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Author Topic: CD Help  (Read 21022 times)
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Ryvic Darkveil
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« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2012, 07:10:03 AM »

Just remembered and idea I had. You said that when mages strengthen ounia, the links around it turn from ahm to soor. The ounia connected to these links are also strengthened somewhat, so S2+ mages will pick ounia based on the ounia around them. Would it be possible to pick ounia that have other elements around them, and thus indirectly strengthen other elements? So you could pick water ounia with fire ounia around them, so that the object moves. Just an idea.


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You would require a great deal of strength to lift it (depending on how large it is) and a great deal of strength to propel it through the air with enough force to damage enemies.
Hmm.. Hadn't thought much about weight. I think you could move the thing somewhat by strengthening cohesion on one side and weakening it on the other side, like - as I said - muscles. And something like a water whip would only weigh a heb or so. you'd probably whack someone with it so it wraps around them, then freeze it. If you had enough skill you could make it freeze in spikes going into them. In any case, pieces of ice would probably deal the damage, with the liquid water providing control.


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As a general rule, mages aren't the strongest of people. They're academics, philosophers, thinkers--people who have spent their lives in the realm of the mind cogitating on Ximaxian philosophy
Yes, I suppose so. But Ryvic works out. :P


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A purist--I appreciate that.  :) Fire mages can make heat and animation--and animation is a rather high-level magical concept (this property actually branches into necromancy). And yes, technically, I could tell the water mage that he can't throw water orbs, or a fire mage that he needs to be level 7 or 8 before he can actually form anything with the semblance of a fireball;
A fire ball isn't really effective. It disappears way too fast. You need some sort of fuel. (see: Abngor and Tak’s Super Flammable and Sticky Solution) You'd be better off making their clothes spontaneously combust(<- lol, not in Firefox's dictionary), or melting their armor onto their body... yeah....


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however, the purpose here is to find a system that is cognitively interesting, not cognitively frustrating or off-putting. RPGs are, at their heart, a game, and games are meant to be fun. As long as we keep people from god-modding, I'm willing to let the low-level fire and water mages toss their respective projectiles accordingly.  :)
Very well.


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It exists with all the magical systems. We can't always explain why the world works the way it does--not even our own universe. We come up with theories and philosophies, but there's always something that doesn't quite fit, always something more we need to research or ponder. The Ximaxian system is the same way.
Trying to invent an imaginary universe really makes you appreciate how complex ours is.


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You sound like a purist, and that's fine.
I think I need a better word... aha! Fussbudget! jk


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In the end, it is those who understand the system and its limitations that we allow to play higher-level characters. However, as the 'magic moderator' and a magic developer, I don't want magic to be a cognitively impregnable system--wiping out the mage population on the boards and making the profession too much trouble to play--so I allow some flexibility.
So when you finally understand how the system works, you realize, "Hey, everyone's a Fire-Mage!"
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« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2012, 06:12:30 AM »

Just remembered and idea I had. You said that when mages strengthen ounia, the links around it turn from ahm to soor. The ounia connected to these links are also strengthened somewhat, so S2+ mages will pick ounia based on the ounia around them. Would it be possible to pick ounia that have other elements around them, and thus indirectly strengthen other elements? So you could pick water ounia with fire ounia around them, so that the object moves. Just an idea.
As a water mage, I only really know how to locate water ounia. I won't know where the other ounia are, or how to connect to them. So I can intentionally connect water ounia to other water ounia through soor connections, but I cannot connect water ounia to fire ounia, or wind ounia, etc.


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Hmm.. Hadn't thought much about weight. I think you could move the thing somewhat by strengthening cohesion on one side and weakening it on the other side, like - as I said - muscles. And something like a water whip would only weigh a heb or so. you'd probably whack someone with it so it wraps around them, then freeze it. If you had enough skill you could make it freeze in spikes going into them. In any case, pieces of ice would probably deal the damage, with the liquid water providing control.
I'm not sure how strengthening and weakening the property of cohesion would help with the weight: the weight of the water will still be the same, though weakening the property of cohesion may make the structure fall apart--therefore the weight would decrease, but so, too, would the amount of water you're trying to move. The water whip is a neat idea, though, and I think that could work well.


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Yes, I suppose so. But Ryvic works out. :P
Hawt.  :P


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A fire ball isn't really effective. It disappears way too fast. You need some sort of fuel. (see: Abngor and Tak’s Super Flammable and Sticky Solution) You'd be better off making their clothes spontaneously combust(<- lol, not in Firefox's dictionary), or melting their armor onto their body... yeah....
In Ximaxian philosophies, there is no fuel necessary. Fireballs may be an incorrect name: they would appear more like glowing spheres of plasma. But your other suggestions are possible as well.  :)


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Trying to invent an imaginary universe really makes you appreciate how complex ours is.
It really does!  :)


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I think I need a better word... aha! Fussbudget! jk
We'll make that your Santharian title.   :P J/K!


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So when you finally understand how the system works, you realize, "Hey, everyone's a Fire-Mage!"
Haha! More like everyone does a little bit of everything. It kind of hammers home elven philosophy: that everything is inter-connected, and that it's a bit silly to break everything into pieces.  :)
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Ryvic Darkveil
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« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2012, 03:03:24 PM »

As a water mage, I only really know how to locate water ounia. I won't know where the other ounia are, or how to connect to them. So I can intentionally connect water ounia to other water ounia through soor connections, but I cannot connect water ounia to fire ounia, or wind ounia, etc.
I thought so.


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I'm not sure how strengthening and weakening the property of cohesion would help with the weight: the weight of the water will still be the same, though weakening the property of cohesion may make the structure fall apart--therefore the weight would decrease, but so, too, would the amount of water you're trying to move.
Illustrations!

This is supposed to show what water looks like with varying levels of cohesion. Note that I have numbered them. 1 is normal, 2 is a mage slightly strengthening it, and 3 is a mage doing a lot.


A comparison between            Step 1: strengthen one            Reverse the relative            Using complex cohesion         freeze it, and
strengths 2 and 3.               side heavily, and the other            strengths, swinging the         strengths, form a spike.      watch your foe fall.
                                    side just enough to hold together.         water back. When you
                                                                                          reach the peak, 'cut off'
                                                                                          a section by releasing the
                                                                                          enhanced cohesion.

I hope the formatting looks right on your screen. I can repost without it if it doesn't work.

Would it be inappropriate to use illustrations in my CD, of different magical attacks and such?


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The water whip is a neat idea, though, and I think that could work well.
:)


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In Ximaxian philosophies, there is no fuel necessary. Fireballs may be an incorrect name: they would appear more like glowing spheres of plasma. But your other suggestions are possible as well.  :)
I meant more that your heat impulse wouldn't be sufficient to facilitate the ignition of your opponent. Plasma might do it, though.


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Haha! More like everyone does a little bit of everything. It kind of hammers home elven philosophy: that everything is inter-connected, and that it's a bit silly to break everything into pieces.  :)
Well, us frail-minded humans need a handicap.
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Deklitch Hardin
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« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2012, 05:06:22 PM »

I'm sorry for sticking my nose in here, but this kind of raised a question in my mind ...

Just remembered and idea I had. You said that when mages strengthen ounia, the links around it turn from ahm to soor. The ounia connected to these links are also strengthened somewhat, so S2+ mages will pick ounia based on the ounia around them. Would it be possible to pick ounia that have other elements around them, and thus indirectly strengthen other elements? So you could pick water ounia with fire ounia around them, so that the object moves. Just an idea.
As a water mage, I only really know how to locate water ounia. I won't know where the other ounia are, or how to connect to them. So I can intentionally connect water ounia to other water ounia through soor connections, but I cannot connect water ounia to fire ounia, or wind ounia, etc.

Could a fire mage and an earth mage (for example) who are really good friends somehow combine their powers (just like the Planeteers) and the fire mage control the fire ounia around them, and the earth mage likewise with the earth ounia? And then somehow they can combine what they are doing and have their elemental spells combine, sit down over a nice cup of tea and perhaps scones or bikkies and combine their plans for disc domination?

Some of that was silly ... but I was curious if practitioners of the different schools can work together like that.
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« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2012, 11:21:32 PM »

Quote from: Ryvic Darkveil link=topic=8299.msg293866#msg293866
Illustrations!

This is supposed to show what water looks like with varying levels of cohesion. Note that I have numbered them. 1 is normal, 2 is a mage slightly strengthening it, and 3 is a mage doing a lot.


A comparison between            Step 1: strengthen one            Reverse the relative            Using complex cohesion         freeze it, and
strengths 2 and 3.               side heavily, and the other            strengths, swinging the         strengths, form a spike.      watch your foe fall.
                                    side just enough to hold together.         water back. When you
                                                                                          reach the peak, 'cut off'
                                                                                          a section by releasing the
                                                                                          enhanced cohesion.

I hope the formatting looks right on your screen. I can repost without it if it doesn't work.
I like the illustrations!--though I don't think the formatting has come out as you intended. Keep in mind that you can use tables to put things into columns.

It's interesting to see the pictures because they give me some idea of how you're envisioning this. For example, I see that you're meshing Terran notions of elements with Ximaxian notions of ounia. H2O doesn't exist in Santharia as a concept. Coalescing or using cohesion on a mass of water isn't likely to expand or contract the car'all as a whole: rather, it'll keep a car'all primarily consisting of water ounia more 'together'. (Keep in mind that water actually expands when it freezes)

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Would it be inappropriate to use illustrations in my CD, of different magical attacks and such?
Not at all! You can certainly include them if you like!


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Well, us frail-minded humans need a handicap.
That's what I'm here for.  :P j/k!



I'm sorry for sticking my nose in here, but this kind of raised a question in my mind ...
Not at all, Dek! It's an open discussion.


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Could a fire mage and an earth mage (for example) who are really good friends somehow combine their powers (just like the Planeteers) and the fire mage control the fire ounia around them, and the earth mage likewise with the earth ounia? And then somehow they can combine what they are doing and have their elemental spells combine, sit down over a nice cup of tea and perhaps scones or bikkies and combine their plans for disc domination?

Some of that was silly ... but I was curious if practitioners of the different schools can work together like that.
Haha--Yes, they certainly could, and in fact mages of different schools have worked together in the past--for example, at the construction and reconstruction of the Academy (Xarl had sort of a desultory group with him when he went back), and even the reconstruction of the City after the 1480 b.S. explosion was likely done by many mages of different schools working together with the citizens. There is no reason I see that two mages couldn't affect the same car'all.
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« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2012, 12:22:53 AM »

I like the illustrations!-
Thank you.

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-though I don't think the formatting has come out as you intended. Keep in mind that you can use tables to put things into columns.
I'll have to play around with that later. Here's what it said:

A comparison between strengths 2 and 3.

Step 1: strengthen one side heavily, and the other side just enough to hold together.

Reverse the relative strengths, swinging the water back. When you reach the peak, 'cut off' a section by releasing the enhanced cohesion.

Using complex cohesion strengths, form a spike.

freeze it, and watch your foe fall.


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It's interesting to see the pictures because they give me some idea of how you're envisioning this. For example, I see that you're meshing Terran notions of elements with Ximaxian notions of ounia. H2O doesn't exist in Santharia as a concept. Coalescing or using cohesion on a mass of water isn't likely to expand or contract the car'all as a whole: rather, it'll keep a car'all primarily consisting of water ounia more 'together'. (Keep in mind that water actually expands when it freezes)
Well, I was using dihydrogen-monoxide so I'd have something to draw. The whole idea did depend on being able to localize coalescence. Is the first picture acceptable, if the x-axis is time and you ignore the magnifications?


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Not at all! You can certainly include them if you like!
Sweet! I'll try to keep the formatting more simple... and working..
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Leif Terskun
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« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2012, 12:45:13 AM »

Now that Dek's set the example, I feel brave enough to poke my nose in...I shouldn't, I always get it terribly wrong Devside when I try to talk about magic, but anyway. The formatting is fine for me, though, so that's something.

Rayne, are atomic concepts and Ximaxian ones incompatible? If Ximaxians see ounia as the fundamental constituents of everything? Draw the comparison to the Greeks on whom our conception (the Caelerethian one) of the elements is based; there were prominent "atomists" among them. If, furthermore, Ximaxian magic is fundamentally a worldview, and so garners potency from intent, would thinking of it as Ryvic is doing niot be sufficient?

If you want to reject the idea of a fundamental atomic structure, you'd also have to reject the idea of water expanding as it freezes; anyway, expansion only overtakes contraction at about four centigrade. Until then water contracts (slightly) as you cool it.

If I understand Ryvic aright, however, it seems that what he's saying is that if you can strengthen the cohesion of the water, that will allow you to move it. I don't know enough about the area to say whether you can affect cohesion, but if the car'all affects the form and the car'all is mostly water, then through affecting water ounia one might affect the form, which seems to be the same thing.

But, if you think of the cohesion as like rubber bands or springs, then if you have shorter/stronger bands on one side (greater cohesion/togetherness) than on the other, one could alter the form and, as Ryvic suggests, almost flick or throw water. I don't know the current state of the actual nature of the oun, so this may or may not work; but deductively - that is, based on observation of what actually happens* - it seems to make sense to me.

In ignorance, good intentions and hope of avoiding too much wrongness,

Leif.

*This might be the wrong end to approach the problem from, but I make no apology. It's scientific, and might be an approximation of how scholars would think of the problem, bearing in mind the conflict between what has been decided happens and what the purist theory might hold.
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« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2012, 06:01:36 AM »

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Is the first picture acceptable, if the x-axis is time and you ignore the magnifications?
When you say "cohesion", do you mean "contraction"? I view cohesion as holding things together: something with high cohesion will tend not to break apart. It sounds something like a derivative of water's desire to emulate the solidity of earth. I suppose Fire has the property of expansion, but I'm not necessarily sure if water has the property of contraction or not (the properties of the elements don't always exactly line up neatly.

You're starting to get near the edges of where the system has been developed, and seeing some of the issues we've had on the development side when you try to break things down. It begins to get a bit messy, and shades of grey start to appear.

Back to your illustrations, though--I could see perhaps being able to create a large (for lack of a better word) blob of water that stays together fairly well. When hurled or thrown, it would naturally take on an aerodynamic shape (similar to the elongated shape rain takes as it falls). In this shape, it could likely be frozen to create an ice shard or spear. But we're talking fairly high levels here: maintaining the cohesion of the shape and then freezing it almost instantly takes a lot of... mental/magical acrobatics, so to speak. But yes, quite possible, I would think.


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If you want to reject the idea of a fundamental atomic structure, you'd also have to reject the idea of water expanding as it freezes...
Oh, my dear Leif, you are too smart for your own good! Never let your intelligence trump common sense: of course water expands as it freezes in Santharia (at least, I assume Shocked ). I am rejecting the structure of atoms and electrons and protons because they don't exist as a theory in this world. The Ximaxian system, and all systems of this kind, are more difficult to learn if you throw the shadow of your own conceptual assumptions upon them. It's one reason why the system is so hard to learn: you have to abandon all your previous learning, what you were taught in school, what you were told by teachers and parents. (If I may invoke Buddhist philosophy: your cup is full--empty it!) It's important to never forget that we're talking about a world that's a disk, one where the sun goes around US, not us around it.

You are absolutely right, though, Leif: the Ximaxian system is based on many Greek philosophies, including the four elements--and of course Empedocles's theories about Love and Strife being the two funamental forces in the universe sound a lot like Xeua and Ecua ( heart Empedocles--what a hippie). Atoms and Ounia have a lot in common: they are both small particles that determine the nature of a thing. However, the Ximaxian system and the Atom system are incompatible viewpoints.

It's not merely because Ounia are manipulated by the will and atoms, by energy. They also behave differently. If I press my will to strengthen an ounia, it strengthens properties of that ounia. If I apply energy to an atom, however, it is likely to leave (like water molecules leaving a heated pot of water) or, in some cases, transform the atom itself into an ion by providing energy to liberate an electron.

However, if I had to identify one difference that I felt most drastically highlighted the difference of these systems, I would say it would be that the fundamental nature of ounia is both physical and spiritual. That's what makes the Ximaxian system philosophical rather than scientific. Atoms don't really, in and of themselves, have those qualities. It's one reason why I no longer approach the Ximaxian system from a scientific point of view: you can't. It's not designed that way.

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But, if you think of the cohesion as like rubber bands or springs, then if you have shorter/stronger bands on one side (greater cohesion/togetherness) than on the other, one could alter the form and, as Ryvic suggests, almost flick or throw water.
You can flick/throw water without casting a spell on it, in most cases. (Perhaps we all need to have a pool party to prove the point   Roll Eyes ). Regardless, though, I think we should define cohesion. Yes, I see cohesion as togetherness, but the way you describe it sounds like elasticity or contraction rather than cohesion. Dough has more cohesion than flour does because it stays together better, but it doesn't make the dough contract or turn springy--it won't snap back together if you stretch it out, for example (we also need a baking party, I think.  :P Let's make cookies!)
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« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2012, 06:47:04 AM »

Not my thread, not my area, but I'll note that when I said scientific, I meant in the sense of observing the world and coming up with a theory to explain it; I'm not trying to change whether mages actually can do these things, but point out how you could come up with a theoretical basis for the fact that they can.

I'm not advocating a full-on atomic theory here, but merely trying to reconcile Ryvic's ideas with the Ximaxian system as I understand it.

My tentative belief is that magical theories are about worldviews; so a workable worldview is what needs to be determined, I suppose.

I'd say that in your dough example, you actually lessen the togetherness through stretching it, whereas with a spring you work against it; if you can manipulate the togetherness of something, you can move it relative to itself. Probably I'm wrong, but anyway: If I increase the togetherness of something that has space, it will move together; if I do it instantly, it will act like a spring that until a moment ago was under tension. If, say, I take an orb of water, it could be made to move almost like a snake or bacterium - less together part moves forward, increase togetherness, pulls the rest along. Rinse and repeat. With practice, it would be possible to move it.

As I said, probably wrong. Also not my place.
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« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2012, 08:57:29 AM »

When you say "cohesion", do you mean "contraction"? I view cohesion as holding things together: something with high cohesion will tend not to break apart. It sounds something like a derivative of water's desire to emulate the solidity of earth. I suppose Fire has the property of expansion, but I'm not necessarily sure if water has the property of contraction or not (the properties of the elements don't always exactly line up neatly.
Cohesion - The sticking together of particles of the same substance.

If you can make like particles want to be together more, they will move towards each other. Emphasis on move. If stick-togetherness can be increased, contraction is a natural by-product.

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You're starting to get near the edges of where the system has been developed, and seeing some of the issues we've had on the development side when you try to break things down. It begins to get a bit messy, and shades of grey start to appear.
But of course :).

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Back to your illustrations, though--I could see perhaps being able to create a large (for lack of a better word) blob of water that stays together fairly well. When hurled or thrown, it would naturally take on an aerodynamic shape (similar to the elongated shape rain takes as it falls). In this shape, it could likely be frozen to create an ice shard or spear. But we're talking fairly high levels here: maintaining the cohesion of the shape and then freezing it almost instantly takes a lot of... mental/magical acrobatics, so to speak. But yes, quite possible, I would think.
Look at the second-to-last step in my second picture. If you increase stick-togetherness on the sides, while releasing (meaning, stop increasing) it at the tips, the sides will squish the tips out. If done correctly, this would be sharp. I do agree that subsequently freezing it mid-flight would be strenuous.


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It's not merely because Ounia are manipulated by the will and atoms, by energy. They also behave differently. If I press my will to strengthen an ounia, it strengthens properties of that ounia. If I apply energy to an atom, however, it is likely to leave (like water molecules leaving a heated pot of water) or, in some cases, transform the atom itself into an ion by providing energy to liberate an electron.
Atoms are manipulated by forces, technically. You are right that the effects are different.


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Dough has more cohesion than flour does because it stays together better,
Yes.

[/quote]
but it doesn't make the dough contract or turn springy--it won't snap back together if you stretch it out,[/quote]
It won't snap, but it will squoosh back up if you poke it. Things with cohesion want to be as close to every other like thing as possible. Incidentally, the shape this creates is a sphere.
If cohesion were increased (say, from '1' to '2') in a specific volume of like particles, they would still want to be near the weaker-cohesive LP's (1+2=3), but more than that (2+2=4) with the stronger-cohesive LP's. Thus, the #2 LP's would move towards a sphere in the middle of the #1 LP's. If you continued to affect a certain volume, say, a ring around a sphere, you could make a football shape.
Contraction might also occur (it would IRL), but I don't know.
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« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2012, 03:25:36 AM »

Not my thread, not my area, but I'll note that when I said scientific, I meant in the sense of observing the world and coming up with a theory to explain it; I'm not trying to change whether mages actually can do these things, but point out how you could come up with a theoretical basis for the fact that they can.
Ah! By "scientific" you meant "empirical" (that is one of "scientific"'s denotations, I think, but it has so many!). Yes: to understand the Ximaxian system, you really have to start with a tabular rasa, so to speak, and start at the basics of ounia, xeua, car'allia, etc.

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I'm not advocating a full-on atomic theory here, but merely trying to reconcile Ryvic's ideas with the Ximaxian system as I understand it.
It's hard to not overlay modern perspectives and insights. Not to say they should be discounted entirely, though: other philosophical systems help to inform the Ximaxian perspective (i.e. "This is how modern science explains it. How do we? What can we borrow, and what works?") But the relationship should be loose, I think, rather than semi-deterministic, and I think it's best to start by emptying one's cup rather than trying to build precarious, unstable, and inconsistent bridges across different perspectives/theories.

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My tentative belief is that magical theories are about worldviews; so a workable worldview is what needs to be determined, I suppose.
Exactly! This is what all the discussion on the Development Board (for that last 10+ years  buck) has been all about. We have the basics, but we still struggle with the details. That's why it's always nice to have fresh perspectives--like yours and Ryvic's. Your questions and perspectives illuminate angles we did not see.

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I'd say that in your dough example, you actually lessen the togetherness through stretching it, whereas with a spring you work against it; if you can manipulate the togetherness of something, you can move it relative to itself. Probably I'm wrong, but anyway: If I increase the togetherness of something that has space, it will move together; if I do it instantly, it will act like a spring that until a moment ago was under tension. If, say, I take an orb of water, it could be made to move almost like a snake or bacterium - less together part moves forward, increase togetherness, pulls the rest along. Rinse and repeat. With practice, it would be possible to move it.
I think that, in the dough example, the property of cohesion actually remains the same. You have merely applied enough force to break it, but the property of togetherness is maintained in the separate pieces you create. If I take a stone with the property of "hardness" or "solidity" and somehow manage to whack it into two parts (assuming consistency throughout), than is either piece any the less hard or solid? No: they are just as hard/solid as before--only now they are two pieces instead of one.

The way snakes moves involves the use of force and tension between its various parts. Bacteria move by pressing themselves forward. Neither of these, I think, relates to the way water would move. In both cases, it is the property of "animation" (Fire) that moves these creatures along.[/quote]

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As I said, probably wrong. Also not my place.
You learn the most from being wrong (Ava knows I have!), and it is certainly your place! Anyone interested in magic has a place in a discussion on the subject.  :)


If you can make like particles want to be together more, they will move towards each other. Emphasis on move. If stick-togetherness can be increased, contraction is a natural by-product.
Hm. Let's back this up a little bit. Cohesion is the tendency to stick together as one mass. Moving toward each other is more coalescence (also a property of water). However, coalescence doesn't necessarily mean contraction. On a window, when it rains and the droplets come down, coalescence occasionally turns small droplets into larger droplets. They cohere, becoming one large droplet. Have they contracted? No: the large droplet is neither more nor less than the sum of the smaller droplets of which it consists.

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Look at the second-to-last step in my second picture. If you increase stick-togetherness on the sides, while releasing (meaning, stop increasing) it at the tips, the sides will squish the tips out. If done correctly, this would be sharp. I do agree that subsequently freezing it mid-flight would be strenuous.
Cohesion generally occurs around a central point. Perhaps that's where we're breaking down a little. I have assumed that the center of cohesion would always be in the center of the car'all, though I suppose it doesn't have to be. You could constantly create a point of cohesion that was off-center to create movement; however, you could not them create an aerodynamic shape allowing you to create a sharp point.

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Atoms are manipulated by forces, technically. You are right that the effects are different.
Well, technically, fields. But now we're digressing. buck

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It won't snap, but it will squoosh back up if you poke it. Things with cohesion want to be as close to every other like thing as possible. Incidentally, the shape this creates is a sphere.
If cohesion were increased (say, from '1' to '2') in a specific volume of like particles, they would still want to be near the weaker-cohesive LP's (1+2=3), but more than that (2+2=4) with the stronger-cohesive LP's. Thus, the #2 LP's would move towards a sphere in the middle of the #1 LP's. If you continued to affect a certain volume, say, a ring around a sphere, you could make a football shape.
Contraction might also occur (it would IRL), but I don't know.
You haven't defined your acronyms here. LP = Like Particles? Are your numbers here referring to degree of cohesion, coalescence, or both? The antecedents to your pronouns ("they") are also ambiguous. How many volumes of like particles are you referring to? I don't think I quite understand what you're trying to say here.  Undecided
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« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2012, 03:57:02 AM »

My tentative belief is that magical theories are about worldviews; so a workable worldview is what needs to be determined, I suppose.
A worldview based on what you see, which happens as a result of what Is. To answer some of these questions, I think we need to define what Is, independent of Caelerethian theories. Our universe works in one way, and we can try to figure that out. Caelereth may work in a different way, but we need to define it before we can imagine how Caelerethians would see it.


I think that, in the dough example, the property of cohesion actually remains the same. You have merely applied enough force to break it, but the property of togetherness is maintained in the separate pieces you create..
It does remain the same. However, if you increased cohesion, the dough would clump back together again.


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Hm. Let's back this up a little bit. Cohesion is the tendency to stick together as one mass. Moving toward each other is more coalescence (also a property of water). However, coalescence doesn't necessarily mean contraction. On a window, when it rains and the droplets come down, coalescence occasionally turns small droplets into larger droplets. They cohere, becoming one large droplet. Have they contracted? No: the large droplet is neither more nor less than the sum of the smaller droplets of which it consists.
Indeed they have not contracted. But cohesion has the same strength; the water wants to be together the same. The only reason all the water in the universe isn't a single big ball is that there are other force (like gravity and friction) that keep them from moving together.
If you made the water want to be together more, water from farther away could overcome the other forces, and you'd have a bigger blob.

The contraction aspect does draw heavily on Terran physics. IRL, cohesion is a function of electrical force. Like charges pull together and opposite ones repel each other. To increase cohesion's strength, you would increase the former and weaken the latter aspect. The particles would move from farther, and they would get closer together. Of course, that's real-world. If Caelereth doesn't work that way, it'd be nice to know how it does work.


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Cohesion generally occurs around a central point. Perhaps that's where we're breaking down a little. I have assumed that the center of cohesion would always be in the center of the car'all, though I suppose it doesn't have to be. You could constantly create a point of cohesion that was off-center to create movement; however, you could not them create an aerodynamic shape allowing you to create a sharp point.
Perhaps I haven't said it clearly before. I've said 'locally' a few times. The idea was that you could have a non-constant cohesion level in a single car'all. I suppose that's not the way things work, but it's nice and increases the possibilities exponentially.


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You haven't defined your acronyms here. LP = Like Particles? Are your numbers here referring to degree of cohesion, coalescence, or both? The antecedents to your pronouns ("they") are also ambiguous. How many volumes of like particles are you referring to? I don't think I quite understand what you're trying to say here.  Undecided
LP= Like Particles. Numbers are different 'levels'. I did a poor job with that, sorry.
'Volume' referred to a specific space, the idea being that as particles leave that space, you stop affecting them, and as more come in, you affect those. It was all heavily dependent on my (I think) misconception that you can affect certain parts of a car'all in one way, and other parts in another way.

I hope that cleared some things up.
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« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2012, 04:12:24 AM »

On a scale of one to twelve, how out of date is the on-site Water entry?

Ryvic, that was the point I was trying to make, I think - but from the other direction. We know (I think) that Ximaxian mages can shape water; it is a rare example of deducing a theory in a completely imaginary work.

Rayne, my point about snakes was that if you can do complex strengths of togetherness, you would be able to manipulate tensions in the same way, and (re. the rock) I'd say you actually reduced the togetherness to nothing between those two bits, just as if I bend a piece of metal I gradually reduce togetherness until it falls apart. If I then increased togetherness (probably hard from nothing, but say it was cracked) it would come back together.
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« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2012, 04:37:29 AM »

On a scale of one to twelve, how out of date is the on-site Water entry?
With one being not out of date at all and twelve being utterly wrong? Maybe 10 or so, I would guess. The problem is that when we first wrote up the entries on the elements, we didn't have a very good handle on the relationship between the properties of an element and the spheres. Now we know they're quite different, and a lot will need to change as a result--including, perhaps, how these kinds of entries are put together.

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Ryvic, that was the point I was trying to make, I think - but from the other direction. We know (I think) that Ximaxian mages can shape water; it is a rare example of deducing a theory in a completely imaginary work.

Rayne, my point about snakes was that if you can do complex strengths of togetherness, you would be able to manipulate tensions in the same way, and (re. the rock) I'd say you actually reduced the togetherness to nothing between those two bits, just as if I bend a piece of metal I gradually reduce togetherness until it falls apart. If I then increased togetherness (probably hard from nothing, but say it was cracked) it would come back together.
My caution is that we need to get limits with how these properties work. There can be some overlap, of course, but I don't want the property of Cohesion to do the same thing as the property of Animation. I think the ability to set a different 'focal point' around which an object can coalesce or cohere may cause motion, but it will likely be slower than Fire's Animation--and it should. Water doesn't want to be in motion, necessarily. It desires the stillness of earth.
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« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2012, 04:48:27 AM »

My caution is that we need to get limits with how these properties work. There can be some overlap, of course, but I don't want the property of Cohesion to do the same thing as the property of Animation. I think the ability to set a different 'focal point' around which an object can coalesce or cohere may cause motion, but it will likely be slower than Fire's Animation--and it should. Water doesn't want to be in motion, necessarily. It desires the stillness of earth.
So you basically have to trick it, right?  :P
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