few battleaxes I have had the chance to play around with. I am in good shape. I practice with my swords for at least an hour everyday but I find the axe difficult. Definetly not the weapon of an elf. Now polearms on the other hand are easy to use and effective due to the increased reach and the addition of having to ends of a weapon to fight with.

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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #25 on: 01 March 2006, 18:04:00 »

Quote:
Well, as it seems that every elf in this world seems to be a hippie tree-hugger, I will back down from my stoic belief that elves would actually find axes rather decent and convenient.

Well, I found that fairly rude. That is precisly the kind of attitude that makes us humans sterotyped as steryotypers! Its even beggining to affect us Eyelians! The elves are certinly not hippies! They love nature and prefer not to destroy it simply to make thier lives better. They do not kill for the purpose of making thier lives easier or because they think they have a right to. When they kill, they do it in a justified way to protect thier people and culture. This is when the sword comes in handy.  

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« Reply #26 on: 01 March 2006, 18:24:00 »

@Nsikigan: take a look at those Coor'rhem in Nybelmar... and what, do you have something against hippies? lol :smokin

Otherwise this is quite an interesting discussion here, yet there is no concrete proposal anywhere. I mean, is there specifically a tribe here that uses weapons that they shouldn't use? Working on a case by case basis is easier and can produce more reasonable dialogues.

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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #27 on: 07 March 2006, 18:08:00 »

Quote:
@Nsikigan: take a look at those Coor'rhem in Nybelmar... and what, do you have something against hippies? lol  


Thats what I have against hippies. Elves dont do drugs. :)  

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A government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it- HD Thoreau
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