Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Magic in the Lands of Caelereth => Topic started by: Fox on 10 August 2007, 05:08:34



Title: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Fox on 10 August 2007, 05:08:34
As I'm just getting back into things and trying to give magic a full whirl again (I think I have a better understanding of it than I did years ago), I had a quick magic question I was hoping could get clarified by any magic-oriented person more knowledgeable than I.


In relation to a person/object/etc's Car'all, is there a hard 'barrier' separating it from other Car'all/the air/etc (like a bag, for instance)? As all ouns are linked to one another (afaik), what determines whether something is an object or not? Is there a true separation or is an 'object' simply a highly concentrated amount of specific ouns (IE, a rock is only a rock in separation to the air around it because it is a space consisting of a high percentage of active Earth ouns)?


In addition, if there is a barrier, is that barrier capable of being breached by non-magical means? (I'd assume so, such as eating) I was thinking about reagents while responding to Shansi in the other thread, and was wondering if you could actually bypass a spell's Sphere III design by physically applying new ouns manually and then initializing them via Sphere II? (IE, using your own ouns to cause a change in someone else's Car'all would be Sphere III, as you are introducing the new ouns to their Car'all, but if you were to instead, say, cut your finger and then drip the blood onto the target physically, could you use Sphere II casting methods on the target instead?) Or do you still need to use Sphere III techniques to introduce the reagent's ouns to the target?

In other words: Can you add new ouns to a target Car'all by non-magical means without having to touch on Sphere III techniques? (thus, a touch-type spell would be Sphere II because, by touching the target, you are temporarily linking your individual Car'allia together?)


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Helvíl Ypherén on 10 August 2007, 05:16:59
Yes I am also bewildered by that...

But with your question about the barrier between the ouns of a rock and an air... I think the principles of ouns are just like atoms and molecules. They are connected to each other to create an object. Like a rock has atoms connected to each other in such a way that it is solid but these atoms is not connected to the air atoms. This is how I understand the ouns... If I am wrong I would be very happy to be corrected :)


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 10 August 2007, 05:37:44
There is, in theory, just one car'all. the divisions are made by the way we view the world. However, car'all may define physical form, but physical form maintains car'all. in other words, things separate themselves as individual objects by being such an object in the first place. Sphere three magic is powerfull enough to overpower this 'ambition' to resist change and alter the very composition of the car'all.


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Fox on 10 August 2007, 09:18:21
Basically what I'm wondering, is if the following is possible/correct (I know the Xeua links (white soor, blue ahm) are likely incorrect, I wasn't really going for accuracy there, just the general idea):


(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/870/siivssiiiwf3.jpg)


In this, I am assuming that Sphere II can allow the shift of an oun from one Car'all to another through physical touch, assuming that physical contact essentially 'merges' two auras together. While Sphere III allows the shift of an oun from one Car'all to another without necessitating physical touch.

I am working on an update for Water Extraction right now and this issue is coming up in whether or not to classify it as a Sphere II spell or as a Sphere III spell.


Basically... is switching an oun from one Car'all to another a simple task of movement? Or is Sphere III necessary in order to properly merge the new oun into the Car'all? If it is the latter, then that supports the idea that two Car'all are two separate things from each other (a person crossing from one country to another and thus requiring all the proper paper work and such (representative of Sphere III)), while the former assumes that there is no actual difference between two Car'all (IE, you build a bridge from one building to another, and suddenly you have, essentially, a single building, since people can walk easily from one side to the other until that bridge is removed).

From as far as I understand, all ouns have a permanent link to every other oun, which cannot be broken and cannot be formed as they are already formed, thus magic is all in manipulating the various links. This would support the idea that Sphere III is not required to move an oun from one Car'all to another, because there is no breaking and reforming of links, just the location of the oun in relation to the other ounia.


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Fox on 10 August 2007, 09:34:04
In other words (meh, I'm not explaining myself well enough here):

When you eat something, you are moving its physical oun into your Car'all to thus give you energy. If you are reading a book to learn something, you are imprinting its memories and knowledges into your mind, its spiritual oun into your Car'all.

Is Sphere II a magical means of doing that, still requiring a direct on the spot consumption (touching, etc)?

Is Sphere III like getting the energy of an apple, but without actually eating the apple? Or implanting the knowledge of a book into your mind, without actually reading the book?


If I am wrong here, please correct me. :)


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 10 August 2007, 09:49:35
Your question inspires these ideas in me Rheine.
Example 1:
You take two burning torches lay them side by side so that their flames become one. What you have is a single large concentration of fire ounia at one end with separate sticks stemming off. In essence you have created a single car'all with the flames, only due to the fact of fires property of animation and the fires consumption of mutual air.
Example2
On the other hand .... you take two rocks and push them tightly together. Are they in a similar position as the above mentioned torches, of course they are. Yet the property of stillness and solidity of earth keep the rocks car'all separate and intact. Only by destroying and mixing the rocks as gravel would combine their car'all ..... outside of magical influence.
Example3
Wind on the other hand with the property of movement is in an ever changing state within the overall car'all.

SphereIII allows a mage to move and add ounia within a targets car'all. But this phenomenon occurs naturally as well. A mage moves these ounia through willpower, changing an ouns placement beyond normal means.
 
I would think the ability to combine a car'all and ounia physically is dependent upon the state the ounia are in within the car'all. IMHO I hope these words of a humble apprentice helps you gleam some answers.



Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Mina on 10 August 2007, 13:30:29
Interesting question.   :grin:

My opinion is that there isn't any barrier separating one car'all from another, or anything that truly defines a 'border' between them at all.  Car'allia are distinguished by the relative strengths of the xeua links.  For example, in a rock, the ounia of the rock will mostly be strongly linked to each other, but not particularly strongly in most cases to the ounia of the air around the rock.  Likewise, the ounia that makes up the car'all of the air would be strongly linked to each other, but only very weakly to the ounia of the rock.  If that's not clear, I could try making a picture to illustrate. 

Quote
From as far as I understand, all ouns have a permanent link to every other oun, which cannot be broken and cannot be formed as they are already formed, thus magic is all in manipulating the various links.

This is correct, as far as I know.  However, while the links cannot, as defined, truly be destroyed, they can be weakened to the point where they are negligible (which for convenience we would call breaking the link).  This is the state most are naturally in. 

Regarding Sphere 2, my idea was that the closer two ounia are, the stronger the link between them will tend to be, so bringing two ounia closer might cause the link between them to strengthen.  Pressing your finger to an object won't really merge two car'allia, but at least some of the links between them will become stronger.  So I guess it could perhaps be considered a partial merging.  There is probably some variation between the elements here as well; as Twen points out, things dominated by Earth don't seem to be affected much here.  As for Water Extraction, I don't really think it'll help much, except that a stronger link with the target car'allia might make it a little easier to manipulate. 


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: xerampelinae deicida on 10 August 2007, 15:41:53
I'd say yes other wise if object didn't contain their own car'all they couldn't be used for magic.

Yes to the 2nd one too otherwise
ice enchantment (http://www.santharia.com/magic/water_spells/9_ice_enchantment.htm) wouldn't work.


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 14 August 2007, 06:41:21
(see Mina's Shielding Wind's thread/spell discussion)  Mina did a pretty good job of explaining it IMHO.  The car'allia of objects are definatly distinct for, as Xera pointed out, pin-pointing a spell would be nearly impossible.

On the other hand, the Ahm and Soor links between an object and its environment create an interaction and fusion between their individual car’alls at a distinct point between the two, where the properties of each individual fade and the interaction between the two object become pronounced.

The severity of this meeting will, as I believe Twen stated, vary greatly depending upon the properties of the ounia present.  For example, an interaction with air will almost always be present, while with less animated elements, such as fire and water, the two require relatively close contact.  Finally with earth, it is nearly impossible to combine the two without using magical means or smelting ect.

When multiple elements are involved, it is my belief that this difference is far more pronounced.  For example, when a rock is held over a flame, the properties(and thus the car’all) of the point of contact is significantly different than that of each individual object. 


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 20 August 2007, 02:12:55
I think it would depend. Car'all can be altered by everyday things. Heating up an object strengthens Fire ounia links, like sphere I. Heating up one end of a metal bar will create a reactions similar to sphere II (heat spreading over the entire object). Burning something removes Fire ounia from an object for example (it becomes less flamable).

Bordering car'allia clearly have an influence on each other. Sunlight will warm up rocks, the cold breeze cool them down. I doubt touch would allow for sphere II transferring of ounia, but it certainly would make sphere III transfers easier.

Where does one border end and another start? If you throw salt in water, does it have one or two car'allia? I guess that could result in some interesting discussions for Ximaxians :)


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 20 August 2007, 08:37:23
Why should they have borders?  The car'all of one object is linked to that of its surroundings, thus they have no definite border.  The way I see it, they mold together at a point of contact, there-in creating a "new" car'all at the"point of meeting".  Using your salt and water example, originally the two objects are seperate, but by using a physical means, you "force" a strengthening and overlap between the two which creates your salt water with all of its own, unique properties.


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 21 August 2007, 03:10:46
You can make a clear distinction between water and air, so there's a border somewhere. That's not to say those borders couldn't blur or even disappear.


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 21 August 2007, 03:52:41
Yup.  That was basically what I was trying to say, though I think that the borders would be readily recongnizable.


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Fox on 21 August 2007, 13:06:46
You can make a clear distinction between water and air, so there's a border somewhere. That's not to say those borders couldn't blur or even disappear.

Can the act of applying reagents to a target in anticipation of a spell cause the ounia from the reagent to mold with the Car'all of the target, allowing the mage to then manipulate the reagent's energies as part of the target's energy?



Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 22 August 2007, 22:51:59
Wouldn't that mean that the car'all of the regent would have to completely disassemble and then reassemble to match that of the target?  IMHO, that would require the Archschools and that low leveled magi shouldn't be working with that type of magic.


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 23 August 2007, 02:39:43
Well, I suppose you could connect two cuts and have a connection between the two car'allia through the blood or something. Not sure how reagents would work.


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Mina on 24 August 2007, 02:22:16
Well, if it is applied directly to the target, ie. actually in contact, it might help I think, though how much might depend on what the reagent and target are.  Putting eg. two rocks together probably isn't going to make much of a difference. 

I don't think that's how the term 'reagent' normally being defined though, which seems to be that they help the mage to focus.  However it could likely be a sort of general enhancing measure which works with many spells. 


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Fox on 24 August 2007, 02:46:26
Well, if it is applied directly to the target, ie. actually in contact, it might help I think, though how much might depend on what the reagent and target are.  Putting eg. two rocks together probably isn't going to make much of a difference. 

I don't think that's how the term 'reagent' normally being defined though, which seems to be that they help the mage to focus.  However it could likely be a sort of general enhancing measure which works with many spells. 

I personally would prefer that we give reagents an actual physical effect that helps in the casting of spells. With the amount of money and time it takes to acquire certain reagents, just brushing them off as simply 'it's all in your head' methods of concentration is a bit.. wrong. A strong mage not needing reagents for the same spells--sure. But that they do nothing at all, that is a bit too far. Formulas can be for just concentrating, but reagents need to have some effect to be worth the amount of money and lengths a mage will go to to acquire some of them.



Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Mina on 24 August 2007, 18:34:43
True.  We've not properly defined what it is reagents actually do anyway. 

However, I also want to point out that reagents are often not terribly expensive or hard to aquire.  Some are, but many are fairly easy to come by. 


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Fox on 24 August 2007, 18:46:23
True.  We've not properly defined what it is reagents actually do anyway. 

However, I also want to point out that reagents are often not terribly expensive or hard to aquire.  Some are, but many are fairly easy to come by. 

Most are, but it is still a monetary expense. People aren't going to buy things just because it helps them concentrate without any real effect at all. And I'd imagine higher level spells would need more of those very rare reagents that are not commonly carried.


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Mina on 24 August 2007, 19:22:27
Perhaps. 

How about if 'reagent' is actually a fairly vague term that is applied to pretty much anything used for spellcasting, whatever they actually do?  Then we could have things that have a direct effect (what you're suggesting), things that just helps one concentrate (how we commonly talk about it nowadays), things that are indirectly helpful (eg. tareptail seeds might help with casting wind-generating spells, as they can help one see how the wind is moving), things that are traditional (self-explanatory, I think), etc. 


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Lady Cherri on 25 August 2007, 06:39:49
If anyone could enlighten me as to any up-to-date list of spells, formulas and reagents it would be useful to help point new mages towards so that they learn how to cast correctly.  As I was corrected by josephine on the RP side of things that the lists in the compedium is not accurate it would be helpful.  Thanks.


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Fox on 25 August 2007, 07:23:17
If anyone could enlighten me as to any up-to-date list of spells, formulas and reagents it would be useful to help point new mages towards so that they learn how to cast correctly.  As I was corrected by josephine on the RP side of things that the lists in the compedium is not accurate it would be helpful.  Thanks.

There is no up-to-date list, but there is an out-of-date list:

Earth Magic Spells needing to be updated
1. Bone Calling
4. Guise of Bones
5. Animate Dead
5. Call to the Beast
5. Raise Skeleton
6. Bone Calling

Fire Magic Spells needing to be updated
1. Flame Control
1. Rise Flame
1. Searing
2. Boiling Blood
2. Light
4. Burning Regeneration
6. Blazing Shield
7. Rays of Heat
10. Extended Life

Water Magic Spells needing to be updated
4. Water Extraction
7. Fever of Nightmares
7. Spear of Frost

Wind Magic Spells needing to be updated
1. Vanish
2. Sense Aura
2. Shape Smoke
2. Wind Walking
3. Cloak of Shadows
3. Insubstantial Shield
3. Spectral Sight
3. Static Trap
4. Aura Sight
5. Chimaera
7. Touch of Fate
7. Void Breath
8. Phase Shift


No formulas are up-to-date at this point in time because the proper system for them has not yet been developed. Reagents are applicable, though how they actually work, as discussed above, hasn't been elaborated on yet. As I said on the RP board, mage players need to learn the proper mechanics for spell casting so they can make up and describe their own spells to meet the situation within their level of power rather than choosing ones from a list.


Just going over the low-level (1-3) spells (the ones most RP mages have access to) that are up-to-date, we have:

Level 1-3 Up-to-Date Earth Spells
1. Sanguinary Block
1. Solidify
2. Iron Will
2. Weaken Resolve
3. Break
3. Colossal Weight
3. Impale
3. Shield of Stone

Level 1-3 Up-to-Date Fire Spells
1. Quell Flame
1. Sparkling Stream
2. Extinguish
2. Injeran Touch
3. Edict of Terror
3. Fiery Minion
3. Fireball, Quilrosh's
3. Grip of the Malefic
3. Shroud of Radiance

Level 1-3 Up-to-Date Water Spells
1. Animal Protection
1. Calm
2. Distract
2. Ice Touch
3. Area of Frost
3. Frost Shield
3. Shape Water

Level 1-3 Up-to-Date Wind Spells
1. Conjure Wind
1. Reflection
2. Confusion
2. Enlightenment
2. Hide
3. Clap of Thunder
3. Telekinesis
3. Thievish Winds
3. Wind Exile


Which is a very small repertoire of available effects for those levels.



Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Twen Araerwen on 25 August 2007, 12:28:30
Fiery Minion is banned/restricted and only accessible to those with knowledge in this area. This is in the restrictions thread. Also most of the Necromancy spells should be included in banned/restricted unless the players are directly written as practitioners in this form of fire magic. Most of the other Necromancy spells were written after Fiery Minion and have not been listed as restricted ..... as they should be.

Ghastly Guardian ~ Basically an advanced practice of the Fiery Minion spell.
Dark Stability ~ Only useful to a Necromancer in the upkeep of their undead minions.
Twilights Edifice ~ Coming to a forum near you .... very soon Fox  ;)


Title: Re: Quick Clarification Requested
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 05 September 2007, 04:49:11
This list (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,11272.0.html) has both up to date and out of date spells.