* 
Welcome Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?


*
gfxgfx Home Forum Help Search Login Register   gfxgfx
gfx gfx
gfx
Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Print
Author Topic: An Antislar Philosophy leading to Magic and Religion  (Read 14716 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2.415


The Remusian


View Profile
« on: 20 April 2010, 14:33:18 »

Hello Folks:

Just want to post a seed of an idea here and see if you all can dump enough fertilizer on it to either kill it or make it grow. :P  Depending on how this evolves will determine the way the Antislar tribe entry will be written.  I need to have a vision of how they see the world, so that I can build a society around it.  All comments are welcomed, especially those in Northern affairs and in the Cosmology forums. :D

1./ Magic

Coorava, (Kohrayva, etc)... some spelling that will be a derivitive of the two elven gods Coor and Ava.  Pronunciation and spelling should show a natural evolution.

Just as Ava has her polar opposite, Coor, so does everything in life; north/south, good/evil, positive/negative etc.  They cannot exist without the other half.  Everything has these elements in it.  There is Ava (Ahva, Ayva, etc) that is called good, calm, etc... while Coor (Kohr, Koor, etc) is evil, chaos, etc.  Women are considered to have more coor, as pointed out by their more chaotic natures, while men are higher in Ava, being more logical and ordered.  (Hey, don't shoot the messenger, folks :P)  This is why men are attracted to women.

With these two principles, magic was created by harnessing the forces.  It is because of Coorava that Lodestone is attracted to iron (magnetism).  Extrapolating from this, Antislar mages (I hate this name for them.  I might go with shamans) were able to deduce that lodestone was higher in Ava, while iron was higher in Coor.  They learned that through deep focusing of their will, they could ramp up the properties of Ava or Coor in almost any object.  In doing so, great buildings could be constructed by manipulating stone and levetating it into place.

I want to keep this a primitive magic, and should not be compared to Ximaxian magic or to Krean magic.  This is why I don't think Mage would apply to the weilders of this magic.  There would be no spells in the way Ounia and Carall spells exist.  Just simple attraction and repulsion abilities.

2./  Religion

They no longer believe in two seperate gods or entities.  They have taken the beliefs of the Elves and bastardized them until they are now unrecognizable.  There is only one entity, Coorava (spelling).

Everything must balance in order for the world to continue.  When Coor has gathered enough of the world, the world will be destroyed in violence.  If Ava gathers too much good in the world, she will wake and the world will blink out of existance.  Either way, it don't look good for us guys down here on the disk.  So, the Antislar feel it is in their best interest to keep balance.  In their view, the world has become too full of good.  There are far too few wars and chaos.  Elves and dwarves are too ordered, with too much Ava in their blood, as are hobbits, gnomes and Brownies.  Orcs are pure Coor, while man is like an ocean and the tides are constantly in flux.  Of course, these are generalities and exceptions can be found, Coor'hem elves, Darkling Brownies, etc.  

In a true state, Ava will rise to the surface.  It is naturally the stronger pull.  But, Coor is the more volitile essense, and when it comes forth, the Antislar feel it is their duty to help it even the scales, if only temporarily.  The last time this happened was during SW III, when the Antislar joined the Darkfriends.

The Antislar believe that it is better for Coor to destroy the world, than for Ava to wake.  For if Coor detroys the world, Ava's dream will continue and the world will be reborn, anew.  If, however, Ava were to awaken and the dream were to end, there would be no rebirth, for even a god cannot have the same dream over again.

Life begets death; death begets life. It is a circle.  (Cue the Lion King theme)  In order to ensure life for their people, Antislar priests (and I do wish to use this name, because it has been used to describe servants of god of every culture.  I know that Egyptian priests venerated Ra, Isis, etc, and Mayan priests held creremonies in Copan, Aztec priests cut out the hearts id sacrificial victims, so the term should not simply be disregarded as a Judeo-Christian title) take the life of sacrificial victims.  If possible, enemy combatants are used.  If none are available, members of their own community are used.  This is seen as a mark of honour to be chosen, and victims are revered right up to the point of death.  Sacrifices are held in specially prepared rooms, where glyphs are carved into the floor and the victim ihas their throat cut.  The spray of the blood, and its pattern on the carved floor give the priests portents into the future and the mood of the god.  Depending on the severety of a bad omen, harsh consequenses might be required.

Death is not the end for the Antislar.  They believe that there are only a certain amount of people in the world.  Every birth means that somewhere a person has died at that exact moment.  In rare cases, one can observe this transference of life.  There will be a story told of a King who died at the exact moment his daughter was giving birth to a son.  The child was given the King's name and grew up knowing certain facts of his grandfathers life that proved this theory true.  It also is the basis for the Ilshanova and the Escadilla. (Which I need to finish, but having these facts cemented down will aide in) This gives the Antislar another reason to go to war with the Remusians so often.  It makes sense that for every Remusian killed, a new Antislar will be born.

As a people, they all believe in these tenants.  Itr also makes them a very accepting people, as all life is the same balance of Coor and Ava.  Thus, they treat orcs with no bias, trade with the Ice Elves of northern Iol.  Only the Remusians do they have an almost fervant hatred for, as the two peoples have been warring for 1300 hundred years.  This, and the Remusians are so rigid and ordered (from a Antislar perspective) that they are considered the zenith of Ava pursuasion.
« Last Edit: 20 April 2010, 14:37:34 by Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin » Logged

"Lather...Rinse...Repeat"   Why has God made my life so complicated?

This is what I'm working on
Azhira Styralias
Moderator
****

Gained Aura: 132
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.774


Mód’dél’áey


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: 21 April 2010, 08:38:02 »

The only issue I see so far from a skim reading (more thorough later...) is that Coor and Ava are not worshiped by elves in the sense you are thinking. First, Ava is not worshiped at all. She is not considered a deity and has no clerics. She does not grant divine magic or miracles. Essentially, she is considered a non-entity, but is only spoken of in myths. She is a dream and light. She is difficult to explain...Arti does a better job of it than I do.

Coor is technically revered as a chaos and darkness. He is the dark side of the world. He has few real clerics and summoning in his name has been done. He can be an object of worship, but very few actually do so today.

Also, Coor and Ava are not known by any Northern tribe except elves. Even humans of the South do not recognize them. They are strictly elven concepts so having a North human tribe integrate them in their culture seems difficult to comprehend... huh

Perhaps the Antislar have different concepts of a light/dark, chaos/order that is not derived from Ava/Coor. Was this something picked up from the dark elves?
Logged

No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2.415


The Remusian


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: 21 April 2010, 08:51:21 »

Yes, they picked it up from the elves, or at least, that was my plan.  As far as the elves not worshipping Ava or Coor as gods, that is ok, because the Antislar basically screwed up their interpretation of the elves beliefs, and kind of went their own way, becoming further and further from the original as time went on.  So, a thorough understanding of how the elves view Ava and coor really isn't necessary.

Quote
ca. 12700 b.S.  Explorers discover the Ice Tribes
Elven explorers from Fá'áv'cál'âr record the existence of minor and primitive human presence in the Icelands.

In the histories, there is mention of Icefolk as well as Ice Tribes.  Now, this was probably just a change in how the devers named them, but I want to take that mistake (if it is one, I may have missed something pertinent here, admittedly) and turn the icefolk into the beginnings of both the Ice Tribes, and the Antislar.  The Antislar were forced from the Icelands coast by what are now the Ice Tribes and became Antislar once they founded the city of Antis on the island of Islar.

Later, Kanapans mixed with the Ice Tribes to form both the Tokarians and the Remusians.

Make sense?  A little? undecided

Thank you for taking a look at this Azhira. :)
Logged

"Lather...Rinse...Repeat"   Why has God made my life so complicated?

This is what I'm working on
Valan Nonesuch
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 113
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1.507


Like a pudding bag full of knives


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: 21 April 2010, 12:05:58 »

Alsetism, no gravity, no magnetism buck

When you say attraction/repulsion, what are we talking about here? Simple inertia or a more "elevated" look at sort of idea.

It's an interesting concept.

@Azhira, remember humans are always prone to botching the idea of high gods.
Logged

Beyond the horizon where the earth and the heavens meet
lies a certain point where they are not joined together and where, by stooping,
one might pass under the roof of the heavens.
Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2.415


The Remusian


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: 21 April 2010, 12:22:17 »

Alsetism, yes.  I was not planning on using those modern terms in the actual entry.  But thanks for reminding me, Valan. :)

I might just be too tired, but I'm not sure what you mean by "more elevated".  It is like magnetism, but applies to everything, not just metals, and can be influenced by power of will.  Like you concentrating on a small fridge magnet and being able to lift 200 lbs with it.  It forms the basis for the attraction of the sexes, so it is not just a physical force, but one that can manifest itself in many forms.
Logged

"Lather...Rinse...Repeat"   Why has God made my life so complicated?

This is what I'm working on
Valan Nonesuch
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 113
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1.507


Like a pudding bag full of knives


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: 21 April 2010, 12:26:31 »

A less literal term.
So literally dealing with attraction and repulsion in any way shape or form.
Logged

Beyond the horizon where the earth and the heavens meet
lies a certain point where they are not joined together and where, by stooping,
one might pass under the roof of the heavens.
Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2.415


The Remusian


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: 21 April 2010, 13:03:59 »

Yes.  :D
Logged

"Lather...Rinse...Repeat"   Why has God made my life so complicated?

This is what I'm working on
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 11.638


Shendar, Shen-D'auras


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #7 on: 21 April 2010, 16:01:06 »

Hi Alt, your nemesis is coming! And the spellchecker did not work! evil

First , I want you to remember, that we have these migration maps, so your history quote might be invalid, but that doesn't matter. All (or most?) humans might have come to these lands after the fall of Fá'áv'cál'âr.

They will have known about Avá and Coór and mingled them up, changed to their needs over the course of time.  I personally would prefer, if the names are not plainly visible.


1./ Magic

Coorava, (Kohrayva, etc)... some spelling that will be a derivative of the two elven gods Coor and Ava.  Pronunciation and spelling should show a natural evolution.


Yes, please, go far away from Avá and Coór, these names should not be visible clearly anymore. For, even back in Fá'áv'cál'âr, the humans believed in the Twelve, ..ermm, I think. Where are they gone? Why developed the Antislar this belief and the icetribes a totally different one? Could it be, that the antislar split from the rest of the icetribes due to a rift between them about religious believes? A prophet, who remembered (wrongly) old tales about Ava and Coor? Was there a common belief at some point in time?

To the names:
Ava - Aya, Ayva, Arva, Anva, An, Antis, Anlar
Coor - Kohr, Kor, Korlar, Kortislar, Ko‘ortis, Kortis, Kohortis
--An‘va - Kor‘lar (this as connecting syllable, maybe its meaning is just ,and‘)


Just as Ava has her polar opposite, Coor, so does everything in life; north/south, good/evil, positive/negative etc.  They cannot exist without the other half.  Everything has these elements in it.  There is Ava (Ahva, Ayva, etc) that is called good, calm, etc... while Coor (Kohr, Koor, etc) is evil, chaos, etc.  Women are considered to have more coor, as pointed out by their more chaotic natures, while men are higher in Ava, being more logical and ordered.  (Hey, don't shoot the messenger, folks )  This is why men are attracted to women.

I will shoot the messenger :D  Just wondering, how chaotic the females in your life were! ;)

(Me, a chaotic nature? NEVER! But please don‘t look my untidy house..)

With these two principles, magic was created by harnessing the forces.  It is because of Coorava that Lodestone is attracted to iron (magnetism).  Extrapolating from this, Antislar mages (I hate this name for them.  I might go with shamans) were able to deduce that lodestone was higher in Ava, while iron was higher in Coor.  (Why this way round?) They learned that through deep focusing of their will, they could ramp up the properties of Ava or Coor in almost any object.  In doing so, great buildings could be constructed by manipulating stone and levitating it into place.

Why do you not invent a new term for your mages? You have to explain it in the beginning of the entry, but then it should be clear of whom you speak. If that force is going to be Koraya e.g., then they could be named Korayans/Kohrayvans - Koryans/Kohrvans etc..

I don‘t see though yet, as magical illiterate, how this strengthening of a component could allow to do such great works. So far I thought, everything what a magic could do, should be explicable in terms of another one also, which is the case with Ximaxian magic and Krean magic. Maybe you need some thorough help here from our mages.


I want to keep this a primitive magic, and should not be compared to Ximaxian magic or to Krean magic.  This is why I don't think Mage would apply to the wielders of this magic.  There would be no spells in the way Ounia and Carall spells exist.  Just simple attraction and repulsion abilities.

I don‘t get yet, where you want to apply this, or are most things, where you don‘t find such a repulsion or attraction in an equilibrium?

We do have gravitational forces (sorry Valan), just not all earthen laws , to not complicate the ways things work on the disk. So every apple does not fall to the center , but vertical to the disc. But there is an attraction of the mass.  I don‘t know, if you could say, when you do your magic, you create a kind of antigravitation? ??

2./  Religion

They no longer believe in two separate gods or entities.  They have taken the beliefs of the Elves and bastardized them until they are now unrecognizable.  There is only one entity, Coorava (spelling).

Everything must balance in order for the world to continue.  When Coor has gathered enough of the world, the world will be destroyed in violence.  If Ava gathers too much good in the world, she will wake and the world will blink out of existence.  Either way, it don't look good for us guys down here on the disk.  So, the Antislar feel it is in their best interest to keep balance.  In their view, the world has become too full of good.  There are far too few wars and chaos.  Elves and dwarves are too ordered, with too much Ava in their blood, as are hobbits, gnomes and Brownies.  Orcs are pure Coor, while man is like an ocean and the tides are constantly in flux.  Of course, these are generalities and exceptions can be found, Coor'hem elves, Darkling Brownies, etc.  

Hmm, you say, they have just one deity left, so where from comes that dual principle? What is it, that will rise or go back? What are those two components? Abstract ideas?

In a true state, Ava will rise to the surface.  It is naturally the stronger pull.  But, Coor is the more volitile essence, and when it comes forth, the Antislar feel it is their duty to help it even the scales, if only temporarily.  The last time this happened was during SW III, when the Antislar joined the Darkfriends.

The Antislar believe that it is better for Coor to destroy the world, than for Ava to wake.  For if Coor destroys the world, Ava's dream will continue and the world will be reborn, anew.  If, however, Ava were to awaken and the dream were to end, there would be no rebirth, for even a god cannot have the same dream over again.

Now that is too much of the old elven belief, I thought they lost it, you have a new goddess, so why would they know of the dreaming Ava? I think you can skip that altogether. You can just have the belief, that all has to be balanced, for otherwise, even if the good would overtake, the cosmos/world would break and be lost/destroyed etc.

I wonder what for status the women will have in your society, wasn‘t it quite low? Does that not contradict the fact, that more Kohr is needed as your people think? Should they not venerate those who embrace that what they think is not enough present to keep the balance?

Life begets death; death begets life. It is a circle.  (Cue the Lion King theme)  In order to ensure life for their people, Antislar priests (and I do wish to use this name, because it has been used to describe servants of god of every culture.  I know that Egyptian priests venerated Ra, Isis, etc, and Mayan priests held ceremonies in Copan, Aztec priests cut out the hearts id sacrificial victims, so the term should not simply be disregarded as a Judeo-Christian title) take the life of sacrificial victims.  If possible, enemy combatants are used.  If none are available, members of their own community are used.  This is seen as a mark of honour to be chosen, and victims are revered right up to the point of death.  Sacrifices are held in specially prepared rooms, where glyphs are carved into the floor and the victim ihas their throat cut.  The spray of the blood, and its pattern on the carved floor give the priests portents into the future and the mood of the god.  Depending on the severety of a bad omen, harsh consequences might be required.

Is there a difference between priests and mages?

Death is not the end for the Antislar.  They believe that there are only a certain amount of people in the world.  Every birth means that somewhere a person has died at that exact moment.  In rare cases, one can observe this transference of life.  There will be a story told of a King who died at the exact moment his daughter was giving birth to a son.  

What about conception? Wouldn‘t it be a cool idea, that a certain couple (the grandson e.g. ) has to try to get his mate pregnant while his grandfather dies? (Oh, but it might be a girl.. Room for stories!lol)

The child was given the King's name and grew up knowing certain facts of his grandfathers life that proved this theory true.  It also is the basis for the Ilshanova and the Escadilla. (Which I need to finish, but having these facts cemented down will aide in) This gives the Antislar another reason to go to war with the Remusians so often.  It makes sense that for every Remusian killed, a new Antislar will be born.

Weren‘t there times, where their numbers were much smaller? Do they then assume, that somewhere in the far south less people are born? Or that a war rages somewhere, if they and the Remusians prosper?

As a people, they all believe in these tenants.  Itr also makes them a very accepting people, as all life is the same balance of Coor and Ava.  Thus, they treat orcs with no bias, trade with the Ice Elves of northern Iol.  Only the Remusians do they have an almost fervant hatred for, as the two peoples have been warring for 1300 hundred years.  This, and the Remusians are so rigid and ordered (from a Antislar perspective) that they are considered the zenith of Ava pursuasion.

A very interesting concept, Altario. Needs a little work‘! ;)

If I would not have so many other things on my plate, I would write up the religion for the Hiiko, for it is similar in some aspects. They have a dual goddess also, apart from a few others. But they have not the good/evil concept, but they don‘t attribute good or evil to the „things“, but see them as the are - cold/warm north/south , moon/sun.


The Himiko pantheon

[font color=#3333FF]
Gods Overview
[/font]
All gods are ambivalent, have positive and negative aspects,

Anua, First One, the doublefaced goddess, the goddess of fire and ice, of live and death, creator and destroyer, goddess of volcanos as well as the warm springs and ponds in the caves, goddess of the soft snow and sharp ice.

genderless/both genders

Groar,(Grothar) the god of the weather, of the storms and the upbreaking ice in spring, god of thunder and lightning, currents
{animal: big white bird}

Sella (Seyella), goddess of destiny, the goddess who enables the „seeing“ of the gifted ones . merciless as

Nirra: (Arvin - Nivra - Nirra) goddess of hunt, preserver of the oecological equilibrum, goddess of the animals

Jerra: (Jeyriall) The old/young woman, the goddess of fertility, of birth and renewal, goddess of healing

Revol: (Lover) The old/young man, god of love, worshipped by both genders, but seen as the god for the men especially. (Love and jealousy)

Maybe I should post this stuff somewhere ;)






Logged

"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
***Astropicture of the Day***Talia's Long, Long List***
Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 64
Offline Offline

Posts: 848



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: 21 April 2010, 16:44:46 »

I don‘t see though yet, as magical illiterate, how this strengthening of a component could allow to do such great works. So far I thought, everything what a magic could do, should be explicable in terms of another one also, which is the case with Ximaxian magic and Krean magic. Maybe you need some thorough help here from our mages. Strictly speaking, this isn't magic in the Ximaxian sense, but rather a new force of physics that can simply be manipulated by certain people. However, if one had to do what you suggest, I'm sure with the Ximaxian system movement of an object is possible? But to me the how needs no explaination - no more than "How do Ximaxians manipulate Ounia?". It is the same thing - a Fire mage raises dominance of Fire, a Koyravan raises the power of chaos. Same thing (although I'm no magic expert, this is how it appears to me.)

We do have gravitational forces (sorry Valan), just not all earthen laws , to not complicate the ways things work on the disk. So every apple does not fall to the center , but vertical to the disc. But there is an attraction of the mass.  I don‘t know, if you could say, when you do your magic, you create a kind of antigravitation? ??

It's more like magnetism - in gravity, mass attracts mass, but in magnetism + attracts -, north attracts south and Coor attracts Ava. Imagine if I have two magnets, and I can change how magnetic they are. I make them weak North magnets - one floats above the other. Then make them stronger magnets - one floats even higher. Now imaging I can do that to anything, and replace North and South with Coor and Ava. If I fill a rock with more Ava and do the same to the ground, the rock levitates. It's not antigravity because it can create attraction as well - it's a polar system. Like I said, it's a new force.

Everything must balance in order for the world to continue.  When Coor has gathered enough of the world, the world will be destroyed in violence.  If Ava gathers too much good in the world, she will wake and the world will blink out of existence.  Either way, it don't look good for us guys down here on the disk.  So, the Antislar feel it is in their best interest to keep balance.  In their view, the world has become too full of good.  There are far too few wars and chaos.  Elves and dwarves are too ordered, with too much Ava in their blood, as are hobbits, gnomes and Brownies.  Orcs are pure Coor, while man is like an ocean and the tides are constantly in flux.  Of course, these are generalities and exceptions can be found, Coor'hem elves, Darkling Brownies, etc. 

Hmm, you say, they have just one deity left, so where from comes that dual principle? What is it, that will rise or go back? What are those two components? Abstract ideas?Maybe say it as "If the chaotic side of Kohraya gathers too much power in the world, Kohraya will no longer exist, and the world will be destroyed with it". That negates the duality.

Is there a difference between priests and mages? Slight, but yes there is. Mages gain power from secular paths, priests are supposedly granted it by God/the Gods. Also priests do not HAVE to be able to cast spells, but for mages it's in the job description.

I'll shut up now.

Athviaro
Logged

"I don't care what you did as a boy."
"Well, I did nothing as a girl, so there goes my childhood." - Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire, The Gay Divorcee, 1934.
The Life and Works of Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
Kalta'hnk - My ramblings on anything to do with the Glandorians - The Glandorian Men (Proposal)
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 11.638


Shendar, Shen-D'auras


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #9 on: 21 April 2010, 19:18:20 »

Athviaro, I think you got a few things wrong, :D I start from the end of your post .

Alt wants to have a magic without spells, he wants to have no 'mages' altogether, so it might be, that those gifted people who can manipulate the forces are the priests also. We will see, what he says !


Quote
Maybe say it as "If the chaotic side of Kohraya gathers too much power in the world, Kohraya will no longer exist, and the world will be destroyed with it". That negates the duality.

Errm, no, the antislar favour the chaotic side, the answer would be: "If one side of the ..'entity' Koraya overtakes, the world will be destroyed. As the Antislar think, there is too much order in the world, they need to support the chaotic side to guarantee the further existence of the world.

To the properties of magnetism. I fear you got them somehow wrong, for you cannot make one part of such a dipole stronger and the other weaker. So the comparison lacks. That would mean, that if the evil component  gets stronger, the good does as well, kind of automatically. That does not easily explain, how this new magic works.

Of course this is no magic in the Ximaxian sense, but it is a magic system nevertheless. Your question ""How do Ximaxians manipulate Ounia?"" is a wrong one here, the comparison would be: "How do Xiamxian mages this and that, e.g. lift stones?" and the answer would be: "They manipulate ounia."

It is too simple to just say, we introduce a new force here. This new force would have to be present over the whole disk and therefore SOMEHOW be compatible with the other magic systems.
But I'm sure, that the Ximaxian mages can explain what Altario wants to have - and his "mages" use this without necessarily knowing how it works.

There was a good reason, that new magic systems were banned for a long time.

Seems Alt has to bother Coren, Mina or Rayne. For this goes beyond spell making.
Logged

"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
***Astropicture of the Day***Talia's Long, Long List***
Azhira Styralias
Moderator
****

Gained Aura: 132
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.774


Mód’dél’áey


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: 21 April 2010, 19:33:13 »

Quote
Yes, please, go far away from Avá and Coór, these names should not be visible clearly anymore. For, even back in Fá'áv'cál'âr, the humans believed in the Twelve, ..ermm, I think. Where are they gone? Why developed the Antislar this belief and the icetribes a totally different one? Could it be, that the antislar split from the rest of the icetribes due to a rift between them about religious believes? A prophet, who remembered (wrongly) old tales about Ava and Coor? Was there a common belief at some point in time?

This is what I was trying to say in my post. The familiarity of Ava and Coor should be distant myth. Probably, from a researcher point of view, there would be assumptions and speculation where/how the Antislar beliefs originated, but in no sense should there be a definite "Ava/Coor" origin. Except, from a developer POV...

In other words, the names and basic concepts should be vaguely similar enough to warrant a theory that goes back to Ava/Coor stories, but not enough to be concrete.

As for magic, I am fairly competent with Ximaxian magic so I can help there in the absence of our respected magic experts (though I am not on their level of expertise by any margin)
Logged

No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 64
Offline Offline

Posts: 848



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: 21 April 2010, 21:22:01 »

I think you misunderstood me, Talia. I'll start at the very beginning, a very good place to start.

I understand your point, what I was doing was just giving you the distinction. Of course in the priests probably will be the magic users, but the word "priest" does not mean "magic user" whereas "mage" does.

Sorry, I mislead you with my idea. I meant to say "If either side..." and then say "as the Antislar think there is too much Aya/Ava in the world, they tend to favour the forces of Koyr/Coor."

I was trying to make my description of magnetism easier for a layman to understand. However, you are, I'm afraid, wrong. If I have two disc-shaped magnets and place them North to North, the one will float above the other, yes? Then I make the magnets more powerful, and they float higher, because the attraction between N and S is weaker than the repulsion between N and N (as the Ns are closer to each other).
Anyway, is this not how basic Ximaxian works? Rather than increasing actual levels, increase the power in a temporary sense.

Finally, in electrostatic physics, one can charge one end of an object positive by forcing the negative charges to the other end. Overall it is neutral, but one end will repel positive charges. This could be how most Koyraya magic works - temporary changes that then disappear.

There could be a more powerful system, in which the sum of Koyraya in an object is changed. This would be permenant, like Sphere 3, and have implications on the Deity Koyraya as well. If the deity is separate from the world, the fore could be "banished" to it or "summoned" from it, so charging an object "Koyr" would raise the dominance of "aya" in the deity. If the deity IS the force, then raising the dominance of Koyr would require the creation of Koyr or destruction of Aya. Both of these  methods would have serious effects on the equilibrium, and so rarely be used. Perhaps it can only be destroyed, and so use of this depletes the world? Or some train in creation and some destruction (like Xeau and Ecau)?

No, my question is correct, but we'll take it back a step. How do Ximaxians do stuff? Manipulate Ounia. How do Koyrayans? Manipulate Koyraya. How do Koyrayans manipulate this? How do Ximaxians? The latter is not explained. Neither need the former be.

This force is present over the whole disc. Just it's balanced, so no-one notices. The fun starts when the balance is lost.

It seems to me that this is exactly the same as being able to manipulate the electrostatic charges of matter. Like I said, it's just physics.

Forgive my ramblings.

Athviaro
« Last Edit: 21 April 2010, 21:44:53 by Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr » Logged

"I don't care what you did as a boy."
"Well, I did nothing as a girl, so there goes my childhood." - Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire, The Gay Divorcee, 1934.
The Life and Works of Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr
Kalta'hnk - My ramblings on anything to do with the Glandorians - The Glandorian Men (Proposal)
Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2.415


The Remusian


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: 21 April 2010, 21:42:19 »

Oh, so much great input.  Let me try to digest and comprehend it, and I will reply more in depth.

And is Koraya the name?  Seems to be a general favourite term by the look of it.  Or is that too close to Kayrrhem?

There will be a general handing out of auras as I again read in depth all your comments.  Thank you for playing along. :)
Logged

"Lather...Rinse...Repeat"   Why has God made my life so complicated?

This is what I'm working on
Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2.415


The Remusian


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: 22 April 2010, 01:35:34 »

Ok, I am trying to reply to all questions and comments.  I will start with Talias, as hers was the longest.  I'll reply to the rest in my next post.  Once again, thank you all for giving me ideas and comments to consider.  I think a new tribe should get the contributions of as many people as possible.  I'll get to the rest today, as soon as I can. :D

Quote
First , I want you to remember, that we have these migration maps, so your history quote might be invalid, but that doesn't matter. All (or most?) humans might have come to these lands after the fall of Fá'áv'cál'âr.

They will have known about Avá and Coór and mingled them up, changed to their needs over the course of time.  I personally would prefer, if the names are not plainly visible.
Thanks for those maps, Talia.  Might have to adjust dates.  Also you say "All (or most?) humans might have come after the fall..."  Could the icefolk be part of the non "most"?  How "hard and true" are the migration maps?  They say they are trying to follow the history on site while admitting that some things might change, both maps and entries.  Could the Icefolk have moved to the Iceland Coast along with the Ice Elves that moved to the Iol Peninsula?  This could explain when/where/who the Antislar got their information on Coor and Ava, even if they were only elven myths, the more primitive icefolk might have injested this information as fact, and corrupted the facts over the years.  Having no books or true culture at that time would certainly lend credence to information being changed, lost and ammeded.

1./ Magic

Quote
Where are they gone? Why developed the Antislar this belief and the icetribes a totally different one? Could it be, that the antislar split from the rest of the icetribes due to a rift between them about religious believes? A prophet, who remembered (wrongly) old tales about Ava and Coor? Was there a common belief at some point in time?
If we can agree to the overall themes here, we can get to the details of this split when we go to write the Belief or History sections, I would think.

Quote
Just wondering, how chaotic the females in your life were!
Very. :P

Quote
deduce that lodestone was higher in Ava, while iron was higher in Coor.  (Why this way round?)
Dunno yet, to be honest.  I'll try to think up some good theories, unless someone beats me to it.

Quote
Why do you not invent a new term for your mages? You have to explain it in the beginning of the entry, but then it should be clear of whom you speak. If that force is going to be Koraya e.g., then they could be named Korayans/Kohrayvans - Koryans/Kohrvans etc..
If Koraya is the name, then perhaps I will go with your suggestion.  Good idea. :)

Quote
I don‘t see though yet, as magical illiterate, how this strengthening of a component could allow to do such great works. So far I thought, everything what a magic could do, should be explicable in terms of another one also, which is the case with Ximaxian magic and Krean magic. Maybe you need some thorough help here from our mages.
I think it best explained how Athviaro (still hate that name :P) has done:
Quote
If I have two disc-shaped magnets and place them North to North, the one will float above the other, yes? Then I make the magnets more powerful, and they float higher, because the attraction between N and S is weaker than the repulsion between N and N (as the Ns are closer to each other).

Quote
I don‘t get yet, where you want to apply this, or are most things, where you don‘t find such a repulsion or attraction in an equilibrium?
Yes, unless manipulated, most things are in equilibrium with like items and most other objects, more or less.  Though, naturally occuring attractions and repulsions do exist, like the examples given; lodestone/iron, men/women, etc.

Quote
We do have gravitational forces (sorry Valan), just not all earthen laws , to not complicate the ways things work on the disk. So every apple does not fall to the center , but vertical to the disc. But there is an attraction of the mass.  I don‘t know, if you could say, when you do your magic, you create a kind of antigravitation? ??
Yes.  By elevating the ava in the ground as well as in an object on the ground, the two items will repulse each other, and the smaller object will be forced away from the larger, in this case, the smaller object will float away from the ground.  By increasing the ava, the further the smaller object will travel.  Then by allowing the ava levels to return to normal, the object will settle or fall, depending on how quickly the levels are adjusted.

2./ Religion

Quote
Hmm, you say, they have just one deity left, so where from comes that dual principle? What is it, that will rise or go back? What are those two components? Abstract ideas?
Just like a coin is one object, it has two faces on it.  Each seperate, each part of the one.  That is their view of the Koraya.  Kinda like the Hindu gods, which are many avatars of Vishnu (if I recall correctly.  Please forgive me if I have gotten that wrong), or how Catholics believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three seperate forms of God, but all God at once.  Coor and Ava are both seperate and one at the same time.  Boy, I'm deep, no? ;)

Quote
Now that is too much of the old elven belief, I thought they lost it, you have a new goddess, so why would they know of the dreaming Ava? I think you can skip that altogether. You can just have the belief, that all has to be balanced, for otherwise, even if the good would overtake, the cosmos/world would break and be lost/destroyed etc.
I would like to keep the Sleeping Dreameress.  It forms the two distinct ways in which the world can end, which in turn, influences how the Antislar choose which destruction is least bad.  Better to be destroyed and brought back, than to simply blink out of existance forever.  They have lost, misconstrued and just plain screwed up many things, but many grains of truth should still be there.  Kind of like looking up the entymology of words, where you see the root and how it is changed of the centuries, but only has now a vague resemblence to the original word.

Quote
I wonder what for status the women will have in your society, wasn‘t it quite low? Does that not contradict the fact, that more Kohr is needed as your people think? Should they not venerate those who embrace that what they think is not enough present to keep the balance?
I can't remember off hand stating that women were going to be lessened in this society, though I could be wrong.  Never the less, I do plan to have this as a fairly equal opportunity society, to offset the chauvanistic attitudes of the Ice Tribes.  So, if I did say that before, my intentions have changed.

Quote
Is there a difference between priests and mages?
The Priests will be more concerned with the religious aspects of Koraya, while the mages will be more secular.  If I give the Priests manipulation of Koraya, will that then fall under the heading of Clerical Magic?  The mages will be more like specialized construction workers, using Koraya to build exquisite structures.  Maybe down in the hold of our Ski-ships, so they can travel over land and snow, not just over the frozen seas.  (Though, I want to make this especially hard, so that it doesn't get abused.  Perhaps making the amount of will needed to increase the ava in the ground to be near impissible because the movement changes the area you need to manipulate too quickly to make it practical, though it does get done for short trips, etc.)

Quote
What about conception? Wouldn‘t it be a cool idea, that a certain couple (the grandson e.g. ) has to try to get his mate pregnant while his grandfather dies? (Oh, but it might be a girl.. Room for stories!lol)
An excellent idea.   :D  Perhaps a child is born without a "soul" until one fills it, and is not named until the Priests have "seen" the spirit enter the child.  Children who die before being filled with a soul are not mourned.  And at the other end of the spectrum, a person who dies has their "soul" disembodied until they find a suitable container (baby) to inhabit.  They are only given a limited time to find one, or they will "die" becoming non reincarnatable, so they take what they can get.  Or maybe a force pulls them into the nearest vessel, and that force increases over time, so that if Grampa croaks, he will try and wait for Pregnant Paula to give birth, but each day that passes he will be pulled more forcefully, until finally he is forced into the nearest vessel; an accursed Remusian.  Oh Koraya please don't let that happen.

Quote
Weren‘t there times, where their numbers were much smaller? Do they then assume, that somewhere in the far south less people are born? Or that a war rages somewhere, if they and the Remusians prosper?
Correct.  Only a limited number of "souls".  Like toothpaste in a tube.  Squeeze one end, the other bulges.  Sqeeze there, and it goes someplace else.  If both they and the Remusians prosper, someone someplace is getting their arse kicked.  And vice versa.

Quote
A very interesting concept, Altario. Needs a little work‘!
That's what the thread is for. :)  A brainstorming call to all the interested devers to drop ideas.

« Last Edit: 22 April 2010, 02:26:52 by Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin » Logged

"Lather...Rinse...Repeat"   Why has God made my life so complicated?

This is what I'm working on
Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2.415


The Remusian


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: 22 April 2010, 02:14:27 »

Ok, the rest of the comments. :)

1./ Magic

Quote
Strictly speaking, this isn't magic in the Ximaxian sense, but rather a new force of physics that can simply be manipulated by certain people. However, if one had to do what you suggest, I'm sure with the Ximaxian system movement of an object is possible? But to me the how needs no explaination - no more than "How do Ximaxians manipulate Ounia?". It is the same thing - a Fire mage raises dominance of Fire, a Koyravan raises the power of chaos. Same thing (although I'm no magic expert, this is how it appears to me.)
Quote
It is too simple to just say, we introduce a new force here. This new force would have to be present over the whole disk and therefore SOMEHOW be compatible with the other magic systems.
But I'm sure, that the Ximaxian mages can explain what Altario wants to have - and his "mages" use this without necessarily knowing how it works.
Being a non magic person myself, if we were to have a Ximaxian comparison to this form of magic, someone else would need to explain it.  I've never spent much time reading the concepts of Ximaxian magic.  11 CDs on the RP side and not one a mage.  I think that is a record.:P  But, havingh a Ximaxian explain it in terms he could understand makes sense.  I don't see this as a new force, per se, but a manipulation of existing forces; magnetism, gravity, alsetism, etc.

Quote
As for magic, I am fairly competent with Ximaxian magic so I can help there in the absence of our respected magic experts (though I am not on their level of expertise by any margin
Would appreciate the input, Azhira. :)

Quote
Finally, in electrostatic physics, one can charge one end of an object positive by forcing the negative charges to the other end. Overall it is neutral, but one end will repel positive charges. This could be how most Koyraya magic works - temporary changes that then disappear.
Yes, a liquid state, so to speak, wherre you force all the ava in an object to one end of the pool, leaving all the coor in the other end.  Then, when the force of will is released, they slosh back together.  Like salad dressing or oil and water.  Except in this case, the natural state is mixed, but they can be seperated by the force of will applied to it.

Quote
There could be a more powerful system, in which the sum of Koyraya in an object is changed. This would be permenant, like Sphere 3, and have implications on the Deity Koyraya as well. If the deity is separate from the world, the fore could be "banished" to it or "summoned" from it, so charging an object "Koyr" would raise the dominance of "aya" in the deity. If the deity IS the force, then raising the dominance of Koyr would require the creation of Koyr or destruction of Aya. Both of these  methods would have serious effects on the equilibrium, and so rarely be used. Perhaps it can only be destroyed, and so use of this depletes the world? Or some train in creation and some destruction (like Xeau and Ecau)?
Uhm... you lost me.  Dunno nothin bout no magic here.:P

Quote
This force is present over the whole disc. Just it's balanced, so no-one notices. The fun starts when the balance is lost.

It seems to me that this is exactly the same as being able to manipulate the electrostatic charges of matter. Like I said, it's just physics.
Exactly.

2./ Religion

Quote
Maybe say it as "If the chaotic side of Kohraya gathers too much power in the world, Kohraya will no longer exist, and the world will be destroyed with it". That negates the duality.
I want to keep the duality, as explained in my answer to Talia referencing the Hindu and Trinity aspects of two religions.  I think we can make a dual aspect of one entity.

Quote
This is what I was trying to say in my post. The familiarity of Ava and Coor should be distant myth. Probably, from a researcher point of view, there would be assumptions and speculation where/how the Antislar beliefs originated, but in no sense should there be a definite "Ava/Coor" origin. Except, from a developer POV...

In other words, the names and basic concepts should be vaguely similar enough to warrant a theory that goes back to Ava/Coor stories, but not enough to be concrete.
I think we can make that possible.  What is posted in this thread is the dever POV, and not what will be written in the entry itself, at least not verbatim. (ooh, twice I've used that word in the last couple days.  I'm turning into a Wordsmith :))
Logged

"Lather...Rinse...Repeat"   Why has God made my life so complicated?

This is what I'm working on
Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Print
Jump to:  

Recent
[27 March 2019, 00:01:57]

[21 June 2018, 14:28:00]

[31 May 2017, 06:35:55]

[06 May 2017, 05:27:04]

[03 April 2017, 01:15:03]

[26 March 2017, 12:48:25]

[15 March 2017, 02:23:07]

[15 March 2017, 02:20:28]

[15 March 2017, 02:17:52]

[14 March 2017, 20:23:43]

[06 February 2017, 04:53:35]

[31 January 2017, 08:45:52]

[15 December 2016, 15:50:49]

[26 November 2016, 23:16:38]

[27 October 2016, 07:42:01]

[27 September 2016, 18:51:05]

[11 September 2016, 23:17:33]

[11 September 2016, 23:15:27]

[11 September 2016, 22:58:56]

[03 September 2016, 22:22:23]
Members
Total Members: 1019
Latest: lolanixon
Stats
Total Posts: 144586
Total Topics: 11052
Online Today: 38
Online Ever: 700
(23 January 2020, 20:05:39)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 48
Total: 48

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2005, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Theme based on Cerberus with Risen adjustments by Bloc and Krelia
Modified By Artimidor for The Santharian Dream
gfx
gfxgfx gfxgfx