Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Magic in the Lands of Caelereth => Topic started by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 29 May 2006, 07:30:00



Title: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 29 May 2006, 07:30:00
Note: Drasil and Orril requested that I post this little summary I prepared for Renakroz here. Should we make it sticky?

BTW I am still working on that "Magic for Newbies" guide Twen asked... Currently: procrastinating... Maybe I'll have a version I'm satisfied with by the end of the summer!

Note: If there's anything else you want included in this guide, post below! Adding a silver bard per request might help speed up the procedure!




Magic for Beginners

by Silfer & Coren


GIST


SYSTEM:
The Ximaxian system is the secular, scientific study of magic (in the Santharian kingdom of the Sarvonian continent), interpreting the world through (the angles of) the four elements: Wind, Water, Earth, Fire. Ximaxian magic (excluding Raw Magic) revolves principally around the content of the Carall, the universal aura, and its manipulation. This view is very flexible - very few things are impossible per definition of the system. Magic-users are limited by means: A fire mage cannot extinguish a fire by conjuring up water. However, he can extinguish by manipulating the flame itself for instance. Thus, the system is not necessarily limited in ends – except the individual limitations of the casters.


CARALL:
Ximaxian mages believe in the existence of the universal aura (Carall) as the essence of Creation. Although everything has a carall, some claim that recognition of individual carallia (this carall, that carall) is a simplification. A carall is the defining principle of an entity: the carall (aura) decides what a given object is, how it behaves etc.

The form of a carall is the underlying “Idea” of the object, which characterizes the concept the object belongs to. The form is what helps us identify different types of objects or group those sharing a lot of similarities together: For instance there are red fish, silver fish, blue fish with white stripes, long fish, stubby fish, salt-water fish, lake fish, big fish, small fish etc. but it is the Form of all these Caralls, the “Fish-Idea” (the idea of a fish), that enables us to identify all these creatures, despite their differences, as “fish”. Only Raw Magic can directly manipulate the Form of the Carall by e.g. substituting the idea of a “spoon” with the idea of an “egg” to transform a spoon into an egg.

The content of the carall consists of ounia and the links (“Xeua”) holding them together in the specific structure that defines, constitutes the given object. Ounia (singular: oun), the building blocks of the aura (and in fact all of Existence) come in four flavours: Fire, Wind, Water and Earth. Each oun is dedicated to and contains the characteristics of one of the four elements. Differences between objects as well as personalities – in fact almost all differences – arise from how many of what ounia there are (loosely speaking; ounia aren’t something one can count and should better be expressed as proportions in relation to the ounia of other elements present) and how they are linked in a carall.

Any particular carall typically contains all kinds of ounia, however the amount of each type (wind-water-earth-fire) may – and in fact, does – vary. For all practical purposes “foreign” ounia in the physical manifestation of an element are negligible. Thus, the “avatars” of the elements (e.g. the water of a raindrop is an avatar of the Element of Water) are assumed to be “pure”.


MAGIC:
A change in the aura reflects as a change (which can be physical, spiritual or in some cases both) in the object/being. By altering a carall, a mage can affect a change in the actual presence represented by that carall. This (sometimes called the “Mirror Principle”) is the basis of all magic according to the Academy of Ximax.

Ximaxian magic (excluding Raw Magic) is achieved by manipulating the ounia and the links between them. A mage of one element manipulates the ounia of that element, while Xeua (link-making) and Ecua (link-breaking) mages typically manipulate the links and are therefore able to directly affect more than one element in the carall. (Xeua and Ecua mages can also manipulate the ounia, while elemental mages cannot directly manipulate links. Also, elemental mages can only affect their own element: A water mage for example can only manipulate water ounia)

Will is the primary tool through which a Ximaxian mage modifies the carall – and thus “casts magic”.




Essential entries you want to read:
- Magic in the World of Caelereth
- Carall
- Schools of Magic
- The individuals entry of the elemental school you wish to focus on. For instance: The School of Water




To be added:
- Physical & Spiritual representation
- Further Reading list
- raw magic (remove!)

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 6/7/06 21:27


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Kalína Dalá'isyrás on 29 May 2006, 09:58:00
Well, it certainly isn't only for Renakroz, as those who suggested it could also greatly benefit from the information which it contains.

Looks good Coren I am no real magic expert so the information in the write-up is not my place to comment on. ;)

I will such to Mina, Marvin, Twen, and Silfer



The Santharian Dream ~ Role Playing Basics
Character Creation Guide ~ Restrictions and Age Calculator



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 29 May 2006, 14:55:00
Looks good to me - nice, Coren.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 29 May 2006, 18:27:00
Can we make this sticky??? we must make it sticky, is the best guide I've seen arround here, this and Silfer 101

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 30 May 2006, 01:09:00
This IS the "Silfer 101"! Only Corenized a bit



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 30 May 2006, 01:37:00
Very wonderful start here Coren! "Magic for Dummies" will most likely be the most useful entry to of ever reached the magic forum IMHO. A small overview of Spiritual and Physical representations might be useful as well. Not an elaborate description of all these things but a general overview of what defines their catagorizations might be helpful. Since these representations are part of each of the elemental schools. Keep up the good work hun.:hug  

(¯`·._†he §pe££ ƒe££ Üpon the Çrowd £ike a Ðragon, Åncient and ƒu££ oƒ Ðeath_.·´¯)
.·´`·.Character Creation Help.·´`·.

Edited by: Twen  Araerwen  at: 5/29/06 9:38


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 30 May 2006, 04:05:00
I like it really - my only concern is, that more people than now think from now on wrongly, that they understand Caelereth magic ! ;)

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 02 June 2006, 12:49:00
Edited... for further explanation see here, second post from top of page.

Edited by: Ysuran Auondril at: 6/3/06 18:09


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Kalína Dalá'isyrás on 02 June 2006, 17:44:00
This keeps it simple - the spheres delve into the more complex aspect which doesn't necessarily need an "overview", perhaps in the more formal write-up, as I believe there is another one coming?



The Santharian Dream ~ Role Playing Basics
Character Creation Guide ~ Restrictions and Age Calculator



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 02 June 2006, 17:47:00
Yeah, there is, or at least I hope so.  I'm counting on it to replace my guide in the RPG board.  (And, yes, I'm lazy that way.  :pet  )

By the way, I suggest not mentioning raw magic.  It's from really long ago, and I don't think it's in the magic system anymore.  


Edited by: Mina Aylwin at: 6/2/06 1:48


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 03 June 2006, 08:44:00
Edited... for further explanation see here, second post from top of page.

Edited by: Ysuran Auondril at: 6/3/06 18:10


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 03 June 2006, 09:16:00
IMHO Raw magic must deal with time... It doesen´t overpowers, and let the things alredy writen well.

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 03 June 2006, 09:44:00
Well, in theory, if a xeua mage and an ecua mage of enough power were working together, I think they could completely alter a car'all, and since the car'all of an object pretty much determines what it is, they could alter what the object is.  But, yes, raw magic is really old, and I'm not sure where it could possibly go now, since it was meant to be the magic of the Weavers, and the rewrite Rayne did changed them enough that it wouldn't really fit anymore.  




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 04 June 2006, 13:43:00
Ysuran you deleted your brother's posts before I had a chance to read them! I don't know what I missed - does anyone remember what was said?



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 04 June 2006, 13:45:00
:: sulks ::

I really like the concept of Raw magic directly altering Form...

:: pouts ::

:: sad puppy eyes NOONE can resist ::



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 04 June 2006, 14:39:00
*Tries in vain to resist the immensely strong powers of the dreaded puppy eyes, but alas...* :broadgrin
Coren - basically what he was saying was that Weavers were possessed of too much power because they could actually alter the true nature of items to change their existential forms.  He also suggested that the formal write-up contain simple descriptions of the Spheres and their functions and purposes.  
Now, I don't claim to be an expert on Santharian magic (like he did... grr...) but I understand the general concepts involved and would like to learn more so that I can take a bigger part in these magical theory discussions than just repeating what my Coór-darned brother said.  IMHO, it is a rather powerful ability to be able to alter something's true nature through manipulation of the cár'áll itself, but I guess this could be supported by saying that Weavers are extremely rare and use their powers only when the situation severely demands it?  All you magi out there, correct me if I'm wrong...

Edited by: Ysuran Auondril at: 6/3/06 22:41


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 04 June 2006, 14:45:00
Weavers may be extinct, away in another dimension, or been transformed by Rayne but they are not the only ones who use Raw Magic!

@Ysuran: Raw mages are extremely rare - it's more like a god(s)-given talent. Not even the most gifted mages of the Academy reproduce - or imo even truly understand - raw magic. See the general entry on the magic of Caelereth



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 04 June 2006, 15:14:00
Once again, I do not claim to be an expert; I was merely relaying what my brother said.  
Quick question on my part, though - if raw magic is a god(s)-given talent, then is it closer to clerical magic or the power of faith than it is to the secular science of elemental magic?  



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 04 June 2006, 16:20:00
its closer to to Ximaxian magic because, despite the fact it is given by the gods, using it does not require their assistance.  In clerical magic(at least in my understanding) you are able to do something because the god does it through you.  While in Raw magic you are able to do it yourself.

Drasil Razorfang CD



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 05 June 2006, 03:44:00
Don't forget that having a beautiful voice is also a god-given talent! That is the sense I used the term (ie "ability"), didn't mean to suggest a clerical approach.

Raw Magic is neither close to Ximaxian nor clerical magic. "Raw Magic" as I understand it simply describes a type of magic which achieves its effects by directly altering the Form of the Carall. If you do read the entries - and I hope you have done so already Drasil before posting so many spells everyday!- you will see that Raw Magic is not taught in the Academy. Hence, "Raw Magic" is not part of the "Ximaxian system".

Clerical magic can sometimes achieve the effects of raw magic - that of directly altering the Form of something - indirectly. Now what does this mean? That when a cleric "casts magic" (ie prays to his deity for help) he does not have "altering the Form of a carall" in mind as his purpose. Imho he would just have the desired effect (eg turning sand to flour) in mind and due to the power of his faith or divine intervention that is achieved. What happened here is that sand transformed into flour because the Idea of Sand around which that object (the sand) was constituted was substituted with the Idea of Flour. So directly altering the Form of something - ie raw magic - was achieved in an indirect way. But keep in mind that not all effects achieved by clerical magic are raw magic effects! In fact these would be only very very very rare occurences




Also, can I request that you only focus on what needs to be changed in or added to the guide in this thread? Otherwise it just gets crowded and people lose track of the actual discussion.  



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 05 June 2006, 21:22:00
IMHO you should add a Corenized explanation on Raw Magic.

Now, that change of the form makes the Raw mage shapeshifters, and lets them to transform things in whatever they want... That's really overpowerful.

I have a question... Raw Mages can alter the time or no magic can do that? If no magic can do that... should we create Time Magic?

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 05 June 2006, 22:43:00
That's a somewhat old entry, Coren.  I've not even referred to it for ages.  In any case, if it isn't part of the Ximaxian system, as you said, then what's it doing in an explanation of Ximaxian magic?  

Anyway, yes, if raw magic still exists, it's a separate magic system, nothing to do with the Ximaxians.  Lets leave that for some other time.  As for directly altering the form of something, well, I did say above that xeua and ecua used together could in theory achieve it.  Xeua and ecua are the most powerful forms of Ximaxian magic, and as far as I know, there's pretty much nothing that can't be done if they're used together.  




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 06 June 2006, 12:16:00
Time travel??? I still whant to know a magical explanation of time...

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 06 June 2006, 14:32:00
No time travel. Time travel is not possible by Ximaxian magic. Time btw is one of those things that don't need explaining IMHO. I mean, it's not like we have any real explanation for it (other then just calling it the 4th dimention which is hardly something you can imagine).

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

Need help with your new Character?
~> Click Here <~

Edited by: Marvin Cerambit  at: 6/5/06 22:33


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 08 June 2006, 10:31:00
You can alter the Form VERY significantly (i would even say completely) with Xeua and Ecua working together but that is not a 'direct' alteration of the Form imho. (theoretically) You alter the structure by breaking some links and forming new ones so drastically that the new structure represents a different "idea" (making fish into a bird?). So as a result you have managed to change the form completely.

And yes, you are right... It doesn't make sense to include a section on Raw Magic here. I'll just twist the explanation along these lines: "Although theoretically direct substitution of the Form of  a carall is able to (...) ,no part of the ximaxian system deals with or is able to perform these kind of manipulations."

I just want to keep some of it there (though not titling it Raw magic and saying noone can do such things) to explain what the Form stands for and why it is needed.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 08 June 2006, 17:56:00
The way we are discussing it, Raw magic is starting to sound more and more like an advanced form of Euca and Xeua.

Drasil Razorfang CD



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 09 June 2006, 03:05:00
No, two totally different concepts. We don't classify magic schools according to the effects they produce but the "how", the way they do achieve those effects.

Anyway, let's leave Raw Magic out for now not to clutter this thread.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 10 June 2006, 04:40:00
I think you'd better explain what this Form and Idea thing is, Coren.  I don't think I quite get what you were trying to say.  




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 10 June 2006, 08:12:00
Form: Physical reflection of the idea.

Idea: The full concept of an object (i.e a metal chair of X * Y color Z)

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 10 June 2006, 09:17:00
I don't think that your definition works Orril for ideas are not always true.  You should add a disclamer word to say to that definition before you use it Coren to say that and idea is possible, but not always correct.

Drasil Razorfang CD



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 10 June 2006, 09:38:00
Orril you are totally, completely off the mark. :: sigh ::

It seems I am not doing such a great job at the explanations afterall... I need to think on it for sometime to come up with a better way of clarifying the issue. If you are familiar with philosophy the "Form" is actually very similar to Plato's "Idéa" concept - that is why I keep capitalizing Idea (to connote that I use the word in a specific context as a 'term')

@Drasil: I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't understand that post.


(Magic of Caelereth)
Quote:
We've learned that the appearances of the Cár'áll (the elemental parts, see above) are different from the Cár'áll itself. The appearance of an object is its content, seemingly - but the content can only exist through the form. A table only appears as a piece of furniture because it is shaped like a table and thus represents the idea of a table. If the idea, the "soul" of the table (the Cár'áll) wouldn't exist and identify an object as a table the object would simple be a combination of wooden elements. The Cár'áll is form. It's the bag we spoke of before where you can put in things.

We have also seen that Elemental Mages modify the quality of the Cár'áll: the Fire Element, the Wind Element etc. and can make something e.g. more stable, or lighter, so that it flies.

Xeuá mages connect or seperate things, e.g. a typical Xeuá mage would be a healer who can make a wound heal faster. I choose this example, because the accelaration of the healing of a wound is something quite obvious, but of course there are several more ways to use Xeuá magic which are not that easy to follow.

A Raw Mage on the other hand goes directly for the form of the Cár'áll and therefore can do much more powerful magic. If you are capable of modifying the form itself, you could e.g. make the bag of our example much smaller, allowing only a certain limit of elemental affinities within an object. You can make something/someone more or less powerful without altering his elemental parts or the connections between them directly. Extremely powerful Raw Magic may not only reduce or improve the Cár'áll of an object (e.g. change a "large table" to a "small table", a "blue one" to a "white one" by altering its Cár'áll etc.), but can also substitute the Cár'áll, e.g. convert a table to a chair




EDIT 2: I also found a wonderful quote from Dasson (this very old so you might not be able to find it on the forums)

Quote:
Xeua is not form. It is connection. Raw is form. A raw mage goes for the way things are set up in the connection. Say you have a bridge connecting two pieces of land. An elemental mage can make one piece of land grow larger, or shrink, or whatever. A Xeua mage can make the bridge longer or shorter, or create a new bridge to another island somewhere else. An Ecua mage can destroy bridges. A Raw mage on the other hand can change what island is at what end of the bridge, what shape the islands adn bridges form etc. The former, the chaning what island is at what end, is how a raw mage manipulates the form of something, changing human to bird, by substituting the Idea of Human with the Idea of Bird.


Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 6/10/06 8:52


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 10 June 2006, 10:29:00
@ Coren, I was just taking Orril's very confusing thing and making it more confusing by adding a disclamer.  Sorry.

Drasil Razorfang CD



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 10 June 2006, 11:45:00
Maybe everybody reading this and discussing schould read Plato's concept of the "Idea", for as I understand it, it was the underlying concept when Art wrote the stuff.  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 10 June 2006, 11:46:00
huh... I thought that was correct, at least that's what I learned in logic this year (or it was something like that... just very extense...)

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 10 June 2006, 20:47:00
Yeah, perhaps I should try reading some Plato first.  I'll see if I can find anything useful on Wikipedia later.  

For now, Coren, the stuff you quoted from the entry isn't very helpful.  It seems to be saying that a car'all is something like a bag, into which you put ounia and xeua links to tell it what it represents.  Not only does this seem rather weird, it also doesn't resolve the issues that led me (and probably Rayne too) to come up with the "there is really only one car'all" thing.  Firstly, you would have a situation of having car'alls within car'alls within car'alls.  Consider a human.  It'd have a car'all of its own...but then, so does each of its internal organs, his blood, and whatever other stuff is in there.  And then there's the problem with things like the atmosphere or the ocean or the ground.  They can't all be one giant car'all, can they?  Were that the case, a mage would probably have a lot of trouble doing anything with them.  Then again, the quoted stuff was written in a pretty confusing manner, so I might just not be getting it.  




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 10 June 2006, 21:56:00
IMHO There is only one Car'all, but humans and other sentient creatures could not truly envision something of this magnitude. Hence they think of smaller objects as a Car'all of its own, though more than likely this is but a piece of the overall construction.

This idea would be like a human of today trying to truly fathom the depths of infinity. Could they get an idea of it .... I would think. But most assuredly alot of the details are missing as it is infinite. A human trying to understand the vastness of the Car'all would be left in a similiar state. Too much to fully comprehend, no matter the intellect of the thinker. Just look at the plethora of magics based upon this single concept and we often say that such magics are infinite. This only gives more grounds to the vastness of the Car'all and its uses.

To my understanding all things are linked within the Car'all no matter how remotely or miniscule. This in and of itself shows that it is indeed one singular thing. I don't see how you could ponder if a mage could influence something this large Mina. The mage does not influence the entire Car'all but only the most minute of its pieces, ounia. Even then it is only one of the four types of the smallest pieces.

Humans, elves, plants, bugs and the tiniest of rocks are nothing more than various ounia (The smallest pieces of the Car'all) influencing one another to form what they are. Is it complex ... yes. But you are also discussing a magical phenom. that has basically formed all things seen and unseen over the expanse of a world.

My above comments are not meant as an offense to anyone and some or not all of it may be my opinions. Though they are opinions in which I use to view things concerning Car'all, ounia and the Santharian world as a whole.

(¯`·._†he §pe££ ƒe££ Üpon the Çrowd £ike a Ðragon, Åncient and ƒu££ oƒ Ðeath_.·´¯)
.·´`·.Character Creation Help.·´`·.

Edited by: Twen  Araerwen  at: 6/10/06 6:06


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 10 June 2006, 23:58:00
But then you are going away from the idea of the "Idea", and how would you then define "raw magic", the altering of the "Idea"? For I would very much like to keep that model for the clerical magic in the way, Coren described it above. How do you then differ between the "one carall" and the carall of a single individuum? Is all merging together? Is an entity just a assembly of ounia hold together with links? What then about the differences between tables of different sizes and appearance, but nevertheless tables and tables and chairs?

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 11 June 2006, 02:20:00
Oh, goodness, the stuff on Wikipedia confuses me even more than the stuff that's been mentioned in this thread.  I'll see if I can find anything more useful.  

Meanwhile, I think I'd also try to write up something concerning my views about car'all and such.  It's probably time I got around to doing something like that anyway.  




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 11 June 2006, 02:28:00
You know what, I should be getting some more free time in a few weeks. I'll see if I can start something as well.

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

Need help with your new Character?
~> Click Here <~



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 11 June 2006, 02:34:00
Considering the rate at which I do stuff, I won't be surprised if it takes a few weeks for me to write it.  :lol  




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 11 June 2006, 05:00:00
Quote:
But then you are going away from the idea of the "Idea", and how would you then define "raw magic", the altering of the "Idea"? Could not the "Idea" be defined as the Car'all and the altering of groups of ounia only changing parts of the overall idea? A complex idea often has a complex set of components. For I would very much like to keep that model for the clerical magic in the way, Coren described it above. How do you then differ between the "one carall" and the carall of a single individuum? Is all merging together? As all ounia are linked in someway within the Car'all IMHO, then yes I would say they are merged to an extent. Is an entity just a assembly of ounia hold together with links? Well as an Ecua mage would only have to break the links down in a person to basically unmake them ... so yeah. What then about the differences between tables of different sizes and appearance, but nevertheless tables and tables and chairs? Alterations in the overall Car'all done by the hands of a person, people do this all the time with the simple act of breathing.

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Edited by: Twen  Araerwen  at: 6/10/06 13:10


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 11 June 2006, 09:04:00
I don't agree with many of the concerns voiced. I will respond in full detail later this weekend. Just posting to let you know I've noticed the queries



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 11 June 2006, 13:56:00
Sorry for maybe asking stupid questions, for I can not say yet, that I have a grasp on all that magical stuff.  


Quote:
But then you are going away from the idea of the "Idea", and how would you then define "raw magic", the altering of the "Idea"? Could not the "Idea" be defined as the Cár'áll and the altering of groups of ounia only changing parts of the overall idea? A complex idea often has a complex set of components.
„Idea“ as the „one Cár'áll“? That is going pretty far away from the original concept, do we want this? Raw magic as an alteration of the form itself would be non-existent.  How do you then define the individual, where is its border, if you take this „bag“ away?


For I would very much like to keep that model for the clerical magic in the way, Coren described it above. How do you then differ between the "one cár'áll" and the cár'áll of a single individual? Is all merging together? As all ounia are linked in someway within the Cár'áll IMHO, then yes I would say they are merged to an extent.
The same question here again, how does the individual differ from the „one cár'áll“ - it is part of it, but how can I differ one from the other? Is the sum of all „parts“ the whole, or is it more?

Is an entity just a assembly of ounia hold together with links? Well as an Ecua mage would only have to break the links down in a person to basically unmake them ... so yeah. What then about the differences between tables of different sizes and appearance, but nevertheless tables and tables and chairs? Alterations in the overall Cár'áll done by the hands of a person, people do this all the time with the simple act of breathing.
I don‘t understand this last sentence.

My last question is  - are we true to what is on the site and how the concept was intended to be? We are very careful  in other realms to respect what is written down, though of course some things have to be altered.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 11 June 2006, 14:35:00
I am trying to remain as faithful to Arti's original design as possible when writing the guides (I have been cross-referencing all the discussion dating back to the times when the entries were first drafted as well as the relevant theory on the site). And I must express my agreement with Talia very strongly on this point - I am very frustrated when I see that every two months what I thougth of as the fundamentals of the Ximaxian system change drastically. Anything not updated in the last seven weeks should not instantly become "outdated" and useless/incorrect overnight. That said, I do think some of the entries we have on the site are a lot more confusing than they have to be owing to obscure explanations and philosophical babble (but then I am the last person to be criticizing this!)

My next attempt would be an essay on the nature, concept, various meanings and implications of this mysterious thing we keep calling the Carall when we all have different definitions in mind. That should make my side/stand on the theory clear I hope. Remember: this should be a short reference guide only! Sort of an orientation

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 6/10/06 22:40


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 11 June 2006, 14:41:00
Also see the quote from Dasson I added to my quote-filled post above.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 11 June 2006, 15:28:00
Well... Idea could be what makes a Cár'áll diferent form the others Cár'áll, f.e the idea of a certain wind current makes it diferent from the whole currents system, though the ideas interact to make new things.

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 11 June 2006, 16:22:00
Coren, I think I've figured out what you meant by Forms, assuming they are more or less the same sort of things Plato talked about.  Still trying to figure out how this relates to car'all, and what place xeua and ounia have in such a system, but I think I should get there eventually.  Right now it looks like it'd be quite different from how I've always understood car'all to be though, which was rather more like molecules (but not physical, I must point out).  Hmm...I wonder if Ximax can handle having multiple competing theories around...




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 12 June 2006, 00:44:00
Well, in my head everything is explained differently, but it should be telling the same thing. More like molecules as Mina said (and no, not physical either :) ).

And I have been thinking about different theories as well, but imho that would probably not be the case. At least no large differences. The thing is, if you had different theories, then a mage following one kind of theorie would not be capable of following another. Unless it's on certain subjects (things like how does xx work) in which case you could have a couple.

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 12 June 2006, 02:55:00
Guys, this is not a new theory! I think your problem is that so far you've equated the concept of the Carall in your head with its Content... The form vs content has been there since the beginning - in fact it is the very basis of elven cosmology and hence Art's conception of Caelereth! Coor (the many) being the manifestation of the one Idea, Ava (the one)...

I am not backing on this one.




Quote:
The concepts of Santharian magic are strongly influenced by philosophical theories like Plato's idea scheme, later on continued by Kant etc., at least the way I described it. I take these things for granted, so sometimes explanations might not be as obvious to others as they are for me. So I try to make the aspect of relevance clearer here:
(Artimidor)

Artimidor on Plato & "Idea":
Quote:
Plato makes a difference between "idea" [also called "form"] and "shape" [that's of course only a rough English translation, in German philosphical terminology it would be "Gestalt"] . "Idea" is the archetypical design of a thing, which makes it obvious that it is a chair for example if you look on it. The idea of a chair only exists once, while there can be many chairs existing, which are very different, and still they point to the same idea.

(Elven mythology & Ximax)
In the same way the dichotomy between Avá and Coór was constructed and derived from that the elemental theory. Avá is spirit (wind), Coór is matter (earth), in between in the war of the elements the world develops. Fire and water as forces in between pulling in the two universal directions, towards wind or earth. While Avá is One, Coór's representations are manifold. While there is one spiritual idea, the appearances of this idea are manifold. One wind, many shapes of earth.

Shapes of a chair therefore are opposed to the one idea of the chair. And as such belong to the element of earth as the shape defines the earthly existence of a spiritual design.



The above I think defines the whole Form vs Content division and the reason for having it in the first place. Now Artimidor wrote this from a very elven perspective - so when he uses "wind" or "earth" or "fire/water" he does so as an elf would talk about these things (highly influenced by elven mythology).

The one thing I disagree with in Artimidor's theory is this direct importation of the elements from elven cosmology (what I've coloured in red). So while for an elven mage "One wind, many shapes of earth. Shapes of a chair therefore are opposed to the one idea of the chair as wind. And as such belong to the element of earth as the shape defines the earthly existence of a spiritual design" makes perfect sense, for a human mage that is incorrect terminology.

That is not how Ximax interprets the elements (eg. "form" is not represented by a single element (wind). Similarly "shape" - in the sense of being the physical manifestation of a one idea - is a reflection of the Content of the Carall. Therefore "shape" cannot be attributed to Earth alone but is rather a reflection of the carall's composition (the amount/quality of all four elements) and how that content is structured (Xeua links).

So if we basically reword that sentence as:
"One Idea, many variations of Content. Shapes of a chair (Content of the Carall: Substance + Structure) therefore are opposed to the one idea of the chair (the Form of the Carall: the "Chair Idea"

If we make that alteration everything quoted from Artimidor holds true here imo. And that is something I am not willing to cast off just because some think it is "outdated". Things aren't "outdated" because people stop referring to them and then in time this becomes a habit and the original concept is forgotten. If while studying advanced mathematical theory you forget all about the multiplication table that doesn't make 5x7=35 outdated or wrong.

The Carall simply CANNOT and should not be reduced to the sandcastle or lego examples. Seeing the carall only in terms of non-physical molecules ("ounia&links" model) is discarding Form. And if we get rid of this Form concept then we lose one of the most fundamental essences of the Ximaxian system. Having a Ximaxian theory without the Form-Content dichatomy is a degeneration I am simply not willing to accept. That is what gives the magic of our world its unique flavour and philosophical background

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 6/11/06 12:11


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 12 June 2006, 04:06:00
NOW i get it! Its Sophie's cookie parabel!

edit; For those who dont get the reference, this parabell demonstrates the difference and relation between Idea and Form by looking at cookies.

Quote:
Take a plate of cookies.. are they all the same? At first you might say 'yes', but im sure you will start noticing small differences soon.

Yet all of these cookies share the same mold that was used to create them. So, if you look at the cookies, can you see the shape of the mold?

The mold bears the Idea of Cookies, so while the actual Forms might differ slightly, they are all manifestations of the same Idea.

Miraran Tehuriden..

'What the hell is he doing?!' - Ximaxian Fire Master, last words.


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Edited by: Miraran Tehuriden at: 6/11/06 12:22


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 12 June 2006, 04:50:00
But please don't confuse the word "form" in "The mold bears the Idea of Cookies, so while the actual Forms might differ slightly, they are all manifestations of the same Idea." with the Form of the Carall. I use "Idea" and "Form" to mean more or less the same thing. The word form in that sentence actually refers to what I call as "manisfestations of a Form(Idea)"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 12 June 2006, 05:01:00
I have problems with this word "opposed" and its different meanings. It is not "antipodal, contrary, countering", but more like opposite? tho

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 12 June 2006, 06:16:00
I realised that Coren, but the text made more sense when using Form instead of Content ( the Content of a cookie? well, there's flour, and eggs, and milk, and .....)

Miraran Tehuriden..

'What the hell is he doing?!' - Ximaxian Fire Master, last words.


Feed the rats, leave a message!



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 12 June 2006, 06:58:00
Yes, I aimed that disclaimer at others who might begin reading the thread from the end backwards! (which I often do :|   )

To continue the cookie example though: What enables us to identify all those entities on the plate as cookies but not apricots is the "Cookie Idea". And it is this mould that gave the cookies their Form (carall sense).

The ingredients (eggs, flour, milk...) can be likened to the ounia of the four elemensts. The little differences you mentioned between the individual cookies result of course from the different realizations, "manifestions" of the Cookie Idea, the Form that is represented by the mould. Now why did you feel as if Content somehow wasn't the right word here? Simple: because all of those cookies were made from the same ingredients (same amount of the same types of ounia) so that (what you think of as being the 'content' of the carall) surely could not have been what caused the differences.

What you are missing here is that the Content isn't only about what is in there (the amount/quality and type of ounia) but also about how those are arranged. The differences therefore are due to Structure - the 'what is expressed and in which pattern'. That is the primary function of Xeua - and imo indeed why the elves see Xeua as the source of life ("the life giving element").

So summing up this post, we have:
* the Form which is the Idea (the archetypical design) an entity belongs to

and

*the Content = Substance (the 'What': ounia) + Structure (the 'How': connections)

The Content (Substance + Structure) cannot exist without the Form. So yes: while a table may appear to be just the assembly of "wood ounia" (of course we don't have wood ounia as wood itself is a specic arrangement of different ounia, but let's keep it for simplification) held together with links from an analytical perspective, there must be something else - an idea, a plan - that makes it a "table" and not some random collection of wooden parts. That plan is the Form.



@Talia: I cannot find the sentence you are referring to 8o  Can you quote it (in the same post you asked the question)?

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 6/11/06 15:00


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 12 June 2006, 10:21:00
I never said that I was discarding the Form & Content thingies. There seems there was a difference after all though. I always thought of the Form/Idea being the car'all (eg 'chair car'all') and Content being the actual physical representation (the actual chair).

I agree btw that Ximaxian mages will a have slightly different view from the elves. The four elements are more equal for them.


Edit:
I've been thinking. If Form isn't the car'all and how it's build, then how is it defined? And if Content isn't the actual physical counterpart, then how is the physical counter part defined? Having the car'all as From just makes more sense in my head.

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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Edited by: Marvin Cerambit  at: 6/12/06 23:23


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 13 June 2006, 23:08:00
Marvin I've defined all three of those both in the guide and in the subsequent quotes - are you sure you've read these? (Form - Content - Mirror Principle)

I will try to provide other definitions when I have time later



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 14 June 2006, 00:22:00
Well, I mostly don't see much difference between Form & Content, but it could be me of course. Roughly said, Form is an abstract idea of how something looks. Content is basically how car'all is build up, which is also an abstract description of how an object looks. It sounds very alike (or did I miss something?).

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Edited by: Marvin Cerambit  at: 6/13/06 8:23


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 14 June 2006, 00:29:00
Quote:
Guys, this is not a new theory!

Didn't say it was.  It might well be that you're just restating the original theory in a manner that is easier for us to understand, as you seem to think.  And, Marvin, I don't think the differences between the way we and Coren understand magic is great enough that a mage who follows one theory could do stuff one following the other theory could not.  The difference seems to mainly be in how the world is set up, rather than how magic itself is done.  

Quote:
Things aren't "outdated" because people stop referring to them and then in time this becomes a habit and the original concept is forgotten.

No, they become outdated when they stop making sense.  It could be that the original stuff had started being forgotten already when I started working on magic, because I certainly am not very familiar with the stuff you are talking about (which would mean that I did not learn magic properly), but it could also be that they had been discarded due to some flaws inherent in them.  Either way, things would probably become clearer when you finally present the theory in full so we could examine it.  

Now, I do not claim to have a very good understanding of Plato's theory of Forms, but from what I've read, it seems that he thinks there is a higher level of reality, or something of that sort, which contains the 'ideal form' of things, of which all things are reflections of.  To use your fish example, there exist a 'fish Form' of which all fishes in the world are 'reflections' of, and which enables them to be identified as fishes, despite all their differences.  I'm still trying to figure out where car'all might fit in a theory of this sort, but I'm guessing that the differences in each individual 'reflection' is the result of the different composition and arrangement of the ounia and xeua associated with each one, right?  This could be interesting.  Now the 'switching of Forms' actually make sense somewhat.  Like I said, I really would like to see the theory presented in full (not in this thread though, since this is supposed to be a beginner's guide), especially how you deal with the issues I mentioned earlier.  

Now, of course, as you know, I understand things a little different.  To keep with the terminology and examples we're using, I see each fish as having it's own unique Form, in a sense, which could be thought of as its car'all, I suppose.  So Fish A has one Form and Fish B another.  However, both car'allia are built in such a way that they can be identified as the car'allia of fishes.  Well, okay, perhaps the previous equating of Form with car'all is not so accurate.  It's more like each car'all of the same 'type' having a pattern that identifies it as being a car'all of that type.  As I understand it, Plato would be more likely to refer to this pattern as the Form.  However, I see the car'all as being the entity in a different level of reality, ie. the physical object is a reflection of the car'all, or that the car'all is a reflection of the physical object, or something like that.  It's hard to put into words.  However, I don't see this 'Form' as being some kind of separate entity, which the articles I read seem to suggest.  Instead, it's just a sort of pattern the car'all has.  This also means that direct alteration of Form is possible through a combination of xeua and ecua, as I had mentioned earlier in the thread, since the structure of the car'all could be altered to take on a different pattern.  




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 June 2006, 05:02:00
@Mina
Quote:
No, they become outdated when they stop making sense. It could be that the original stuff had started being forgotten already when I started working on magic, because I certainly am not very familiar with the stuff you are talking about (which would mean that I did not learn magic properly), but it could also be that they had been discarded due to some flaws inherent in them. Either way, things would probably become clearer when you finally present the theory in full so we could examine it.


I don't think, that these basics were ever abandonned or discarded, maybe not understood entirely or not taken into account. Being not overly fit in magic, but comming from the cosmology side - these are the basics the world is build on, as Coren pointed out.
Unfortunately I can't delve deeper in the matter just now, only having some minutes inbetween RL stuff.

@Marvin: Form/idea defines who you are, content describes your appearance. The content of something might be quite similar (what is the difference between a human and a tree, if you look at the materials (ounia, links) both are made of, it is the form /idea which gives you your identidy as a human.

Am I'm totally off now?

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 6/13/06 13:06


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 14 June 2006, 07:21:00
Quote:
And, Marvin, I don't think the differences between the way we and Coren understand magic is great enough that a mage who follows one theory could do stuff one following the other theory could not. The difference seems to mainly be in how the world is set up, rather than how magic itself is done.

That's not what I meant. I was looking more from a practical side, not 'what's possible', but 'what's convenient'. If one theory would have some discoveries/breaktroughs/whatever, it might not be useful in another one. Not to mention you might need different professors for each level & class for each of the theories.

Quote:
Form/idea defines who you are, content describes your appearance. The content of something might be quite similar (what is the difference between a human and a tree, if you look at the materials (ounia, links) both are made of, it is the form /idea which gives you your identidy as a human.

And car'all doesn't do this? I know what he means with Form/Idea, but just don't see much difference between that and car'all. Doesn't car'all descibes both who you are and how you look. Otherwise magic wouldn't be able to affect both appearance and emotions would it? Humans and a trees have completely different car'alls, explaining why they are completely different.

*thinks*

The only thing I could see that might not be descibed by car'all is 'life'. We can't turn a rock or a puddle of water into a living thing. So I guess that could fall under Form/Idea opposed to Content.

*goes off to think some more about it*

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 June 2006, 07:42:00
If I take the picture from the table, then carall doesn't desrcibe, how you look(your appearance), but who you are, for it is the "idea" of the cookie, but the cookies themselves can vary in appearance.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 14 June 2006, 10:23:00
:|  Owkay, I'm not following. Comparing tables, people and cookies in one sentence doesn't make things much clearer.

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 June 2006, 15:42:00
Indeed the things Coren quoted and doesn't like in this context about "One wind, many shapes of earth" is very elven, it's elven cosmology and not Ximaxian theory. And this should be quite clear to everyone who tries to understand the Ximaxian system. Don't know the context what I wanted to explain with that passage precisely, but of course you shouldn't take this "Cosmological Earth" (a universal principle) as earth ounía within a cár'áll for example.

To sum it up once more:
- There exists ONE idea how a cookie looks like (form)
- There exist MANY actual cookies, each cookie looks different, but if you see cookies you know that they are cookies because you recognize the idea, they are shaped (shape) like the form (idea). This actual representation of a general idea you could also call a "cár'áll", and this cár'áll is concrete because it is cookie-like.
- Cookies have ingredients, some are harder, some softer, some have nuts, some have more sugar. The ingredients you can see as the elements (fire, earth, wind, water), together they form a shape (cár'áll) and if you want another name for the ingredients, then call them "content".

A cookie therefore is a representation of the idea of a cookie with a shape (cár'áll) appearing cookie-like as its ingredients (contents) are ordered properly in the form of this idea.

Cár'áll to me is just something which needs shape but usually always exists in concrete shape. Cár'áll is possibility. Cár'áll - which for some might sound strange - I would also call "energy" BTW. The cár'áll entry refers to it as - surprise, surprise - "magical energy" or "aura". Maybe that could be made clearer.

This is the heart of Ximaxian magic. From that many other things derive or can be explained.

For example that Ecuá and Xeuá work on the Content level only, not on the Form level. If you have a cookie with chocolate keeping two parts together and you seperate these parts, then you have a two cookie parts. If you that on a plate you'd say: Hey, who has done this to the cookie? See? You still recognize the cookie, which is damaged. With Xeuá and Ecuá you cannot make a shoe out of a cookie, though. That's Weaving or Raw Magic, whatever you'd like to call it.

Also I saw that people ask if there's an idea of the universe and if there's a hierarchy of idea etc. - all typical Platonic questions. I would recommend to think about the fact that Ximaxian magic is strongly influenced by elven mythology and that it has its more or less hidden roots there. You could for example say that Avá is an idea and splits into further ideas (theologically speaking "The Thoughts of Avá"). Avá is still an idea, while everything else coming from her is also an idea etc. It doesn't make much sense counting ideas, but yes, it is all connected of course. In the "divine plan" if you so want all the ideas are there, the beings only need to recognize them as such - here lies also the connection to clerical magic: If you can sense the divine pattern then you can create something new through your will or more precisely: "the power of belief" (or "weave", which is quite similar). The Ximaxian mage however basically is restricted in his/her elemental boundaries, only the way of manipulation differs - and if you think it through to become perfect in getting to the heart of magic a Ximaxian mage first becomes an "elemental worker", then a Xeuátan, and finally... a monk:)    


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/13/06 23:52


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 14 June 2006, 17:20:00
Hooo... :worship  that's far easier than the thing they were holding in the other page.

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Sholtar on 14 June 2006, 21:59:00
Was just stopping by to see what progress was being made with magic, and saw this thread, so thought I'd put in my two cents.  First off, Mina mentioned, "It seems to be saying that a car'all is something like a bag, into which you put ounia and xeua links to tell it what it represents."  I guess this analogy isn't being used much anymore but I distinctly remember it being used, and quite extensively, when I first came to Santharia.  Whether or not this is still an accurate analogy, I don't know, but I thought the fact that it was once used might be of use.

Also, in terms of Raw Magic, it seems to me personally that Raw Magic is able to alter the car'all itself on a fundamental level.  This is the impression that I've always had.  Thus, there are extremely few Raw Mages in Caelereth, and those that exist are certainly unstable because their existence is so different from that of everyone else's.  As such, no players would be able to play a Raw Mage in my opinion.  This leads me to the idea of the universal car'all, and I think that there is indeed what seems to be a universal car'all, that is Ava.  However, that is not the same as what mages refer to as car'all, which are all the individual ideas within Ava's dream.  Thus, no mage would be able to do anything at all with the universal car'all, in fact they would not be able to so much as recognize its existence except in theory.

These are just my ideas and thoughts, they may be inaccurate, I don't know, but I don't think ideas can ever be detrimental ;-)



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 15 June 2006, 00:22:00
Quote:
Also I saw that people ask if there's an idea of the universe and if there's a hierarchy of idea etc. - all typical Platonic questions. I would recommend to think about the fact that Ximaxian magic is strongly influenced by elven mythology and that it has its more or less hidden roots there. You could for example say that Avá is an idea and splits into further ideas (theologically speaking "The Thoughts of Avá";) . Avá is still an idea, while everything else coming from her is also an idea etc. It doesn't make much sense counting ideas, but yes, it is all connected of course. In the "divine plan" if you so want all the ideas are there, the beings only need to recognize them as such - here lies also the connection to clerical magic: If you can sense the divine pattern then you can create something new through your will or more precisely: "the power of belief" (or "weave", which is quite similar). The Ximaxian mage however basically is restricted in his/her elemental boundaries, only the way of manipulation differs - and if you think it through to become perfect in getting to the heart of magic a Ximaxian mage first becomes an "elemental worker", then a Xeuátan, and finally... a monk

This last part brought a large smile on my face. Thanks! If I can stop procrastinating, hopefully you will soon see why!


I completely agree with Arti's views on this -except one tiny detail: I would also include "structure" (not only "the links" by themselves but the specific pattern - as dictated in general lines by the Form - in which they are connected) in Content. So content = substance (ingredients) + structure. Basically anything that is required for the individual realization of the Idea  



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 15 June 2006, 01:37:00
Ok, I get it now.

Still makes me wonder where the Idea ends and the Content begins. To use the cookies example:
If you add a tiny bit more salt, flower, butter or bake it a few blinks longer, does the Idea change? What if you change a noticeable amount? If it would change, what is a noticeable amount?
If not, then what if you add almonds (changing the appearance)?
If not, do different kind of cookies have different Idea?
If not, then how is it different from a cupcake?

Perhaps the border is vague and a topic of discussion among mages?
Quote:
For example that Ecuá and Xeuá work on the Content level only, not on the Form level.

Maybe an empirical definition could be 'everything a Ximaxian mage can't change is Idea, everything he can change is Content', which of course still leaves things open.

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 15 June 2006, 01:51:00
Quote:
a Ximaxian mage first becomes an "elemental worker", then a Xeuátan, and finally... a monk


I like that! Maybe I'm finally ready to post my clerical magic, just a few additions are needed yet.. :)  Unfortunately there are too many people around and it is terrible loud under our roof, no room for concentration..

Marvin: All variations are cookies and within the "shape" of a cookie, I think mages might discuss if this is a cookie or a related cake, where it is not so clear.  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 15 June 2006, 02:33:00
I don't think I follow what Arti is saying.  And what does clerical magic have to do with this at all?  Coren, I think I need you to translate.  




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 15 June 2006, 09:26:00
Well... I think Arti said monk because the acsetism (The traducer and dictionary failed this time so I think is correctly spelled)  Once you reach the Xeuá'tán level the only thing imposible for you is control time, with that overpower you would search a lone place to search your life prupouse.

Agin this is only my theory and interpretation of Arti.

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 June 2006, 10:45:00
Erm... Nope, Orril. No, nada, not at all.


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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 15 June 2006, 12:02:00
Then what do you meant with that???

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 15 June 2006, 14:29:00
`To answer Marvin;


If you add a tiny bit more salt, flower, butter or bake it a few blinks longer, does the Idea change?

No. Idea cannot be changed. However, the amount of possible Ideas is infinite.

What if you change a noticeable amount?
As above.

If it would change, what is a noticeable amount?
Well it doesnt change.. (amazing.. three questions answered by saying no to the first :)   )

If not, then what if you add almonds (changing the appearance)?
Then you get a different kind of cookie. Like making a simple kitchen chair into a cozy sofa.

If not, do different kind of cookies have different Idea?
To stick to cookies alone; yes and no. You can imagine ideas as being related to one another, in a structure resembling a familie tree. it all starts with just one idea (Ava), which contains several smaller ideas, which contain several smaller ideas, which contain several smaller ideas, which contain several smaller ideas.... well, you get the point. So there is an Idea that makes you able to identifies all cookies as 'cookie' but the numerous 'sub-ideas' make some of them chocolate cookies, or oatmeal-raisin, or almond..

If not, then how is it different from a cupcake?
Again, the branching Idea's come into place here. They both fit into the Idea of Pastry, wich is a rather general Idea, but then fall under two different sub-ideas. (Cookies and Cupcakes.)


I hope i got things right.. Artimidors wrath would be.. *shudders*

Miraran Tehuriden..

'What the hell is he doing?!' - Ximaxian Fire Master, last words.


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Edited by: Miraran Tehuriden at: 6/14/06 22:30


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 15 June 2006, 14:59:00
I‘m still not sure, if  got it right, please correct me:


I will formulate clerical magic now from the view of somebody who knows about clerical magic, but has some distance to it and knows Ximaxian magic as well:


If a Ximaxian mage casts a spell, he focusses on ounia and links and imagines what could happen with them and forces his WILL onto these ounia and links and casts his spell. He knows (hopefully) what he does and achieves what he wishes by actively altering the amount of the ounia and their relations etc..

A cleric has a wish, he sees the goal and he concentrates his WILL on the goal, the wish he wants to see fulfilled. His WILL is dressed in a prayer and either his WILL manipulates the ounia/links etc without him knowing what happens ,  - or the gods themselves do the ounia/link changing. The way how this happens is not of interest for him. So he doesn‘t know, what is going on, it could be elemental magic, it could be Xeuá magic, it could be even raw magic. So even a simply priest who has never heard the word Xeuá can do Xeuá magic without knowing it. It could happen in a totally different way as well , he could even use Coren‘s magic concept of choosing another possibility.

I think it was that what Art wanted to say with zhe ranking of - Elemental/Xeua/Clerical magic, for clerical magic can achieve a lot more than Ximaxian. (Note: A cleric though would never use the word achieve in connection with his "successful" praying)  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 15 June 2006, 15:02:00
Yell when you all want my theory on how Ximaxian magic is proven to be based in fact, in regards to how they perceive the Car'all. A simple but lengthy analogy of Santharian history and basic assumptions based on what is written, clearly defines this debated subject. Ximaxian views of the Car'all are without question written in factual observations, contained in the history of the elves.~Dips quill into a vial of ink and calmly waits for the present debate to reach its end~

*The entire idea spawned from one of Mina's posts that inspired me to do alot of thinking and reading*

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Edited by: Twen  Araerwen  at: 6/14/06 23:22


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 June 2006, 15:43:00
Yep, I think Talia summarized this quite nicely - Ximaxian magic, though taking a philosophical approach with trying to explain things through analogies to elven myth, is basically a "science". Ximaxian magic describes what to do to make casting effects reproduceable, while clerical magic or raw magic take a much more profound approach.

Altering connections/relations within cár'áll and elemental proportions is like knowing mathematical formulas and applying them when writing an exam - a Ximaxian mage knows the technical side and how to operate in these confines (working with an idea), but doesn't see the whole picture (what lies beyond the idea and what makes it possible).

Elven magic, clerical magic and weaving have a much more direct approach to magic, seeing it as part of nature or as part of a universal will (God) or a pattern existing in the universe which you can alter through willpower. This is not science, it is a feeling for existence and the universe itself.

When I read your post, Orril, I a) once again have to remind you that people should be able to understand what you're actually writing (spelling, make whole sentences!!! read double and trice before posting!!) and b) that very specific absolute ideas as you try to "define" everywhere have no place here. "The only thing not possible to control is time" is such an absolute that is completely off. What a Ximaxian mage cannot control is the idea itself (and "time" is just one idea), because his approach cannot address ideas at all.

With the knowledge of the fact that there are powers in the universe a cleric, an elven mage of nature or a weaver can activate, there also comes usually humbleness with that (at least for elves and clerics) I'd say. So it's not that there are mighty wizards running around casting time travelling spells and what not if they'd become "monks". Quite the contrary I'd say - at least this is what I wanted to express here.

Miraran's explanations are also pretty much ok from my point of view I'd say. :)    


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/14/06 23:47


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 15 June 2006, 16:17:00
Heh, Miraran I think you missed my point. I was just wondering about how the border between Form and Content would be defined ;)

Quote:
for clerical magic can achieve a lot more than Ximaxian

I never really thought of clerics being able to achieve more (at least from a theoretical point of view), but rather being able to achieve things easier (which would of course boil down to being able to achieve more from a practical point of view). But on the downside, they would have much less control over the actual effect of their prayer - if any - where as mages can say exactly what will happen (if they cast right of course). Elves would be more of a combination between the ease of a cleric and the control of a Ximaxian mage, but perhaps even they can not achieve anything more then a Ximaxian mage or a cleric (theoretically again)?

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 15 June 2006, 16:31:00
Why do I get the feeling that you're trying to introduce a theme of science always getting things wrong and religion being right?  It's sounding a little like those religious fundamentalists who, not having a very good understanding of scientific stuff, try to criticise science based on their incorrect knowledge.  Now, this isn't really that, but there are enough similarities to get me worried.  I hope this is just a misunderstanding of some sort, because I'm feeling slightly offended at the moment.  

Quote:
To stick to cookies alone; yes and no. You can imagine ideas as being related to one another, in a structure resembling a familie tree. it all starts with just one idea (Ava), which contains several smaller ideas, which contain several smaller ideas, which contain several smaller ideas, which contain several smaller ideas.... well, you get the point. So there is an Idea that makes you able to identifies all cookies as 'cookie' but the numerous 'sub-ideas' make some of them chocolate cookies, or oatmeal-raisin, or almond..

A little like having just one car'all, except that it's Form here and not car'all.  I'd also suggest that perhaps the one Idea or car'all is not Ava, but rather her Dream, ie. the world of Caelereth.  Ava, if I'm not mistaken, lies outside of it, and is thus a separate entity, if she exists at all.  




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 15 June 2006, 18:27:00
But... Clerics are limited to elements too... in some way; f.e:

A cleric of Nehtor would only use healing "spells", while a cleric of Gothar would use "Call Lightning" to summon rain or "Wind Exile" to disipate clouds, now this two are easy... I want to see what can do a cleric of Eyasha or Arvins Or Baberas or Jeyriall...

Talia... please tell me what can do clerics of diferents gods, or should I wait your entry about it???

P.S: I know that clerics don't use spells, but is a way to call their magic too.

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 June 2006, 23:55:00
Yep, Mina, I can assure you there are huge misunderstandings between us and no, I'm not a religious fundamentalist, at least not that I know of. And yes, I'm getting really tired of trying to explain because quite obviously you need a translation of what I write first anyway, so I wonder if it is a good idea to write it in the first place.

@Marvin: Clerics achieve things differently, which doesn't mean that they are extremely powerful or would use that power as mages do - it only means that in terms of manipulating cár'áll they have a different new approach, where a Ximaxian mage hits a natural limit. Not all clerics have - technically speaking - the same "amount of belief" neither to make a Ximaxian mage look bad.

@Orril: No, such spells you quote wouldn't be used by clerics. Elemental magic isn't used by clerics.


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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 16 June 2006, 05:20:00
Mina, don't worry, I'm far away from being a fundamentalist, I‘m more the opposite! Let me remind you, that I'm both in RL: A scientist and a theologian and that my whole life revolves about the relation of the two. I didn‘t say, that clerics are the better mages in general, I said, that it is possible from the approach of the clerics, that they can“achieve“ more than a Ximaxian mage, for they are not limited through their (the ximax-mage‘s) means. Of course, there will have been only few clerics who managed to actually „initiate“  raw magic with their prayer, but the possibility is there, that it was not just a „old wise man“, but a young, faithful, desperate monk who has not yet learned to doubt his gods like an old man. Clerics can be indeed very powerful -  but the probability, that it is happening, is quite small.

Orril, please stay away from clerical magic, for you assume too much how it works, and you are totally wrong. Of course, a cleric of Nehtor will probably pray for health, for he is devoted to this god, but principally can every priest pray to every god  - he may doubt a little more and therefore the prayer may not show the result he had hoped for, but he is not caged into his realm.

I really can‘t tell you, what the clerics of different gods can do, that would fill pages and is partly not yet developed and will only be developed, when the general layout is on the site.

Please stick to Ximax magic , for that is what you started to learn, you should be perfect there first before turning to another subject.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 16 June 2006, 13:41:00
I know they achieve things differently, I was just stating how I saw that 'difference'. Clerics will probably have a limit as well (much like mages have a 'ceiling' to their capabilties where even training doesn't get them further), although it's probably very hard to find out where that lies and probably never reached anyway.

Quote:
I really can‘t tell you, what the clerics of different gods can do, that would fill pages and is partly not yet developed and will only be developed, when the general layout is on the site.

Not to mention the possibilities are infinite.

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 16 June 2006, 15:53:00
Theoretically, there is no limit, practically, yes, the limit is the faith, or the lack of it.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 16 June 2006, 16:10:00
Are everyone concient that this makes Clerics:

a) Banned from RPG

b) Demigods that can do whatever they pray to.

c) Not humanoids anymore. (In the way that they can even reach immortality...)

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 16 June 2006, 17:28:00

Orril, haven't you understood anything or read what I said about them?

A sidenote: When I am on the dev-board I don't think at the RPG-board and would surely not write an entry in a way just that it fits better to the RPG-board. The dev-board is my first choice, the RPG-board a nice addition. And if the dev-board would require that they are demigods I would write them like this, even if they would not be playable there.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 16 June 2006, 19:02:00
Quote from Arti:
Quote:
For example that Ecuá and Xeuá work on the Content level only, not on the Form level.

If there's a theoretical limit for the Ximaxian mages, why not for clerics (this is going by the Ximaxian point of view of course)? A very hight limit (above the practical one), but a limit nonetheless?

And Orril, you're so far off your mark there no point in trying to explain it. *rumbles through the pages of the forum* Start by reading Talias thread on clerics and ask again.

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 17 June 2006, 09:02:00
Orril, you are missing the most important point about clerical magic vs Ximaxian magic. Clerical magic TRY to do anything it wants, but will not always succeed, or will succeed with fas less effect thant they had hoped for because they cannot controll their magic. A Ximaxian mage however, knows exactly what he will be doing, will often be able to do it faster, has more accuracy and controll over his castings, and a fas greater change of archieving what he wants because fizzling (the only way a spell can fail for them) (disruption doesn't count here, you can disrupt a prayer as well) can be prevented by simple practice.

Miraran Tehuriden..

'What the hell is he doing?!' - Ximaxian Fire Master, last words.


Feed the rats, leave a message!



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 17 June 2006, 22:45:00
I'm not really worried about you, Talia, at least you haven't said or done anything to make me suspicious.  I do not, however, think that Ximaxians are really limited by their techniques.  As far as I'm concerned, their theories are supposed to explain everything they have encountered (at least those they consider credible), and, as long as they are powerful enough, can replicate all that.  In any case, I'd rather wait for things to be sorted out with Coren before speculating on any possible limitations and comparisons with clerical magic.  

Arti, just so you know, it's not that I do not try to understand your explanations; I just find them very hard to understand.  Your post at the top of the previous page, for example, almost made sense to me, but in the end, I still didn't really get it.  However, there are a couple of instances where you give me the impression that you look down on Ximaxian magic, and by extension, science, since, as you say, it could be considered a sort of science.  In addition to that, you seem to think very highly of religion, at least when comparing it to Ximaxian magic, which makes me suspicious too.  




Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 19 June 2006, 15:20:00
Hi all. *waves*

Coren, as you don't appear on IM, I shall fire away to my heart's content here, and then, when I got my perverted satisfaction from poking holes at your theories, I shall suggest improvements/stay and keep discussing. ;)

First: I like what you have written.

Now, for the meat:

Statements in blue.
Reasoning in red.
Other stuff in white.

We have:

Idea (Form)
Structure
Content


And we have your explanations of those.

Question/problem number one: To me, the notion of Idea, as it currently is, stands undefined, especially if weavers are supposed to work by (ex)changing the Idea.

Quote: Many fishes, one idea of Fish.

If you now exchange "Fish" with "Bird", what happens, exactly? Well, the fish turns into a bird. But what bird? The idea of Bird is a something that makes it a bird, yes, but will it get yellow/blue coat, big or small - and so on. Thus, exchanging ideas becomes much like the undog to me. (Undog: An entity X that is defined by "X is not a dog".) Likewise, we get "X is a bird". Fine, but that does not define a bird, and thus the exchanging of Idea does mightily little. (As you still have the same content and the same Structure, and the Idea carries no information about how those must change.)


This can be solved by saying that Idea = Structure + content - an idea is defined by structure and content, and any change in those produces a new Idea. This is worthless if Idea is a separate entity, and not a name/theoretical construct. The notion of Idea as a name I treat below.

Nr. 2: Idea is undefined physically.

We have ounia (content) and links (structure). We have nothing corresponding to the Idea. (Currently).

Unless, of course, you shout "car'all" right before reading this line here. See below if you do.

Nr. 3: The current notion of Idea is human-centric. (or Elf-centric, if you so want):

The reasoning is simple: The Idea is that which allows us to say "Oh, it's a fish". Problem one: vegetables/fruits. Those have been defined and redefined, and are still vague. Are all objects so easy to classify?

And furthermore, what if I take a block of stone, and carve a statue from it? Is it now a Statue, idea-wise? And if I make a cube of stone, and say "It's a statue", and someone else says "Nah, it's just a rock" - what Idea is it?

Not to mention overlapping Ideas - even though they can be dealt with, as definitons of Ideas can form a hierarchy where there is always a superclass and a subclass for multiclass objects.

To summarize, the Idea is now defined from the very narrow perspective of Humans - but even then, it is not clear.


/end rant ;)


I propose this scheme for your consideration, for it was and is my view (But it is not cemented, as I am not (yet) a bigot):

Idea = car'all.
Form & content: (Imagined) Pieces of car'all. (Just like atoms and bonds between them are pieces of objects)

From this I think onwards: The world consists of whatever (atoms, if you want). Car'all is Idea, period. Ounia are not atoms, they are idea pieces, building blocks.

Idea makes atoms (or whatever we have, which we don't know about in Caelereth) behave certain ways.

An Idea can be changed by altering ounia (this is Ximax classic), links (Xeua/Ecua), and by direct manipulation. (Just like you can alter a lump of clay by atomic manipulation)

Question: How do you manipulate something as a whole? My thought is: Like you would alter a lump of clay to make a pot out of it.

Now, this still gives us the "equation" car'all = ounia + links (and, conversely, Idea = Content + Structure), however, the notion of Car'all is not obsolete, as it represents the union of the two, and thus allows a level of abstraction that makes us able to do things differently. I am not sure if this is actually a rewording of your ideas, Coren, or something different.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 19 June 2006, 15:56:00
Silfer, I‘m not quite sure about this all, but I think, you are trying to describe a philosophical idea with scientific (physics) means, and that will not work. The idea is what defines what an object is. The idea contains all possible forms or shapes an item can have, the form is the actual reflection of that idea, defining the shape you see.

So two different ideas can well be made out of the same amount of „matter“(ounia+links??), but the shape is different - one is a statue out of clay, the other is a pot out of clay (same amount of clay in each item). I don‘t know now, what is the structural difference between the two , but it is the form or shape which tells you, that it is a statue or a pot. The idea of the statue would contain all possible statues everybody could think of. it represents or better „IS“ all statues.

Well, I‘m not at all sure about this all..... :lol  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 19 June 2006, 16:18:00
Well, Silfer pretty much repeated my first questions (although far more elaborated :) ).

Quote:
Silfer, I‘m not quite sure about this all, but I think, you are trying to describe a philosophical idea with scientific (physics) means, and that will not work.

I don't see the problem with that. Car'all is abstract and almost philosophical. Magic is science like because it attempt to describe an abstract idea as good as possible, so why couldn't it be Idea it tries to describe? Isn’t Ximaxian magic about trying to find a workable description for magic, something that can’t be grasped or felt (so very close to a philosophical idea)?

Quote:
So two different ideas can well be made out of the same amount of „matter“(ounia+links??), but the shape is different

Why would this need to be the case? Why couldn't the shape be affected by the car'all?

The thing is, Ximaxian magic tries to have an explanation for all possible things that can or could happen in this world, both magical and non-magical. Having something undefined like 'Idea' floating around in such a system just seems odd to me (although by now I understand what you mean by it). And like I said previously, both car'all and Idea are an abstract description or things. Why do we have two of them?

Now that I think about it, the undefined Idea sounds more like an elvish approach btw. More ‘by feeling’.

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 19 June 2006, 16:32:00
Quote:
Why couldn't the shape be affected by the car'all?


Of course it is, ca'rall is the idea which is reflected by the form

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 19 June 2006, 17:13:00
Quote:
So two different ideas can well be made out of the same amount of „matter“(ounia+links??), but the shape is different - one is a statue out of clay, the other is a pot out of clay (same amount of clay in each item). I don‘t know now, what is the structural difference between the two , but it is the form or shape which tells you, that it is a statue or a pot. The idea of the statue would contain all possible statues everybody could think of. it represents or better „IS“ all statues.


Talia, the shape is defined by the links! It is the structure - the organisation of the clay.

Saying that an idea contains all possible information works, but then we are back at Ideas having pieces, which is what I proposed, more or less.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 June 2006, 00:17:00
Just a short note before things get out of hand:

Idea = car'all  or even more problematic: a human idea = cár'áll... that's - according to everything that I've ever done here on magic -: absolutely wrong and contradicting and partly leads to all the misunderstandings, problems and wrong deductions given above (along with other misinterpretations).

That's also not very well expressed in Coren's GIST thingy - the idea is a spiritual concept if you so want, the cár'áll representing the idea is the vehicle (form) it needs to become real, defining the content.

No time to elaborate right now, but if you read my longer post above you might see some pointers why this is the completely wrong turn.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/19/06 10:22


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 20 June 2006, 03:45:00
I knew, I got something wrong :o

Quote:
Cár'áll to me is just something which . Cár'áll is possibility.


- needs shape but usually always exists in concrete shape - ??

Cár'áll is then shape or form? The mold which gave the cookie the form?
How do you then describe or call what we now name "idea"

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 20 June 2006, 03:55:00
Quote:
the cár'áll representing the idea is the vehicle (form) it needs to become real, defining the content.

Going by this: how is seeing the car'all as what a mage uses to represent the Idea so wrong?

Marvin Cerambit ~ Do not tease my Warg, because you are crunchy and tasteful

Need help with your new Character?
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Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 June 2006, 04:28:00
Here's a little riddle for magicians:

Think of a block of plasticine or sand and you want to form an elephant out of it. Now allocate things from group 1 to group 2 (e.g. elephant = cár'áll or something similar):

group 1:
- elephant
- the act of building the elephant
- plasticine/sand
- the fact that the elephant you made has extremely large ears, a long trunk and a short body
- the resulting concrete elephant built out of the sand
- sand/plasticine clumps

group 2:
- ounía
- cár'áll
- idea/form
- content
- shape
- casting

This is a bit more precise as in my last post, but should help to make differences between the various components what defines magic visible.


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World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/19/06 12:34


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 20 June 2006, 05:42:00
?????????

- elephant - - idea/form
- the act of building the elephant - - casting
- plasticine/sand - - content
- the fact that the elephant you made has extremely large ears, a long trunk and a short body - - shape
- the resulting concrete elephant built out of the sand - - cár'áll
- sand/plasticine clumps - - ounía


Well, the cár'áll was what was still left in the end ;)  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/19/06 13:44


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 June 2006, 05:43:00
Nope, not correct...

P.S. I've changed the colour to black, so that others can't see your solution... (You'd need to mark the post with your cursor to see what's below.) If you try to solve it, please do it without looking at other already posted solutions.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/19/06 13:49


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Silfer Darkflare on 20 June 2006, 07:57:00
Arti, Idea in my post referred to Coren's "Idea/Form", and not to "human idea". Coren's Idea/Form is the platonic version, again, more or less. Had I referred to a human idea, I would not have capitalised it.  



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 June 2006, 08:18:00
Following Plato an idea is an eternal concept and not a human one. The latter concept was theorized much later in the history of philosophy, but doesn't fit in a medieval world design, so I wouldn't even think of that possibility here. I see it the same way as Plato. Ideas are more "Thoughts of Avá" (clerically speaking, Plato interprets ideas as "divine") or something "transcending", something pre-existing (speaking philosophically). I bring clerical examples here BTW because they are probably easier understandable, not because I'm a fundamentalist;)  


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World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/19/06 16:19


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 20 June 2006, 08:59:00
- elephant = Idea
- the act of building the elephant = casting
- plasticine/sand = Car'all
- the fact that the elephant you made has extremely large ears, a long trunk and a short body = Shape
- the resulting concrete elephant built out of the sand = Content
- sand/plasticine clumps = ounia


Im not quite content with the content, but this is the best i could match the lot.

Miraran Tehuriden..

'What the hell is he doing?!' - Ximaxian Fire Master, last words.


Feed the rats, leave a message!



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 20 June 2006, 09:18:00
Silf, I wasn't online at all since I was busy moving houses.

Firstly, I must urge you all - no, I actually must request that no further questions on theory or explanations be posted here. This thread has already been effectively killed - again by chaotic discussion - and that doesn't help me at all in trying to write a beginners guide.

I will answer all these questions and worries when I put the full theory on paper. Currently most of these objections seems a bit ridiculous to me (as I already have all of them answered in my head) but I understand that may not be the case for anyone else as you do not have private access to my thoughts :rolleyes  

So....

No more questions or explanations here.

Post only what pertains to this guide (and do so AFTER I've updated the current one)

Save your queries (please also do not start another thread to continue the discussion for instance) until I post the finished version of the full concept

THANKS!



Silf, your first post in this page is not a correct interpretation of my previous posts. (wait for the actual entry)

One reason for the confusion is that you have not used magic terms in the same context I use them. I use CONTENT for instance as substance + structure. So we don't have 1. Idea 2. Structure 3. Content we only have 1) Idea 2) Content. Thus statements like this really absolutely queer to me: Idea = Content + Structure. What you propose there is already covered by my conception of Content. What you call "content" there is what I call "substance". So already Content=Substance + Structure


Anyway - no more replies about this here!
:hammer

Save the hellfire and whimpers for the proper thread



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 June 2006, 10:50:00
@Mira: Your solution is the right one BTW - this difference (compared to Talia's solution and Silfer's potential mix-ups) was important for me to have stressed. Cár'áll shouldn't be "what is still left in the end" nor be mixed up with the "idea", but be just that what you selected, Mira...

But I shut up here now and let Coren take over, just wanted to finish this.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 20 June 2006, 12:07:00
CAVEAT: If anyone dares to respond to Art's last post and inquire why Mira's solution is the right one, they are going to be beheaded promptly.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Priest of the Moon on 20 June 2006, 12:31:00
are you guys serius about this? Do you realy practice magic?



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Gararion on 02 July 2006, 19:10:00
This is a fictional world.  Think of it as a world created by people, much like how J.R.R Tolkien created the world which he staged his novels in, like the Lord of the Rings Trilogy.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: so orril miesefer on 03 July 2006, 09:39:00
Well... I do in RL, but won't tell nothing more about it.

Idea = "Mental representation of an object, imaginary or physical." From "The Royal academy dictionary"


The idea then is subjected to the humans??? I vote to keep ideas as the "original plan of Avá" or in other words, the natural will ruling over something.  

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 03 July 2006, 12:22:00
Orril the reason we capitalize "Idea" is because we use it in a specific context, suggesting a special meaning somewhat different than the dictionary definition.

The idea then is subjected to the humans??? I have absolutely no idea what you mean...

And it is really very very very iresome that I've had to repeat this so many times but people just choose to ignore still. How many times more do I need to say no more questions/suggestions/remarks on general theory here?  



Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mortus Pryde on 09 September 2006, 12:22:51
I was wondering if when finished I could publish this guide on AoC RPG Info when it is complete. AoC RPG Info being a resource site directed at roleplaying in Adventures of Cealereth.


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 September 2006, 15:40:11
Well, if you have something complete, let us know and we'll take a look what we could do with it :)


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Baromosa on 09 September 2006, 23:14:23
hey, i was looking through the elemental spell lists and I noticed alot of magical formulas undefined. I was just wondering is this a important piece of the entry, and if so who would ussally work on such a thing.


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mina on 09 September 2006, 23:24:56
Well, they were left undefined because we haven't defined what format formulae are supposed to have.  Development on that is on hold at the moment, I think, so for now, just leave out the formula when you're writing spells. 


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Mortus Pryde on 10 September 2006, 02:02:13
Well, I was more wondering about this guide when it is complete as personally the concept of magic. Honestly Shaw my ISP wiped out the origional AoC RPG Info site so all the tools and guides I had were gone and I did not have a backup. I actually had to rewrite the EAC from scatch and bits of code I found laying around my file system. Fortunately I had a final version of the SMC.

So really I am trying to rebuild content and magic is just not a subject I could write a guide on myself.


Title: Re: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System
Post by: Baromosa on 10 September 2006, 03:59:26
@ Mina: Well if there was to be any work on it, it seems you would be the one to do it. From what I've seen you specialize in languages and magic, what better way to combine the two?