Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Magic in the Lands of Caelereth => Topic started by: Helvíl Ypherén on 09 August 2007, 02:45:23



Title: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 09 August 2007, 02:45:23
Hmmm.. .I have been reading quite a bit in the magic section and found spells that really doesnt make any sense to me... or spells that do not fit in the current magic system:

(I do not mean to offend the developers/writers of these spells:

Solidify: Casting procedure should be updated...

Break: The Casting procedure is not specific enough on what to do with the earth car'all.

Impale: the casting procedure sounds like a vodoo spell

Animate Dead: Casting Procedure does not make sense.... Dripping a blood and uttering a a formula wouldnt
                     cause the dead to rise

Call to the Beast: This deals with the connection between a demon in the netherworld and the mage in
                         the visible world. These actually sounds more like a xeua rather earth spell because
                         it deals with connection and beside the spell is like making a demon your pet when you
                        succeed casting it or doing it.

Raise Skeleton: This also sounds more like a xeua rather than earth. Another thing like ANimate the dead, it
                      does not explain how the skeleton would "rise"

Bone Crafting: It sounds more like a xeua since your are manipulating and linking the links of a bone.
                    Another thing is that the ingredients in the casting procedure to keep the object is not
                    explained why should they be used... What property does this objects posses that helps the
                    mage to keep the object in its form even if his car'all has already left it.


Ecua:

Frantic Purification: The Casting Procedure should be rewritten to fit the current magic system.

Despirit: The Casting Procedure should be rewritten to fit the current magic system.

Summon Chasm Demon: Should be removed for a while because the way teleportation or summoning works
                                  has not been settled yet

Unbeing: I  really dont get this spell....

Fire:

Rise Flame: Casting Procedure should be rewritten to fit the current magic system

Boiling Blood: SHould be rewirtten to fit the current magic system more

Light: SHould rewritten and casting procedure should be explained... more

Grip of Malific: How does gripping an imaginary heart controls the real one... Please elaborate

Blood breaker: The Casting procedure should be rewritten

Blazing Shield: The Casting procedure needs some writing

Dark Stability: The prolonging the life of an undead creature is somewhat confusing...... The casting
                    procedure should have more details on how to use fire ounia to increase the life  of
                   an undead creature

Rays of heat: Casting procedure needs some more writing

Flame Engulfment: The procedure needs some little adjustment

Extend Life: ................. I dont get this one either


Water:

Area of Frost: Casting procedure needs some rewrite

Frost shield: The Casting procedure should be rewritten... really!

Liquidization: The Casting procedure should also be rewritten....

Water Extraction: Isnt it that dstroying the xeua between the water and the target requires ecua?

Wave: Casting Procedure should be rewritten

Freeze: Casting Procedure should also be rewritten

Kord's fever of Nightmare: Same as above.....

Spear of Frost: Casting procedure needs some editing

Call Lightning: Needs some editing

Xeua:

Magical Chain: Casting Procedure need some editing

Golem: How do you bring a something alive




Okay theres alot more but need some sleep... I'll be editing this (soon I hope)

Yeah and when I say that needs some editing, I mean because the procedure doesnt fit to the current magic system. Like the Frost shield, after you throw the reagent, an ice wall will appear....

If I am wrong kindly tell me please....
I will also add the spells that you think should be rewritten just telll me :)

Again  I do not wish to offend the creator/developers/writers of these spells.. :) 



Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 09 August 2007, 03:49:40
We already have a thread for this.  Also Shansi, sayign something is to vodoo or to metaphoric is not, IMHO, a legitimate reason for something to be re-written.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: xerampelinae deicida on 09 August 2007, 05:23:22
I think your trying to impose the real world to much on a fantasy world

Quote
Dripping a blood and uttering a a formula wouldn't
                     cause the dead to rise
That would be true in the real world but this is a fantasy world if we want to make a spell that does that we can.

while some of these spells may not fit well into the magic system that most of the spells we have on the sight are you should remember that Caelereth is a big disc and we have more then one magic system thus some spells may be influenced by other magic systems. Same as most languages hav e words borrowed from other languages.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 09 August 2007, 14:07:33
I thought our magic spells should only follow ximaxian magic?
@Xerampelina: So you mean I or anyone else could write spells that is slightly related to another magic system? I mean not following the car'all , ounia, and the ximaxian principles for magic?


@Drasil: Sorry about that. I did not find any recent thread about this.
           And most of the spells I wrote above there are just that might have been written before the ximaxian system was written or before our magic system got to its current state.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Niccoli on 09 August 2007, 20:07:15
Strictly speaking magic on the disc could go by any one of several different systems. Ximaxian magic is the only one developed right now.

There is Clerical Magic, Nybelmarian (Zhunite), Kasumarii shadowmancy, which is almost hybridized, and Ximaxian. All of these are systems right, almost like the difference between Mac and Windows. The differences are in how you go about doing the same thing and how you think it happens.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 09 August 2007, 21:59:01
So not all the spells in the magic section should be ximaxian??? I know Clerical but it has its own sub section....


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 09 August 2007, 22:09:19
Shansi, you should understand that all of the elements have properties. These properties are aspects of certain elements, many times not the overall manifestation of the element. These effects you criticize are merely aspects related to a particular element.
Example
A property of fire is animation .... this is why flames dance. By strengthening this animation aspect of fire a necromancer then uses a corpse similar to a marionette. Causing a corpse to burn only creates a larger concentration of fire ounia, making the spell manifestation easier to accomplish.

Without an understanding of the properties of each element many things in magic may seem out of place for you. I will find you some useful links that may help you gain a better understanding of what I am saying.
 Properties Discussion  (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php?topic=10651.0)
 Interesting Read for beginning Magi  (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php?topic=10654.0)
 Cutting edge but not completely fact  (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php?topic=10638.0)
 Ounia - A trip into the unknown with Rayne  (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php?topic=10582.0)
None of the Necromancy spells would be taught in Ximax but they are explained in this way. As this is how scholars would understand their workings ...... not like a scholar would hunt down a Necromancer for an indepth study.
~Sincerely~
Cáo fá cár'tuulén:Twen Araerwen


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 August 2007, 22:37:27
@Twen: You need to link to the pages directly within the mainframe (currently your links link to the mainframe), e.g. by putting the URL as the link which you see once you've opened it in a new window!


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 09 August 2007, 22:41:54
Thanks Arti! I am fixing the links now, sorry it has been awhile for me  :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 10 August 2007, 03:41:26
So not all the spells in the magic section should be ximaxian??? I know Clerical but it has its own sub section....

Technically, you are right. However, it is not permitted at the moment to work outside the already defined magic systems. You might be allowed to work for the less common magical theories though, but that would be up to the Master and Mistress of Magic, Marvin and Mina.. (Whoa.. that's a lot of capital M's!)

Creating new magical systems is off limits at all times by the way, although creative thinking tends to go a long way when it comes to the Development Bans.

Some rules can be bent... others, can be broken..


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 10 August 2007, 04:07:03
Thanks twen for your explanation about that necromancy spelll.....


However there are still spells that needs to be updated...

Animate Dead is an example: The casting procedure is somewhat lacking explanation. Dripping blood and uttering the formula will bring the dead to an undead sort of being... (My point is that it isnt Ximaxian magic)

But i guess not all of the magic spell in the magic section is ximaxian based? We could easily turn them all into ximaxian spell by using the principles of Car'all and ounia...

So.... should we change them into Ximaxian spell or leave them the way they are? I would really love to help but currently my schedule is tied up... If you agree to my suggestion I would proceed on changing the casting procedures of these spells to make them ximaxian (also some parts of it to fit with the casting procedure)

Thanks Everyone


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 10 August 2007, 04:20:56
they used to be correct when seen from a ximaxian point of view.. however, the system of ximaxian magery has been altered greatly, and improved consistency wise, making many of the older spells lack important detail in the progress..


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Fox on 10 August 2007, 04:36:46
Animate Dead is an example: The casting procedure is somewhat lacking explanation. Dripping blood and uttering the formula will bring the dead to an undead sort of being... (My point is that it isnt Ximaxian magic)

Formulas, reagents, and the like are not necessary to cast a spell, they are used to aid a mage in concentrating and perhaps in energy. Think of it like constructing a building. Formulas are like blueprints. You can certainly construct a building without them, but they aid in helping you understand what needs to be done.

Reagents on the other hand are a bit more useful, though again, not necessary for higher level mages. They can offer a little bit of aid (for instance, blood will likely have a high percentage of fire oun, especially when fresh), and by converting the links connecting the blood to the dead being into soor (active), you are in a sense siphoning the animation properties of the blood and using them to aid in animating the body. Of course, as we can see, manipulating the animation properties of blood's fire oun is the realm of fire magic rather than earth, hence that spell should be changed into a fire spell.

However, you don't necessarily need the blood, since you can find fire ouns from other sources or even whatever is left in the body itself and utilize them, with proper application of will.

When the spell is updated (as it is in need of updating), such an explanation should probably be added. Spell formulas and reagents are something that have been sort of passed over as the magic system has been rebuilt, since they aren't integral to it.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 10 August 2007, 04:37:16
So do you agree that we should recreate them to fit the current magic system???\

there are some spells that we could easily fit into the magic system... I found many ways to make them so :)


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 10 August 2007, 04:38:09
My point exactly! The spell does not teaches the mage how to cast the spell but how to use the reagents.... so some spells really need some updating...


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Fox on 10 August 2007, 04:39:08
My point exactly! The spell does not teaches the mage how to cast the spell but how to use the reagents.... so some spells really need some updating...

That spell along with others is already listed as in need of update in one of the stickied threads.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 10 August 2007, 04:43:06
Oh yeah... On the whos working on what up there.......

Well I guess I was just asking for opinions because I thought they were written that way even after the system was built...

Besides I read the sticky notes and not much specific spells were written


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Fox on 10 August 2007, 04:46:13
Most of the spells on the site are pre-Ximaxian-revision, or were written during it before it was entirely understood. All of my spells were written before the change and thus all need updating.

I'm thinking about going down the list this week and seeing what I can work on.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 10 August 2007, 04:47:41
I added one line on my previous post...

Do you think they would mind if I also help change their spells or something (add, subtract)


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Niccoli on 10 August 2007, 04:51:12
The magic folk, minus Dason are a very very very endangered species. Assuming Dasson and Mina were to dissapear we'd have a hell of a time developing things. However, developing magic at the start is generally strongly discouraged. (Try a plant.)


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Fox on 10 August 2007, 04:59:05
I added one line on my previous post...

Do you think they would mind if I also help change their spells or something (add, subtract)

If you have a decent grip on the way magic works, then I'd say go ahead. There is nothing stopping you from starting here instead of the recommended beasts/plants (I personally started in magic. But that was when the old system was around, which was much less complicated).

I'd recommend going over all of the various works and getting it down as best as you can, then give it a whirl.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 10 August 2007, 05:02:06
Niccoli really I mean no OFFENSE....

I like the magic section because it is easy for me to create spells, magic system,. I have tried a plant but it did not work well for me. I think my entry was "the Golden flower" but it wasnt approved because of the lack of detail...

The only thing stopping me is I dont write good but I have lots of idea I want to write. I will try my best writing the spells seeing that I will just be continuing what they started,,,


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 10 August 2007, 07:13:08
Shansi, you need to really tread lightly with what you are saying. Rewriting someone else's entry is ..... infringement. The idea is the writers own concept .... created, written and brought to life by them. I know for certain if you attempt to rewrite/edit any of my works. I may not be listed as one of e the "Masters of Magic" but I will verse you in how magic is done here. You have any questions on ANY of my entries please feel free to state them here. If you enlighten me to mistakes I may have made, (I) will edit my own works.

My apologies if the above seems brash or harsh, but I do not take the editing of my fellow writers works lightly.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 10 August 2007, 07:33:12
(And mind you, while Twen is not one of the Masters of Magic, she IS one of the most knowledgable Magic experts, and is one of the best spell-writers we have)


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Fox on 10 August 2007, 07:42:08
Shansi, you need to really tread lightly with what you are saying. Rewriting someone else's entry is ..... infringement. The idea is the writers own concept .... created, written and brought to life by them. I know for certain if you attempt to rewrite/edit any of my works. I may not be listed as one of e the "Masters of Magic" but I will verse you in how magic is done here. You have any questions on ANY of my entries please feel free to state them here. If you enlighten me to mistakes I may have made, (I) will edit my own works.

My apologies if the above seems brash or harsh, but I do not take the editing of my fellow writers works lightly.

One cannot halt updates where they are required, however, just because it is another writer's work, especially if that writer is no longer present. Santharia is a group project, after all, and joint work is encouraged. I like to think of it like Wikipedia... an entry may be someone else's, but there's no wrong with someone else going in and changing it with more details, new and updated information, and so on.

Of course, when the writer in question is still available, it is certainly better form to ask them to update it themselves, or if you are allowed to update their entries with their permission.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 10 August 2007, 07:47:06
In fact, it is rule and custom that when the original writer is present, permission must be given before a rewrite is done, and the changes made are to be descided on in more or less unison.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 10 August 2007, 07:59:44
Indeed there are items in his list that are outdated. Many of these outdated entries are already taken for rewrite but others. Yet there are just as many that are listed there simply for the fact that he does not understand of what he speaks. As some of my entries are listed there .... I humbly invite him to debate my works with me. A light-hearted debate is often times helpful to both parties involved. "So I invite you to debate my entries with me Shansi. Either here or in another thread, your decision."

I recommend you read the links I gave you in my above post. Those will be some of the areas we will delve into. Then maybe in our sharing experience I will enlighten you on how Necromancy varies from Ximaxian Fire Magic. Dealing with the metaphorical fires of life to bind threads of the soul to the remnants of their physical forms, might be something that interests you.

Simple Viewpoints On Necromancy
Rayne - Purely Physical Representations
Silfer Darkflare - Purely Spiritual Representations
Artimidor and Myself - Spiritual and Physical manifestations

Maybe you could help me sort these out to find the truth? I solemnly swear to stay within the borders of Ximaxian magic in our debate on this matter. 

@Mira: "Flattery will get you everywhere, Master Mira." :)


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 10 August 2007, 09:55:18
*nods in agreement with everything Twen and Mira said*

First off, Dasson/Fox is a very rare appearance now days and, no offense to him/her(I forget which) but the system has changed considerably since his time here.

Secondly, please read before posting.  If you had done so, you would have noticed that the earth spells you mentioned(minus Impale becasue there is nothing wrong with the spell) have been addressed and their revisions have been reserved by me, the primary earth magic-developer.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Mina on 10 August 2007, 13:57:10
@Twen: Necromancy is one of those things that is really quite hard to properly explain with Ximaxian magic, at least as far as the system is currently understood.  One of the problems, I think, is that it hasn't really been defined what 'physical' and 'spiritual' really mean.  I think Coren mentioned (long ago) that he had something to say about it, but I don't think he's said it yet. 

My own idea is that there's a 'physical plane of existence' and a 'spiritual plane of existence', and that living sentient beings (and maybe non-sentient ones too) exist in both, but most other things exist only (or maybe just mostly, I'm not sure yet) in one or the other.  Necromancy is defined as the animating of corpses, which are normally completely (or almost completely) physical.  Assuming that they are completely physical, this would mean that the necromancer is giving a spiritual existence to something non-spiritual (assuming that Animation is spiritual).  I'm not sure if that's something a mage should be capable of doing. 

With animated corpses, that's not too much of a problem, but that's not too far away from some problematic stuff.  The mind, for example, is part of a normal person's spiritual existence.  Does this mean a mage (or a group of them) could construct a mind for something that did not previously have one?  Or even a complete 'spirit'?  Is this also the same as making them 'alive', or is there more to 'life' than having a full spiritual existence? 


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 10 August 2007, 19:05:32
Glad to hear this Mina. So what you are saying is the months I spent explaining it before was now wasted simply because "YOU" do not feel that it is right. Well I have something that is "right". A rightful goodbye that I should of never taken back. Enjoy writing all of Santh magic on your own Mina as you have already driven off every person that I gave a f___ about that participated there anyhow.
Quote
With animated corpses, that's not too much of a problem, but that's not too far away from some problematic stuff.  The mind, for example, is part of a normal person's spiritual existence.  Does this mean a mage (or a group of them) could construct a mind for something that did not previously have one?  Or even a complete 'spirit'?  Is this also the same as making them 'alive', or is there more to 'life' than having a full spiritual existence?
Maybe if you had read what was written and discussed on YOUR magic forums you might fathom the answer to this. Or would you like an education? Ehh nvm, you would probably ignore that discussion as well. Peace .... out.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 10 August 2007, 19:19:14
OKay I understand that I am no magic expert...... Twen I dont really like to debate with you (I hope this debate wasnt started because you were offended). Trust me this thread could last for ages twen. Debate is not one of my best skills but I frequently find loop holes and this causes more debates. You can call me a coward but thats okay...

Yeah and if we have a debate here.... I think everyone is against me :) so I cannot fight without allies on my side (even though this type of situation is not rare) and besides you are one of the magic experts here so I guess a newbie like me doesnt stand a chance :)

Okay now I will rest my case... I will alter no work, I wont try post for quite a while
I kow the words above is a little bit harsh but I chose these words so only a few might get hurt.... Sorry for anyone who might get offended!

Malakat na ako bwas kay galingin ulo ko nga daan!


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Mina on 10 August 2007, 22:20:10
What?  :undecided: I wasn't criticising you in that post.  I was pointing out the potential problems my own ideas concerning what the meanings of 'spiritual' and 'physical' are might have when applied to necromancy.  I don't see how I am disagreeing with you at all. 


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 11 August 2007, 01:37:07
Shansi, the idea of a debate is for both sides to express their perspectives. I simply want to hear what you find to be wrong with my entries. Maybe you found some error I have made in their creation. If not then it gives me a chance to help you understand why things were written as they were.

Loop holes?!  Haha I think what you found were people unable to answer your questions .... come speak to me of loop holes. Maybe I can close a few of them for you.

Helvil, as these same issues appear on the RP board with you. I am fairly tired of chasing you from board to board only to address the same problems. Since I am no longer a mod anywhere on these boards ..... you can find someone else to cater to your CD/magic/elf needs. While I return to doing the things I love.
~Sincerely~
Cáo fá cár'tuulén:Twen Araerwen


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 11 August 2007, 02:42:38
@Mina: Sorry for the harsh response above. Wouldn't be a fire mage if I didn't have a tinge of a temper in me. :) If you really wish to debate that topic .... start a thread in the magic area and I would be more than happy to come along with my 2 sans. Or just hop into the IRC sometime, you and I have had more than one stroke of genius over some idle chatter. ~Hug~ Good to see you again hun.


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Mina on 11 August 2007, 13:51:12
 :hug:
I'll try spending more time on IRC again now that the channel apparently isn't dead anymore, but with university starting soon, I doubt I'll have as much time as I used to.   :buck:


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 12 August 2007, 15:01:10
OKay I am back from my vacation...
Sorry Twen I am annoying in both the development board and rp board...
I am ready to look at your entries and see what is wrong with it and try to defend it... Just tell me what spells and I would try my best to understand the spell and let us hope that all the problem I caused was not due to my sleep deprivation... Okay Twen you may start the debate but please one spell at a time.    :)
 
 
 


Title: Re: Outdated, Misfit Spells
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 20 August 2007, 02:33:24
Quote
I am ready to look at your entries and see what is wrong with it and try to defend it... Just tell me what spells [...]

Wouldn't you be the one to pick out a spell you (thought) you saw mistakes in? I don't remember any of Twen's spells having issues.