Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Languages and Runes => Topic started by: Grunok the Exile on 03 December 2007, 04:22:52

Title: Serphelorian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 03 December 2007, 04:22:52
Well, this is now pretty much ready to go! 

I have done the last names by myself, and taken out the commonality and origin information from the whole names (both first and last).  This should make the whole thing simpler.  If people are interested in how common a name is, or where or when it comes from, they can still work it out from the name parts.

Overview (also the excerpt to be used in the Tribe entry)
Serphelorian first names are quite different from those of their neighbouring tribes, and as such are quite easy to spot.  Feminine names are typically long, and somewhat sharp sounding, beginning with letters such as K, Q, X and Ch.  Names for men are much shorter and much rounder sounding, starting with letters like B, G, M and A.

Traditional last names of this tribe indicated who the head of the person’s family was by incorporating part of their name.  This could refer to their mother, their grandmother, or in the case of some older families (and in current times, most families), a famous ancestor.  For centuries now, many Serphelorians have had Avennorian blood, so it is also common for Serphelorian families from Manthria to have a last name which comes from that tribe, or is a mixture of the two naming systems. 

The Serphelorians have their own versions of the Tharian Mister, Missus, Miss and Master, and a respectful ‘Sir’ equivalent, as well as titles which are given to esteemed members of the community.  These are all commonly used in areas where Serphelorians predominate.  While these are not the only titles used there, you can even hear women being addressed as 'Va-kai' in New Santhala.

For the Tribe entry:  More information on Serphelorian first and last names, and titles and their usages, can be found here (link to full entry).

First Names

Female Names
First names for Serphelorian women usually have four or three syllables; only rarely will they have fewer than this.  Some examples of common, less common and rare beginnings and endings are provided below.  Some conventional middle syllables are also provided, before a list of some whole first names.

Feminine Beginnings

Chy-, Chyli-, Chyla-,
Ga-, Gaia-, Gae-,
Ji-, Jie-, Jaia-, Jaiar-,
Ka-, Kai-, Kaiaph-, Kaiacer-, Kala-, Ke-, Kai-, Kland-, Kla-, Kle-,
Ly-, Lycha-, Lyce-, Lycze-,
Qu-, Quat-, Ques-, Quia-, Quin-, Quera-,
Ru-, Rua-, Ruka-, Ruam-, Ruman-, Rukam-, Rue-,
Vez-, Veza-, Veze-, Vezi-, Vesa-,
Xy-, Xyli-, Xyla-, Xyle-, Xa-,

Less Common
El-, Els-,
Is-, Isa-, Isl-,
Kli-, Klind-, Kephi-, Kaiam-,
Sal-, Salor-,
Tar-, Taron-, Tarin-,
Xaxo-, Xajo-, Xari-, Xyka-, Xypha-, Xypho-

Cj-, Cij-, Cjean-, Cja-, Cjeth-, Cijeth-
(usually found in Enthronia)

Feminine Endings

-a, -ar, -ia, -lia, -aiar, -eia, -ria, -reia -vria,
-ian, -rian,
-ath, -vath, -veth, -kath, -zath, -reth

Less Common
-isath, -onia, -oria


Some of the more typical middle syllables in the names of Serphelorian women
-lo-, -lor-, -loph-,
-rit-, -rez-,

Examples of Serphelorian female names:

Chyzaveth, Chylaeia, Chylaritha, Chylia, Cjaloritha, Cjeana, Cjakazath, Cijoria, Chyrequa
Elrianvria, Elsrazar, Elkath, Elaiar, Elophreza
Gaezreia, Gaekazar, Garuzath, Gaonia, Gaoria
Isaveth, Islian, Isloria, Iskaphria
Jisaveth, Jilorqua
Kareza, Kaisrian, Karezath, Karezeia, Kairevath, Klariveth
Lycetana, Lyrezeia, Lyzath, Lyzophoria
Querithia, Quinphrolia
Ruamaiar, Rucathlia, Rukloveth, Rulia, Rurithar, Ruvath
Salreia, Salera, Salorqua
Tarkliria, Taronara, Tarezar
Vezarphrian, Vezelia, Vezerita, Vezimoreia, Vezalia
Xyphoriath, Xykavath, Xykazar, Xylavath, Xyleia, Xyliria, Xylophria, Xaphireia, Xaxoreia, Xajorian, Xajovria,  Xylionia, Xakath

Male Names
First names for Serphelorian men are short, usually of one or two syllables; rarely three.  In ancient times ‘-ley’ was the only ending for male names, and it and its newer version ‘-lay’ are still very common.  The ‘-ley’ ending now carries a somewhat diminutive or endearing connotation which the ‘-lay’ spelling avoids; however, many women will append the ‘-ley’ suffix to their man’s name, regardless of whether it usually carries it or not, as an endearment (e.g. ‘Amin’ becomes ‘Amley’).

During the patriarchal years the variety of men’s names increased greatly.  Although there still are not as many different options for naming male children in the Serphelorian style as there are for female children, there are certainly more than there once were.

Examples of common, less common and rare beginnings and endings, also split by how traditional they are, are provided below.  Some conventional middle syllables are also provided, before a list of some whole first names.

Masculine Beginnings

Common, Traditional
Br-, Brug-, Brut-, Burj-,
Ru-, Rut-, Ral-,
No-, Not-, Nol-,
Me-, Met-, Med-, Mej-

Less Common, Traditional
Raj-, Barj-

Common, Modern
Ge-, Get-, Gej-,
Am-, Art-,
El-, Eld-, Elg-, Elb-,
Ko-, Kor-, Kol-, Kog-,
Mi-, Mid-,
Tal-, Ti-, Tib-, Tig-, Tag-, Taj-,
Mert-, Meart-, Mort-

Less Common, Modern
Vo-, Vor-, Vog-, Voj-,
Et-, Etj-, Elj-,

Rare, Modern
Cj-, Cij-, Cje-

Masculine Endings

Traditional, Common

Modern, Common
-d, -g,
-ard, -arg, -arb,
-in, -on, -an

Modern, Less Common
-es, -os, -j

Examples of Masculine Names

Amley, Ames, Amin, Artes
Brugley, Brutley, Burjley, Bruley, Barjos, Barjes, Burjos, Burjon, Brug, Brard, Brelon, Brugard, Bruglay, Brutin, Brutisard, Bruton, Burjard, Burjin, Barjley
Cijes, Cjarb, Cjon, Cjele
Elin, Ed, Etley, Etjarb, Etjon, Eljamon
Gejlay, Ged, Geley
Kolard, Kolay, Kolquos, Korard
Migarb, Mertin, Mortlay, Morton, Meartin, Medarg, Mejarg, Mertley, Migos, Mikilay, Mortesard, Mej, Metley, Mejley
Noley, Notley
Ruley, Rutley, Raley,Rajley, Ralarg, Ralon, Ruxyon, Reg, Rud, Rajard, Ruchyos
Talon, Talquin,  Tagley, Tagard, Tajain, Tajarb, Tajin, Tajley, Tibard, Tiblay, Tilay, Tag, Tilyarg, Tagardon, Tajaron
Volceley, Vorley, Voron

Cj- is a rare non-gendered beginning, sometimes written Cij-.  It is believed to have originated in the group of Serphelorians who became part of the Caltharians. Cj is pronounced like “zh”; Cij is pronounced quite differently, with a soft ‘c’.

Last names

Serphelorian last names are constructed of two parts.  The first part (the ‘prefix’) is most commonly the name of a female ancestor, but it can sometimes be a male name, or an Avennorian title.  Whether a name or a title, they usually refer to a long-dead ancestor, and as such are family names which have been with the family for many generations.  However, they can also refer to a recent ancestor such as a parent or grandparent, epecially when that person is particularly well respected where they are from.  These first halves are often abbreviated, sometimes rather haphazardly! 

The second half of a Serphelorian last name is generally one of the normal Serphelorian suffixes; a list of these is provided below.  All these suffixes have meanings, indicating the relationship between the person who originally took the name to the person whose name is used in the prefix.  The area where the person who originally took the name came from can also often be discerned from the suffix of a last name.

The two halves are usually just run together into one word, but older names often have the traditional hyphen to join the parts.

Beginnings (by commonality, area)
Common, all: Any Serphelorian female name, almost always abbreviated.
Rare, all (although more likely south of New Santhala): Any Serphelorian male name, usually abbreviated.
Common, Manthria:  Any Avennorian name, often abbreviated.
Less common, Manthria: Any Avennorian Friering title, often abbreviated.

Endings (by area of origin)
It must be noted that meanings given here were relevant to the person who took or was given the name: they do not necessarily carry that meaning now.  Gender splits refer to the person who was originally given the name, not necessarily the person who now bears it.

Meaning ‘female / male belonging to’.  Used for female servants or invalids, or any male.
jervarn (f) / jerfarn (m)       Enthronia, e.g. Elsreth
j’van (f) / j’fan (m)         Western Sanguia, e.g. Brinsley, Vezash
jivarn (f) / jifarn (m)          North-central and northeast Sanguia, e.g. Hog, Xythrian Ridge
juvarn (f) / jufarn (m)       South-central and southeast Sanguia, e.g. Elverground, New Santhala
jouvan (f) / jouvfan (m)          Manthria

Meaning ‘sister’.  Could be used by both blood sisters and close friends.
beinxau                       South-central and southeast Sanguia, Manthria, e.g. Elverground, New Santhala, Chrondra
benxau                  Enthronia, e.g. Elsreth   
binxau                   North-central and northeast Sanguia, e.g. Hog, Xythrian Ridge   
bxau                   Western Sanguia, e.g. Brinsley, Vezash

Meaning ‘daughter’.  Could be used by both blood daughters and those who have learnt from the person.
jeinar                    South-central and southeast Sanguia, Manthria, e.g. Elverground, New Santhala, Chrondra      
jenar                   Enthronia, e.g. Elsreth               
jinar                    North-central and northeast Sanguia, e.g.    Hog, Xythrian Ridge   
jnar                    Western Sanguia, e.g. Brinsley, Vezash

Meaning ‘weakling of’.  A very old suffix, this was usually applied to males, or those who were under the protection of someone.  Names with this suffix usually use the hyphen to join it to the prefix.
jouja, juja, jija, jja            Most often from northern and central Sanguia, southern Enthronia

Meaning non-blood related sister, daughter or close friend, particularly through being kha-mates in the Army.
khabeinxau            South-central and southeast Sanguia, Manthria, e.g. Elverground, New Santhala, Chrondra
khabnxau             Enthronia, e.g. Elsreth   
khabinxau             North-central and northeast Sanguia, e.g. Hog, Xythrian Ridge   
khabxau                      Western Sanguia, e.g. Brinsley, Vezash
khajeinar               South-central and southeast Sanguia, Manthria, e.g. Elverground, New Santhala, Chrondra
khajenar              Enthronia, e.g. Elsreth               
khajinar               North-central and northeast Sanguia, e.g. Hog, Xythrian Ridge   
kjnar                   Western Sanguia, e.g. Brinsley, Vezash
khaxau                 South-central and southeast Sanguia, Manthria, e.g. Elverground, New Santhala, Chrondra
khxau                 Western Sanguia, e.g. Brinsley, Vezash

These Avennorian suffixes are found in people who were originally from Chrondra or other southern areas.
-skamm, -skomm, -skann, -skjann, -skun, -skjun                 Manthria

Examples of Serphelorian Family Names
Readers, please note that, like the first names, this is by no means meant to be an exhaustive list of family names.  If your name is not on this list, it is no slight to your family!

Chyjenar, Chykhxau, Chykjnar, Chyrukhabinxau, Cijeivarn, Cijervarn
Elinka-khajinar, Elszajuvarn
Gaiarbinxau, Gerrhildkhaxau
Jepprekjouvan, Jigekhabeinxau, Jiliskjunn
Kelophjenar, Kle-jija
Reikhajnar, Rejilivarn, Rutlejinar
Veirekskan, Vej’van, Vezijouvan, Vezime-jouja
Xarikajivarn, Xarjnar, Xyleaskamm, Xylibenxau   


While the Serphelorians now speak Tharian, they have retained a number of words from the old Sophronian tongue in their daily speech.  These words nearly all relate to concepts which are different in Serphelorian society to the way things are in Santharia generally.  Perhaps it is no surprise then, that titles, particularly gender-based titles, are one of these sets of words.

Earned titles, also known as honorifics, are a similarly a legacy of the old language.  Serphelorians may become Gravens, Duchesses and so on just as in other tibes, but there are some titles which are exclusive to this tribe.  ‘Kaiarxur’ is a particular example of a title which has stuck because it is difficult to translate.

There is a strong emphasis on using the appropriate title for each person in Serphelorian culture, which may seem strange in such a relaxed, carefree society as that of Serphelorians.  However it must be remembered that the Serphelorian culture is also a culture of warriors, particularly in the past.  Because of this it became important to be able to give the proper respect to members of this tribe, especially the women, thereby hopefully avoiding them wishing to attack you.  The system of titles described here has arisen over thousands of years to enable the proper respect to be given to the strongest people, while also enabling, in the spirit of katmoh, respect to be given by any member of the tribe to the smallest, least powerful member.

General titles

Female, of age:  Va     
Female, not yet of age:  Vaje  (va-ZHEY)               
Male, attached:  Vajou  (va-ZHOU)
Male, unattached:  Vaser  (VASer)             
Generic title of respect:  ‘-kai’ appended to gender- and age-appropriate title, or to name.

The title ‘Va’ is usually appended to a woman's first name (as opposed to the last name as in Tharian).  Va is never used by itself: calling a woman ‘Va’ without her name sounds childish or uneducated – beggars and poor children use it.  ‘Va-kai’ is more appropriate when the woman's name is not known.

Serphelorian women tend to prefer the traditional title ‘Va’, or ‘Va-kai’ to the Tharian equivalent ‘Missus’. The title Va-kai has even become somewhat well-known across the continent, with many women from other tribes, particularly those with a martial bent, using it instead of ‘Missus’ or ‘Miss’.

The traditional children’s titles (Vaje and Vaser) are still used for Serphelorians who are under the age of majority (around fourteen years of age in this tribe).  Also however, men of this tribe who are unmarried mustcontinue to use the child’s title, Vaser, in the traditional form.  This has led to a marked preference for the Tharian ‘Mister’ to the traditional title for unmarried men of age; the two titles are now used interchangably.  When ‘Mister’ is used, it is used with the first name, and the suffix indicating respect, ‘-kai’, is appended to it when necessary, just like with the traditional titles.

Below are some examples of the proper use of Serphelorian gender titles.

To a woman   
Name unknown, respectful (normal form):  Good morning, Va-kai, how may I assist you?
Name known, title only (normal form):  Good morning, Lyzenia-va, I hope the blade I sold you is still keen.
Name known, respectful:  Oh, Lyzenia-kai!  I hope the blade I sold you has not broken!

To a married man  
Name unknown, title only (normal form):  Good afternoon, Vajou!  Have you come to see my new jaeb-silks?   
Name unknown, respectful:  Good afternoon, Vajou-kai.  Would you like to see my new jaeb-silks?
Name known, title only (normal form):  Ah, Talgard-vajou!  Have you come to see my new jaeb-silks?
Name known, respectful:  Good afternoon, Talgard-kai.  Please let me show you my new jaeb-silks.

To a girl   
Name unknown, title only (normal form):  Good morning young Vaje, what can I get you today?
Name unknown, respectful:  Hello Vaje-kai, how kind of you to choose my shop!
Name known, title only (normal form):  Good morning Rumania-vaje, what can I get you today?
Name known, respectful:  Hello Rumania-kai, how nice to see you again!
To a boy, or unattached man 
Name unknown, title only (normal form):  Hello little Vaser.  He’s sent you to buy the eggs again?
Name unknown, respectful:  Hello, Vaser-kai.  Have you come to buy some eggs?
Name unknown, respectful, using Tharian 'Mister':  Hello, Mister-kai.  Have you come to buy some eggs?
Name known, title only (normal form):  Hello, Brutley-vaser.  Has he sent you to buy the eggs again?
Name known, respectful:  Hello, Brutley-kai.  How many eggs would you like today?
Name known, respectful, using Tharian 'Mister':  Good morning Mister Brutley-kai, how many eggs do you need today?

Honorific titles:

Kaiarxura (pl. Kaiarxurai)
The title Kaiarxura is generally bestowed upon people who have, over the course of their life, ‘proven’ themselves to be great in a way that the Serphelorians venerate. This can be by becoming a great warrior or a leader of the people, by being a particularly wise advisor to the community, or by becoming a scholar of great wisdom.  Mages, clerics, or nobles are no more likely than others to be acclaimed to the title, except insofar as they have a greater chance to show their bravery, wisdom, or to be seen protecting those who are vulnerable. It should be noted that the title ‘Kaiarxura’ is never bestowed by authority – it is always something that is acclaimed by the people who know the person: her village or social group. 

The word ‘Kaiarxura’ originally meant ‘proven warrior’, but now means something more like ‘proven leader’.  One may have the quality of being ‘kaiarxur’, but one is greeted as ‘Kaiarxura’.  The word comes originally from the light blue colour a warrior’s blue tattoos fade to when she has seen many battles. Men can also be called Kaiarxur in some cases, although this is rare and one of the highest honours the Serphelorians pay to their men.

Vaxytha (pl. Vaxythai)
This title is usually translated to the Tharian equivalent ‘wise woman’.  Vaxythai are elders who take an active interest in the welfare of their community, often being part of a council of vaxythai where these exist.  The title ‘vaxytha’ has more of a connotation of active use of power for the good of the community than the strictly honorific ‘Kairxura’.

There is a great overlap between this title and the title Kairaxura, but they are not equivalent.  Wise women are often, but not always, also kaiarxur; Kaiarxurai may become vaxythai, but not all do. 

Jakat (pl. Jakats)
Meaning ‘protector’, in a very active, aggressive sense, Jakat is usually translated as Queen (or King).  The title is now only used in the historical context to describe rulers of the Serphelorian kingdom, or the of one of the various sub-states that have existed in the past.

These titles always supersede the gender-appropriate titles, and '-kai'.  To call someone 'Va-kai' or 'Vajou' when you are aware that others are calling them 'kaiarxur' is to deny their right to that title; it means that you do not think they should be called kaiarxur.  This is only an insult when you have previously called them kaiarxur.  At other times it is a legitimate protest against the designation, and the person has no right to take offence.

These titles can be used in the old form, where they are appended to the end of the name, or, as is now common, they can be used in the Tharian form and put before, or used in place of, the name. 

In formal situations or literature, the traditional form should be used.  In the case of multiple titles, other Serphelorian titles should be appended in their order of importance in formal situations.

Informally, it is not necessary to mention more than the highest title. 

Any Tharian titles should always be placed at the front, as normal, both formally and informally.  These can be used instead of the Serphelorian title.

As with the gender-based titles, honorific titles are appended to the person’s first name.  Where the last name needs to be used it is either appended to the titles with a hyphen in the formal or traditional usage, or merely written after the last name when the Tharian form is used.  Last names are to a great degree de-emphasised in Serphelorian culture however, so this is not usually an issue.

Below are some examples of the proper use of Serphelorian honorific titles.  Where other titles are used, it should be remembered that these are independent of the title being discussed, but are examples of how these other titles might interact with the title in question.

Formal, discussing a Queen: 
The Serphelorian tribe owes much of its present form to Quesvath-Jakat-vaxytha-kaiarxur.

Informal, discussing a Queen:
The Serphelorian tribe would be completely different if it hadn’t been for the Jakat Quesvath.

Formal, introducing a wise woman:
Let me introduce the Baroness Salreia-vaxytha-kaiarxur, Lady Onved.

Formal, addressing a wise woman:
Thank you for seeing me, Salreia-vaxytha-kaiarxur.
Thank you for seeing me, Baroness Salreia.
Thank you for seeing me, Lady Onved.

Informal, addressing a wise woman: 
Good morning Salreia-vaxytha.
Good morning Vaxytha.
Good morning Vaxytha Salreia.
Good morning Baroness.
Good morning my Lady.

Formal, introducing a Kaiarxura:
Let me introduce the Duchess Quezreia-kaiarxura, Lady Xythria.

Formal, addressing a Kaiarxura:
Good evening, Quezreia-kaiarxura.
Good evening, Duchess Quezreia.
Good evening, Your Grace.
Good evening, Lady Xythria.

Informal, addressing a Kaiarxura: 
Good morning, Quezreia-kaiarxura.
Good morning, Kaiarxura.
Good morning, Kaiarxura Quezreia.
Good morning, your Grace.
Good morning, Duchess.

Title: Re: Sephelorian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 03 December 2007, 04:41:14
Cool thing, Grun! :D

I could add that to the name generator and buiid with it already - or you could try to install the thing and add stuff as you go along. Because eventually it's easier if one person has it all in the database and follows through a concept, builds names, sees how they look, then adds further syllables etc. Another person can still make suggestions on what syllables to add, though. - Ever installed SNG? Would be worth a look!

Title: Re: Sephelorian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 03 December 2007, 05:12:01
Hmm, I could have a look at that... but to be honest I'm not all that enthused about computer programmes...  they tend to annoy me  :p :blush:  Still, if I have time, I will definitely have a look.

Let me know if you like the syllables and then I can perhaps think about getting back to the original plan: writing Chrondra! :lol:

Title: Re: Sephelorian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 03 December 2007, 05:17:21
I could of course also pick up from here and continue myself with SNG, as I know the program inside out :) Though it isn't that difficult once you know how it works.

But I'd also love to see Chrondra developed, so if you like that better you might begin to make plans there already. :D

Title: Re: Sephelorian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 13 December 2007, 05:16:31
I haven't forgotten about this Grun, though I've had to deal with flat issues these days, and will have to get Santhworld up this weekend and next weekend a site update. However, during the Christmas holidays this will be one of my main projects to complete - so expect results still in this millenium... er... year I mean!  :cool:

Title: Re: Sephelorian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 13 December 2007, 08:18:10
Hehe, no problem Art - I know you are busy, and until the main tribe entry is ready to go up (expect a first submission soon) this doesn't need to be too much of a priority.

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 16 December 2007, 05:16:39
First post updated with other Sophronian language words; post title changed to Sophronian nomenclature to reflect the fact that most of it is about traditional Sophronian language.

In the naming scheme there are indications as to how modern naming is different from Sophronian naming, but this can still be changed to incorporate more Avennorian elements.  No need to incorporate Eyelian forms I would say, as these tribes I envisaged staying quite seperate, as the Eyelians perhaps wouldn't modernise as easily as other tribes... though this is of course up for discussion...

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 18 December 2007, 05:20:16
Point taken on the Eyelians - it's good thought to make these two tribes different, the Serphelorians/Sophronians more adapted to the environement, the Eyelians to a much greater degree maintaining their relation to nature.

Here's a detail on nomenclature I would suggest, concering titles: In order to make differences to other tribes I suggest to use hyphens in the titles.

For example:
- Avennorians have their titles in front "Jorn Tennils Snimardskun"
- Erpheronian have their titles in the second name "King Santhros the Wise of House Salazath"
- Sophronians could have titles like "Jak-xa Sophronia" or "Sophronia-jak" (protector, the "xa" doesn't have a proper meaning yet, just wanted to show possible variations)
- Eyelians will have a lot of quotation marks in their names and double consonants, like "Ey'yan'na". Things like that.

Just want to make the differences between the languages as visually different as possible, so that if you see a hyphen at the end of a name you can be pretty sure e.g. that this is a Sophronian name. - What do you think?

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 18 December 2007, 05:54:26
Hmm... could work, actually.

The original Sophronians probably would have had their titles after the names, as they would have spoken the Mynian language, which would have been a lot like the Kuglimz language (which of course has the descriptor after the noun). 

Using a hyphen to join them rather than an apostrophe isn't a big leap, especially as it was the Avennorians who might have been the first to write down names, given the Sophronians were nomadic and didn't write much if at all.

Quesvath-Kaiarxur, Quesvath-Jakat

Looks good actually.  I think, as far as titles go, I need to come up with words for

Male, unattached
Male, attached
Female, not yet of age
Female, of age

Will do so soon, and post them in the first post.

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 18 December 2007, 10:20:03
Titles up!

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 December 2007, 06:33:23
Ok, Grun, I've fed the SNG with th syllables you provided, just to give you a rough first idea what names are being generated. Note that the generator takes all the given syllables to use them between the beginning and the end syllables, regardless of gender. This proves to work pretty well, as the beginning and end syllables mostly define the character of a language, and if they are used in between this works towards language consistency. So we usually don't need to define middle syllables.

"Syllables" (as endings or beginnings) ideally should also contain a vowel, so that they can be combined better. For example using a single letter as a "common ending" isn't ideal, better is to define some longer syllables that have that "d" in it. For example I took "rud" as a complete syllable or "breg", from which I can form names like "Elrud" or "Etbreg".

I didn't look at which syllables should be more prominent than others yet, I just generated a bunch and picked those that sound interesting. I can do that in another step, this is just a first example. Let me know what you think of those:

Names for Males

Amley Elrud Meos Taltion
Cjianarg Etbreg Miley Tiley
Cjos Etinan Noard Timej
Cjrud Etlay Nolay Voley
Cjtalrud Getiley Noley Vorud
Elan Kothin Ruarg
Elarard Mebreg Talarbin

Names for Females

Cjvezrian Jiaria Quanian Tarruia
Galyar Jimea Ruriana Vezania
Isania Jiquar Saliana Vezgerian
Isara Jixath Salkaiar Vezkaia
Isardrian Kagath Salruda Vezvoar
Ischya Kajith Salthar Xyklian
Isgaia Lyarba Taranth Xylyar
Iskoia Lyqua Tarisar Xymeth

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 23 December 2007, 10:24:20
This seems great, Art! 

If you need it in the future, you have probably noticed I have some information on commonality in the first post which should help with that side of it.

Like you seem to have done, I conceive male names as tending to be shorter - two syllables most common, one syllable next, three syllables least common.  Female names would most often have three syllables, with four and two syllables equally common, and one syllable very uncommon.
Do you need me to add vowels to the syllables, or are you happy with what you have done?  As a note, I think I would like to avoid the 'u' sound in female names particularly - I envisage them sounding quite sharp.  As such I would like to have 'u' and 'o' relatively uncommon, especially by themselves and in short names.  Those letters combined with a 'sharper' sounding vowel could be a good way of doing it - so, instead of, say, "Ruth", we have it be "Ruith".  Not much of a change, but I like it better. Having 'o's and 'u's in male names is great.

Also, if you do want some new middle syllables I think we now have enough words, plus information on the commonality of letters (in my notes) that I could whip some up quite easily.  They do seem to be coming out quite nicely the way you have them, though.

So yes, this is great!  Just let me know what else you would like me to do on this  :)   :pet:

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 December 2007, 17:37:12
From the comments I gathered here in this thread and from Altario's Remusian thread I have collected a bunch of things already for my to-do list now in order to improve SNG further :) So this is very valuable, and I will try to work on that in the next days.

- Display Male/female in the "Names generated so far" in the Syllable form
- Allow deletion of names in Syllable form
- Add meaning in Syllable form
- Display meanings in Name Generator
- Display meanings in Tribes Overview
- Allow rule sheet maintenance per tribe (to be checked by the generating person upon accepting words). Automatisms here would be nice to have, but are not required at the moment.
- Display rule sheet upon generating
- Allow to specify syllables e.g. as "common female beginnings" (and display it that way). Could be realized through a priority scheme, where you can specify how high a syllable ranks, thus e.g. indicating how original to the tribe it actually is. Ideally you could let the program then only use high ranking syllables upon name generation in order to get extremely traditional ones out of it (=beginning, middle and ending syllables are top ranked) or to get more modern ones (no top ranked syllables), or explicitly mixed ones.
- Allow pronounciation addition note per syllable
- Allow/prevent double vowels/consonants when syllables are connected via a checkbox

Now to our progress on the name generation front directly: I would suggest to adjust the not so perfect syllables right now, as this will facilitate the generation process tremendously. With these I mean:

Beginnings: Cj-, Cij-, Qu-, Kl-
Endings: -a, -th

I guess these are all problematic ones. SNG works best if the syllables are changed that way that the connecting vowels are all there in the possible varieties. For example:

Qu- could be changed to Que-, Qui- and Qua- (o und u excluded, as not intended for names of females)
The Ending -a could be changed to longer, more typical syllables like -qua, -ria, -vria, -oria etc.

Know what I mean, Grun? If you could suggest a few of such alternate endings/beginnings for the problematic syllables, that would make things perfect :) - Note that the more alterations you suggest, the more options SNG will have to choose from, see the Qu- example. Making three out of one with precisely the vowels you need is the way to go. Each additional syllable multiplies the possibilities... :D

Another question: What is the Serphelorian point of view on doubel consonants or vowels? Do we rule them out in general or should there be some cases? Double vowels could be used for a special tribe as a very significant part of the word, wouldn't suggest to use them therefore for Serphelorians. Double consonants? Maybe better avoid them as well?

If you have middle syllables you want to have used, feel free to provide them also :)

Here's the rule sheet BTW I extracted from the posts above for reference (syllables are also sorted alphabetically here). The not so common syllables are not mentioned here, because here you find only those that have priority above others:


Syllable rankings:
- 2 syllables
- 1 syllable
- 3 syllables

- "u" and "o" is great here

Traditional beginnings:
- Br-
- Me-
- No-
- Ru-

Traditional endings:


Syllable rankings:
- 3 syllables
- 2/4 syllables
- 1 syllable (uncommon)

Common beginnings:

- avoid "u" and "o" (especially in short names)

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 December 2007, 16:28:42
@Grun: If you want I can of course try as well to find appropriate syllables myself that fit to what we already have. But you have accumulated quite a bit already, and it's possible that I interfere with your vision of the language if I now start making own syllables as I initially thought a week ago. Anyway, just let me know, either way I'll try my best! :thumbup:

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 26 December 2007, 05:30:56
Ooh, I thought I had posted here already!  Whoops  :shocked:  I will get on to this soon - probably over the next few days, as I still have one Christmas present to finish sewing so that will take a day (not belated, I swear - we agreed not to swap presents until after Christmas because she is in a different city  :grin:).  Anyway, I will come up with some things to add, and I promise I won't spend all my time fiddling with my new wacom tablet I got for Christmas (!) :pet: :biggrin:

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 26 December 2007, 16:12:57
Ok, no need to hurry - I'll read the rest of your Serphelorian entry in the meantime and see if I have some further suggestions. Also will start already with preparing the next site update with everything that has been approved already so far.

But once we've got the syllable definition completed I'll then let as much names generated as possible and post them, so that you can choose from a decent pool in order to adjust the names in the time table. Then I will go through that in detail and add it to the database, and in case there are inconsistencies I'll point them out etc. But it seems we're slowly get to a conclusion here - tribes take a good deal of work, but the outcome is vey valuabe and should be preferred over all other regular development stuff to finally get it done! :thumbup:

A wacom tablet also sounds great - I hope we see some pictures you'll make with it as well here! :)

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 27 December 2007, 04:04:52
Well, we should probably find that the timetable names are all correct... they, along with some other names from the map and the site, were actually the basis for developing the naming scheme :biggrin:  However there may be one or two that need changing, and it will be good to add some (e.g. Quesvath's mother, other Jakats and military leaders not yet defined) which are even more typical of Serphelorian / Sophronian names.

As to the tablet... well, I do plan to draw some small things like trees and faces to get my technique up to speed, so perhaps I will send you some things as I complete them and we'll see if what I am doing is at all good enough for the site...

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 08 January 2008, 13:48:33
Okay, I have fixed up the syllables - hopefully they are now the way you need them for the SNG. :)

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 08 January 2008, 16:07:37
Cool... Looks really good from what I see, Grun!! :D I'll feed SNG tonight with it and will see what I can come up with!  :thumbup:

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 January 2008, 05:29:56
Yeah, i've just added the syllables now to SNG and made over a hundred name per gender - see in this general Names thread (,11660.msg145057.html#post_Serphelorians). - Have a look :D

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 09 January 2008, 08:50:12
Looking great, Art!  The male names in particular are almost exactly right.  There would be a few more combinations in there, too, but I guess you weren't trying to get them all.  It would be good, though, if we could get some of the shortest names in the list as well, as in the submission:
Shorter male names end with d, g or less regularly, j (e.g. Breg, Rud, Mej). 

For the female names, there are a few which I think are a bit too short.  A few (e.g. 'Oria' and 'Vria') are just endings by themselves - don't know how they got in there!  The female names I thought were too short were:


Perhaps if there aren't enough female combinations in longer syllables, I could provide some middle syllables for fillers?  I had a think as I was looking at the names, and the ones I came up with were -lo-, -lor-, -loph-, -phri-, -rit-, -rez-, -tan-, -kaz-, -sav-, -cath-, -rith-.

That way we end up with names like Rukaloveth, Xylophria, Vezerita, Kairevath, Lycetana, Gaekazar, Jisaveth (Ji/sav/veth), Rucathlia, and Chylaritha.  I don't know if this added level of complexity is workable or not, but I thought I would add it as an option.  Most of these syllables of course could become first syllables as well if you want  :D

Also it would be good if we could make any double consonants disappear:  names like 'Sallia' seem much more Serphelorian to me somehow if they are just 'Salia'.  Not really important though if you can't change that  :)

Okay, I hope that isn't too much work!  I am just being fussy, I guess :hammer:

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 January 2008, 15:59:52
Sure I can still change stuff and add more :) Getting decent names is always a process, so I'll add the suggested syllables and remove the shorter ones you mentioned. The double consonants will also be looked into - I don't have much of those generated, but it's good to know how you'd like to have it, then I can focus on that!

Note that the strengths of the names (how purely Serphelorian or influenced/modern they are) are not shown yet on this first list, but this is something I could also add sooner or later to that export function I use to post the names here. I tried however to mostly use strrong syllables, so that a good deal of the names should be typically Serphelorian.

Updated names to come this evening!  :thumbup:

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 January 2008, 04:53:38
Okeydokey, Grun - I've added the suggested syllables, removed the one-syllable names, added also your direct suggestions and created a bunch of additional names (around 30 male, 45 female ones). The names in the Nomenclature thread were updated accordingly - check it out! :)

On that short syllable names, which aren't included yet: Yes, I know that I need to fix that the program doesn't take the last syllable only if it should only choose one syllable/word part, but actually the first. At least that's how it worked e.g. with the Erpheronians and others. So I need confirmation here - if I only take the first syllable to create names, we'd get also names like:


There could also be other short names where we combine a short beginning and ending syllable of course. Only wanted to ask if such names are ok with you as well.

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 10 January 2008, 08:23:16
They're looking great, Art!  Of course we still have a couple of names which look a bit short - 'Sala' and 'Reia' - but that's not really too much of a problem.  There are only two, so it should be pretty obvious that they are uncommon.

As to the shorter names:  I would prefer not to have the ones like your examples.  The only short ones should be those male names of a one- or two- letter beginning with a one-letter ending.  If it's easier, I can just hand-write a list of these and we can insert them in the names list - there won't be many.

Speaking of names lists: I checked Judy's entry, and it looks to me like you have the genders of the Caltharian names around the wrong way!  :lol: 

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Bard Judith on 10 January 2008, 11:52:38
(snickers) sharp eyes!

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 January 2008, 16:00:20
Ooops... Indeed! I've switched that now.

Shorter names: Yep, fine with me. If you can construct names manually, feel free to post them directly and I'll add them to the pool!

P.S. I'm not sure about that female beginning syllable "Kaiacer", as it is much longer than others. Is that one fine? Then I can make such names like Kaiacer-a, Kaiacer-eia, Kaiacer-qua etc. Just wasn't sure if you didn't forget a comma somewhere.

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 22 January 2008, 04:27:28
Whoops, missed this comment.  Yup, that was on purpose - it was one approach I took to trying to control which syllables came out, but as it basically meant I was writing full names, I let it go :lol:

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature - Last name help please!
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 31 January 2008, 08:13:31
Updated first post with better structure, and of course those last names which I'm not exaclty sure on...

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature - Last name help please!
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 01 February 2008, 05:51:32
As today is LOST season 4 start (yippie!!!), here's a quote that came to my mind when reading Serphelorian (title should be changed I guess BTW) nomenclature: :lol:

Eko approaches Locke with a book in his hands he has discovered somewhere.
Eko: Hello. I have something I think you should see. If you don't mind, I will begin at the beginning. (Pause) Long before Christ the king of Judah was a man named Josiah.
Locke: Boy - when you say beginning, you mean beginning!

:lol: That scene was quite hilarious, and if I look at your Sophronian Nomenclature now, I guess you also really started at the beginning to have it covered from top to bottom, Grun...  :cool: Seems we need to make an own entry for the Nomenclature, maybe with a shorter summary in the main entry?

This is quite massive and leaves practically no questions unanswered. With the mixing with other tribe's name parts this of course gets a bit complicated, especially as there are so many variations of the second names , but it's all described here pretty well. :)

Question: Are the names you have put up here and categorized all from the generator or did you add own ones as well? As they should all be stored in the name database - if you added further ones I'd need to know which ones, so that I can add them to the name pool.

For the second names we could also combine some names manually and make certain syllables out of them to feed SNG with it - the endings we have anyway, and also their regional differences. In the meaning I could add the tribal orientation of that name as well, so that once a name is generated we know immediately what tribe combination it is. You have a good deal of examples already, so if that's ok with you I will try to come up with some more, so that we have the second names also covered from the SNG side and can offer something to choose from in the main names list.

P.S. I dug for Judy's entry on Tribal Dialects, and it's here (,10858.msg125529.html#msg125529). Guess the only tribe that is missing are the Sophronians, though... But the thread might still serve as inspiration regarding Tribal Language.

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature - Last name help please!
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 02 February 2008, 09:04:37
Hi Art,

I'm glad you like it.  I think I had always intended it to be a supplementary entry, like those at the Shendar etc.  I think it can become cluttered if you try to put to much in to a main entry, really. 

I'm still not certain if the last names are quite what I want - hopefully I can get a look-over from Alysse or Judy or anyone else with an interest in this sort of thing, and we can refine it a bit. 

Perhaps the overview could be used in the tribe entry, and then maybe a link to this entry?  Something like "Further details about Serphelorian naming can be found here".

I have used names mostly from the generator, but I have fiddled with a number of them to make them sound the way I want them to.  I kept a record of which names I changed, so I will post that here soon.  I will also convert the Titles section in to something readable soon too  :)

Judy's Tribal Language submission is great - I will use her format as a basis for getting the Language post sorted out, which is next on my list.  Then perhaps I can get to Chrondra!

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature - Last name help please!
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 02 February 2008, 09:59:33
Okay, as per my post above, here is a list of all the names I have used in the submission which didn't come straight from the SNG.

I got these names from tweaking names on the list of names which came out of the SNG:  some because I felt they didn’t quite work as they were, and others because felt like I didn’t have enough representatives of the different name parts, so I added bits to existing names to make good-sounding names with the parts that I needed more of.

I also just remembered that I have changed around the commonality of some syllables.  For example, 'qua' used to be a more common ending, but because it was difficult to find names which worked well with that ending, I have now made it a rare ending.  There are a few other changes, too.  Is that ok?  Sorry if it is a hassle   :nerd:

The format is original SNG name / names -> my 'tweaked' name.

Chyveth -> Chyzaveth
Cjarithqua -> Cjaloritha
Chykazqua / Chyreth ->Chyrequa
Elskazar ->Elsrazar
Elreza -> Elophreza
Gaerezreia -> Gaezreia
Isphria -> Iskaphria
Jiqua ->Jilorqua
Karezkath -> Karezath
Karezreia -> Karezeia
Klarithveth -> Klariveth
Lylophoria -> Lyzophoria
Querarithria  -> Querithia
Quinphrilia -> Quinphrolia (Quinphrilia sounds sort of like a medicine, n’est-ce-pas? :lol:)
Saleia -> Salreia
Sala -> Salera
Tarreza -> Tarezar
Vezarezar -> Vezarphrian
Vezimireia / Vezioria -> Vezimoreia
Xyphoreza -> Xyphoriath
Xykazia -> Xykazar
Xaphrireia -> Xaphireia

The only male name I felt I needed to change was Miklilay -> Mikilay

Title: Re: Sophronian Nomenclature - Last name help please!
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 02 February 2008, 15:37:42
And for a third post - Updated the first post with the tidied-up version of the titles section.

And yes, I am still looking for ideas around how to fix the last names  :)

Title: Re: Serphelorian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 21 February 2008, 11:39:09
Updated and finished!  Pending comments or approval, this is done. 

I introduced a number of alternative endings to the last names, and now I am much happier with them.

I have also de-complicated the entry a fair bit, so hopefully it should be more user friendly!

Title: Re: Serphelorian Nomenclature
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 March 2008, 05:33:16
Wow, this is really comprehensive, Grun!  :shocked: Just read it through from top to bottom, and I guess it can hardly get any better regarding the amount of detail you try to cover here :)

The beginnings and endings of the last names are something I can feed SNG now with, and as we now also have meanings for word parts, SNG can also present you now excactly what the generated names actually mean. I think it will work pretty well!

The long second names and the somewhat "interesting" titles of course might sound unfamilar to other Santharians and might not be that easy to get used to, but this is exactly what the whole Nomenclature is about - to make things different compared to other tribes, to give a tribe an own character. I think you really succeeded here, and spotting a name from this tribe makes it not too difficult to determine its origin. At least concerning the tribe. - And you even have set up loads of regional differences! This way you can track down every "little" name to his/her ancestors living in a small village near the Xythrian Ridge, eh? :lol:

I also like those little extras you add in here and there, like "Meaning ‘weakling of’.  A very old suffix, this was usually applied to males..."  :grin: or "Readers, please note that, like the first names, this is by no means meant to be an exhaustive list of family names.  If your name is not on this list, it is no slight to your family!"

Having the title "Jakat" I think is also a very effective way to make this tribe different from regular kingdoms, and with everything else you'Ve developed in the Serphelorian context like the Orders and the ir religious background and now with the Nomenclature they really stand as something of their own. When I look back at what we had before about them its not much to what we have now... - Magnificent stuff, and it fits together and makes sense, also in the historical context you're still setting up!

I guess this can safely be marked for integration, the first part added to the main entry, and the second part as a complete entry of its own. It's all constructed to a great degree on how we have it at other tribes, so this will be easy to integrate. I'll also feed SNG to make further name generation easier :D - Once again: Great work, Grun! The Serphelorians can be proud of you!  :thumbup: :clap:

Title: Re: Serphelorian Nomenclature
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 07 March 2008, 10:28:22
Yay, I am so glad to have this done!  I have given it the blue arrow!

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