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Author Topic: Ava'reollár  (Read 11371 times)
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« on: 31 December 2009, 15:44:13 »

::Rayne wanders into the thread carrying an empty box. She sets it on the ground, adjusts it so that its placement is JUST right. While it is an old box, one with a picture of a bar of soap on the side, it remains sturdy enough to carry her elven weight. Here she steps upon it::

It’s been a while since I’ve done RP board stuff, but I was recently reminded of a problem that seems to continue to plague the boards: the representation of elves. Over the years, I think we’ve gotten better, but I still find RP and Dev member alike lamenting the portrayal of elves as “humans with pointy ears.”

But is it really the fault of those young Santharians who stumble upon the site? Are we developers truly blameless for the representation of elves RP side? NO! ::gesticulates so energetically she nearly falls off her box.:: I have glanced across the entries, seen the way that elves are portrayed, particularly housing. One entry after another had them living as the humans do--in houses (both on the ground and in trees) that carried too much semblance to human houses, disconnected from the natural world.

As a side-project, I would like to attempt to make elves and little more elven. This entry hopes to be the start of elf-i-fying elven kind!

This entry makes a lot of big assumptions about elven life and belief. Artimidor, please come help! I need you. heart


Categorization:
Rayne’s Super-Cool Plant of Awesomeness (Trees, Deciduous)

Overview:
Ava’reollár (Avá’s gift) trees are notably the largest trees on Caelereth, growing on almost every known continent, though exclusively in elven forests. At an average of 260 peds tall and 65 peds in diameter, these trees shadow even the tallest towers men can build. Coupled with their amazing size are their sizable life-spans, which can exceed 10,000 years and in fact many people claim these trees are immortal. The enormous size and lifespan of these trees, along with their unusual internal structure, makes them the perfect homes for elves; indeed, many elves believe these trees gifts from Avá.

Description:
Growing deep in elven forests, Ava’reollár trees are the largest trees growing in Caelereth, and they tower above all known man-made structures. While they average 260 peds, they can reach as high as 300 peds, and at their base, they can be around 75 peds around. The result of these dimensions is a relatively squat-looking tree, with the base being approximately a quarter of the height. This ratio gives the tree the shape to withstand the high winds of the upper sky, and makes the tree sturdy in even the most violent weather. The tree’s unusual figure also helps support it, as the interior of the tree is hollow. As the tree grows, the processes required for its survival take place in the outer rings of its trunk and branches, and the inside rots away. This enables elves to enter the inside of the tree, able to stand and move within it with relative ease, especially when the tree reaches maturity.

The leaves are roughly shaped like the body of a fish, with a wide middle and the sides tapering to points (one of which connects the leaf to the branch). These leaves are a deep, verdurous green, and have smooth sides. The Ava’reollár tree, despite its enormous size, produces average-sized leaves, usually about the length of a human finger; however, what the leaves lack in size they make up for in quantity, as the tree produces thousands of these comparatively small leaves. This often gives the tree’s foliage a feathery look from a distance. Leaves are only shed once every four to eight years. The reason for this continues to puzzle scholars. Some speculate that the energy produced by the elves who occupy the tree negates the need to shed them as often. Others theorize that the tree gains so many nutrients from its deep and expansive root system that it can maintain the leaves for longer. While each leaf remains on the tree for four to eight years, the leaves are not on the same cycle: each year, only about one sixth of the leaves will fall. In fall, then, only a fraction of the leaves will turn; when they do, they transition from deep green to golden yellow and finally to a soft crimson.

Like the leaves, the flowers of the tree are small despite the tree’s size, growing no bigger than an elven woman’s pinky finger. In contrast to the large, imposing structure of the tree, the six-petalled blossoms appear soft and delicate; however, they are strong and resilient enough to withstand the spring storms and the high winds of the upper boughs. These flowers, with their little rounded petals, bloom in early to mid spring, depending on the location (southern Ava’reollár trees bloom earlier, on average, than northern ones), and descend from the tree between late spring and early summer. The trees are a striking sight at this time, when thousands of tiny petals drift from the branches in soft clouds. The color of these petals differs from tree to tree—or, more often, from forest to forest—and may change over time. The year following the rape of the Avaránn Aiá’merán, the trees produced no flowers, but in the year following, the Bolder Forest Ava’reollár trees, which had always produced white blossoms, suddenly began producing blood-red ones. In the years following, the color has grown lighter, and now appears as light pink. In the Quallian of the Ylfferhim produced pale yellow blossoms, while the Shaded Wood of the Injerín produces a bright gold bloom. It is rumoured that dark elven Ava’reollár trees produce dark purple or even black blossoms.

Following the flowers’ loss of petals, the remaining bulb-like structures darken to a grayish brown, and sprout little netted wings that unfurl to catch the wind. Although each seed, no bigger than a fingerjoint, is hard, its little wings allow it to drift down through the air slowly to avoid hitting any creature on descent.

The branches of the Ava’reollár tree, which can grow nearly 30 peds thick, sprout from the trunk of the tree relatively close to the ground, further accentuating the squat appearance. The horizontal branching quality of the tree expands the space needed for the tree to grow, which can exceed 100peds around. Like the trunk, boughs are generally hollow. The branches and the tree’s trunk range in color from a gray-brown to a reddish brown, and generally light in color as the branches grow thinner.

Unlike many other trees that may choke each other if grown too close together, the Ava’reollár tree easily shares space with other Ava’reollár trees, competing for neither space nor sunlight. The reason for this strange behaviour is not entirely known, but the current and most prominent theory says that when a younger Ava’reollár tree enters the space of an older Ava’reollár tree, or if two are grown close together, the two trees share nutrients by interweaving and merging their root systems and sometimes even their surface structures. It is not unheard of for Ava’reollár trees to grow into one another such that, practically speaking, they become the same tree. The most striking example is a Ava’reollár tree in the Quallian, formed when two Ava’reollár trees not only merged, but wrapped around one another as though in embrace.

Territory:
The Ava’reollár tree grows in most elven forests throughout Caelereth. There are yet no accounts of this tree growing in forests where no elves reside. Most assume that the deep connection between the Ava’reollár tree and the elves allows the tree to flourish.

Usages:
The most apparent use for the Ava’reollár tree, and indeed the purpose of its cultivation, is housing. Save for elves who do not live in forests, like the nomadic Melad’rhim or the Cyhallrhim who construct abodes from ice, most all elves live in Ava’reollár trees, though they may decorate and utilize them in different ways. While the tree in itself provides all that is necessary for shelter, many elves combine the tree with stone and rock to construct half-living homes. Some Ava’reollár trees are made to grow around archways, while others may be interwoven with palace-like structures. While some trees are connected through rope-bridges, others are connected by bridges of stone. Although the trees are extremely old, they are always malleable to the expert tree-keeper, who understands the limits of the tree.

Because of their enormous size, one tree can house a large number of individuals, though generally one community will require at least three or four trees to house their population (others may be required for alternate purposes). The expansive space within the trunk generally serves as a community area, though use varies from tribe to tribe, culture to culture. Most tribes utilize the branches as living space, though, often where many families will live together. The elves view their trees as a blessing, a gift from Avá, and are therefore very connected to it. It represents not only a home, but a connection to both the realized and unrealized Dream.

The seeds of the Ava’reollár tree are often used in potions and dishes. Many elves believe that these seeds hold the power and energy of a reality that cannot be realized. In utilizing these seeds for potions and dishes, elves feel as though they have helped recycled the energy: although the potential of becoming a tree was not realized, another potential (as an ingredient for a potion, an addition to a meal, part of a tea, etc.) is. The elven saying, “As one dream is lost, another is realized” (roughly equivalent to “When one door closes another opens”) is generally assumed to originate from use of Ava’reollár seeds. Of course, the saying has branched into other situations.

While the wood of the Ava’reollár tree may be suitable for building, it has, to date, never been used in construction. Just as the flesh houses the soul, so the tree houses the community. Just as bodies are burned, so is the tree. Only a few records in elven history note the death of an Ava’reollár tree—the most recent being the death of the Goltherrhim trees when the tribe left their forests and joined the Sanhorrhim. In all known cases, the tree was burned in its entirety. In the case of the Goltherrhim, the ashes were carried to Vontron in order to fertilize the earth and aid in the growth of another tree.

Reproduction:
While each Ava’reollár tree produces hundred or thousands of seeds each year, almost none of these seeds reach maturity. Only with great care will an Ava’reollár tree grow, and (as far as anyone knows) they only grow under the guidance of an elf with the correct sensitivity for the task. Only elves with a deep understanding and feeling for the life energy of these trees are able to properly care for them and influence their growth. While elves of such sensitivities have various names, most elven tribes refer to them as tree-keepers (phéran’valturaeyía), though some tribes have their own names for them; for example, the Ylfferhim refer to them as phéran’telaeyía, or tree-singers. Records dating back to Fá'áv'cál'âr speak of a group of elves chosen to care for the trees. Almost like the human structure of a guild or religious sect, these elves were spoken of as quérin’caoía, or leaf children. It is said their spirits were intimately tied to the trees, that they could speak to the trees and, in turn, hear of the voice of the Ava’reollár tree. This sect is not mentioned following the fall of Fá'áv'cál'âr and more than likely fell apart as elves scattered across the Disk.

It’s pertinent to note that, while an Ava’reollár tree requires a tree-keeper to care for it, it is only through the energy and life force of the entirety community that a Ava’reollár tree can grow.

The Ava’reollár tree initially grows rather quickly, reaching a height of 10 peds in its first year. As it grows larger, its growth slows, running into other surrounding trees. The tree never chokes out other mature, living trees, but instead will wait patiently for its neighbors to exhaust their lifespan and pass away before it grows out to occupy their plot of ground and sunlight. Because of this, a tree can take many hundreds or years to grow to full maturity. From the time it is two years old, an Ava’reollár tree will produce flowers and seeds, but like the adults, these seeds rarely reach fruition. Generally trees can begin to be used as shelter a little after one hundred years, though the growth of each Ava’reollár tree is different, and depends significantly on the surrounding vegetation.

These trees live over ten thousand years, and most consider the tree to be immortal. If a community of elves ever leaves their forest, abandoning their Ava’reollár tree, it is said the tree will die, as the tree cannot exist without the life energy of elven inhabitance to support it. To date, the oldest tree (whose “birth” is believed to date to the beginning of the Dream) grows in Bolder Forest of the Aellenrhim. While, according to myth, it is not necessarily the first Ava’reollár tree, it is the oldest surviving today.

Myth/Lore:
The elves view these trees as a gift from Avá, and in fact their name means “Avá’s gift.” In the beginning of the Dream, following the creation of the elves, it is said Avá created the Ava’reollár tree to house her children, providing a home that not only gave them shelter from the storm and protection from creatures of shadow, but also served as a close link to the natural world. The concept of the Ava’reollár as a connection reflects in the nature of the tree: as far as anyone knows, it does not grow without elven influence, and for elven magi the structure is easy to manipulate. Through the guidance of tree-keepers (phéran’valturaeyía, special elves chosen for the task of caring for them, these trees bend and grow in ways convenient for the elves’ needs. Because the tree conforms in this way, it is considered part of the community: just as the flesh is the vessel for the soul of the individual, so the tree is the vessel for the soul of the community. Just as a weak body may reflect a weak heart, so a weak Ava’reollár tree may reflect a weak community. And just as the body must be nourished and cared for, so must the tree.

The close relationship between a community and their tree has led scholars to draw relationships between the varying parts of the tree to parts of the community: the trunk represents the spiritual condition of the community, while the flowers represent the emotional condition of the community, etc. Most of these are conjectures made by primarily human scholars, and are not taken very seriously.

The origin and purpose of the tree as keeping the elves connected to the natural world runs deeper in the elven belief. Not only is the tree a connection to the natural world as humans generally perceive it (trees, plants, animals), but a connection to the natural world as interconnected and unified whole. In elven belief, the roots of these trees, which burrow deep into the earth, are all interconnected: the roots of the Ava’reollár housing the Aellenrhim tribe are not only connected among the various Aellenrhim settlements, but are also connected to the Ylfferhim settlements, to the Ahrhim, and even to the Diorye’oleal and Injerín. The trees therefore not only represent a connection to nature in the human sense, but also to other elven kind, and represent the interconnectedness of the entire disk.

For some, the tree itself is the realization of the reality of the Dream. Life, for the elves, is filled with dreams, with choices and decisions. In order to choose one path, other paths must be abandoned. In pursuing one dream, others will never come to fruition. This quality of elven reality is manifested in the thousands of seeds dropped each year by each Ava’reollár tree. Like the possibilities of life, these seeds are numerous, but like life’s possibilities, few actually reach fruition, becoming mature Ava’reollár trees. These seeds are often used in potions and recipes, and each seed is believed to hold the energy and possibility of alternate realizations of reality, of the Dream.

Elves commonly give their Ava’reollár trees names. The oldest surviving tree, growing in Bolder Forest, is called Ávash’zoúm (Wind Home). Because of its enormous height, some more obscure records refer to this tree as the Wind Tower. When myth speaks of the fall of the Wind Tower being a precursor to the Armageddon, some scholars believe that the prophesy does not in fact refer to the Wind Tower of Ximax Academy, but rather the Ava’reollár tree of the Aellenrhim.

There are a great many songs and poems for the tree, and many that make mention of it. Below is a song sung amongst many of the elves in Santharia:

Poem (Styrásh)
Avá valanát. Styráns artanhé.
Quaellát sá daín'ypherothím sá injèrá.
Nafreát sóh cór'melorían sá silarná.
Bejonát foár Valanáj sá styrá.

Zeiát á sáh echaría só avásh.
Chuhát á sáh aseiaía sá alýr.
Dalanté só thyronó sóh caeyín.
Fehlyanté iuaís cár'amnían sáh phyría.

Eaanté uím sóh leyín Ava'reollarís.
Elianté uím sóh merinín Ava'reollarís.
Valturát uím sá ó'chón'cár Ava'reollarís.
Avá valanát. Styráns artanhé.

Translation:
Avá dreams. Blessed are we.
The sun brightens the day(time) sky
The moon dims the night(time) shadows
Nature blooms in the Dream.

The wind breathes through the grasses
The light rain falls through the heavens
The mountains rise from the sea
The tall forests nourish our souls

The branches of the Ava’reollár protect us.
The flowers of the Ava’reollár heal us.
The spirit of the Ava’reollár keeps us.
Avá dreams. Blessed are we.


Problems/Questions:
1. iuí’ím = where do the accents/apostrophes go?

2. cór’melórím = do I remove the accent from the ó?

3. Do all the articles/particles need accents?

4. iuí cár’ámnísiám = meant to be “our souls” (direct object); not sure how to conjugate, or where accents should go, or how I resolve the genitive and accusative declinations.  undecided Should it be iuí'ís cár’ámniám? How to I resolve the accents?

5. echàr (grass) is listed as masculine, but the ending is feminine. I’ve gone with a feminine declination. Where do the stresses go in echáríam?

6. aseià (heaven) is listed as a masculine, but the ending is feminine. I’ve gone with a feminine declination. Where do the stresses go in aseiáíam?

7. I think Ava always comes in the beginning of a sentence (an exception to the rule). Can anyone back me up?
« Last Edit: 01 February 2010, 08:36:12 by Rayne (Alýr) » Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Falethas Whisperwind
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« Reply #1 on: 19 January 2010, 06:16:29 »

One thing I noticed: you've gotta fix the stress in "Avá'reollár." Remember that when two elvish words are compounded, the stress falls on the initial and final syllables of the new word. So rather than Avá'reollár (/a.'va.re.ɔl.'lar/), we should have Áva'reollár (/'a.va.re.ɔl.'lar/). I'd say you could safely just write this as Ava'reollár if you don't want to take the time to set the accent over the "A."

Anyways. Here's how I'd translate the poem:

"Avá dreams; blessed are we."
Avá valanát; styráns artanhé.
[Avá dream-3sg; be-we bless-p.p.]

"The sun brightens the day-sky."
Quaellát sá daín'ypherothím sá injèrá.
[brighten-3sg the day-sky-acc. the sun.]

"The moon dims the night-shadows"
Nafreát sóh cór'melorían sá silarná.
[dim-3sg the-pl. night-shadow-pl.acc. the moon.]

"Nature blooms in the Dream."
Bejonát (in)* Valanáj sá styrá.
[blossom-3sg (in) Dream the nature.]

*Seems like we need a word for "in."

"The wind breathes through the grasses."
Zeiát á sáh echaría só avásh.
[breathe-3sg through the-pl. grass-pl. the wind.]

"The light rain falls through the heavens."
Chuhát á sáh aseiaía sá alýr.
[fall-3sg through the-pl. heaven-pl. the light-rain.]

"The mountains rise from the sea."
Dalanté sá thyronó sáh caeyín.
[rise-they the sea-abl. the-pl. mountain-pl.]

"The tall forests nourish our souls."
Fehlyanté (our)* cár'amnían sáh phyría.
[nourish-they (our) soul-pl.acc. the-pl. tall-forest-pl.]

*We need a word for "our." Actually, we need to flesh out elvish pronouns as a whole...constructions like iuaís ("we"-genitive) and iuaím ("we"-accusative, cf. next line) for things as simple as "our" and "us" are absurd and impractical. And clunky, haha.

"The branches of the Ava'reollár protect us."
Eaanté (us) sóh leyín* Ava'reollarís.
[protect-they (us) the-pl. branch-pl. Ava'reollár-gen.]

*I really like léy for "branch." Nicely done. :)

"The flowers of the Ava'reollár heal us."
Elianté (us) sóh merinín Ava'reollarís.
[heal-they (us) the-pl. flower-pl. Ava'reollár-gen.]

"The spirit of the Ava'reollár keeps us."
Valturát (us) sá ó'chón'cár Ava'reollarís.
[keep-3sg (us) the spirit Ava'reollár-gen.]

"Avá dreams; blessed are we."
Avá valanát; styráns artanhé.
[Avá dream-3sg; be-we bless-p.p.]

Sooo altogether:

Avá valanát; styráns artanhé.
Quaellát sá daín'ypherothím sá injèrá.
Nafreát sóh cór'melorían sá silarná.
Bejonát
(in) Valanáj sá styrá.

Zeiát á sáh echaría só avásh.
Chuhát á sáh aseiaía sá alýr.
Dalanté só thyronó sóh caeyín.

Fehlyanté
(our) cár'amnían sáh phyría.

Eaanté (us) sóh leyín Ava'reollarís.
Elianté
(us) sóh merinín Ava'reollarís.
Valturát
(us) sá ó'chón'cár Ava'reollarís.
Avá valanát; styráns artanhé.


As to your questions:

(1) Regarding iuí'ím: the word would come out as iuím, but we need to revamp Styrásh pronouns, as I said above.

(2) Yes. Whenever an inflection is added to a noun, the accent falls from the last syllable of the original word. So melórmelorím, ylfferéthylfferethá, etc.; just keep in mind that the accent is nothing more than a stress marker.

(3) They don't technically need them. Like I said, the accent is nothing more than a stress marker. In single-syllable words — most Styrásh articles/particles, and even some nouns — the stress is obvious, so the accent isn't really necessary (which is why I write sa for , ley for léy, and so on).

(4) You can only conjugate verbs; you decline nouns. The declension process in that one is pretty nasty, complicated further because (I repeat, mwaha!) elven pronouns are currently tragic. I think I managed to sort it out in my translation; don't hesitate to ask if I'm still not making any sense...which is very likely. *facepalm*

(5)/(6) If the ending of the noun is feminine, I go with the feminine declension regardless of what gender Art lists in the dictionaries. Either he made some mistakes putting them in, or he intends for there to be a lot of irregular (read: gender-confused) Styrásh nouns. And the stress almost always goes in the inflectional ending, because that typically becomes the last syllable of the word.

(7) Hadn't ever heard that before, but it fits in nicely with the elvish worldview. I like it!
« Last Edit: 22 January 2010, 10:15:58 by Falethas Whisperwind » Logged

Epthaeranté á sáh pheranía sáh alyría; ahmantát naithím sá sae'llán styaeyías.
"The rain whispers down through the trees; elvish music will rise in answer."
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« Reply #2 on: 19 January 2010, 06:51:07 »

Wow! This is wonderful! Thank you so much, Fel!

I'm tempted to maintain the stresses in Avá'reollár (A - vá - reo - llár) because I love iambs! Maybe Arti will let me break the rule. >.>'

styráns artanhé : How does this syntax work? Is it lit. "being blessed" or "to be blessing"? Perhaps I'm confused at the notion of the present/past participle. How do you know that "we" are the ones being blessed? Is this implied in the structure?

I forgot to list my new words. @_@ I'm so sorry! I meant "yó" to work as the preposition "in."

so thyronó : I've always had trouble with this: does the vocative/ablative form always imply "from" or "coming from" or "arising from"? [Perhaps you also know why some languages have a declination for this instead of a preposition? I would be curious.]

iuaís & iuaím: I love these for "our" and "we" (accus.)! Would "my" and "me" (accus) be iuís & iuím? I wonder if people would get confused because of how much they resemble the nominative iuí.

Quote
I really like ley for "branch." Nicely done.
I wanted something VERY short and VERY simple. Simple term, simple word. Unfortunately, there aren't too many of these in styrash. @_@

Thank you so much for going through this. Yay for fewer accents! I really like the way you've cleaned them all up. Really, attempting to read a line of spondees is basically impossible. -_-' Really, articles and pronouns shouldn't be listed as accented!

I think an entry on styrash pronouns would be brilliant. Perhaps it might be a nice, short entry for you, Fel!  heart It would also be terribly useful.

Thank you, again, Fel. I will begin integrating the changes into the original ASAP. I'm so glad to have a styrash-checker on the boards now! You are wonderful.
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #3 on: 22 January 2010, 10:12:25 »

I'm glad I could help!

Quote
I'm tempted to maintain the stresses in Avá'reollár (A - vá - reo - llár) because I love iambs! Maybe Arti will let me break the rule. >.>'

Art might, but I don't think the elves would. undecided They'd stress this word just like any other. The only exceptions to stress I can think of are words that are explicitly notated as irregular or loanwords. Although I don't know that the elves would be inclined to borrow bits of "lesser" languages, haha.

Quote
styráns artanhé : How does this syntax work? Is it lit. "being blessed" or "to be blessing"? Perhaps I'm confused at the notion of the present/past participle. How do you know that "we" are the ones being blessed? Is this implied in the structure?

Nope, it literally means "we are blessed." The "we" is expressed by the suffix -áns appended to the verb stem styr- "be." Styr-áns > "be-we" > "we are." Artanhé is the past participle (perhaps passive participle would be a better term here; the action of the verb is being received rather than carried out) of artán "to bless," and translates to "blessed." So styr-áns art-anhé > "be-we bless-ed" > "we are blessed." Or "blessed are we," in this case.

Quote
so thyronó : I've always had trouble with this: does the vocative/ablative form always imply "from" or "coming from" or "arising from"? [Perhaps you also know why some languages have a declination for this instead of a preposition? I would be curious.]

The ablative case carries out the functions you outlined. The vocative case is used when the noun in question is being directly addressed, e.g. "Rayne" in "Why do you tolerate Falethas's constant annoyance, Rayne?" I've always questioned why Art combined the two cases into one when they're sooo very different. As to your second question: I don't really know why some languages convey prepositional relations via declension rather than separate particle. That's a question you might want to ask Anwulf; he's FAR more knowledgeable than I in this whole area.

Quote
Yay for fewer accents! I really like the way you've cleaned them all up. Really, attempting to read a line of spondees is basically impossible. -_-' Really, articles and pronouns shouldn't be listed as accented!

I mainly did that for the sake of time and ease of perusal. If it's an important and reverent poem, I'd suggest to keep all the stress marks. I'd imagine the elves would only drop the accent in documents where formal writing wasn't demanded. Kind of like the difference between a legal contract and a letter to a friend: you wouldn't toss around contractions and abbreviations in the former, haha. I'll update my post with the formal orthography.

Quote
I think an entry on styrash pronouns would be brilliant. Perhaps it might be a nice, short entry for you, Fel! heart It would also be terribly useful.

I think I might get around to it eventually...hehe :)
« Last Edit: 22 January 2010, 10:20:50 by Falethas Whisperwind » Logged

Epthaeranté á sáh pheranía sáh alyría; ahmantát naithím sá sae'llán styaeyías.
"The rain whispers down through the trees; elvish music will rise in answer."
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« Reply #4 on: 22 January 2010, 12:54:18 »

Quote
Art might, but I don't think the elves would.  They'd stress this word just like any other.
Is it possible that they might make an exception for things like poetry?  Like how Mandarin pretty much ignores its tones in singing. 
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« Reply #5 on: 24 January 2010, 02:26:20 »

They might make the exception when actually singing the hymn, but when writing it down, they'd notate the stress normally, I'd say. I confess I don't know how this works in other languages, but in English, there's no denotation of irregular stress in song lyrics and poems.
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Epthaeranté á sáh pheranía sáh alyría; ahmantát naithím sá sae'llán styaeyías.
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« Reply #6 on: 24 January 2010, 03:14:31 »

I don't know, though. Avá seems to generally be the exception to most rules. I know, for example, that Avá proceeds verbs even though it's a noun. Perhaps there might be an except, too, with accents--that She always maintains Her accents?

I feel as though there are simply too many accents. Is there any rule we could make for the use of accents? From experience, it's often difficult to actually pronounce more than two stresses in a row.

We might need Artimidor to help with this. >.<


New Words List (for reference)
yó = in
iuaís = our
iuaím = us
léy = branch
« Last Edit: 24 January 2010, 05:07:29 by Rayne Avalotus » Logged

"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #7 on: 24 January 2010, 03:39:02 »

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I don't know, though. Avá seems to generally be the exception to most rules. I know, for example, that Avá proceeds verbs even though it's a noun. Perhaps there might be an except, too, with accents--that She always maintains Her accents?

The whole concept doesn't ring true philologically, though. The elves would still take the sounds [a.va] to mean the name of their Goddess, regardless of how they're emphasized. The pattern of stress you're advocating would sound odd to their ears. Syntactical exceptions, like the supremacy of Her name in elvish word order, make far more sense.

Quote
I feel as though there are simply too many accents. Is there any rule we could make for the use of accents? From experience, it's often difficult to actually pronounce more than two stresses in a row.

I don't understand what you mean here, Rayne. The accents are nothing more than stress markers, that's it. We can apply the same principle to a sentence of English: "Thé lánguage óf thé élves ís ás thé whíspering óf thé wínd." They just show where the emphasis in any given word lies. Every word in every language (real or fictional) has stress somewhere. It doesn't mean that the accented syllable needs to be pronounced emphatically or in a poetically exaggerated manner. Styrásh stress patterns are only as outlandish or impossible as one makes them out to be; they're remarkably similar to French, actually, if that helps at all. Haha. :)

Also, could you explain what you mean by "two stresses in a row"? There aren't any occurrences of that in Styrásh, as far as I know.

Quote
iuaís = us
iuaím = our

The definitions for these are switched, haha. But hold off on integrating them at all for now; they're specially inflected and not very practical. You can leave them in the poem so that there aren't any blanks, and they can (presumably?) be changed later. I'll post back over here with the appropriate forms once Styrásh pronouns are worked out properly. and léy are fine, I'd say.

(EDIT) One thing I just noticed: you said you wanted to keep the name as Avá'reollár to preserve its iambic form (which you gave as "a–vá–reo–llár"). If our definitions of iamb agree on it being one unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable, then Avá'reollár, with its five syllables, can't be perfectly iambic even when improper stress is maintained. Its syllables break down as a–va–re–ol–lar, and is properly stressed on "a" and "lar."
« Last Edit: 24 January 2010, 04:00:29 by Falethas Whisperwind » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: 24 January 2010, 05:19:03 »

Made changes to the list. @_@

Ah--I suppose I pronounced the name different. The more I'm thinking about--the less I'm caring about where the stresses fall. lol

Accents/Stresses: These are often used interchangeably in poetry, so perhaps there is a difference I'm not seeing. Iambic meter is my favorite meter, a typical unstressed-stressed (some say unaccented-accented). If I were to mark the sentence you've provided in terms of the stresses (how I would pronounce them or how I might write them in a poem), they would be as follows: The lánguage of the élves is (á)s the whíspering of the wínd" (could be stressed on other ways depending on pronunciation). In poetry, articles are almost never stressed. Prepositions are stressed based on context (they have a higher chance of being stressed if they're flanked by two unstressed syllables).

This makes me think that perhaps I don't understand the notion of "accents," that accents are different from stress. However, I'm not sure I can see what accents are. My guess would be in the flexibility of stresses vs. accents. Stresses are sometimes always the same for a word (lánguage always has the stress on the beginning). But some words, like many proposition, can change stresses depending on the metrical environment.

Two stressed in a row would be like... "Began walking" (Begán wálking). In this phrase, the stress falls on the end of "began" and the beginning of "walking." The meter is unstressed-stressed-stressed-unstressed.
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #9 on: 24 January 2010, 23:48:20 »

Ah! I think I see now where our misunderstandings are coming from. You’ve been thinking about stress in a strictly poetic sense and I from a linguistic standpoint. We’re awesome. rolleyes

I’ve just been talking about the syllable(s) in each word where emphasis naturally falls – language, whispering, Ava’reollár – for the purposes of placing the marker.

(ASIDE) "Accent," by the way, is just what I’ve been calling the mark (´) above the stressed syllable in a Styrásh word. The language’s name itself is a good example: [sty'raʃ]. By the way, Rayne, can you read the IPA? I just realized that none of these approximations I’ve been giving are helpful if they’ve been incomprehensible, haha.

I haven’t been thinking of meter as much because the hymn is fairly prosaic in both languages. There really isn’t any meter that presents itself in either translation. I imagined the elves singing it with a loose melody leaving room for individual interpretation; the song would be more of an unstructured meditation than a rigidly composed choral piece, you know?



There are some other things in the entry I noticed when I read through it:

I. Ava’reollár
Just make sure to fix the stress when you get the chance. :) Leaving the accent off the initial "A" is probably the most expedient way of doing it while maintaining the proper stress.

II. phera’valturía
You’ll want to make sure that the final "n" of pherán "tree" makes it in there to keep that meaning. We don’t have a word yet for "keeper"; how about valturáey (in the pattern of styáey, del’áey, etc.)? "Tree-keepers" would then be phéran’valturaeyía. OR – and I like this option better, haha – these individuals could just have their own word: valferán, pl. valferanía?

III. phera’teloría
Same thing here as with No. II. We could coin teláey for "singer," giving us phéran’telaeyía for "tree-singers," or go with telferán (pl. telferanía) for their name. Whatever we decide to do with these two items, new vocabulary is always nice, so I’ll post valturáey and teláey in the new vocab thread along with the other words.

III. querin’caoí
"Leaf-children" would come out to be quérin’caoía ( marks the singular dative in Styrásh and isn’t a valid plural form). I’d opt to keep this compounded form rather than craft a new word for the profession; preserves the ethereality of the ancient sect, I think.

IV. Avásh’zoúm
Fix the stress in this one to Ávash’zoúm (or the equally legitimate Avash’zoúm, cf. Áva’reollár = Ava’reollár).

V.
I just found in the dictionaries that Styrásh has foár for "on." It’s common for "on, in, upon" to be expressed by one locative preposition (cf. Spanish en), so I’d suggest to do the same here and expand foár to mean "in" as well. At least until we can work out a locative case for Styrásh...it needs one.
« Last Edit: 25 January 2010, 01:34:34 by Falethas Whisperwind » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: 25 January 2010, 02:27:47 »

Changed all the mistaken styrash words! Thank you, Fel. heart

And yes, I can read IPA. Though I can't understand how you're able to make the symbols. What kind of ancient elven magic is this?  shocked

I'm not sure I understand the difference between emphasis and stress.  undecided

You say:
Quote
"Accent," by the way, is just what I’ve been calling the mark (´) above the stressed syllable in a Styrásh word.
So the accent is the mark and the emphasis is the actual spoken manifestation? It sounds like the difference, from what I can see, is that in linguistics, every word must have an emphasis--the linguist looks at each word individually, while perhaps the poet looks at the words in relation to one another. In poetry, not all words may have emphasis--it depends upon the other emphases in other words within the syntax.

Does this make sense? Or am I still not getting it?
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #11 on: 25 January 2010, 02:45:28 »

I usually use this site if I want to write something in IPA. 

Stress is one of those areas of linguistics I'm really unfamiliar with, but I think there's stress on the level of individual words, and then there's stress on the level of sentences.  The latter is probably what you are working with in poetry. 
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« Reply #12 on: 25 January 2010, 06:30:02 »

Mina! I LOVE you. That site just made my life infinitely easier! I’d been opening word and choosing fonts that are IPA-compatible (Times New Roman, Arial, Tahoma, etc.) and just copy-pasting the symbols from there. If I could give aura, you’d have one from me. :D

Quote
So the accent is the mark and the emphasis is the actual spoken manifestation? It sounds like the difference, from what I can see, is that in linguistics, every word must have an emphasis--the linguist looks at each word individually, while perhaps the poet looks at the words in relation to one another. In poetry, not all words may have emphasis--it depends upon the other emphases in other words within the syntax.

"Accent" and "emphasis" are essentially equivalent. They both refer to the part of the word that is pronounced more dominantly than the other parts. You’re missing my main point, I think: every word has an accent/emphasis/stress somewhere, both in linguistics and in poetry. That’s an irrefutable fact. There’s always a part of the word that’s a little more prominent than the rest. 

Mina’s right about the different types of stress. I’m dealing with the word-level stress, because I’m not analyzing what you’ve written as more than a free-verse poem. Essentially, a short chunk of prose.
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Epthaeranté á sáh pheranía sáh alyría; ahmantát naithím sá sae'llán styaeyías.
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« Reply #13 on: 25 January 2010, 06:56:28 »

Mina! I LOVE you. That site just made my life infinitely easier! I’d been opening word and choosing fonts that are IPA-compatible (Times New Roman, Arial, Tahoma, etc.) and just copy-pasting the symbols from there. If I could give aura, you’d have one from me. :D

I gave Mina an Aura for you.  ;)  Big Grin
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« Reply #14 on: 25 January 2010, 07:23:38 »

Thanks, Madame Shamaness. :)
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Epthaeranté á sáh pheranía sáh alyría; ahmantát naithím sá sae'llán styaeyías.
"The rain whispers down through the trees; elvish music will rise in answer."
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