Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Magic in the Lands of Caelereth => Topic started by: Takór Salenár on 04 September 2007, 19:16:44



Title: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Takór Salenár on 04 September 2007, 19:16:44
Magic - an attempt to classify

I didn‘t intend to do this, but while thinking about „clerical“ (now divine) magic and their borders I was bound to come to this area as well. I don‘t know if it would fit for the menu, but somehow an „order“ has to be establish. Please note, this is just an idea, a proposal and not fully thought through and gathered, but with Fox‘ proposal of a magic opposition I thought I have to post it.

I did three main categories:

Secular Magic:
Mostly a „scientific“ approach, doesn‘t need any gods or other supernatural beings, mastering it needs quite a bit of learning or education
 - Ximaxian magic
- ??

Religious Magic:

All magic which is somehow connected with gods, higher beings,... ect. A certain amount of education and training is needed.

- Examples and more explanation can be found here (will come)



Wild Magic:


All that what would not fit under the above categories, be it truly magic or only thought to be magic by other people. It may be seen by the common folks as evil, but not necessarily so, but it has the flavour of „dangerous“. It varies with the magic users and the people who are witness it. So a midwife which knows something about herbs without any magical powers may well be seen as an evil person with magical powers by other people (probably men in this case) who do not understand what she does.

A sidenote before I try to give some examples: I wished we would try to avoid the term „witchcraft“ and „witch“ not entirely, but as often as possible. Both words are associated with such a plethora of (from person to person) different images that it would not help the view of this part of magic we want to build here in Caelereth.

There is the picture (I would not like to see  here) as old woman with a big nose and a wart on it and a back crooked with osteoporosis. Others have the picture of a young modern woman of our days in their mind. How does our witch look like? Whom would we call a witch? Let us use other names where possible or at least DEFINE it properly.

Now, this list is surely not complete, but it shows in which direction I would go . Principally I would name here all magic without education, or without proper education:


- the gifted child which never received an education and has eventually created some own „spells“, that could be songs, a fixed rhymed simple poem...
- the gifted child who never became a priestess of Seyella despite her abilities (clairvoyance)
- the cleric who did not finish his education , who is torn apart between belief and non belief, but uses his powers anyway, but in a way no priest would think is a good way (didn‘t think about this longer)
- the herb woman who has learned some magic from another herb woman
- midwife (birth is seen as a magical process, at least the way how the child was received??)
- the dyer who uses his „powers“ to make the colour more
- Macantis
- BBR
- the want to be druid
- conjurers
- enchanters (persons who say they could enchant a sword so that it doesn‘t break..)
- persons (maybe partly educated) who try to do „dark „ magic in a way, be it they try to summing demons or do any other magical experiments OUTSIDE Ximax and outside the frame the clerics provide.

This list could be much longer, I just run out of ideas.

Basically all sort of magic which is not channelled in a way, raw, but fake magic (people who pretend to be able to do magic) as well. Basic magic the people don‘t understand , magic without restrictions, without defined goal (as Ximax sees it). Most times it would be „small“ magic, but there could arise as well a mage with the power of an arch mage or a great priest.


To get back to Fox‘s proposal (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/board,40.0.html) - I think it would make more sense to „persecute“ these people. But that would not be an action from the lower ranks again the higher, that could be quite mixed. Common people might be opposed to this kind of magic in parts,  they need it, but probably more the middle ranks, not educated enough to stand above, but wealthy enough not to need it, but nevertheless afraid of what they do not know. The nobility wouldn‘t care, I think, it is not touched by it (mostly)


Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Fox on 04 September 2007, 20:54:06
Yeah, I'd like to see those things be not very well tolerated. In fact, the intoleration of those could lead to an intoleration of Ximax ("what? A place where they train these kind of people!"). It of course depends on how much of these wild magic people there are around. And I do like the name 'Wild Magic', very cool. :D


I assume the proposal is to write an entry on Wild Magic? To compliment the Ximax and Clerical magic entries. I'd be in support of that.


Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Mina on 05 September 2007, 02:57:32
'Profane' sounds weird here.  I think the word you want is 'arcane', though I'll prefer a simple 'secular', which covers the less scientific non-religious magics as well, such as the Brownie forms. 

As for religious magic, I think there could be another class, aside from 'divine', which deals with 'equal beings', basically shamanism and the like. 

And yes, 'wild magic' sounds cool.   :D  I'm not sure 'wild' applies to all the examples, but it's cool nonetheless. 


Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 05 September 2007, 05:37:41
Maybe go with Religious Magic instead of Devine? Since that might work better to put shamans and such under it as well?


Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Takór Salenár on 05 September 2007, 06:06:34
Right, then it shall be "Religious Magic" and secular, but what do you understand under "equal.beings", Mina?


Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Takór Salenár on 05 September 2007, 16:14:41
Fox, I know you want to write this "witchkraft" entry (=wild magic?). I had an idea concerning "witches" tonight. As I proposed already above, why don't we not define it properly, picture a person with special characteristics we call witch. It could or should well be evil, but not to blame t(mostly) the females again, I thought we could introduce a new name

The witcher, female form witch, what they do witchery?


I have just a few basic ideas yet for them:

First - they do not exist from the developers point of view. But the people believe they exist and suspect people they do not understand to be such "witchers". That could be the wife of a neighbour who grew up in a totally different culture (an Eyelian in Voldar), that would often be a member of the BBR.

Associated characteristics: Shapeshifting - mainly from a old person (which they are) to a young person, mostly with the purpose to be able to deceive other people, but to do any wrong more easily. Maybe they are even thought to be able to shapeshift in an animal to get easier into buildings  or so.
Well, not much more ideas - I just started thinking.

But what I really would like to is, that not only women are affected again.

And I would like to write this up, now and at once (sometimes this hapens to me), but I have other (RL) things on my shedule.


I hope nobody will suffocate from laughing again because this new word means something else - my dic didn't know it!


Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Fox on 05 September 2007, 20:39:01
Fox, I know you want to write this "witchkraft" entry (=wild magic?). I had an idea concerning "witches" tonight. As I proposed already above, why don't we not define it properly, picture a person with special characteristics we call witch. It could or should well be evil, but not to blame t(mostly) the females again, I thought we could introduce a new name

The witcher, female form witch, what they do witchery?


I have just a few basic ideas yet for them:

First - they do not exist from the developers point of view. But the people believe they exist and suspect people they do not understand to be such "witchers". That could be the wife of a neighbour who grew up in a totally different culture (an Eyelian in Voldar), that would often be a member of the BBR.

Associated characteristics: Shapeshifting - mainly from a old person (which they are) to a young person, mostly with the purpose to be able to deceive other people, but to do any wrong more easily. Maybe they are even thought to be able to shapeshift in an animal to get easier into buildings  or so.
Well, not much more ideas - I just started thinking.

But what I really would like to is, that not only women are affected again.

And I would like to write this up, now and at once (sometimes this hapens to me), but I have other (RL) things on my shedule.

Well my original goal with a new witchcraft design was to be something that wasn't entirely evil at all but more a whole new religious system based partially but not entirely on real modern witchcraft (and thus there wouldn't primarily be stigmata against females... IRL both males and females are witches, warlocks are something else entirely. I do like the witcher term, though!). Something very nature oriented, sort of druidic/shaman-like in nature but based on its own principles.

There would naturally be both those who used those powers for what they were intended as well as those who would abuse that power. As both come under the classification of Wild Magic, it would be something that people would naturally see as evil due to not understanding.

I was planning on it to be something that does exist from a developers point of view but that is not evil, it is just another religion and minor magic system. And that it would come under fire from the population more out of superstition over Wild magic as well as people not liking the idea of a new religion. And of course the presence of some few 'bad witches/witchers' would harm the sect's reputation overall.


I'm not sure, if that route would be preferable in your point of view. I did have most of a rough entry for it done last time I was here but a computer reformat killed the whole thing and I never got around to rewriting it.



Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Takór Salenár on 05 September 2007, 21:08:12
Fox,  I like your approach above. My main concern was not to take the term "witch" with its undefined or multicoloured meaning we have on earth without thinking . If you like to call those you described above witch/witcher I'm ok with it. The phenomen  I had in  mind  can have another name as well.

Could you tell me a bit more about that small religion as you call it? Maybe I can include it already in my genral entry. I need a name! (should it be witchcraft?)


Or maybe Witcher's Craft?


Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Fox on 05 September 2007, 21:31:29
I was planning on calling it Witchcraft, yes. Or do you prefer Witcher's Craft? Either way I don't mind.

I never got around to really detailing the religious aspects of it when I had been working on it and as it's been quite some time since I've worked on it I don't remember a lot of my ideas. It was something along the lines of nature worship of course, believing in that every object/person/thing etc has its own unique spirit, and that one might commune with these spirits to find wisdom, advice, etc for one's everyday lives. Magic is performed by performing rituals that serve to either appease or anger or even control these spirits. If I recall correctly I didn't have any major deities for them, it was all along the lines of spirits. Of the spirits there were several classifications. Major spirits and lesser spirits. Major spirits are the combination of multiple lesser spirits, working in unity.

I had drawn some rough drafts of a runic system along these lines (IE major spirit runes were simply a combination of lesser spirit runes), I believe I showed you one of them before.


That's most of what I can remember right now. I'd have to find my notes to see if there was more I'd come up with.


Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Bard Judith on 05 September 2007, 23:56:31
Alternate and archaic spellings sometimes help to soften or avoid the 'modern' connotations of some words.  Just a couple of sans' worth of ideas here - feel free to ignore!   Oh, and please remember that while I dislike the mere substitution of 'y' for 'i' in an attempt to 'look medieval', in many cases there was authentic precedent for the switch from 'y' to 'i', so don't disregard it altogether!

Sidenote:  I have to say that I love Takor's idea (suggested eons earlier as I recall, as well) of many different magic-abled folk who do not 'fit' the definitions or standards - a young girl who sees visions, a old woman with 'healing hands', a youth of eighteen who can 'predict' the weather, a blacksmith who has never been burnt (because, unconsciously, he can control the element of Fire to serve him so effectively), a priest who can 'bend' the minds of his flock ever so slightly 'away from evil' by his sheer force of will - are a few more to perhaps add to the list!  I hope that doesn't get 'lost in the shuffle' of discussion around this, and around Fox's other proposal...

Anyhow, here's a bit of brainstorming for you...

Wytch

Hwytch

Wijch

Whych

Or why not go back to source:  "Middle English wicche, from Old English wicce, witch, and wicca, wizard, sorcerer."

'Wicce'  would be perfectly authentic - and you could make it for both males and females, and make the plural 'wiccen' or 'wicchen'.

And this provides some ideas:

"weg-

DEFINITION: To be strong, be lively. Oldest form *we-, becoming *weg- in centum languages.
Derivatives include watch, vigilante, reveille, and velocity.
1. Suffixed o-grade form *wog--. wake1, from Old English wacan, to wake up, arise, and wacian, to be awake, from Germanic *wakn. 2. Suffixed o-grade form *wog-no-. waken, from Old English wæcnan, wæcnian, to awake, from Germanic *waknan. 3. watch, from Old English wæccan, to be awake, from Germanic *wakjan. 4. Suffixed form *weg-yo-. Wicca, wicked, witch; bewitch, from Old English wicca, sorcerer, wizard (feminine wicce, witch), from Germanic *wikkjaz, necromancer (<*one who wakes the dead*). 5. bivouac, from Old High German wahta, watch, vigil, from Germanic *wahtw. 6a. wait, from Old North French waitier, to watch; b. waft, from Middle Dutch and Middle Low German wachten, to watch, guard. Both a and b from Germanic *waht-. 7. Suffixed (causative) o-grade form *wog-eyo-. vegetable, from Latin vegre, to be lively. 8. Suffixed (stative) form *weg--. vigor; ravigote, from Latin vigre, to be lively. 9. Suffixed form *weg-(e)li-. vedette, vigil, vigilant, vigilante; reveille, surveillant, from Latin vigil, watchful, awake. 10. Suffixed form *weg-slo-. velocity, from Latin vlx, fast, *lively*."    (Thanks to Yourdictionary.com and others)


Well!  With all that to work with, how about:

Weccan

Weggan

Wheg & Whegga (male and female) - who use 'whegcraft'

Whecci & Whecca

Interested in any of these, Fox?


Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Takór Salenár on 06 September 2007, 00:06:11
Thanks Judy, that was a great input! I would not go too close to "wicca", "wiccan" etc, that's the modern word.

Fox, mark all her ideas for your "wild magic" entry!

But that was not what I wanted to say.

Fox, when you work with these spirits, try to avoid too many similarities with the

 Eyelian Belief (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/eyelians.htm#Belief)

and the

Druidic Magic (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,11592.0.html)



Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Fox on 06 September 2007, 00:16:03
I'll keep all those terms in mind and see if I can come up with something from that, Judith, thanks. :)


@Takor: I'll have to take a look at those other beliefs. I haven't really read too much into either so any similarities are purely coincidental. But I'll try and see if I can differentiate. :)


Title: Re: Magic - a classification+proposal of a new kind
Post by: Mina on 06 September 2007, 00:34:17
Quote
Right, then it shall be "Religious Magic" and secular, but what do you understand under "equal.beings", Mina?
Well, basically not all supernatural beings are of superior status, at least according to certain religions.  For example, animistic beliefs, if I'm not mistaken, generally involve spirits that are of more or less equal status to people, rather than gods who are almost a sort of supernatural royalty.