Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => People of the World of Caelereth => Topic started by: Fox on 04 September 2007, 09:55:33



Title: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Fox on 04 September 2007, 09:55:33
*waves*

Okay, I've been thinking lately... and have been getting somewhat annoyed over how Utopian of a society Santharia seems to be at this point in time. ;) While we may have political disputes, thief undergrounds, and trade concerns, Santharia doesn't seem to have any globally controversial issues kicking around... issues that could reasonably cause violent reactions and clear divisive sides among society, even with powerful political support for the "wrong" side. At least from a general look-see on my part.

So, what I was planning on was to bring up the issue of magic as a controversial subject, due mainly in that magic is what I enjoy as well as it has numerous dichotomies that can be debated over as well (IE, whether clerics are considered "proper" and only Ximaxian/non-religious magic is seen as wrong, the treatment of elves and other 'magically tuned races', etc.)

My proposal would be a political faction is aiming at banning magic and demonizing its practitioners. I was thinking that this faction does not have much direct power in the upper ranks of nobility, but due to a very strong grassroots support, is steadily gaining power, enough to put a good deal of pressure on Ximax. The implications of this would be that magic would become largely reviled by the common folk, where most of the support for magic comes from high nobility (which furthers peasant resentment who believe that magic is only accepted in the courts because the mages are corrupt nobles who are using bribes and sorcery to keep their political power).

I'm asking for approval to go with this route as, until now, I was under the impression that magic is something we've established as being fairly commonly accepted. I'd like to give it a powerful political and peasant opposition that would make it so that mages have to worry about being resented by those not like them, and that their rights are actually something that could be at stake depending on how the movement progresses.


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 04 September 2007, 12:11:30
I, for one, am in support of this, Fox.  Like you, I want to see some controversy in this world.  It is a bit too utopian for my liking.  (Hence my Remusian revision, and my cult....though i REALLY need to get back to that again).

So, my humble vote (like i get a vote, lol) is for you to be able to develop this, though I see this as a LOT of work.


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 04 September 2007, 15:08:02
Not much time now, as I'm at work: But yes, of course this is something I fully support! More comments later.


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Takór Salenár on 04 September 2007, 19:10:25
This seems to be a nice concept at first sight, but I don‘t know, if it will work as you lined it out.

Before I display my argument against it, I want to remind you all who don‘t like the „Utopian“ feeling of our current time that we did agree, that the last, say 30 years, are a peaceful time with not much trouble in Santharia, the precondition of a kind of renaissance where the arts and the „science“ flower, inventions are made and ships are sent out to explore. This has started already with Grothunc the Wise but finds its culmination under Tiandor.

Fox, my  argument against your current layout is that you can‘t fear, what you don‘t know. As I understood, mages are rare, even if Ximax has a fair number of absolvents (don‘t think at the many on the RPG-board) they are spread very thinly and so a commoner might not see one in his entire life. Why then should he fear him?

We discussed some  time ago that we might increase the number and find an occupation for them like helping  building houses or a bridge etc, or whatever (though we could need some spells in this regard and thoughts about spells which are not just used for battle), some might be in the bigger and smaller cities to find the magical gifted children.

I don‘t see how they should „draw aggro“ (I‘m definitely playing too much WoW ;) )

As the history table says, war related magic was lost:

172 to 547    The Golden Age of Kings
Throughout this age, Ximax grows in knowledge and magical power, though war-spells are slowly, surely, and happily lost.


So I don‘t see, why Ximax should be a thread for those who know it and their absolvents a bit better.

I don‘t find it a good idea to involve Elven magic as long as we don‘t know how it looks like. Maybe the humans - and I think this might well be only a human conflict - don‘t recognise the elven magic at all. Do elves and humans normally mingle  frequently? I don‘t think so (except in places like Seraia).

Maybe it would be an idea that the elves oppose now Ximaxian magic as unnatural- but for this we need to put Elven magic down first.

Who then could be against Ximaxian magic? Better educated people, landlords etc who know about mages and magic, but can‘t afford their services themselves?

Before we start to create such a conflict, we should define and know the the different kinds of magic better.

And at this point I have spend quite a time thinking. ;)

But I post this in an extra thread. (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,11989.0.html)(Magic - a classification)


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin on 04 September 2007, 19:47:44
Quote
Fox, my  argument against your current layout is that you can‘t fear, what you don‘t know.


Takor, my friend, I think that history has proven over and over that not knowing is precisely why people hate.  Rumour, inuendo, assumptions, these are the lifeblood of hate.  A powerful group of people with mysterious powers, kept distant from the common people.... sounds too easy for false info to spread. ;)

gypsies....jews.....black africans.....and many more suffered persecution because of misguided belief....

north american native shaman were not allowed to perform magical rites.... buddhist monks were persecuted for healing.... others as well, but its 4 am...mind has stopped.....

I do agree that it will be difficult to integrate properly.


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Takór Salenár on 04 September 2007, 19:58:14
Maybe I should have worded it differently:
You don't hate somebody you are not really aware that he exists.

I think these people have other problems than to hate somebody who don't touches their lives. They are no threat.

You need to encounter those you hate at least a tiny bit, the Gypsies on the fair, the black people or the Jews in your neighbourhood. You don't need to know them, that is true, otherwise you might not hate them anymore.

Why should common people bother about persons who are so far away? They have other problems

"north American native shaman were not allowed to perform magical rites" - I think they were  known a little bit.. they were threatening the "daily life" because they showed that things might be different than the normal (white) people thought...


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Fox on 04 September 2007, 20:45:20
Hmm, you do raise an interesting concern, Takor. The way I was thinking it was that people would spread rumors and false information, and that it is the very reason that people have not met mages that they believe those rumors and so on.

I was thinking, that this movement would try and build on that kind of fear by, at least in certain cities, publishing notes and conspiracies blaming various real life disasters on some mage. And that, plenty of times people who aren't even real mages would get persecuted because people believe that they are a mage and had some kind of involvement with said disaster (IE, a bridge falls down while it is being constructed and there just so happens to be a fisherman rowing along the river at the time, and the people blame him for "magically" causing the bridge to tumble. Or say people pray to Jeyriall for a good harvest and instead the harvest turns out badly, propaganda could be spread to blame "mages" (even if no mages are actually around) for the bad harvest, tainting the boon and denying Jeyriall.). Something along the lines of how witchcraft in the middle ages (in regards to unjust persecution only, not any of the warts/brooms/etc stuff of modern creation) or the Red Scare in the mid 1900s in democratic countries were overly hyped and even though the rumors never actually were true, people thought they existed in very numerous quantities.


I was thinking that this movement would know that mages don't actually touch people's lives often. So instead, they build a propaganda machine in order to blame mages for every catastrophe that transpires, bringing them to the people's attention even if there are no actual mages around through which to blame. Ultimately it would be the landlords and noble people who are actually aware of mages on a realistic front who would be mobilizing this movement, and the way they would build the movement would be to put mages in a negative light through rumors and misinformation, fooling the common folk who don't know better.


Perhaps this movement could be one that doesn't have grassroots movement as I originally thought, but instead be a purely court debate. Then the common folk could not really care about Ximax, but instead be more wary of 'at-their-doorstep' magic, the Wild magic thing you mentioned in the other thread. Though I'd think the movement would try and build on that Wild Magic concern and then link it to Ximax in order to get grassroots support.



Quote
Before I display my argument against it, I want to remind you all who don‘t like the „Utopian“ feeling of our current time that we did agree, that the last, say 30 years, are a peaceful time with not much trouble in Santharia, the precondition of a kind of renaissance where the arts and the „science“ flower, inventions are made and ships are sent out to explore. This has started already with Grothunc the Wise but finds its culmination under Tiandor.

Was the Renaissance perfect in every regard, though? It has been a long time since I studied history of that era. I mean, it is possible for even model societies to have a bit of dirt and grime, I think?



Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Gwai'ayia Quillouf on 04 September 2007, 21:30:48
Takór Salenár said:

Quote
Before I display my argument against it, I want to remind you all who don‘t like the „Utopian“ feeling of our current time that we did agree, that the last, say 30 years, are a peaceful time with not much trouble in Santharia, the precondition of a kind of renaissance where the arts and the „science“ flower, inventions are made and ships are sent out to explore. This has started already with Grothunc the Wise but finds its culmination under Tiandor.

To which Fox responded with:

Quote
Was the Renaissance perfect in every regard, though? It has been a long time since I studied history of that era. I mean, it is possible for even model societies to have a bit of dirt and grime, I think?

Fox is indeed correct the Renaissance Era, depending on how define the era merely as the period of great art and scientfiic achievement or based on the rough guide of years which history books provide us, was nowhere near perfect.

Magic persecution was indeed common in actual history too.  This does not exclude the Renassissance Era from the 1350-1550 (give or take depending on definition of what is the Renassissance Era).

Witchcraft was indeed believed to practice, feared, and escewed as evil.  Things such as the evil eye, curses, and love spells were purchased commonly by nobles who wished to curse their enemies or to win a lover.  Also never has there been any time in history when the common people (losely defined as peasant and middle class) were not willing to blame their woes on a stranger passing through or lay the blame on a "witch" or "wizard" passing through.  History records many gyspies, old woman, and Jews being hung by the neck from being falsly accused of witch craft in this era also.

Know personally, I have lost the books which recorded this early trend of witch hunting, but there is another fact which turns the Renassiance Ugly.

There was in those days, certain schools called "Safe Houses" which were reputed to be of good social standing and were by order of the Catholic Church to "give education to those who have the mind to take but not money to fonder such a gift, and to provide for the simple needs of those who if but raised from the common mud of society could in pure heart and concisse take care of themselves".

These schools were grave yards in all but name.

Overseen by religious monks and various clerics of the Catholic Church, these "Safe Houses" were the dump grounds of oraphans, the malformed, the physically broken, the disabled, the blind, the mute, the lame, and the mentally retarded.  Nobles often used these places to put the children which to many centuries of inbreeding had created, and indeed any that rich society could not stand to know about and acknowledge.

These children, disabled, broken, or otherwise impared people were forced to work in basically slave labor.  They were also subject to various tests to "cure them".  There is even one famous case in 1419 of the priest taken two orpahned twins and talking to the one while being completly quite around the other.  Both were taken care of physically, but the lack of communcitation soon killed the child that heard no human speech for five years of its short life.  The other twin died shortly afterwards when the monks were experimenting to see how lighting effected the human body.

Countless died at these schools hands.  Society meanwhile turned a blind eye to these things.  And it wouldn't be to the 1940's-1960's till these schools were reveleaded for what they were, and disbanded.

So much for Utopia.

Now, I would be the last to foster such a dark thing on this world or any world for that matter, but I think for my part that a little political conversevity cannot but help expand the society's diversity a little and to break the honey coated unreality of Santharia.  No world is perfect.  And niether is this world.

Therefore I support Fox's idea, and I hope that it will prove as interesting to deal with as it is to discuss.


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Takór Salenár on 04 September 2007, 21:46:18
I never said that it should be an utopia, but we don't have to introduce all evils of that time here . Your long and detailed list of what evil things have happened at this time on earth doesn't prove that they have to happen!

The following was written without reading the last post.

Fox, I‘m feeling unwell when you just replace „witch“ with „mage“. I don‘t like very much to introduce at the recent time a society which was so paranoid - or evil - to take the next fisher as you say and blame him with the colliding of the bridge. I know there were times in the middle ages were women were accused to have the evil eye just because they went past a stable and then the newborn calf died - and then they burned. But this were ordinary women - I don‘t know why people should apply this thinking/this magic onto a normal fisher. 

I think what I don‘t like in this concept is its „generality“, that it is so broad spread without any reason. you say, the renaissance had its crime and bad sides as well, that might be correct, but I think the society has to be sane at least to a certain degree.

But I could imagine a  bit a differently set scenario.

What about:

Don‘t let this be the case just now, but a bit farther back in history, so that the main „illness“ is healed by now, maybe it was the case under the rule of (have to look at the rulers table first).

Let it have a beginning, a reason, let a complot stay at its beginning.

E.g. A group of mages with criminal powers and noble origin who did not well were expelled at Ximax. The founded a secret organisation with the goal to get revenge. They gathered others discontent people around them, talk evil against ximax and  get support from many (half-educated) people who have a resentment against Ximax. Mix in some fear originating in wild magic and you have your poisonous brew. The core of these mages and the persons they trust now form a plan to really do harm to Ximax and the mages. They spread rumours etc.. but not only that, they actually let bridges crumble and set then the rumour in the world. They may hire assassins and other criminals to do such errands. After some time the whole thing is running on its own.

Let this run for say, 50 years?By then the society is ill enough to need a cure. Then a king could step in and try to end this insanity and finally he succeeds, maybe even the plot comes into daylight.
My basically plead would be : give it a beginning and an end - before the current time. (there would always be some single cases left and not all doubts removed)



Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 04 September 2007, 23:25:01
This is similar to what I had in mind for the CotM, except it was more of a War for Magical supremacy then to abolish magic...


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Fox on 05 September 2007, 00:46:57
Quote
Fox, I‘m feeling unwell when you just replace „witch“ with „mage“. I don‘t like very much to introduce at the recent time a society which was so paranoid - or evil - to take the next fisher as you say and blame him with the colliding of the bridge. I know there were times in the middle ages were women were accused to have the evil eye just because they went past a stable and then the newborn calf died - and then they burned. But this were ordinary women - I don‘t know why people should apply this thinking/this magic onto a normal fisher.

That was more of an extreme example than anything else, my apologies. I didn't intend for it to go that far in terms of random bypassers being accused, but was just to get across the point of using propaganda to present a negative image without any mages actually having to be present.


Quote
But I could imagine a  bit a differently set scenario.

What about:

Don‘t let this be the case just now, but a bit farther back in history, so that the main „illness“ is healed by now, maybe it was the case under the rule of (have to look at the rulers table first).

Let it have a beginning, a reason, let a complot stay at its beginning.

E.g. A group of mages with criminal powers and noble origin who did not well were expelled at Ximax. The founded a secret organisation with the goal to get revenge. They gathered others discontent people around them, talk evil against ximax and  get support from many (half-educated) people who have a resentment against Ximax. Mix in some fear originating in wild magic and you have your poisonous brew. The core of these mages and the persons they trust now form a plan to really do harm to Ximax and the mages. They spread rumours etc.. but not only that, they actually let bridges crumble and set then the rumour in the world. They may hire assassins and other criminals to do such errands. After some time the whole thing is running on its own.

Let this run for say, 50 years?By then the society is ill enough to need a cure. Then a king could step in and try to end this insanity and finally he succeeds, maybe even the plot comes into daylight.
My basically plead would be : give it a beginning and an end - before the current time. (there would always be some single cases left and not all doubts removed)

Well, my goal was hopefully to foster some kind of controversial subjects in our current era. I mean, we have plenty of bad things that have gone on in history, just nothing current. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer darker struggles and periods of history, heh.

However, I do see your point. What we could do is tone it down so that the major bad stuff happens prior to our time, rather than outright end it. Say it starts violently, the king comes in and puts a stop to it. But this stop is not concrete, not all violent cases can be identified etc. So the organization reforms and reorganizes itself into a more politically correct movement, abolishes any ties with direct violence and rumor spreading, and then works by the laws of the kingdom to peacefully try and argue its point. Publishing essays, books, etc in an attempt to legally act against Ximax and magic users as a whole. There may still be isolated cases of extreme rumor spreading, but not as bad as, say, the extreme example that I listed before. But still enough to cause general suspicion (note that I personally don't want extreme examples either, but enough that mages are kept under a not so equal, but accepted eye. Like in today's world where racism and hate against certain types of people still exist, but that it is very subtle and subconscious, IE, we don't have the Red Scare anymore, but anyone who identifies them self as a Communist is going to be looked on at least a bit suspiciously...)



Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Fox on 05 September 2007, 00:49:07
This is similar to what I had in mind for the CotM, except it was more of a War for Magical supremacy then to abolish magic...

There could certainly be ties between the two. CotM would probably be in part built on countering the anti-magic movement, or in some way have a heavy hand in fighting against the movement once it arouse.



Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 05 September 2007, 03:35:24
I very much support any kind of conflict in Santharia as it makes things realistic. Especially a lot of superstition regarding magic coming from the normal folk is fully in order, same as conflict between scholars in Ximax fighting for a secular/scientific view on magic against others who want to go back to the roots the elven way. And the Ximaxians surely don't like necromacy as here they get also in conflict with clerics I assume etc. These conflicts make a society alive while in an Utopian society everything is solved and people live in eternal bliss. A living society is a society with irregularities, inequities, where there is tension between classes and people in general.

It is natural to be skeptical of all things magical considering what magicians are said to be able to do, and rumours feed superstition. And that these powers that the magicians possess are considered to be associated by some with evil nature. This regardless of the age we are living in. The question is the amount this takes, and letting it flare up for 50 years and disappear again is not to be desired in my point of view.

The conflicts with magic date back until the War of the Chosen, its abolishing and re-introduction and this is a conflict that is for me deeply rooted in fantasy world design. Conflict makes everything interesting, so while there might have been a time where this conflict broke out openly, it should still be prevalent and people fighting against magic in the one way or the other should be still organized, maybe as a much more secret organization than initially, but I don't see a reason why this conflict should end. It provides great possibilities for currents stories, gives the role players something to play with and is generally a good thing for fantastic world design. - Great idea, I'm all for it with little restrictions.


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 05 September 2007, 05:33:32
I don't really see how this could be a true organization given the previous arguments on how rare mages are. That doesn't mean there won't be any superstition, just that it isn't organized.


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Fox on 05 September 2007, 05:53:33
I don't really see how this could be a true organization given the previous arguments on how rare mages are. That doesn't mean there won't be any superstition, just that it isn't organized.

We have an entire city built for and by mages, a city that is actually the capital of a whole province. That's hardly what I'd call 'rare'. Individual magi may not be present in a person's everyday lives, but that doesn't mean they are rare enough that nobody knows or cares about them.

We have groups in the modern world that are far rarer than mages that are both backed and opposed by organized political movements.


Ximax itself is a political movement and has enough sway in the courts to be given legitimacy. There is no reason that there would not thus be a counter movement against Ximax's legitimacy. Then once such a political movement forms, the way that movement manipulates its resources determines how popular it becomes and how well it can build grassroots support. And building grassroots support does not necessarily need those people to actually have a clue about what they're supporting, with enough propaganda you can accomplish anything. To use the extreme example, people can be made to believe that 50% of their neighbors are actually mages, no matter how rare 'real' mages actually are!



Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Takór Salenár on 05 September 2007, 06:04:42
Ximax city is not entirely inhabited by mages, but by common people, as the province. The mages are learning and teaching at the academy, and there might be servants without magical inclination. and Santharia is big, so the absolvents disperse!

However, your last part might be true at times.


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Fox on 05 September 2007, 06:14:02
Ximax city is not entirely inhabited by mages, but by common people, as the province. The mages are learning and teaching at the academy, and there might be servants without magical inclination. and Santharia is big, so the absolvents disperse!

I wasn't implying that every person in Ximax was a mage. Most aren't. But it is the City of Magic. When people look at Ximax, they cannot help but think about magic. It doesn't matter even if the city is only populated by 0.5% mages... it is globally viewed as a city of magic. In other words, magic is well-known enough to be a constant of the world. IE, it's not so rare as people will go 'magic, oh that stuff doesn't exist'.

Rarity is a point of view, in my opinion. Even if the physical numbers of mages is very few, magic as a whole is very large and well known as not a strange mysterious medium, but as something where there exists an official organization that can be reached by anyone who wishes to. Physically, individual mages are rare. But in terms of global impact, they are profoundly important.



Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Takór Salenár on 05 September 2007, 06:44:19
Yes, but I don't think that the people think at Ximax first, they will see more the daily magic, Ximax is just one aspect and far away, at least for half the country.

***********
Some  more ideas and comments.


Maybe we should clear up some things, especially terms first.

Utopia - I do not see that there is a danger that the current Santharia would be this way as most people understand „Utopia“ (in a Utopian society everything is solved and people live in eternal bliss) . I don‘t see any single entry which would point in this direction. Fact is, that not much or nothing is written at all and only „peaceful time“ might be interpreted in this way.

What is „peaceful“ - and is it still desired? Many of the older developers who wished it this way are not here often anymore and I don‘t remember if Art agreed or was just outnumbered.

„Peaceful“ means for me if a society is concerned that not only no major wars occur, but that the society itself is „sane“ and „healthy“ to a certain extent. That does not mean, that there are no conflicts in this society,  riots or opposition, even violent ones to the government. It is a matter of how serious or widespread they are.

When I asked for a beginning and end I meant an open conflict which endangers the whole society as does a war. When nobody can sleep in peace for he has to fear his neighbour might accuse him of magic tomorrow just because he is jealous because he has a cow more than him, when things as the belief in the evil eye and much more in this way is not only believed, but has consequences. I would not call this a sane nor peaceful society and it is surely not the soil a country could thrive in how we had it planned for the last half century at least.

Of course superstition, misinformation and all such trouble which never ceases would still be present.   It is the amount of trouble which counts, which makes the difference between peace and war.

„Utopia“ ?? - I see here mostly the wish to describe evil and nasty things - how many wars have we described and how many peaceful times? (Thar and Santhros, and not even he has an entry yet) and what for „friendly“ approach to describe our current time has been attempted yet? None, so were is Utopia?

A last thought: We take the way magic is seen quite directly from our earthen medieval heritage. (Magic is evil, a lot of superstition is around.. ), but have we thought what for an effect might the difference between earth and Caelereth create, namely that magic is here real and back on earth not? Do the people here behave different because of that and if how?? Magic on earth is the unknown, but it is not as unknown here, wild magic can be encountered fairly easily, I assume. Anybody thought about that already?




Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Fox on 05 September 2007, 07:29:24
Utopia - I do not see that there is a danger that the current Santharia would be this way as most people understand „Utopia“ (in a Utopian society everything is solved and people live in eternal bliss) . I don‘t see any single entry which would point in this direction. Fact is, that not much or nothing is written at all and only „peaceful time“ might be interpreted in this way.

What is „peaceful“ - and is it still desired? Many of the older developers who wished it this way are not here often anymore and I don‘t remember if Art agreed or was just outnumbered.

„Peaceful“ means for me if a society is concerned that not only no major wars occur, but that the society itself is „sane“ and „healthy“ to a certain extent. That does not mean, that there are no conflicts in this society,  riots or opposition, even violent ones to the government. It is a matter of how serious or widespread they are.

What I personally meant as utopia was along the lines that, in a search through the site for current issues, I was unable to find any. We see numerous assassins, mercenaries, fighters, bodyguards, and so on on the RP board, and I continually find myself wondering -- how do these people find jobs? What do they actually do for a living when we have such a peaceful society? I jokingly suggested in IRC the other day that the CD mods should start telling new assassin characters to have a weakness of being unable to find any contracts because the massive amount of assassins in the world have already killed everyone who people wanted to be killed.

Now, I know that we shouldn't design the world for the RP board. And I do believe that a relatively peaceful, sane society is best. My thing was, that I really couldn't find any references at all to any conflicts whatsoever, serious or not. Maybe I just wasn't looking hard enough. Or, I am not sure if that is because we simply have not done very much history for the current era at all (where the Compendium is pretty much the only major history icon over the past 500+ years). I mean, what I see is a stable society, really. Where trade is active, society is building, no threat of wars, no threat of conflicts, and so on. A sane and healthy society, as you said.

I'm not necessarily saying that I desire wars, conflicts, etc, either. But what I was more looking for was something out there in our current era which people might be divisive on. In our modern era, we have very many things that are controversial, ranging from abortion, the war in Iraq, homosexuality and marriage, religion, etc. I was hoping for something like that in Santharia... where we have conflicts, without actually having conflicts. Divisive issues of the mind, rather than people running around spilling blood. 


My Utopia statement was probably flawed. All I meant was, that I felt modern Santharia was lacking any real non-criminal "dirt".


Quote
When I asked for a beginning and end I meant an open conflict which endangers the whole society as does a war. When nobody can sleep in peace for he has to fear his neighbour might accuse him of magic tomorrow just because he is jealous because he has a cow more than him, when things as the belief in the evil eye and much more in this way is not only believed, but has consequences. I would not call this a sane nor peaceful society and it is surely not the soil a country could thrive in how we had it planned for the last half century at least.

This is not what I am trying to do. I apologize if some of my examples were that extreme, but I am definitely not trying to go this route. I'd much rather have peaceful political movements backed by propaganda, where there is more court drama and controversial debate rather than any outright violence and nightly fear. I definitely am not trying to create something that is going to cause major societal disruption and threat of collapse etc. No witchhunts, Inquisitions, etc. Just a controversial subject that people might argue about over dinner time, a mage might worry that taxes in Ximax could go up or that he has to register as a mage when entering a new city as a result of new policies (but that such policies are *not* already in place), etc. Very minor issues of rights and suspicion and stuff, not all-out war at all.


Quote
„Utopia“ ?? - I see here mostly the wish to describe evil and nasty things

That is not my intent. As much as I may personally prefer working on those periods of history (mainly because I like brewing struggles where emotion on the characters and people is high), I do not want that for modern Santharia. I am looking for court and debate intrigue only, which thus allows some few isolated cases of things flaring up but ultimately is a non-violent movement.


Quote
A last thought: We take the way magic is seen quite directly from our earthen medieval heritage. (Magic is evil, a lot of superstition is around.. ), but have we thought what for an effect might the difference between earth and Caelereth create, namely that magic is here real and back on earth not? Do the people here behave different because of that and if how?? Magic on earth is the unknown, but it is not as unknown here, wild magic can be encountered fairly easily, I assume. Anybody thought about that already?

What I see personally is that magic has played a large part of history, a largely negative aspect. It is something used by those who are gifted, it is not something everyone has access to, which breeds jealousy. It is something that is often the partaking of nobility rather than the common person due to the money needed to attend Ximax. At the same time, people view it with awe and wonder, because it is something that they do not regularly see.

I personally prefer the 'rare and superstitious' over the 'common and light-hearted' approach. I am not a fan of how lightly magic has been used in other high fantasy worlds like Dungeons and Dragons, WarCraft, and so on, where enchanted items are everywhere, magic operates the simplest machines in every city, etc. I like magic as something that is rare, powerful, not understood, and is something that most non-magi simultaneously fear and awe.


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Takór Salenár on 05 September 2007, 15:57:01
Well, then, maybe it was just a misunderstanding or we didn't say clearly what we meant, what was intended. I never wanted the Santharian society to be more peaceful than ours, but Europe did have by now nearly 60 years of peace (despite the riots in France, the different mafias throughout the whole continent and racial motivated beatings in eastern Germany) and that's what I envisioned for the last years of our current time. Enough space for assassins. (And yes, one that finds no work might be interesting to play! ;) )


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Mina on 06 September 2007, 00:43:19
I think, during the Santhmoot, they laid down plans for a centuries-long conflict that only ended a few decades ago or something of that sort.  I don't remember it very clearly anymore, but I think there was a war with Shan'thai and something about a tyrant.  The thread is probably still in the history forum. 


Title: Re: People Proposal - Anti-Magic Political Movement
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 11 September 2007, 20:00:31
Ximax is the only city with enough mages to have an anti-mage movement IMHO. If you can count the mages of importance in your province on one hand, why bother having a political movement against them? In Ximax people also see the every day applications (the good side) of magic though, so if it has opponents they would be very few and not that influential.

Quote
We take the way magic is seen quite directly from our earthen medieval heritage. (Magic is evil, a lot of superstition is around.. ), but have we thought what for an effect might the difference between earth and Caelereth create, namely that magic is here real and back on earth not? Do the people here behave different because of that and if how?

People used to be/are afraid of things they don't understand, so mages would be looked at with a lot of superstition IMHO. I could easily see people chasing mages out of the city because their Light spell made the cows give sour milk or something. I don't see them discussing mages over a beer though, but rather tell spooky stories about those dense woods next door.