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Author Topic: Remusian Numeral System  (Read 7479 times)
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« on: 02 February 2009, 12:28:50 »

Overview:

The Remusians, and to a lesser extent, the Ice Tribes, have a rudimentary numeral system.  Unlike Santharian numerals, the Remusian system is not based on ten, but on 15, with one more for zero.  This is based on the Ice Tribe pantheon of 15 gods, and includes Afrasnyr, the god who pulled himself apart to create the other gods, leaving nothing of himself; zero.

Numbers
0   Afra
1   Ert
2   Phob
3   Nech
4   Bren
5   Aster
6   Rea
7   Chel
8   Parg
9   Wea
10  Peiero
11  Het
12  Asend
13  Alesh
14  Zund
15  Nect

Usage:

The Remusian’s have a 15 numeral based system, with a zero number as well.  The first set of numbers, correctly would be afra-ert, afra-zund, etc, but most people simply go by the suffix, ert, zund, alesh, etc.  The numeral following afra-parg would then be ert-ert, ert-zund, etc, up to parg-parg.  The next numeral would then be ert-afra-afra, ert-afra-ert, etc.  At higher numbers, this does get cumbersome, though the Remusians seldom have need for higher range numbers.  Remusian arithmatic is limited to simple addition and subtraction.  They do not possess the abstract mentality to go further in advanced mathamatics.


« Last Edit: 07 June 2010, 11:04:53 by Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin » Logged

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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #1 on: 02 February 2009, 12:29:56 »

A numeral system for the Remusians.  Comments?  Hoping its foreign enough for the Santh system.
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Rookie Brownbark
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« Reply #2 on: 02 February 2009, 18:01:01 »

I like it!   :D  You just say the digits right?  Although first you have to transpose it into 15s. So if I wanted to say 398...then I divide it by 15?

398/15 = 26.53333333

Then you have to find out the remainder so 398 - (26 x 15) = 398 - 390 = 8

So...erm, if there were 26 tens in our system, I'd write it as 260, so

Blargh, don't think that was working.  Need to use the base-parg system now I think....

26 = parg-bren (15-11)

so 398 is parg-bren-asend (15-11-8) ???

Not sure that's right......

Although...do they always write the numbers out like this, or do they have their own symbols?
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #3 on: 02 February 2009, 18:04:55 »

You know, they must be pretty advanced mathematically if they have already invented the zero
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« Reply #4 on: 02 February 2009, 18:07:29 »

Hmmm, surely if us compediumists can write "10" or "300" etc, then the zero is already invented?  It may not be that accurate for medieval times, but we do have it!
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #5 on: 02 February 2009, 18:13:56 »

Depends on what sort "number"/symbol you use to depict 10, Rookie! ;) Think of Roman numerals: X, XX etc

Also "the zero" in mathematics usually refers not to the zeros we put to the right of other numbers but the notion of nothingness as a number. If you think about it, it is pretty complex theoretical stuff to say 0 times a number swallows up a number and a number divided by 0 is undefined. :) But anyway, I am being unduly pedantic!
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« Reply #6 on: 02 February 2009, 18:20:31 »

But we don't use roman numerals here, although I've just realised that we don't really use digits for anything over ten either....

I don't think you are being too pedantic though because someone asked me last week some time if the Brownies really should have a zero.  Would it be possible to have a symbol for nothing numerically whilst not actually doing the complicated maths?  I really don't know.
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #7 on: 02 February 2009, 20:47:29 »

Altario, I don't know, if this is not too advanced for the icetribes, even the Remusians. Could you construct a reason, why they have 15 as a base? Do you really need the zero?

I have to look it up, for I don't know, why in former time there was a system based on six in the medieval Europe (elsewhere?)  - a dozen etc..
The ten is said to come from the number of fingers we have. 20 would be an alternative, if you take your toes as well, but 15?

Sytems based on numbers like 3, 7, 11 as a base (the name escapes me right now) are special as well.

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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #8 on: 02 February 2009, 21:05:46 »

15 gods (the names are a hint) as well as Afrasnyr, the chaos god who pulled himself apart to create the 15 gods.  That is why I went with 15.  Now, really the concept of Zero is not that new a concept, except with western civilization based off of greco-roman thinking.  The Mayans had the concept in the 8th century, and in India, even earlier in the 6th century.  They were the ones who passed it along to the arabs, who brought it into western thought.

So, this being the case, it can be assumed that Santh then is based on medieval europe, with the zero question more in line with the middle ages, but outside of this, any number of variations could exist.  Having the Remusians know of Zero, I might argue does not make them advanced, just lucky, as they have not built upon any of these concepts as far as geometry, calculus, or triginometry goes.  They simply know that the abscence of something can be referrred to by a name, afra, that would let others know that there is less than ert.  They would not know of decimal points.

And yes, Rook, tryng to convert numbers would be very difficult, methinks.  As for symbols, I am still thinking on that.  They will be based on the particular gods realm of dominance, such as aster being a crudely drawn lightning bolt, for the god Asterlin, the god of lightning.

As well, Talia, the Babylonians had a base system of 60.  They did this without the use of zero.  Not sure how they managed that. huh
« Last Edit: 02 February 2009, 21:28:00 by Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin » Logged

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #9 on: 02 February 2009, 21:32:04 »

Convinced, Alt, just one question remains - why do hey have 15 gods ? ;)
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #10 on: 02 February 2009, 21:35:10 »

 :P
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« Reply #11 on: 02 February 2009, 22:32:39 »

I think we had a base system of 12 - something to do with the zodiac.

And yes!  Babylon's base-60 system is where we get the 360 degrees in a circle from!

All quite fascinating really.
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Shabakuk Zeborius Anfang
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« Reply #12 on: 03 February 2009, 03:27:56 »

Interesting idea, this! The level of detail to which you guys develop this world, and the interesting questions that come up along the way, never cease to amaze me!

Personally, I don't think the zero in itself is too advanced, as long as it's used as a placeholder only (e.g. in ert-afra-ert=257) (I think!), and not within mathematical operations such as Coren has described. In India, too, the zero was a placeholder first, before it became a number in its own right. But it's true the Remusians would have immense potential for mathematical advancement, especially as they associate the zero with their highest god.

The Remusian numeral system would, I think, be called "base 16" (as 16 here is the first number that has two digits: ert-afra).

If I may throw in an idea: you could derive a numeral system with base 16 from a down-to-earth source: you could count 15 knuckles on the fingers of one hand. Say, you take the left hand. Count three knuckles on each of the four fingers, plus two knuckles on your thumb, plus the root of the thumb (or, alternatively, the tip of the thumb). This counts the numbers 1-15. Imagine, each knuckle could have its own god!

Ert-afra (16), then, could be counted by stretching out the thumb of your right hand. Zund-afra (32) would be the stretched-out index finger of your right hand. And so forth up to the pinky. In this way, you could easily count, on your two hands, up to wea-afra (80=5x16). Would that be any good?

I think one theory of the origin of the Babylonian 60-system was actually that the Babylonians counted 5 times 12 with their two hands: 12 knuckles on the four fingers of one hand (excluding the thumb, in this case), with the "dozens" counted on the five fingers on the other hand. There is an exhibition on Babylon in London at the moment, to which I'll go in a few weeks, so maybe I'll find out more then.
« Last Edit: 03 February 2009, 03:41:51 by Shabakuk Zeborius Anfang » Logged

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #13 on: 03 February 2009, 04:32:18 »

Yep, it would be Base16. I like the knuckle-based idea!

"Imagine, each knuckle could have its own god!" That would be one powerful punch! ;)
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« Reply #14 on: 03 February 2009, 05:24:51 »

And using knuckles would make it so easy to teach the gods to kids. Perhaps Remusian have a rhyme or two to help them learn (like "This little piggy")? ;)
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