Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Magic in the Lands of Caelereth => Topic started by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 13 June 2009, 06:38:47



Title: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 13 June 2009, 06:38:47
May I present the present incarnation of the thread formerly known as "A BRIEF Exposition of Coren's Thoughts on Magic" (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,10572.msg125852.html#msg125852)?

It is supposed to be a transcription of one of Frozenzephyr's lectures at the Academy of Ximax. The aim is to introduce newcomers to Ximaxian theory. I tried to keep it in plain Tharian, with lots of tables and diagrams to ease its absorption. Hopefully it will be accessible for developers who know very little about ximaxian magic. I think this marks - or rather consolidates, given my latest entries - a new Corenic Era of Simplicity!

I would appreciate if one of our general developers (such as Talia or Bard Judith) - in addition to our resident magic experts - could give the text a quick read-through. I want your honest opinion on whether the text is comprehendible for people not well-versed in ximaxian magic.

Hope you like it! After three years of procrastination, I've finally summarised that lengthy discussion into a format that can be uploaded to the site! :D

PS: I removed the earlier drafts and attached the final version as a Word document under this post.


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through Carall
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 13 June 2009, 08:25:39
I like it so far except for the definition of carallia.  I am pretty sure what you define is not possible.  Car'all as I was taught, is one large, fluid entity, not a sum of a series of smaller parts.  Every object has its own car'all, but that aura smoothly flows into that of the air around it, ect.  As such, I don't think such quantification can occur.  We can say every object has a car'all that creates it, but I don't believe it is possible to define where that of one object begins and another ends...


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 13 June 2009, 16:21:01
I don't think I said anything contradicting that. I believe I already mentioned that concepts like ounia and individual carallia are simplifications/metaphors we use to teach a mage what he has to do to cast a given spell. Now a universal aura flowing in a continuious stream from one object to another, with each entity representing a node or concentration in that unified field, might work well enough for elves but I think human mages need something a little bit more specific to use as a mental peg. I mean how can you teach someone how to move ounia from one carall to another if he has no idea where one carall  roughly ends and another begins - even if he cannot exactly pinpoint the line separating the two?

I'll make that more explicit. Thanks Drasil :)

Also, when you critique something always make sure that you enunciate the issue clearly and identify the sections of the text to which you are referring.  "except for the definition of carallia" doesn't really tell me much, given that there are two whole pages describing the various aspects of the carall. Then I can't tell what is confusing/what needs to be changed. ;)


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through Carall
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 13 June 2009, 23:54:12
Ah.  Well in this particular instance I was refering to here:

Quote
Individual entities are also said to have carallia (plural for carall), referring to their individual aura or carall through which they manifest in physical form. Hopefully the meaning will be apparent from the context

and here:

Quote
If thinking of carallia as interconnected puzzles helps you conceptualise how Ximaxian magic works


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 14 June 2009, 04:55:26
Added a few more sections, addressed Drasil's question, and updated the Word file above accordingly. Also added a number of other tables and diagrams. I've reworded the original to resemble a lecture format. So this entry is supposed to be a transcription of one of FrozenZephyr's lectures in the Academy of Ximax. I should be able to finish the rest tomorrow. I hope you enjoy the entry - let me know what you think!


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 15 June 2009, 02:27:35
Finished! Hurray! I am a free man now!

Comments welcome :D

(Final version attached under the first post of the thread)


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 15 June 2009, 02:44:54
I've read through the whole thing and I like it.  I am glad you took out the examples about the different Spheres since I didn't really agree with your metaphors there.  The only thing I am really concerned about is that it is described, Ecua and Xeua are so interdependent that it seems that niether are able to create a full effect independently.  It seems to be that either the two schools need to be fused or their differences(as in what a Xeua mage would be able to accomplish vs what an Ecua mage would be able to) need to be more clearly elaborated.

Edit:  The above might of been a bit confusing.  It is a fact that Xeua mages re-create links while Ecua mages destroy them, but in the example you have given you make it seems as though to create a finished product you first need to destroy and then you need to re-create.  In this model, niether school would be able to function independently, which can be problematic.

Also, I think the chart showing Idea, car'all, Form, Content, Structure, Substance is a bit confusing.  The way you have described it, Form dictates Strucutre(part of Content) which dictates Substance.  Rather then putting Content(which as it is described, is subject to Form) on the same level as Form, at least to me, it would make more logical sense to put it underneath it and then to place Structure under Content and Substance under Structure and finally Physical entity on the bottom.  It would make the table appear more logical and easier to understand even though you risk visually losing the idea of the "hierarchy" as you have it.  Another way to deal with the problem would be to put in two charts, leaving one the way you have it to show the "Hierarchy" in concept and having another to show how the different tiers affect each other in actuality.


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 15 June 2009, 03:21:03
- At the risk of sounding haughty, I am going to quote a section of the text back at you: Examples are useful only to the extent they help us conceptualise the abstract theory; we should not allow analogies to become our masters. This is not a dissertation on the finer points of Xeua and Ecua, or the differences between the two. I used the metaphor of the pink pants to compare the archschools with raw magic. In light of that purpose, it would have been confusing to spell out the technical aspects of link-making and breaking. At any rate, I cannot summarise something that has not been written in the first place! :P To answer your question: I think Rayne had come up with a theory of inertia to explain how the two schools could function independently of one another. The idea is that a Xeuatan can achieve effects that would normally be obtained by link-breaking due to the natural inertia of a carall: When you create or strengthen certain links in certain places, that weakens other links in another part of the carall. The converse is true for Ecua.

This is supposed to be one of the very first lectures novices encounter at the Academy. Should we really assault them with the complex theories on how Xeua, which is based on link-making, can achieve effects that require some links to be severed, without actually using direct link-breaking? I think there is a reason Ximaxian mages cannot even begin to study Xeua/Ecua and switch over to the Archschools until he reaches a high level in one of the Elemental schools.

The person you really want is Rayne!  :buck: She's the one who knows about all this Xeua and Ecua business :P


- Re the composition of the Carall chart: I disagree. Two issues:
(i) "The way you have described it, Form dictates Strucutre(part of Content) which dictates Substance" That last part is not correct. Structure does NOT dictate Substance. Substance is the material, the ounia that's there; Structure merely describes the way in which that Substance happens to be arranged. You cannot change the Substance of a carall by changing its Structure: Modifying links and moving ounia around may change which qualities are expressed and their intensity, but it will not suddenly convert water ounia into wind ounia. That is why the two are interconnected aspects of the Carall's Content. There is no hierarchy between Substance and Structure. One cannot exist without the other; they exist in relation to one another; the fact that one exists implies the existence of the other.

(ii) The Carall has two faces: a Form and a Content. Form and Content are not like Structure and Substance, in that Content presupposes a Form. So in one sense, Form must have come first. The reason I did not list them one under the other is because that would imply that there are two subsequent stages a carall passes through. Instead, Form and Content are two aspects of the same carall which exist simulatenously.

Does that clarify the matter somewhat?


PS: +1 Aura to Drasil for his perseverance and meticulousness in commenting on this entry. Much appreciated!


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 15 June 2009, 04:11:16
First issue:  Meh...I still am going to argue the two ought to be fused next time I see her.  But until then I shall just live with it  ;)

Second Issue: It makes more sense, though I always have been fuzzy on the concept behind Form.  The chart confusion is probably just a physical manifestation of that inability to understand it(the concept of Form).   :P


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 15 June 2009, 04:16:06
Think of Form as the blueprint, the pattern.

EDIT: And do the homework at the end of the entry ;P


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Mina on 15 June 2009, 23:21:56
I was feeling a bit lost until I realised what you call Idea is what I've been calling Form, and what you call Form is what I've been calling Pattern.   :lol:

I'm liking it so far, but I'm not feeling very well at the moment and I'm not sure if I could finish reading it, so I think I'll wait till tomorrow or so before actually commenting. 


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 15 June 2009, 23:58:15
No worries! I hope you get better soon!


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Mina on 17 June 2009, 14:09:00
Finally finished reading.   :buck:  Let's see...

You have "THE CARALL" representing a different concept from "the Carall".  This isn't a problem in writing, but how would they be distinguished in speech?  There is the term "Universal Carall", but it's stated in the entry as being a Human term, so there's still the problem of how the Elves refer to it in speech.  (BTW, isn't it spelled Car'all, or was the spelling changed while I was away?)   

Similarly, what do the parts in brackets represent?  Some look like they could be part of the lecture itself, but others seem more like they were added later by the transcriber/editor to clarify certain things. 

Quote
Reader be warned.
That sounds like an odd thing to say in a lecture. 

The entry goes quite a bit into what ounia are, but what about xeua links?  Or maybe that's reserved for more advanced students? 

Should there be a section on the Weavers at all?  The original concept was a group of mages so secretive that no one outside of their order knows about them.  Later I think Rayne reworked them into mythical beings.  Neither seem to be the sort of thing that would fit into a such a lecture. 

Well, I think that's more or less it as far as the entry concerned.  Nothing major.   :)

I have a couple of somewhat related questions though. 

1. Are there actually any Raw mages, or people believed to be Raw mages, or is it something predicted by Ximaxian theories but not yet proven? 

2. Am I right to say that not all of the Universal Car'all is qualified, and that Raw mages may unqualify or qualify energy in order to create their effects? 

Hmm...homework?   :shocked: 
Quote from: Mina's Answers (highlight to read)
Sand particlesOunia
Sand-castleIndividual Aura
Act of building the sand-castleSpellcasting
SandSubstance
BeachUniversal aura
Castle coneptIdea
Shape of sand-castleStructure
Mould for sand-castleForm
Sand-castle with mouldIndividual Aura


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 17 June 2009, 16:31:12
I had  a very brief look at it, and the "lecture type" looks great. That does not mean, that the content is easier. If you want to have a more thorough check, sentence by sentence (and me understanding it finally), I need more time (two or three weeks). For it needs some thorough thinking through and at some points I'm at the limit of my English understanding. However, with some re-formulation of some sentences it might be fit afterwards for simpler minds to understand it ;) . :D


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 18 June 2009, 07:24:33
Suggested answer to Mina's question:

How about you change it up so that

The Car'all(always spoken with the article in front of it and written with a capitalized T and C) i= THE CAR'ALL in your current draft

and simply

car'all = the car'all(Always written and spoken in all lower case without an article and if one is gramatically needed[which should be rare] use a [also lowercase]


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Falethas Whisperwind on 18 June 2009, 22:42:44
Coren, you're unfairly talented at this sort of stuff. Just thought you should know.   :jawdrop:  You have a gift for making all of the complex magical theory we've got going here easier to understand, and I commend you for that. A lot.
Can I give out aura points? I don't really know, I'm not familiar with the system...but +1 aura to you (I hope) for your magical adeptness.

Anyways – just popped in to drop some info in response to Mina's question:

Quote
(BTW, isn't it spelled Car'all, or was the spelling changed while I was away?)

As far as the elves are concerned, there is cár'áll (and plural, cár'allía), theoretically composed of the oún (rather, many ounía), which are connected by xeuá links.

I'd think it natural, though, that through the years human mages have simplified those burdensome beasts of orthography and now speak in terms of the carall (carallia) and its ounia (singular oun). Lord knows the elves are crazy anyways.

EDIT: Ah, I see that I can't add aura. But it's the thought that counts, eh?


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Miraran Tehuriden on 19 June 2009, 01:49:08
I did it for you ;)

Coren aura +1!


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 20 June 2009, 02:55:21
Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to comment on this!

@ Quel: Thanks for the kind words! You made my day! I'm really glad it's intelligible!

@ Talia: :hug: Thanks!

@ Mina:

- "Reader be warned" - umm, yeah... That must have slipped...

- Spelling of carall: Ditto what Quel said. Those apostrophes and accents got a bit burdensome, so I.. well... got rid of them...

- Re Parts in brackets - they all represent asides FrozenZephyr makes in the lecture.

- Universal Carall: This is sort of tied to the point above: That's why I always added the clarification/aside, "universal", in brackets afterwards. Frozenzephyr making clear which term he is referring to as he speaks.

- Re Q2: Yes.

- Re Homework: You used "individual aura" twice, but omitted Content. (Btw, it isn't a perfect analogy - especially as regards the shape of the sand-castle and the mould used. But nothing better occurred to me at the time)

- Re Q1: I don't think I can decide this single-handedly. Seems to be a development issue that requires discussion/voting. Personally, I would prefer it if there actually are people believed to be Raw mages - in addition to all the mythology surrounding Weavers. They need not be "strong" raw magi, mind you. I just think there might be a lot of magic on different continents (or certain effects achieved by those systems) that might not be reproducible by ordinary Ximaxian magic and might need to be explained by reference to RM instead. Could be a moot point among Ximaxians - some claiming these are examples (if primitive) of RM, others rejecting it.

- Re Weavers: Ok. Will make the allusion more oblique. I just wanted that paragraph there so that I don't forget my thoughts on Weavers come next year.

- Re Xeua links: To be honest, I've never given much thought to what they are and how they operate. So they must be the subject matter of another "lecture" - as you say, they probably are too technical for an introductory seminar anyway.

Thanks again!


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 20 June 2009, 03:12:28
Attachment updated! Additions following Mina's comments in green. :)

Blarrow?


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Drasil Razorfang on 21 June 2009, 01:56:40
Looks fine to me and you addressed all of Mina's comments.  Since the update is this weekend I can't think of any reasons why we shouldn't put this up.


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Mina on 21 June 2009, 15:30:41
Yup, it should be alright. 

I think my question about Universal Carall terminology might have been misunderstood though.  What I meant was, since the entry seems to say that "Universal Carall" is a Human term, and since capital and lower case letters don't sound any different in speech, do Elves have some way of distinguishing the Universal and Individual Carall concepts in speech, or do they eg. depend on context to tell the difference?  But come to think of it, this doesn't really matter for this entry. 

Quote
I just think there might be a lot of magic on different continents (or certain effects achieved by those systems) that might not be reproducible by ordinary Ximaxian magic and might need to be explained by reference to RM instead. Could be a moot point among Ximaxians - some claiming these are examples (if primitive) of RM, others rejecting it.
I agree.  That's probably a good way to handle it.  Though one wonders why Ximaxians haven't tried to figure out how to perform Raw magic yet.  Or have they?   :D


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Bard Judith on 21 June 2009, 19:31:52
Wonderful!  I have the sense that I'm sitting being lectured at - and yet enjoying it, with the academic wit spiking the technical details...   reminds me of some of my more lovable professors....

Some nits to pick, mostly to do with vocabulary as I really can't know whether the technical/magickal details are accurate - I'm the one learning from this lecture!


'sermon' - are we all ok with that?  I presume priests of various gods can have sermons, hymns, chants, and the like?

'electricity' - er, I think we MIGHT have observed static electricity and lightning but don't have the concept of 'electric force' in quite so modern a word.   You could substitute 'alsetism' as another example.

'puritans' - change to 'purists' - same meaning without referring to the specific historical group

'prisms' - I guess this is all right - if we have the technology to create lenses, we should certainly be able to observe how light is split by a prism.  Though I don't know if you can merely assume the conclusion that it 'filters out only the X light' quite so complacently.....

'tweezers'.... too reminiscent of sixties eyebrow-plucking devices - perhaps 'pincers' or 'tongs' would give a more archaic feel?

"But you can funnel the Form down from Human to Man (as opposed to Woman) than to Old Man than to Sick Old Man etc. "   - 'then', not 'than'

" Don’t ask what a master of Resonance Magic will do with pinks pants – powerful man"  should be 'pink pants' and 'men'  (and by the way I LOVE that example AND the fact that you then give the students mental homework with the next example! 

I don't think 'transpose' is quite the right word there though - let me think about that...

Why does it seem to end so suddenly with that example, and no reference to elephants?  Am I reading an incomplete copy?


Again, this is a brilliant piece of work.  A much-deserved aura point for you, dear Professor Zephyr....



Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 21 June 2009, 20:24:13
Ah, I should have spotted those (especially the simple typos like th(a)n, m(a)n, pink(s) etc) - thanks Judith! Btw, you have the correct version. The sand-elephant morphed into a castle somewhere between the first and second draft but a few of them must have been hiding in the crevices of the text ;) Sorry about that!

I'll fix those and upload a new version :)

@Mina: Ah, I see what you mean. I guess my point was that when they use the word car'all, elves only refer to the Universal Aura (ie they don't really buy this idea of individual carallia). But as you say, that's a discussion for another time.

Re Raw magic: I don't know! :D I make these up as I go along, you know... ;)


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 21 June 2009, 20:35:13
Done! Updated version posted. I've read through it again - hopefully I did not miss any typos this time! I must be getting sloppier  :huh:


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 25 June 2009, 04:47:10
Hmm, downloaded it already last week and didn't see, that it was already blarrowed. I did so far the first part only anyway. as I spent time, I'll post it, but ignore it, if you like.

*******
Quote
In fact you will spend a whole semester introducing yourselves to the Carall concept...


Our seminar is structured in two parts. In the first section – which is today’s class – you will mainly be lectured at. Next week we shall devote the entire session to questions and answers. That said, should you require further clarification you are welcome to interrupt me at any point. You need not worry about disrupting the lecture; if I do not wish to deal with your query, I will ignore you anyway.

That might be a bit misleading. You say, you will need a whole semester, and then you pack it in today‘s class?

The definition of Carall

Quote
A note on terminology: The term “carall” can refer to a number of different concepts. “THE CARALL” (in capitals) refers to the Universal Carall, the aura that underlies the whole universe. “Carall” without any articles (a/the) usually denotes auratic energy, the purest form of energy from which all matter and other forms of energy descend

Not having read more, I have one question - where is the difference between ‚Universal Carall‘ and ‚auratic energy‘, it seems to me, that it could be the same.

Universal Carall = the aura that underlies the whole universe.
Carall = auratic energy, the purest form of energy (from which all matter and other forms of energy descend)
Why do they not derive from the Universal CARALL? I have problems with seeing a different concept.


The Universal Carall: the uncarved block
Quote

This is why elves see the aura as “possibilities of creation” and why their ancient texts speak of carall as the “infinite potential” for being. The Carall is this pure, unprocessed energy. It is the “uncarved block” that harbours infinite possibilities of creation in it.

Now you write it in small letters - should the not be capitals or should you not use Universal carall ever time?


Quote
Yada yada yada and so on and so forth. As I am aware that you have a very entertaining lecture on Elven Cosmology scheduled right after this one, I shall say no more on this. Moving on:


 LOL, your lecturer surely would have cut that yada out!


The Four Elemental Conditions of the Carall

You suddenly introduce „Prime Energy“ - that is a bit disturbing, even if you explain it in brackets. Maybe you should more clearly mention at  the beginning the synonyms.

Quote
Carall then is white light and different elemental energies the different colours of the spectrum.
Hey! That is pretty modern...

Quote
According to Ximaxian theorists, an oun is only a very concentrated “package” of energy, but due to its incredible density (intensity?) it can be conceived of as a particle while the carall as a whole must be thought of as a wave.

Oh, that is very advanced, modern physics disguised?

Quote
Notice that an oun is the Prime Elemental Entity. In a sense ounia are “quantified”; they are the smallest units of the carall – you either move an oun or don’t, there is no such thing as “adding half an oun” to this or that part of the carall.

Now, that comes a bit quick, why can I not imagine a smaller quantity of ‚concentration of elemental energy.‘ ?

Quote
an “oun” (plural: ounia) is an immense concentration of elemental energy.

If there would not stand ‚immense‘ quantity, then I could say, that an oun is the smallest possible concentration of the Prime Energy, below , it would cease to exist...



Well, I think I spare myself reading more for the purpose to comment - I might find more ;)


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 25 June 2009, 05:01:25
Thanks Talia! Too tired right now, so I'll get to it tomorrow. I don't really mind it if we miss this update. It can always go up later. Thanks for taking the time :hug:


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 09 July 2009, 03:06:22
Coren, I don't think I'll get around to read this so in depth, that I can give some usefull comments. I have to print it out and take it with me, when we are away from home next time. If there is really something which needs to be altered, that is surely possible later as well.

I promise I will read it , otherwise I might invent things clerics can do which are impossible.. ;)


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 09 July 2009, 03:43:51
Sure Talia - don't stress yourself over it. Shall I prepare and send it to Arti then? Or do you want the uploading to wait until you have a look over it? Let me know. Either way is fine with me


PS: I'll try to respond to and integrate your comments tomorrow :)


Title: Re: An Introduction to Ximaxian Magic through the Carall
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 09 July 2009, 04:06:03
No, send it to Art, then I will surely find the time to read them :D