Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Magic in the Lands of Caelereth => Topic started by: Mina on 07 November 2005, 08:16:00



Title: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 07 November 2005, 08:16:00
Finally, my first entry!  I guess it's about time, eh?  I hope this isn't too badly done.  Looks rather short to me too.  :      


Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level 1

This is one of the simplest wind spells.  As suggested by its name, it conjures up wind, which could range from a gentle breeze to a strong gale at the highest levels.  This spell can also be used to strengthen wind that already exists.  It is not unusual for wind magi to use this spell to cool themselves when it gets hot, or if for some reason they are wearing clothing meant for much cooler weather.  

Spell Effect
Air is sometimes described as Wind that is being still.  More accurately, the Earth ounia in a car'all that consists mainly of Wind ounia are exerting their influence in the form of causing stillness in the wind. What this spell does is increase the amount of influence the Wind ounia exert over the car'all, overcoming the stillness of Earth and turning air into wind.  The effect is temporary, however, the car'all  returning to its original state once the mage stops casting.  Thus, the wind dies down, becoming air once again.  

Casting Procedure
The caster focuses on the target area and concentrates on increasing the influence of the element of Wind, especially idea of movement, in the area, as well as defining the direction the wind is to blow in.  If a direction is not specified, the wind will blow in whichever is the most convenient direction.  At the same time, he or she takes some sand and lets it fall to the ground, signifying the decreasing influence of Earth on the car'all.  

Magical Formula  

Target
The target is simply the region of air where the caster wishes the wind to be, which could be around himself or herself, or some distance away.  Those particularly skilled with this spell can be even more specific than this, excluding certain parts of the target area or even targeting multiple areas.  

Reagents
Sand is the most commonly used reagent for this spell.  The mage holds an amount of sand in his or her hand and lets it fall to the ground, signifying the decrease of the influence of Earth on the car'all.  However, due to it's simplicity, reagents are usually not needed for casting this spell, except for beginning mages, or when casting the more powerful forms of the spell.  

Magical School
Wind

Spell Class
Physical representation of Sphere I

Range
From the area immediately around the caster to a distance away, as long is it is within the caster's line of sight.  The maximum depends on the level of the caster.  There is a balance between the distance from which the spell is cast, size of the target area, and strength of the wind conjured.  The greater one is, the lower the maximum for the other two gets.  A breeze around oneself is easily achievable for most, while strong winds covering a large area far away would be difficult even for an Archmage of Wind.  

Duration
As with all Sphere I spells, the duration is as long as the caster can sustain it, which in this case is dependent on the three prevoiusly mentioned factors of range, size of targeted area, and strength of wind conjured, as well as, of course, the power of the mage casting the spell.  The strongest mages are known to be able to keep a light breeze going around themselves almost indefinitely, while for those just starting to learn magic, durations of a few minutes are about the best they can do.  

Countermeasures/Enhancing Measures
Breaking the caster's concentration is the surest way of countering this spell.  Wind mages can also counter it by performing the reverse spell, reducing the influence of Wind in the target area, and Earth mages can increase the influence of Earth to make up for the increase in the influence of Wind.  

There are no direct enhancing measures, but as mentioned previously, if wind is already present, this spell can make the wind stronger.  Using some other method of generating wind, such as a fan, can thus be considered a sort of enhancing measure.  


Edited by: Mina Aylwin at: 12/4/05 23:23


Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 07 November 2005, 20:28:00
I am inclined, not to disagree, but to offer a second POV on the spell effect: Air is still when the wind ounia are passive on the physical level, as in dominated by the principle of ahm. To make it move you make it active (dominated by soor) and then apply direction/do not apply direction and get random movements.

Reagents: Heh, this is getting fun. With your explanation, Mina, sand will make a splendid reagent. It is listed as a wind reagent in the entry, but is also earth. Thus, take sand, let it fall to the ground, signifying the dampening of the earth influence (as the sand falls and lies still and low, so do the earth ounia).

With my explanation, I have more trouble, but perhaps a feather? As you move it trough the still air, it flutters trough it, and in turn moves the air, stirring it up, making it active.

Enhancing measures: First, a thought I had: If wind is present, it would tremendously help this spell. One is that what is in motion is easier to keep that way (terran physics). Two is that if you move a "slab" of air, it will bump into other still air and use energy to move it, thus you have a tapping of energy that would quicker tire the caster. If wind moves already, this tapping won't be as prominent.

As for direct enhancing measures: Well, magic enhancing stuff, of course, but it helps everything. ... But I fail to see anty enhancing measures here ATM too.

Oh, btw: Good job, keep it up, I shall expect more spells from you.



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 10 November 2005, 03:28:00
Quote:
Air is still when the wind ounia are passive on the physical level, as in dominated by the principle of ahm.

Not so different from what I have here, I think, except in how it's worded.  Sphere 1, as far as I understand it, works by changing the degree of ahm or soor in the xeua links of the ounia of the caster's element.  A Sphere 1 spell that increases wind influence would essentially be making the xeua linking the wind ounia in the car'all together more soor.  However, I disagree that it is dominated by ahm.  The links between Wind ounia in air is already leaning quite strongly towards soor, I think, as air is generally very wind like, except that it lacks movement.  What this spell does is to make the links lean even more heavily towards soor, so whatever influene Earth has becomes almost negligible.  

Quote:
apply direction/do not apply direction and get random movements

Thanks for reminding me about direction.  That had slipped my mind.  

Sand sounds great  :D

Quote:
Two is that if you move a "slab" of air, it will bump into other still air and use energy to move it, thus you have a tapping of energy that would quicker tire the caster. If wind moves already, this tapping won't be as prominent.

I see it in a rather different way.  It seems to me that thinking of wind as movement of air or ounia is just mixing up physics and magic theory.  Wind is not the movement of anything.  Wind is movement itself, or the idea of movement.  Wind ounia aren't moving about when wind is blowing.  Instead, wind ounia carry with them the idea of movement.  Thus, movement is present whereever the element of Wind is dominant, except where the influence of another element 'twists' this dominance and reduces that particular quality of Wind, such as in the example of air that I provided above.  




Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 10 November 2005, 09:27:00
Quote:
I don't think we need to include formulae in our entries at the moment, do we?

Currently the formula system isn't like it should be yet, so we have to wait with adding formulas (at least that's what I've been told)

Things you could add:

How can you direct the wind? I assume that when you just augment the strength of the wind, without doing anything else, it will blow in the most convenient direction. Any way of forcing it to take a certain direction.

And how strong can you make it (roughly related to a level)? I assume a beginning mage could blow out a candle, but when will they be able to blow someone of his feet?

And could you make a wirlwind with it? After all, that's just a strong wind making circles, right?



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 10 November 2005, 10:58:00
Mina: Well, even with the idea of movement, if you hit upon air without this idea, the idea would propagate and spread thin IMHO, so my reasonins applies still. But it was but a suggestion - tis not a big deal.



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 November 2005, 15:21:00
Checking here as well... Let's see...

- "If the target area is not within the caster's line of sight, the mage first has to visualise the area." - This sounds much too complicated for a rather simple Level I spell, even in advanced form. Targeting an area which you cannot directly access must be a Level III sphere spell.

- Yes, with th explanations you're mostly saying the same things I guess - a stronger influence of earth is there when the wind is passive and the other way round. But I also wouldn't necessarily say that "Air is Wind that is being still".  You even say that below, Mina, when you state that "Wind is movement". Air is Wind and thus constantly moving, only the active parts don't dominate over the passive ones in this case I'd say. If the active parts dominate, the connections to earth become passive.

- Rest seems quite ok with me, maybe some additions here and there as suggested above by Silfer & Marvin.

Oh, and nice to see a first official spell from you, Mina:D  


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 11 November 2005, 10:17:00
@Arti: Well, at first, I was going to limit to to line of sight.  Then, I realised that if the mage was casting this spell around herself, roughly half the area targeted would not be visible, and somehow that led to me making it possible for this spell to be cast anywhere, as long as the caster can see or visualise the area.  I have no problems with changing it back though; it shouldn't be much work.  However, I'm curious about why such spells would be sphere 3.  

Well, I remember Rayne or one of the other magic people saying that air is wind being still, and no one contradicted that statement, so I assumed it to be more or less true.  It seemed to make sense too.  Basically, the way I see it is that air and wind are essentially the same thing, except that ai does not exhibit any sign of movement, due to the influence of Earth.  I guess you could think of it as an earth enchantment placed on wind, except not, since it's natural.  

I don't quite get what you mean by the active parts dominating or not dominating over the passive parts.  I'm guessing here that in the context of this spell, it's Wind that is the 'active part' and Earth the 'passive part', which would mean that in this case, what I described isn't that different from what you said.  In both air and wind, the element of Wind is dominant (in the sense of having a much greater amount of influence over the car'all than the other elements).  However, in air, Earth is not completely suppressed, and it still manages to exert its influence over the car'all in the form of causing stillness.  In wind, Wind is even more dominant, and whatever influence Earth has becomes negligible compared to that of Wind, so there are no outward signs of Earth influence at all.  In case I didn't get this across correctly, my idea for this spell was not that Earth is weakened, which isn't really possible for a wind mage anyway.  Instead, Wind is strengthened, so that relative to Wind, Earth has much less influence.  

@Marvin: Uhm...I just assumed that the wind would blow in whatever direction you wish it to.  Well, I don't see any other way it could be done, actually.  As for whirlwinds, yes, I think it should be doable, though more difficult than the normal form of the spell.  I'll add a bit abou this as well, unless it's decided that it's better to make it a different spell altogether.  Really, I'm not sure where the line between something being a variation of a spell and an entirely separate spell is drawn.  Edit: Changed my mind about this.  I suspect that complicated directions (eg. circles and other non-straight stuff) may all be sphere 3.  The reason is an old MSN discussion with Arti, in which he said that a normal unguided foreball would be sphere 2, but a fireball that follows a predefined path (or something like that - my memory isn't that good) would be sphere 3.  I'm not too clear about how and whether this applies here, so I'll wait for his word on this first.  

I was trying to be lazy with the strength of the wind and stuff like that, hence the vagueness.  :b    Given all the variables involved (level, strength, distance, size of area, and duration are the ones I can think of now), defining them would probably be a major headacle involving insanely complicated tables anyway.  Not something I have much interest in doing.  


Edited by: Mina Aylwin at: 11/10/05 17:29


Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 November 2005, 14:30:00
Targeted area not visible Such a spell would be sphere III, because its extremely advanced. It requires something extra from the spellcaster, which goes beyond the standard repertoire. Therefore it cannot be sphere I or II. Everything more complex (see also your last statements) I would say is sphere III.

As a simple rule of thumb one might try saying (maybe we can really simplify it that way, but I guess it's really not much more than that):

Sphere I: Constant energy drain from the caster (e.g. make something hotter, thus temporary, until the caster quits casting)
Sphere II: One-time power release (fireball)
Sphere III: Everything advanced (guided fireball, could be described as a power release plus a continued energy drain for the guiding, which could actually be another fire spell, e.g. level I called something like "Heat Attract", where something is moved towards a heat source)

Air = Wind being still: This is a simplification, but yes, wind that is extremely passive (having a strong earth counterbalance) could be described as "still". It's in the nature of wind however not to be still (just like it is in the nature of earth to be still), so if air is still moving wind, just slowed down extremely.

You say: "My idea for this spell was not that Earth is weakened, which isn't really possible for a wind mage anyway. Instead, Wind is strengthened, so that relative to Wind, Earth has much less influence." Precisely, nothing to add here.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 11 November 2005, 14:38:00
But isn't the defining characteristic of sphere 3 the breaking and reforming of xeua links (in the form of adding, removing, or taking out and putting back in a different arrangement of ouns)?  I don't see this being necessary here.  It seems to be just sphere 1, with a higher power requirement.  




Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 November 2005, 14:51:00
If I tell you to take the mousepad from the table with your hand I guess you won't have a problem with that. If I tell you to take the mousepad from the table and you cannot see it would that be a simple "taking operation"? - Guess not.

You'd need to have some sort of spell combination to be able to achieve more than the intensifying of wind in an area. E.g. something like "Attract Wind" would work here. Attract Wind could pull more wind from the vicinity at one spot (add wind), which you then can use to "Conjure Wind" (=make the wind more dominant in that area).


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 11 November 2005, 16:24:00
Arti, on the visibility topic: You did approve my Distract spell, where target must be in "line of awareness, be it sight, hearing, or otherwise". Also, Spheres have IMHo always been what Mina said - affecting something you don't see IS harder, but that would mean a higher level, certainly - not a different sphere.



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 November 2005, 16:16:00
Disagree. Grabbing something you don't see is a completely different kind of approaching reality. I think the explanation of combined spells is logical, but trying to quench the invisible thing in Sphere I has little to do with the main orientation of Sphere I, in fact nothing at all - it's something seperate and we should see it as such.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 11/10/05 23:22


Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 11 November 2005, 17:24:00
I have always thought tha the spheres were divided according to how the ouns and xeua were affected.  Were we wrong all along?  




Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 November 2005, 17:31:00
Where's the big problem/difficulty?


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 11 November 2005, 17:52:00
Don't have much time left, so I'l make this brief.  Take the example of conjuring wind at somewhere not within the line of sight.  It still works the same way we define sphere 1 spells work, rather than sphere 3 spells.  There is merely the added step of having to be able to visualise the area, and possibly greater difficulty casting since it's probably a great distance away.  None of this has to do with breaking and reforming xeua links, which is what defines a spell as a sphere 3 spell, as far as I understand.  

That's all I have time for now.  I'll be back only in a couple of days, at least, but I should still be able to view this from my mobile phone, if I have the time.  




Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 11 November 2005, 18:04:00
Art: Tis not yet a problem in my view. What you are saying here is just new and unexpected, read Mina's post about what we thought the Spheres were about. And we do want to have correct knowledge in magic, hence we ask for explanations.

Assuming that conjuring wind where you don't see is Sphere 3, I have but one question: Why is it possible with Sphere 3 contra the other two, as in: What makes Sphere 3 way of doing things helpful in thsi respect?



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 12 November 2005, 06:33:00
"There is merely the added step of having to be able to visualise the area" - merely? Yeah sure, and next time I want some orange juice from the supermarket I just envision the supermarket, grab it from there - and I have it hear? Because grabbing it I can do, you know. So following this line of logic grabbing it from a location I don't see is pretty much the same as grabbing it from somewhere where I can see the object? - Can't see why this would work.

The difference why it would work at Sphere III is as described above - because it's a combination of spells, creating new energies and possibilities in doing so, which you are unable to achieve with a simple Sphere I spell, which is pretty much straightforward. Here we have a nice example on how to effectively make a Sphere III spell. We can define certain limits and possibilities taking this explanation into account. If there is a second spell based on this one, which is Sphere III, then the Sphere III spell with added wind could be as well tremendously strong at the higher levels, everything a Sphere I spell cannot do.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 12 November 2005, 11:11:00
I see your point, but disagree with your conclusion. That pulling wind from an area you can't see would require a separate spell - well, sure, why not. As for that spell being Sphere 3, not necessarily. If something is harder to achieve says nothing about means. As you yourself say, Art, "grabbing it I can do". The act of grabbing is the same, seeing or blindfolded. To "get at it" without seeing would require visualising the area, concentrating harder etc. - all pointing to a restriction in level. Thus grabbing it from the supermarket would require even higher level, because magic in santharia isn't allowed to eschew distance - teleporting etc. isn't allowed. Thus, you have to reach across the distance.

I especially disagree with the redefining of Spheres by saying that "everything complex/hard to do goes into Sphere 3" (this point has been raised by me before, I think). While it may be eaiser to do by Sphere 3 means, does and should not automatically make it impossible with other Spheres.  



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 12 November 2005, 11:59:00
:notthatway  

Complete disagreement here. Can't disagree more. "The act of grabbing is the same, seeing or blindfolded." Taking (as an analogy to "doing magic") is something directed, being blindfolded means to have no idea what you grab and stumble around with no idea whatsoever. This points so NOT into a restriction area that it hurts. Sorry, but if I'm extremely good at "grabbing" something then I won't get very far if I'm sitting at home and want something from the supermarket.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 11/11/05 19:00


Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 12 November 2005, 13:20:00
Quote:
Sorry, but if I'm extremely good at "grabbing" something then I won't get very far if I'm sitting at home and want something from the supermarket.


Well, that would depend on your reach, in this case reach of magic influence. But thank you, Arti, I very clearly understand that we disagree - any suggestions at what we shall attempt to move onwards from this point?  



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: xerampelinae deicida on 12 November 2005, 15:53:00
What level do you need to be to perform strong forms of this spell for example blow down an oponent, blow down several, lift a pyge, lift 100 pyges?

What about blowing whole armys into the sea?

Can a mage use this spell to fly? Could he cause an entire army to fly with him to make an attack travel very fast or retreat when cornered?

As far as enhancing measures wizardleaf would make since its associated with ellemental magic.

A feather would be good too particularly a feather of a good flyer. Gryph gryphon, avéquis, manticore, feathered wyvern, and pegasus feathers would all seem like good choises for the most powerfull uses of this spell.

Vévan’már, howler goose, torán eagle, banded ricau, snobyrr, wood owl, corbie and horsefay would all seem to be good choises for powerfull enhancers as well.



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 14 November 2005, 01:33:00
Maybe you're not being technical enough, Arti, because I'm still not getting it.  What I do get, however, is that we might have rather different ideas of what Silfer is calling the reach of magical influence.  So, I'll just post what I think is the case and let you go through it.  

Magical influence, that is, the ability of a mage to force his will on the environment and alter it, has an infinite range, but at a certain point, depending on the power of the mage, the influence is so tiny that it is negligible.  You can compare it to, say, gravity.  Gravity, as far as I remember, has an infinite range, but its influence drops with distance, and if you get far enough, its influence is small enough to be safely neglected for most things.  The same with magic.  A complete beginner might be weak enough that he has negligible influence beyond what he can touch, but an archmage's influence could potentially reach hundreds of peds away (depending on the power of the spell he is casting, of course).  

To use your analogy of grabbing a drink, what I originally had in mind for this spell is not that the drink is in the supermarket (ie. out of reach), but that it is within reach, but out of sight.  Now, to get at the drink in this case, you need to have a good idea of where it is, sort of seeing it in your mind (or you could feel around for it, but that wasn't what I had in mind when writing the spell).  You obviously agree with me somewhere around this part, but I'm not sure what exactly, or why.  It'd be great if you could explain why that makes it sphere 3.  Right now, it's sounding like sphere 3 is a sort of 'none of the above' category, which I'm sure is not the case.  

By the way, the entry was edited before I made my last post, in case you guys didn't notice.  

Xera: It depends, but I'll say probably around level 10 to blow a light person off their feet, and impossible for anything harder than that.  Winds are generally not very good at blowing heavy things away, and people are pretty heavy.  You're better off using telekinesis for that sort of stuff...but it's a more advanced spell.  

Flying with this spell...well, if you can generate strong enough winds, which is unlikely, I suppose it's not exacly impossible, but it would be very impractical and dangerous due to a lack of control.  Again, you're better off using something more advanced.  You'd know those by the time you're strong enough to use this spell for flight anyway.  




Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 November 2005, 03:30:00
Sphere III and why in short (not I don't repeat myself):

- Mage focusses on a visible spot.
- Casts "Attract Wind" to this visible spot.
- Wind gathers there from a location he cannot see.
- Mage casts another spell which now is capable of doing much more with the additional wind gained (=creation of new energies).
- Put these two spells together, call it one advanced spell (Attract Wind + Conjure Wind) and you get a reason why there is a Sphere III and a new spell, which might end up in a tornado.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: xerampelinae deicida on 14 November 2005, 13:30:00
I like Artimidor's idea of attract wind spell creating a tornado. Would this spell have to be limited to 1 visible spot?
Could a higher level mage attract winds to multiple spots at once or attract wind to spots he couldn't see? That might be very usefull in battle if he had enemies  comming from all directions.

Does this spell have to be restricted to speeds that we normally find here on earth? could a level 12 mage using wizard leaf and  feathered wyvern feathers create a wind that travels sevral furlay in seconds. this could be used as a more omnidirectional blast then telekinesis.



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 14 November 2005, 15:44:00
Arti: I understand what you are saying with the above. I assume that you could also use the two spells separate, so if both those spells are sphere 1, a sphere 1 mage could execute the combo, but not as quickly/not together, but first one then the other. Question: Do you imply that it is not possible to affect something outside of sight directly, then? Quote: Mage focusses on a visible spot.

Also, I very much dislike that you completely ignore what Mina and I are saying. I can't imagine it to be in accordance with what Santharia is supposed to be like, take your dreamer's code for example.

Edited by: Silfer Darkflare at: 11/13/05 22:55


Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 November 2005, 05:35:00
Yes, in order to make things realistic I object to making mages supermen and cast spells which can destroy stuff somewhere else around the globe, just for fun with a simple Level I wind spell. If a target is involved, which is not within the caster's arcane mental abilities (mainly Ecuá or Ecuá related magic, e.g. summoning), I don't see why this should work at simple spells. This would destroy any kind of realism.

I don't ignore your posts, I just see no feasible explanation at all you're providing - and this is definitely not working. Who says that "magic has an infinite range"? That's as if you'd say "human arms reach all over the world", but unfortunately nobody can ever reach the orange juice in the supermarket, though. This is already a very questionable premise and from a wrong assumption deductions can't get very far. Human arms have limits and magic has limits as well.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 11/14/05 14:38


Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 15 November 2005, 08:12:00
I said that was my original assumption.  And I also said that I had believed that what you could do decreased with range, so destroying stuff halfway around the world would be pretty much impossible for anyone.  Except maybe the Chosen, if you want to count them.  




Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 15 November 2005, 09:55:00
Of course magic has limits, I never said anything about infinite range. However, there is a difference between affecting what is in front of you with eye closed, and affecting something across the globe. The premise "magic does not have infinte range" does in no way imply "magic does not have any range". As I said previously, magic cannot eschew distance, so just like your arms have a reach, so does magic have a reach. taking your argument with the supermarket, you can't from the premise argue that since you can't get the juice from the supermarket, you can't get it from right under your nose either. It's like saying: "Since I can't earn a million, I can't earn a hundred either, becuase a hundrer is part of the million". Surely you see that this doesn't work either.



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 November 2005, 10:29:00
If you want to manipulate earth as an elemental mage, then earth needs to be there, I'm sorry. Everything else is more fantasy than a consistent magical system. Affecting something around the next corner is pretty much the same as affecting something at the Fidji Isles - you cannot do it.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 15 November 2005, 11:48:00
No, no Art, it's different, will explain it later more clearly.  

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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 November 2005, 12:41:00
The thing is about focussing. If you have nothing to focus on you cannot cast a spell - at least not with elemental magic. If you're a Xeuá or Ecuá mage you target links within the target and/or with the universal fabric of time and space in even higher levels, but this is all a totally different kind of magic. You cannot cast elemental spells into nowhere.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Theodorus Holzman on 15 November 2005, 12:51:00
Well, the solution to this "problem" would be simple. Use Terran laws of intensity and apply them to Caelerethian magic. Or, as Silfer already said, the "potential" of the spell decays with increased range.

If I'm correctly, Terran intensity decays with the square of the increase in radius. (Thus, having effect X at 4 meters will cost 4x more energy than creating effect X at 2 meters distance).
That way, you can have a ranged spell without having the problem of things happening at the other end of the world.

Anyway, I looked up the Spell Sphere definitions, and though I'm no magic expert, I found nothing that would disable a Sphere I mage from casting a spell outside his visual range. The latter seems a strange thing to me anyway, for
1) Sight is not the only sense a person has. Hearing, smell etc. can all extend one's range of detection.
2) No Sphere II or I mage would be able to cast spells in darkness, behind him, blindfolded, or when being blind. It would effectively mean that mages of lower Spheres could be disabled by simple removing their sight, or hiding yourself from their sight.

Furthermore, I do not really understand the analogy with the supermarket. First, the point of discussion is the visibility of the target, and suddenly it is range. To me those things are quite different, and using them similarly only.
The question whether I'm able to grasp my mouse with my eyes closed is wholly different from the question if I'm able to grasp it from a hundred meters distance.

Just my two sans worth.

KR,
Theodorus



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 November 2005, 13:03:00
First of all the Sphere Definitions on the site lack stuff, that's why there are still problems with people trying to figure out what's Sphere I, II and III. I try to make it easier for everyone, but people fail to notice that quite obviously.

It's not really the "line of sight" for me that is important. You can cast a wind spell in the dark as well if the wind is there. But the element you want to focus on cannot be somewhere else.

(And now I really have to get to something more important.)


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Theodorus Holzman on 15 November 2005, 13:03:00
Quote:
The thing is about focussing. If you have nothing to focus on you cannot cast a spell - at least not with elemental magic. If you're a Xeuá or Ecuá mage you target links within the target and/or with the universal fabric of time and space in even higher levels, but this is all a totally different kind of magic. You cannot cast elemental spells into nowhere.


But it's not not there, it's just not visible, that's something entirely different. Or do you want to imply that all Ximax magic would be invalid, because one cannot see ounia. Or that clerical magic is invalid because one cannot see a God?

I mean, if a mage can work with ounia-links that are essentially too small to be visible to the human eye, this mage probably has developed a certain magical sense of detecting these magical elements. Thus, if his detection of these magical elements does not depend on visual abilities, why would the non-visibility of an object be such a great problem?

KR,
Theodorus



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 November 2005, 13:15:00
See answer above, posted at the same time as you did.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Theodorus Holzman on 15 November 2005, 13:39:00
Well, "somewhere else" is a rather vague definition. For if "somewhere else" does nót depend on line of sight, on what does it depend?
It's of course only reasonable to assume you cannot lift objects that are 100 strals away, however, to adress the question this all began with: Why is wind around a corner dubbed as "somewhere else", and wind at the same distance in front of you not?

And about the clarifications concerning the Spheres. Well, to me it seems the confusions linger because simply stating that the definitions are X instead of Y without explaining this sudden change in definitions will not clarify things much.

KR,
Theodorus



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 November 2005, 14:08:00
a) As air is everywhere on the globe would you say that the air 2 meters in front of me is directly connected to the Fidji islands's air? If so, I could cast a spell on the Fidji islands from here. A direct connection needs to be made somehow, the mage's aura if you so want needs to be able to reach the focus.
b) I don't re-define magic, I complement existing stuff.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Theodorus Holzman on 15 November 2005, 15:16:00
You didn't answer my question, Art. You only answered a question you raised yourself. Please do not assume I say things which I don't.

My question didn't concern itself with air being connected from here to the Fidji islands. I don't recall mentioning a connection anywhere in my previous post.
Rather, I asked you what was the difference between air at two meters distance within the line of sight, and air at two meters distance hidden from view.
As you are obviously the one who sees a enormous difference there, you should be able to explain it.

Secondly, I think a mage has the ability to "detect" magical elementary particles within a given radius, which increases with te mage's skill. That would be the natural boundary to any range of a spell being cast by this particular mage. However, such an ability to detect magical particles is in no way necessarily linked to the mage's eyesight.

Bottom line is, you raised an issue concerning a spell that was supposedly too difficult because the affected wind-target was nót within the line of sight of the caster. And though the analogy with the  supermarket and/or the Fidji islands might be interesting, it does not adress the problem fully, or correctly. Repeating the analogy won't change that.

And about redefining magic. Well, adding to a definition could be seen as redefining, but that's of course another matter. What is important though, is that your new approach to the Sphere's is quite different from the approach currently taken on the site. Instead of approaching it from the elementary side, you now approach it from a more practical-restrictive side. And though I do not necessarily see this as a bad thing, it dóes spread confusion.
Moreover, you have also not yet explained why this complementation of the Sphere-system was necessary. Apart from the fact that it supports your current position, but that's no valid argument/reason.

KR,
Theodorus



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 November 2005, 14:47:00
"I asked you what was the difference between air at two meters distance within the line of sight, and air at two meters distance hidden from view."

That you cannot establish direct auratic contact. If there's a fire burning two meter in front of you, but you are seperated by a one meter thick wall so you don't even sense it - why should you be able to manipulate this fire? How would you focus? Why should one be able to focus at all? Is it helpful that one can focus in this case?


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 11/14/05 21:47


Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Theodorus Holzman on 15 November 2005, 16:12:00
So what you actually infer here, is that to establish auratic contact requires visual perception of the target.

I still do not see the reason for this. Why would magical perception be bound by visual perception? If the wall would, for instance, made of glass, but still be one meter thick, would you then be able to manipulate the fire?

After all, this whole Ximaxian theory is built from the hypothesis that everything is made of car'all, consisting of ounia held together by Xeuá links.
Now, I ask you, what is, on this magical level, the difference between one meter of air between a fire mage and a fire, and one meter of earth (as in a brick wall). For, as a fire mage, I am able to detect fire-ounia at a few peds away even if there's air (wind-ounia) in the way.
You place yourself, and us, in a box by maintaining that there is a fundamental difference between certain ounia, that disable magical perception. But this box is based on the idea that magical perception should be connected to ordinary perception, which, IMHO, it should not be, as I see no reason to maintain such a distinction.

Your view is analogous to maintaing that it would matter at a microcosmic level what properties a certain group of particles has at a macrocosmic level. E.g. maintaining that at microcosmic level sand is fundamentally different from glass, because you can look through glass, and not through sand. While at the microcosmic level, the differences are not at all that fundamenal. And this microcosmic level is, necessarily, where the mage is operating.

KR,
Theodorus



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 November 2005, 16:23:00
I'm out.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 16 November 2005, 16:55:00
Quote:
For, as a fire mage, I am able to detect fire-ounia at a few peds away even if there's air (wind-ounia) in the way.

I've got a question. Can mages actually detect ounia? They are an artificial way of describing things and by imagining the changes happening to the ounia a mage can cast a spell, but can they actually feel 'real' ounia?

If not that would explain why you need to see the targetted area (for some spells maybe other senses could used like feeling or hearing) because you can't focus on something you don't percieve.



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Theodorus Holzman on 16 November 2005, 17:06:00
Well, I don't know exactly, I'm no magic expert.

However, as far as I know, most theories are formed to explain certain fenomena that have been empirically detected/explored. Thus, a theory involving such elementary particles such as ounia and the like would only come into existence if mages had some reason to invent such a theory. And that reason would, IMHO, mos probably be that they somehow detect these ounia/elemental links.

Also, to use Art's own explanation. You cannot manipulate something you cannot detect. Thus, if a fire-mage manipulates fire-ounia, he needs to be, at some basic level, aware of them.

KR,
Theodorus (who awaites response of the Magic Masters here)



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 16 November 2005, 18:08:00
As I see it, mage can't detect ounia by any "sixt sense", but we have spells that allow you to see car'all. As for the rest, if you can't see something it would take more skill to still be able to directly manipulate it with magic (cast a spell, what this debate has been about), thus pointing to an increase in level. Of course, this raises the question of being able to affect anything anywhere, but that is adressed by magical reach. Magical reach would be that magic from a caster has a reach, depending on the spell (Range column in the spell) and level. This is "logical" because magic in caelereth cannot eschew distance, teleporting etc. isn't allowed. All this IMHO, of course.  



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 27 November 2005, 16:40:00
I've always assumed thatounia cannot be felt.  If they could, the case for the Ximaxian theories being correct becomes a lot stronger.  Not a good thing, since we want there to be as much doubt about Ximaxian theories being wrong as there are about other magic theories.  I always figured that they got the theories from the elves (though they then developed it further themselves), and figured that since it works, it's probably right, or at least not too far off.  

As for 'direct auratic contact', what does that mean?  Actual contact between the car'alls?  Why?  
If direct contact is needed, I don't see how spells can have range at all, unless it's say, in the form of a projectile, like a fireball spell, and even then, the projectile cannot manifest anywhere besides where the mage is.  Quite limiting, it seems.  

And will someone look at the spell before coming back to the magic discussion?  I've already changed some of the stuff that sparked off this debate in the first place, and I want to know if there are any more changes that should be made.  The debate can continue after the entry has been approved.  




Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 30 November 2005, 14:16:00
- "Auratic contact": Manipulation of the target/focussing on something needs to be possible, not physical contact or something. With an earth-dominated wall between caster and target/focus I assume you'll have difficulties manipulating the fire behind that structure (and no idea how you'd focus that, but I said that before). Line of sight works mostly very well, simply because wind/air is the most flexible element in your way if you target something.

Back to the spell:

- "Air can be seen as Wind that is being still." still bothers me, because in the - so far unwritten - Wind entry we'll have to define Wind as movement as opposed to Earth, so I wouldn't state it that drastically. Passage only needs small amendments.

- "At the same time, she takes some sand..." Seems our mages are now mainly female... :lol

- "The target is simply the area where the caster wishes the wind to be, which could be around herself, or some distance away." You should make a difference between "target" and "focus", we've been very loose with these terms. I guess this is also something we should perhaps update at our spells scheme and say "Focus/Target". The focus doesn't necessarily need to be the target (see e.g. Fireball spell). The focus is where the magical action takes place, while the effect can affect targets as well. Here the caster would focus on a spot in the air, and the resulting wind would e.g. envelop the mage as the "targeted" person with the wind drawn from the focus.

- You also should mention that the focus is the air - you don't mention that.

- Rest sounds ok as already stated a while ago, you can add the integration arrow already. Would recommend in general though to mark changed passages with another colour to make it easier for commenters to see where there were modifications.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 01 December 2005, 00:21:00
Quote:
"Air can be seen as Wind that is being still." still bothers me, because in the - so far unwritten - Wind entry we'll have to define Wind as movement as opposed to Earth, so I wouldn't state it that drastically. Passage only needs small amendments.

Changed it somewhat.  Hopefully that would do.  

Quote:
"At the same time, she takes some sand..." Seems our mages are now mainly female...

Well, it's shorter than typing 'he or she', and I was feeling lazy, and most people use 'he' already anyway, so...

Quote:
"The target is simply the area where the caster wishes the wind to be, which could be around herself, or some distance away." You should make a difference between "target" and "focus", we've been very loose with these terms. I guess this is also something we should perhaps update at our spells scheme and say "Focus/Target". The focus doesn't necessarily need to be the target (see e.g. Fireball spell). The focus is where the magical action takes place, while the effect can affect targets as well.

Okay, I guess I get the difference between target and focus now, though I've always used 'target' for 'focus'.  I not sure we really need two separate terms anyway, since in cases where the target and focus are different, the target usually does not have to be specified anyway.  Fireball, for example, can be tarageted at just about anything, so it's rather pointless to state what it can target and what it can't anyway.  
Quote:
Here the caster would focus on a spot in the air, and the resulting wind would e.g. envelop the mage as the "targeted" person with the wind drawn from the focus.

This part is a little confusing to me.  To have the effect cover an area, rather than just a single point, isn't it necessary to focus on the entire region instead of a point in that region?  
Quote:
You also should mention that the focus is the air - you don't mention that.

I assumed it'd be rather obvious that if you want the spell to affect air, you're going to be focusing on the air, but I'll add that in.  
Quote:
Would recommend in general though to mark changed passages with another colour to make it easier for commenters to see where there were modifications.

I didn't know that was the usual practice here.  I usually find very colourful posts to be rather hard to read, so I didn't do that to make it easier on your eyes.  Changed too.  




Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 01 December 2005, 16:40:00
"He or she" - just write it gender neutral like "the mage" - that's what I usually do... :biggrin

I guess the target/focus thing adds a good specification. We haven't made the distinction yet, but I guess it helps with explaining. For example with the "confusing part" you mention: A focus would always be a point methinks. Typical case here. At this point the energies would be "focussed", drawn to it, so that an area around this focus generates an effect. In this case the mage "tells" the focus: pull wind to this point, and thus an area around this point becomes windy. A spot is the focus, the target is the area affected by the spell working through the focus.

Coloured posts: Yup, we do that now in general, simply because it makes changed things much easier to find:)  No need to make it all extremely colourful, but seeing the differences has its advantages for commenters.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 01 December 2005, 16:46:00
Arti: Would it necessarily be a point? Either a point or an object I'd say - after all, if you want to levitate a rock, you would focus on the rock, not on a certain point - so I don't see a problem with focussing on objects too.



Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 01 December 2005, 16:46:00
Uhm, pull wind to a point?  Wouldn't that make it sphere 3, or st least sphere 2?  I thought hat for sphere 1 you would be altering the links within the entire area, making the whole area thefocus.  




Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 01 December 2005, 17:03:00
@Silfer: "Point" can be an "object" as well, yup.

@Mina: Well, a focus is a handle, something to grip on, a channel to exert one's powers. Might be that you grip an area here in this case as an "object" and treat it that way, no problem with that. The thing is that an element outside the focus can be affected within a certain radius of the focus. What I described would indeed fit better to another spell. Just leave it that way, and let's take into account that a focus can also be an object or an area, but that the effect can go beyond the focus.


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Title: Re: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)
Post by: Mina on 01 December 2005, 17:38:00
Gee, I made a lot of typos in my last post.  Anyway, one last question.  How and why can the effect go beyond the focus?  I still don't get that.  

Now that this spell is done, I'm going to see if I can think up another one.  Hopefully I'll have something ready to show you guys by the come I'm back again in a couple of days.  :)