Santharian Development

Please, feel free to talk about anything Sanguia-related here.

Alright.....
So, now all we need to do is decide where we need to start, figure out which entries have references to Sanguia/New-Santhala in them, etc....
Actually, that's still quite a bit. All right, let's at least get a sign-up sheet going. Anyone who wants to help, sign below.


Nsikigan "Rocksilk" Yourth

Saw this in the main thread:
Good question.  I don't recall this having been addressed before.  The closest I think was that Sanguia was ruled by the Santhran, but through a Thane, who was known as the Steward, or something like that.  So my guess would be that the duchy New Santhala is in is probably owned by the Santhran, but run by either the Thane or someone appointed by him, while the Santhran takes care of kingdom-level stuff. 

Nice.
So.
Where do we start?
And thank you very much Mina, perhaps we should start by outlining the duchies in Sanguia?

Sounds good. We need to blow up that section of the map from the santharia one and work with it. Then we can move on from there.

Btw, Nsiki, have you  seen this? (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,11454.0.html)

Might be worthwhile to check out, unless you already have. You could be way ahead of me.  ;)

Thanks Dru! I've skimmed it, but haven't rally sat down and read it. And I will get right on blowing up the Sanguia map!

You started a great project here, Nsiki, I hope, that it is not too big for you! (Now)

Insert:*Cold shower comming*

I would recommend very much to gather more information first yourself and not to wait, till other people come and do it for you. You wrote, that you will check later, what for entries are reserved - why have you not done this immediately and added it to the list? I know, because setting up the other stuff was more challenging. But the little unpopular details are those things which are important and are those who require the time.

If somebody sets up such a project I would like to see him more informed about what is going on in general in this area. For example, that Rookie is already writing on the council tree. Have you asked, if she might want to do the vale of the Brownies, before you set it up to claim for anybody? Things like that.

I would strongly recommend to take New Santhala out of this masterplan (though it is of course connected with the area), for it is an own project in itself. Many people have had ideas already, like Judy and I, surely Art, others as well. There are discussions already in the forum which should be searched and considered. (E.G: Judy and me already have clear visions about some buildings like the great library which harbours the Compendium and a couple of museums with adjacent botanical gardens including  zoos. There is already something mentioned e.g. in the Draardle entry).

In addition, as Art said already, many of the main developers interested in this area (New Santhala) like Judy, Mina, Grunoc, me, are busy currently and it is not a good idea to start too many topics which will migrate down the board, uncommented, unfinished, nearly forgotten. It ill be frustrating for you, if you do not get much response, not out of interest, but lack of time.

Climate and alsetism and the  topics Judy brought forward need attention, the already installed masterplans like the "How much do  things cost in Santharia" are still in work and need attention as well.

So I would dearly recommend to stay away from big projects for now, but concentrate on getting something done and up, Nsiki. I know, that was a cold shower for you and I apologise for not being able to say it more polite, but that's the fact. I had as much ideas as you and started with a lot as well, thought I had to have my fingers everywhere, but this prevents you to actually get things done eventually. I do need my time for submissions, they need to ripen in a way, but now I try to focus on only a few things and get them on the site and finished. If the project New Santhala would be started now, I could not be part of it and that I would hate. 



Nsiki, what about commenting other works, doing an uri now and then? I have seen, that you had a few good ideas for Azhira and the Kaaer religion, but I can't remember having sen an uri from you.

The Blood Dealers are waiting dearly for a thorough check by somebody, e.g. ....

Don't be disencouraged now, I love to see your engagement, but I see it vanishing as well, if you do not the response you need.. :)

Why is my masterwork topic up under “Needing a Revision”?  I would have thought it was pretty obvious that it was getting a revision and wasn’t available for other people to claim. And I’m not sure why you’ve put “Note Rookie’s Masterwork” under Vale of the Brownies either.  Did you think I was writing the Vale of Brownies and not the Council Tree?  This type of thing does not exactly inspire confidence.

Also, don’t you need the backing and support of a fair amount of the team before launching into a huge project like this?  What about the support of people working in the area? I have to completely agree with what Talia says above, pretty much to the letter.

On the other hand, why don’t we set up some sort of group of people who are working in Sanguia?  I would be happy to extend my knowledge a bit outside the Vale if it meant we could combine our efforts a little and share our research.  We could get some lists of plants and animals which live there (I already have some for the Vale), possibly sort out a regional climate map once the other one is sorted, organise some trading routes and provide some expert knowledge on the area if anyone needed it.  It wouldn’t be a masterplan as such, but just developing and sharing resources for everyone to use.  Plus, working with others always helps enthusiasm!

P.S.  Also, the Vale of the Brownies is not completely unentried – there is an unfinished Greybark work here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,7715.msg83594.html#msg83594) which should probably be taken into account.

I think Rookie and Talia bring up some good points Nsiki. This could too much right now.

Rookie, I (we) apologize for having the Vale and the Council Tree marked as needing revision, but Nsiki and I did talk about it last night (my time) and I suspect he just hadn't marked it down yet, that you're doing them.

An idea that could solve problems: I just noticed, the manthrian map actually extends into sanguia! Perhaps the thing to do, Nsiki, is to a) work on the climate and trade routes like Rookie suggested, but also to start filling in some of the border entries for the area, atleast the ones on the Manthrian map. You could even write a few mini descriptions for the area, which could move things along.

Just my two sans. I definitely see where Talia/Rookie are coming from, and perhaps this needs, eg. a year to make some major progress on Manthria and other areas so that we would have a more active group getting involved.

Hmmm, could be.  I guess the phrase  “OMGosh I was away for one night and suddenly there are huge plans for the area I’m working in and I wasn’t even given time to discuss what we should do” preeeetty much sums up my feelings.  I would really love to do some sort of collaborated effort in Sanguia, but I’m not sure about actually making it a Masterplan.  That suggests filling in every tiny hole – every plant, every beast etc etc.  I would personally rather just work together a bit more, maybe sort out some of the big entries together too, that would be great fun.  What do you think?

Also, I just wanted to pop in and say I probably won’t be able to get online this weekend as my home internet is not working and we can’t get hold of the guy who looks after it (insert huge grumble and possibly a vicious stabbing here).   Would it be possible to wait on any huge decisions for a couple of days?  If we do decide to do something (and again, I would really be interested in helping if I could – hence the “we” ;)) then wouldn’t it be a good idea to decide exactly what we are doing, how much detail we want to go into etc etc? And give the rest of the team a chance to give their thoughts too?

An understandable feeling, but that's why this is still up for discussion. Nsiki hasn't filled in anything like, eg. Mira's drifting woods plan in his Dev schedule, he has simply proposed the idea of doing something like that.


Again, that's why this thread is here. I hope, and I believe Nsiki will agree with me, that the general and basic, jumpstart planning that he did last night was not meant to be an end to all discussion. No one has said that the rest of the team can't imput things, and if this project needs to slow down it can. I just feel that we can't be frustrated with Nsiki for jumpstarting a project with some outlining that would have to be done eventually anyway.


Sounds good, but some organization on that front, even if in the end we don't call it a masterplan, can't hurt can it? Atleast just defining what entries are major, what needs to be done, etc.


Because you are of course very involved in the region with the brownies Rookie, I think it is more than reasonable to postpone anything of the kind without you atleast being able to participate. I think it is impossible to say that discussion over this, and possibly some basic map/climate/trade route stuff will not be atleast talked through over the next few days, but it would be foolishness on the part of anyone to attempt to finalize such things without you. :) We neeeeeeed you Rookie! *Insert very echoey voice here*

All in all, what I hear being said is that we need to slow this down, and that is not unreasonable. May I just point out though, for those who haven't seen, that Arti knows and has not forbid such a project. In fact, a case could be made that he is comfortable with Nsiki perhaps taking a stab at such a thing.
See Here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,9302.msg153184/topicseen.html#new), a couple posts back.

Hope you get the internet problem straightened out Rookie, cause I've been there and I empathize...  :hug: *sings* It's a hard knock life, for us er... without the internet. :D

First of all, thank you, Dru.
Second of all, let me clear up some misconceptions.
There you go, Tal, you answered your own question, and it seems I have a MASSIVE misconception to clear up here. Nothing has been truly launched. The foundations have been built, and this masterplan is only a convienent name. I am not demanding a team, I am not demanding attention, I am simply setting up guidelines for a very important region.
Talia, the time will go into this, but it will happen when I have the time, and last night I was a bit busy getting the foundations set. But the details will happen.

I never set any entries "up for grabs". I only posted a do-to list, with this disclaimer attached-

Now, onto New-Santhala. This indeed, after a PM I received from Grun, seems like a project that can wait. I now perhaps see New-Santhala not as a starting point, but as a keystone, an entry that will act as the final touch, but one that we must keep in mind as we develop Sanguia.
It can wait.

You DO have a say, Brownie, that's what this forum is for. NOTHING is final, besides the fact that I will try to get those not-aligned with Mantharia to help develop the empty holes in Sanguia.

I answer this with a quote from Art.

And that answers that.

A standing ovation, and a yes, please.

I second this, and I'll be the echoey voice.
Also, if you want, I can put you down for the Vale for some time in the distant future.

I lakka dat case.
I've done Uris!  :angry:
Not recently, most have been on the RP board, but I'm starting to get more active in commenting, and of course, any entry put forward as part of this plan will receive constant commentary from me. I'm ready to rise to challenge, if you (anyone!) are. (is.)

I hope I've answered your questions, Tal and Rookie, and clarified things for everyone.
Once again, thank you Dru, you can be my Ambassador when I take over Santha-
I've said too much.

The Uris on the RPG board don't count here, Nsiki.
And:


Are you now the one to assign entries? I don't think, Rookie has to ask you....

Don't understand me wrong, Nsiki, what you did last night was surely a help for further developement, but maybe you should have talked to more people who deal with this area (I'm not speaking of me), before you went so firmly forward.

As I told you so often, start a bit smaller, do some good entries and then people will listen more willingly .

@ Dru
You’re right, I shouldn’t be annoyed at starting off this discussion, and I’m not really, I just got the impression that this was completely 100% steaming ahead from the fact that it was posted in the Masterplan forum and seemed to be fairly far along whilst still in the first stages of discussion.   My mistake.
Again, I agree, I just feel the idea of a Masterplan is a lot to take on and shouldn’t be done lightly.  It would be a good idea to have a list of all the entries which need to be revised/written for reference.  I would be happy to provide plant/animal lists for the region as a developer’s tool.  But if the intention was to great a group of people who could work through each and every missing entry, I don’t think I’d be on board.  I think that’s a huge amount to take on, and a lot of pressure to have so many entries hanging over you.  However, if the list was there, I would be happy to take entries off there when I had time and wanted a break from Brownies.  But then maybe it’s only me who would feel this difference?

Lol! :hug:  Indeed, I don’t expect you to stop discussions completely for me, just be aware that I might be late in and therefore bring up things once more which you thought had been discussed and agreed.  I would like to be involved in general Sanguia stuff if I could, and not only be confined to the Vale.


True, but that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be discussed and thought out.  Which I guess you’ve convinced me is going to happen, so..yeah…:)

@Nsiki


Well, traditionally the idea of a Masterplan is that the whole team (or as many as possible) are being asked to work on it, isn’t it?  That is in fact the whole point, no? 
Okay, the rest doesn’t really need to be under quotes, and I think I’ve answered some of it in my replies to Dru.  I would probably one day do an entry for the Vale, but very very far in the future, as it’s a large entry and I would like to take a break from them post masterwork.  So I wouldn’t really like to reserve it, just encase another enthusiastic person comes along and wants to write it before I get there.

What exactly are the plans?  To make lists of things which need to be done, to do them all, to create development resources, to build up a “Sanguian” team who can support each other’s works and provide some expert help to each other?

Sorry, Brownie!
Actually, this was originally in the... development proposals board, I think, but Mina requested/suggested i move it, so it's been moved here.
Please don't get the impression I'm taking this on lightly! Trust me, I am 100% serious about this project.
If you want to help get the lists of entries together, that'd be fantastic!
No, the intention is NOT to work through "each and every missing entry". That'd be impossible, as there is literally an infinite number of potential entries! I just want to look at the entries on the site that need revision, and revise them. I also want to develop places, especially to a greater extent, as place entries have a tremendous effect on spawning/integrating other entries, not to mention there are quite a few places on the map that don't have entries, as evidenced by my place list.
And essentially, yes, Brownie. What we (I?) want to do is create lists of entries that NEED revision/integration, and work on those.
I feel you, Browine! I want to be involved in Sanguia generally, not just with the Eyelians.
For the moment, that's all we're doing.
To an extent, but my yes/no answer would be no. Take Mantharia, for instance. While we have a team of incredibly talented and dedicated developers, not EVERY talented/dedicated developer is working in Mantharia.
It shall remain unreserved.
Essentially, yes. Excellently put, Brownie. I won't argue that it's a huge undertaking. It is. But it's an undertaking that has been happening ever since the first Sanguian entry was written. All I'm doing is adding more  initiative and organization.

Before we go full steam ahead, let's figure out what needs to get done. Eg, our Top Priorities.

Nsiki, just so you know, I do have plans for the hobbits of the Elenveran shire.  I would be more than happy to help you develop with this plan, but sadly I do not have the time, plus I’m not a member.  I would be most upset if my ideas for the hobbits were not listened to.  I see you have them as needing development, so I would just like to state my interest in that development. Also I see you say the Gnorians need developing, this confuses me.  First of all, the Gnorians hardly live in Sanguia, they mostly live in Enthronia.  Second, they aren't in that dire need of development.  I'm sure Gaffin and I both have ideas for them, so perhaps we should be consulted if work is to be done on them.  I woud say that the Gnorians have very little influence in the province anyway.  There is a much higher concentration of them in the eastern province.  The few sparse gnomes would have little influence, as first they are gnomes and second they are Gnorian gnomes.  Basically all I'm saying is perhaps this plan should hold off for a while.  Entries in the region would be thoroughly apprieciated, and they would help me develop, but I don't think everyone who wants to develop the places is ready.  I see entries that I know Judy would be intrested in, others Gaffin would, others I would, others for Rookie, others for Grun, and I'm sure Arti would like to develop some, when he had the time.  I think he is just being gracious by not complaining.  Go ahead with entries there, but a masterplan seems a bit extreme.  Planning the masterplan would be okay as well, but I wouldn't start until everyone who wants to develop has the chance.  Actually, may I ask your goals for this plan, as I don't see any.  As I see it, this started out to develop New-Santhala, but Arti says a masterplan is not just to develop one place.  I understand you wantthe province your peopleare in to be developed, but I don'tthink we have the time.  As I said, it would be great for you to plan the plan.  Sorry if I seemed a bit harsh by the way, I just don't want everyones' plans to go to waste.

Mannix

A masterplan isn't developed in isolation (unless it's for somewhere that is really completely unclaimed).  Besides, I'm quite sure there's nothing preventing changes from being made to it even after it is done. 

I think, since there are so many people interested in various parts of the province as you point out, a masterplan could be a good way to organise things.  It should be helpful for figuring out how the various groups in the province interact with each other, as well as point out any gaps that might need to be filled.  We just need to know who's working on/planning to work on what. 

Exactly, and that's what I'm trying to do with this thread.
Now, on to Mannix.
See, what I've found out about Santharia is it doesn't matter if you're a member or not. You have just as much say in your own project as Talia, for instance. If you have ideas, no ones going to strike you down. And I'd love to hear your concepts for the hobbits.
No, I didn't mean to say they NEED developing. Rather, they are one of the tribes/races with a presence in Sanguia. If you think they are/should be/mostly exist as an Enrothian tribe, I can take them down, though it seems to me that they have a pretty widespread range.

Let me make one point clear- the list of tribes and races exists ONLY to have a handy reference of tribes/races that have a significant presence/impact in Sanguia, as a resource for developers.

Alright. Then Bard can throw an entry in here, so can Grun, so can Gaffin, so can Arti, whenever they have the time. Making a plan, setting up a framework, forming organization does NOT exclude anyone. If someone has a particular affinity or expertise for an area of development, of course they will be consulted, just like they would be anyways. This "masterwork" does not change anything, except for a lack of organization. All I am doing here is networking and organizing.

The goals? i believe I've stated them several times in this thread.

List the areas in Sanguia that require development
Create a "database", or resource area, where developers can easily find information and links that relate to Sanguia
Form a team, whose main priority has already been established as development relating to Sanguia, like me, Brownie (?), and others, in order to provide expert advice to those interested in developing in Sanguia, and support each other
Develop the Sanguian area, eliminating "holes" in the map, and revising the entries in need of revision.
Thus, the acronym LCFD... hmmm.... that doesn't actually spell anything.... we'll work on that.

And finally, I'll finish on the subject of New-Santhala. If you would kindly look at the Masterowrk thread, you will find that New-Santhala is NOT a development priority. We simply don't have the manpower or time right now, so it's going to serve as a keystone. Eventually, I would like to see a thread detailing different buildings/people/districts/etc. of New-Santhala, and I believe that that WOULD prove an exception to the "one place" rule, considering it's importance. But that's a long way off. Instead, I'm urging developers to turn their attention to the King's Hollow, to Xythrian Ridge, to the Vale of Brownies- all the areas of Sanguia that have room in them for the details already so prevelant in other parts of the world. I'm not saying we don't have lots of details in Sanguia, but there is room for improvement, and we're going to fill that room.

Ok, well, in the spirit of building a bit more of a team, how about everyone saying what their particular expertise is within the Province?  Please, anyone feel free to post here, even if you don't have time to be involved in the project itself.  We need to know where the expertise lies, and that way if something does cross into what someone has already developed, it will be really easy to drop a quick pm and let them know.  I don't feel I really know who to ask about Sanguia at the moment - or even really who is working in the area.  Kind of bad :P.

Areas of Work within Sanguia

- Llaoihrr Brownies
- Brownie Vale
- Woodland plants and animals of the area (mainly through research rather than writing myself)

@ Nsiki - erm, could you possibly call me Rookie and not "Brownie"?  Thanks!

Second!
And.. erm... where'd i get Brownie from... OH! Brownbark. That's right, Rookie.
My mistake, and a hundred thousand apologies.
My area of Expertise
-Eyelians
-King's Hollow

Well. my area of expertise is mainly the North and my own tribe, but I would be happy to help in any way with a small entry or two if needed. We're all a team here and I don't want to have the attitude of "Sorry, I can't help. Not my area..." or something silly like that. I can't promise full time help for Sanguia as I am dedicated to the North, but I can do whatever in between.

I'm pretty versatile so poke me if needed. :grin:

I dearly would recommend to go through the reserved entries soon, for then you will find some people who are interested in this area..
for example me - Chylikis. I don't want to write this town down necessarily, but have my say, but read yourself.

I see, that the Quallian is quite short, but I would like to see Wrens work not vanish either, so I thought I'll try to contact her, maybe she comes back. Otherwise I'll update it occasionally, I have read quite a lot about it, the people of the Heart visited for quite some time, as you might know.

I need (hopefully) only a few more days to finish up a Storm of 3 Nights draft, and then I shoudl be fully available to comments and discuss this. Until then, I find myself very busy, and must decline to take any major part. I did notice we were talking about areas of interest, so for now I will just say, that I am interested in two things.

Areas of Interest
-Coastal Development: My current "big project" is the Adanian Sea, and I would like to take part in any development along that coast. Gaffin, if you are working with the gnomes I wouldn't mind doing a bit of brainstorming with you when you go to write down Yorick. If that's alright with you. I also wouldn't mind writing the Bluffs of bran, woecaps, etc. entry as well.
-Elven forests: Especially the Zephyrian {Sp?} forest.

Dru, does the Zeiphyrian need a revision? Are there not other things needed to develop more urgently? Even if it is not entirely up to date, it is not needed to rework it when there are so many other things to do.

Well, after we get our "areas of expertise" down, let's lay out the major areas that need development, what our priorities are. I say, give it a day or two, let others come and sign up, then we'll proceed with prioritizing.

Alright, check this link out: [Reserving Sanguian Entries]]http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,12765.0.html][Reserving Sanguian Entries] (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,12765.0.html)
Note- For New Reservations only

Nsiki, you should say, that this is meant for new reservations, you can't expect, that any old ones are necessarily covered . And every entry reserved here should be reserved in the approbiate forum as well, for that is where people might look first.

Talia, I think both the Zeiphyrian Forests and the elves living there are in a state of semi completion. The forest entry description etc. could be expanded and some of the sections for the Quaelhoirhim could be as well, though both are pretty close. I'm not saying those are priorities, and I'm not saying that I won't do others, but as we're listing Areas of Interest those are, quite frankly, my areas of interest. I'm not going to limit myself to those, but I want to make sure I get a few fingers in those pies so to speak. Apple Pie, if I'm lucky.

Of course there are more urgent things, but Sanguia is not going to become my main focus, nor many other peoples. This is a problem we already hashed... sort've, but I still want to contribute to it any way I can and have fun doing.

So that's where am at. :D I've rambled. You get the idea.

Nsiki I meant to sub goals of filling in the holes.
I understand if you don't have these yet, and I'm sure everyone who wants to would help.  I was just asking if you them yet.  I agree we should have a masterplan, but we should take it slow.  I guess I was a bit annoyed because of something in RPG, and it came through in this post, sorry.  I also said I couldn't develop the tribe as I'm not as member.
But anyway, if you want my areas of interest:
Hobbits.
Gnomes, I'm not one much for Daran, but if you need help I'll try, though Gaffin would probably be better.
Elverground and the Shire of Elenveran

Mannix

Hmm, before we can actually ask people to take on entries, I think we need a the list to be correct.  There are a couple of tribes at least missing from the People and Races list - the Llaoihrr and the Serphelorians.  Also Tyr Thromgolin is mentioned both as being finished and as not having an entry.  There is a tribe of elves living in the Allmantar too I think.  The Sophronian Men's capital is in the midst of what is now the Eyelian territory because the Sophronians no longer exist - they became the Serphelorians.  The Avennorians live in Manthria, and the Proudmen way up north, so I don't think either of them would be the largest group of people, although the Avennorians might have a few.  Mainly Eyelians and Serphelorians I think?

Anyway, which entries did you look for Nsiki?  Just large place entries?  And what constitutes large?  Just to throw out an example - The Vale is actually home to 250,000 Brownies who don't live in the Council Tree but don't actually yet have a place entry - should those settlements be included?

We should do little blurbs for them too, so that people can see at a glance what they are and where to look/who to ask for information.

My first suggestion would be to clean up the masterplan thread.  Take a look a Arti's or Mina's and try to run by that form.  It will help us find the info easier. ;)

Don't forget Grun. Currently she is quite busy, it seems, but as a main and very experienced developer of this region I would not want to miss her input - and guidance. So if she has no time at the moment, maybe postpone the masterplan idea (apart from tidying up) until she has. And work on becoming a junior member. ;)

This is a good point.  We can't actually do any of the place entries at the moment anyway.......:P

For now, Tal, that's all I'm doing. I'm just cleaning things up, getting the pieces in place, and setting up for Sanguia. And of course, I'm ALWAYS working on becoming a member ;)
Hopefully, after Bladeleaf, Vayrn, Body Mods, Kyttering, and constant commenting, I'll be ready for my masterwork.
So not too much longer... ;)
And I'm going to request n one goes over to the Masterplan forum for the moment. It's still very much under construction.

How many uris or comments longer than a paragraph in the last four weeks? ;)  :buck:

The constant commenting is getting STARTED now.. Tal ;)
And plus, that last comment wasn't longer then a paragraph!  :evil:
Just kidding, of course....
hehe

Comments on comments on a persons commenting habits do now count as real comments when it comes to minimum comment length. ;)

Now say it 3 times fast!

Also, I noticed in the reservation thread and elsewhere people (Mannix and others) are starting to reserve tribe entries. Just to remind you, there is a often-bended rule that tribe entries are on hold sort've. Not to sort've echo Talia's tone, but I'm thinking that no one should be starting an unwritten tribe in Sanguia unless it's a masterwork or they're a member. It's just to big in a somewhat undeveloped/developed (I know that's confusing) area IMO.

Makin' so but sure progress on that storm...

Ah.
And no.
And as so far as tribe entries go, no tribe is "reserved", I just wrote where people's specialties lie. And Mannix may be able to work on the hobbits, after all, they are not new, just in need of an entry. But that's far off anyways.
And I'll get you some comments on the storms thing, just let me finish Bladeleaf, commenting the council tree, and then I'll get to you.

No no, I don't need comments yet. I haven't even finished writing it. :D LOTS of witness accounts, they're getting old...

No hurry here.

New tribal entries are reserved for members, I believe.

The only two exceptions I know of was my own Kaaer masterwork entry which was a revision of a current tribe on site and with Arti's special permission. The second is the Black Gnomes which is a collaboration between a member (me) and two apprentices. So yeah...I kinda mucked things up a bit, didn't I?   :P

No problems, Az, we'll just cross that hobbit bridge in a bit.
In the meantime, to get back to the goals discussion:
No, I don't have smaller goals yet, that's going to require I get that masterplan thread finished, which will take LOTS of planning. Second, the place entries we need are primarily the cities/regions that are on the map, followed by rivers and natural phenomena on the map, followed by places refrenced in other Sanguia entries not on the map.

That's what I've been saying, I know I can't start working on the hobbit tribe entry.
Black Gnomes! I completely forgot Azhira.  *rummages around for his notes on it*  I'll post it ASAP.

You do know about the 'Dark Dwarves', which have been onsite but undeveloped for simply ages?

" THE  MORGERIM ("DARK DWARVES")
A separate clan, although some claim a separate race, since their physical characteristics and culture vary so significantly from the rest of the Thergerim. However, the Morgerim are indeed dwarves, albeit reclusive (and that's reclusive even from a dwarven point of view!) Currently not much is known about them, but historians are working to remedy this lack of information...."


I have no idea where these guys came from, but they're in the overview...

I for one am very aware of the Dark Dwarves as they (supposedly) live up North in Caael'heroth. They are on the list to be developed someday...tribal development is exhausting and I am still recovering from the Kaaer entry... :P

The Morgerim are Thuja's project, where he said a while ago that he has larger parts of the entry finished, and that he still wants to finish it.  - Quote from his last post (March 2008):

Most will not know me anymore as it has been awhile since I last responded on the site.  Thought I would just stop by and say hello to the old timers, and any young uns about.

Since I have become an English teacher and now trying to teach and prepare German speakers (in English) for the GED (most Americans and Canadians know what this is) my free time has evaporated.

I feel bad about this because I have obligations here (how long is the wait now Artimidor, 20 years :P ) and can not get them done.  At this time at least.  Hopefully by the end of summer when the GED is finished and I have everything prepared (did I forget to mention I am doing it all from scratch) for the next go, I should find my free time again.

I have not forgotten this place.  I just did not realize how much my new endeavor would entail.  Just hope this place has not forgotten me.

1st- Sorry, Mannix!
2nd- Yup, Bard, I noticed the Dark Dwarves, but as they were not mentioned as a Sanguian Dwarf tribe, I haven't put them in the Mazsterplan thread. However, if you think they fit here (maybe the ring?) we could at least mention them in the thread.

Just a note about New-Santhala I didn't want to lose-
The Eyelian king and beastmaster Taranthir I. left Vista and his castle as well and moved his residence to the south, in the central Rimmerins Ring, to a place the elves called Es'daín (elvish "Place in the day"). This place should later on be renamed to Santhala and become the Santharian capital.

Important note about New Santhala which *I* didn't want to lose - occurred to me in the car the other day and didn't have anywhere to write it down yet.

The place is NOT, very unusually for any city let alone a large, well-developed one, and even more unusual for a capital, not on a major river of any sort.   If you look at the large Manthrian map, the closest body of water is Bullpoll Lake, on the other side of the Jyth Farmlands which supply the capital.   I suppose I don't need to list all the reasons why any large medieval settlement would require large quantities of moving water for its development?  Think of Paris on the Seine, London on the Thames, Vienna on the Danube....all cities so closely bound up with their famous rivers that one cannot extricate them. 

Anyhow, I have two possible proposals/solutions for this.

A)  Bullpoll Lake has no outlet to the sea, though it has two forks supplying it.   The Manthrian Map could be altered to show a single river flowing out of the base of Bullpoll, curving westward through the Jyth Farmlands (explaining their fertility and ensuring adequate irrigation) and continuing westward through New Santhala - the major river around which the city grew up.

B)  There were fresh springs, rising mysteriously out of the even ground in the area, when the first settlers came through.  They were seen as magical, flowing constantly only to fall back into the earth without a visible means of exit (stream or river).   Always fresh water (devver's view: the springs rise from the Santharian water table but drain back down through many layers of limestone, old charcoal deposits, etc. and the 'used' water is thus purified by the time it reaches the water table again.  Or there really is a magical explanation and the waters come from the Void BELOW Caelereth and drain back into it, endlessly providing pure, fresh water...) would be a huge draw for settlers, and would attract many more people - hence building up the industry and population needed for a capital to arise.


EDIT:  Looking at the Southern Sarvonian map, it appears that the Thaehelvil flows PAST, on the western side, but not through New Santhala - though scale is hard to determine on these itty-bitty maps.   And checking the Thaehelvil entry, it states that it DOES flow through the city - in fact is integrally woven into the life of the city.

Quote: "In its lower courses it carries much of the unwanted waste materials from New-Santhala, however, this seems to sediment to the bottom of the river, leaving the shallower reaches less effected (sic). The river is also so important to argiculture (sic), it is often channeled for irrigation of croplands. In the city of New-Santhala, the river is also canalized in to a sort of proto-sewer system and a canal system. This canalization however does cause problems, including heavier floods than is (sic) usual within the city. As a result certain areas of the city have extensive flood defences, such as Levys (sic) and land use strategies, putting parkland along the vulnerable edges of the river."       

Now, I'm still not really seeing that reflected on the Manthrian or the River map, but ok, we can fudge a bit.  That gives us north-south movement, and a huge river which DOES flow to a port.  I still think Bullpoll should have an exit through Jyth INTO the Thaehelvil - that just makes sense geographically and gives a fresh stream right at the juncture of New Santhala, which considering how many towns upstream already use the Thaehelvil, might be helpful...

The Morgerim have recently fallen beneath my gaze (again!) during the research for my Masterwork, either as prospective buiders of the Gates of Hell'wrung, or at the very least, as aggressors in at least one siege.
In the absence of Thuja, would the MasterBard care to stand as temporary Dwarven advisor if I should need further assistance with this matter?

Tharoc, I think you can refer to them but not rework them, so yes, as long as you are trying to respect the original dever (Thuja's) intent, they can be cross-referenced. And of course I'm always at your disposal for any advice or assistance, as I know that works both ways!   (P.S. - a little package just went into the postal system with your name on it.  Expect a heavy white envelope to arrive through your mailslot in about three to four weeks!   :D )


Art, I understand that reserved entries should be respected, but Thuja has been almost invisible for several years now (and his last post to you from almost a year ago?)  How long can we leave such entries untouched, considering that people do want to be able to cross-reference them - in the process inevitably not knowing what has been developed only in someone else's mind, and probably taking things in a slightly different direction?   Such is the hazard and joy of working WITH others in a cooperative site - your ideas will change, flow, and be influenced by others' creativity.  But if someone isn't here to assiduously protect and build up an original concept, how long can we keep it static?     

I'm not suggesting that we should take the Morgerim and hand them over, to me, or Morden, or other interested parties - but they can't stay in limbo forever, either.  Just a thought.

OOH! I love receiving stuff in plain packaging! What might it be *he wonders, salivating at the possibilities*

I wasn't intending to rework them, Judy, merely to use them as a tool in my Masterwork. I'm undecided between 2 different means of building the Gates, and as the Morgerim are already there, I pencilled them in as prime suspects.
I'll just need to gather my thoughts and run them by you before I take that line of enquiry any further.

I'll get back to you this weekend.

*wanders off to wait by the letter-box* :grin: