Santharian Development

Organization and General Discussions => The Continent of Nybelmar => Topic started by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 14 January 2010, 00:41:34



Title: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 14 January 2010, 00:41:34
PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD

The purpose of this thread is to:
(a) brainstorm the Cloud Elves and bounce ideas off each other,
(b) discuss whether these concepts work in the greater scheme of Nybelmar,
(c) offer suggestions and/or alternatives,
(d) raise objections,
(e) approve each element.

Once we reach consensus on an element, Rayne will write a first draft and post it in this thread. After that first draft is approved, Rayne will post the edited version in the Paelrhem tribe entry (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14189.0.html). If you have any grammatical/stylistic amendments etc, do NOT post them here; please post them there.


To reiterate:  Any discussion/alterations/suggestions regarding the concept should take place here. Any discussion/alterations regarding the entry should be posted in the Paelrhem tribe entry (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14189.0.html).




RULES OF THE GAME

1. Keep up with the discussion: Read what people have written, and follow the discussion. Please do not make semantically-null statements. This tends to happen when people reply/object to a statement without addressing the points raised in it. To make life easier for everyone (for we aim to please ;)), I will maintain Discussion Points à la Rayne summarising what has been discussed so far, and update these regularly.

[More may come should the need arise]



DISCUSSION POINTS

Gray = Decided
Lime = Active


0. Anything I missed?


RE: SOCIETY & CULTURE

1. How reclusive are the Cloud Elves?  Have they withdrawn completely from other Nybelmar tribes (except the nomadic Aelónrhim elves)? Related to this: With whom do they have contact? With whom do they trade? Do they (or: have they) ever get involved in the affairs of neighbouring nations? (ie does their Kayr ancestry shine through?

2. Housing
DECISION: Keep cave-network carved into the cliff faces. Add: floating hills. For details, please see the updated Paelrhem tribe entry (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14189.0.html), 'Housing' & 'Territory'.

3. Where exactly are their settlements? Would they live close enough to the inland rivers to be able to farm rice (rizjo)?

4. With whom do they trade? What do they trade?
  • From whom would they get materials for they clothing?

5. How literate are the Cloud Elves?
Quote
(Rayne) I would think they would be able to read and write on a basic level, but I really don't see the necessity for high literacy, since they are not as concerned with the collection of knowledge.
DECISION: In the entry, Rayne will explain why the CE developed an oral tradition rather than a written one - namely: (i) she will tie this to their lifestyle and the value the CE place on transience, and (ii) a Santharianised version of the conversation between Phaedrus and Socrates.

6. Occupations?


RE: TERRITORY / REALM

7. What does their territory look like? Geographical features?
DECISION: Additions: Floating Hills above the valleys of Taegion Naevrath/Madroth. A special sub-specie of silkel trees growing on those Floating Hills. Please see the updated Paelrhem tribe entry (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14189.0.html). We'll revisit this topic again when it's time to write the place/state entry. For now I think we have agreed on enough of the basics - they can always be expanded later. :)



8. Climate/weather?


RE: RELIGION

9. Would they read the Carpa'dosia?  
DECISION: Summary of discussion between Rakshiri/Koldar & Rayne: Yes. Connected to the literacy issue (see Q5 above): There are a few elves who can read, and these teach the Carpa'dosia orally.

10. Do they believe in the Aviaria? If so, would the names of the deities be different?
DECISION: Summary of discussion between Rakshiri/Koldar & Rayne: Yes. Falethas & Rayne will discuss whether the deities would be known by a different name and whether there are any other linguistic changes necessary for Nybelmarian elves.




NEXT STEPS

Coren:
  • Update the thread/discussion questions & summarise what's been discussed so far - on-going responsibilty

[...]

Rayne:
  • Re Carpadosia/Aviaria: email Koldar (and Viresse?) - Done
  • Re linguistic issues: Open a new discussion thread & contact Falethas

[...]


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 14 January 2010, 00:49:41
(COREN)

Quote
(There arent any Elven Forests in Northwestern Nybelmar)

Quote
(No Elves likely to be found in their territory)

Yes, there are, Deci: Sartheran Elves  :cool: - Just because there aren't little tree icons on a map does not mean that the area is entirely devoid of forests. I think the convention is that we only mark jungles / large forests on the map. Those mountain ranges within the Sartheran realm are of course covered by a carpet of trees, as most mountains are.

Maybe it would be a good idea to expand the territory/spottings to north-eastern Nybelmar as well. If I recall correctly, there should be a lot of pointy ears around that area - check the political maps. Pheranrhim, cloud/mist elves (paelrhim?), aelonrhim nomads etc - the names escape me atm...

Rayne, maybe you would be interested in developing the Cloud Elves? I think the presence of mists/clouds in that area gave those elves their name. Imagine these Ferlawyng coiling around cloudy mountaintops, gliding through misty valleys, drifting above the plateaus etc ;) Might reinforce the "swimming in air" theme?

Gotta run now!



(DECIPHER)

I meant the Kaerethi Peninsula  :buck:


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Rayne (Alŭr) on 14 January 2010, 04:04:00
Thank you so much for looking over this, Deci! I took almost all your corrections. There were just a few things I didn't:

Quote
(then what prevents it from burning straight through the Ferlawyng itself?)
I don't think mucus is a Santharian word. Can it be? And I do say "almost anything"?  ;)

Quote
('royal' seems too ambiguous, or at least doesnt fit in my mind somehow. Since, as a Morchini, she would have little grasp of 'elegant Queens' etc., I think a suitable substitute would be 'like the dress of royalty')
"Like the dress of royalty" and "like the dress of a royal" seem almost synonymous to me.

Quote
You mention seasonal differences above...but my only wonder is that are Jungles actually affected that much winter? The Amazon doesnt seem to shed all of its leaves in December, after all. Mira also used some sort of geographical trick so that the climate in the Drifting Woods is always quite humind...I think.
If the leaves don't fall, I may want to consider a different territory.  :undecided:


Coren: I would be very interested in Cloud Elves (or any other elven tribes), though I'm not sure what you might have in mind, and of course I'm terribly ignorant about Nybelmarian history. If you have some basic information (particularly location/living terrain, and any magical/physical/behavioral qualities they should have), I would be glad to start work on such a tribe.  :heart:


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 14 January 2010, 04:13:33
At the speed you are working, it will probably take less time for you to write the entry than me to put together an outline :P I'll dig around to see what we already have on them (to be honest, I don't think we have much). Let me know if you guys find anything as well.

In the meantime, maybe read over the ounia entry again? There are quite a few typographical errors there. And some sentences, although they use simple words, are way too convoluted. Knowing the skill set you carry, I know you can do a lot better Rayne! ;)



Hmm.. I don't think DW fits - how do these huge creatures navigate a mangrove forest and all its intertwined branches. Much more elegant to have them drifting through mist ;) Maybe move them to the NE? It would also give you a good starting point for your new tribe - an "anchor" or central point around which the project can be structured


Btw, feel free to volunteer for any of the elven tribes on Nybelmar. The only one I need to write myself is the Sartheran Elves, as there was a lot of discussion/brainstorming concerning them waaaaaay back that no-else has access to atm.


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 14 January 2010, 04:33:57

Coren: I would be very interested in Cloud Elves (or any other elven tribes), though I'm not sure what you might have in mind, and of course I'm terribly ignorant about Nybelmarian history. If you have some basic information (particularly location/living terrain, and any magical/physical/behavioral qualities they should have), I would be glad to start work on such a tribe.  :heart:

That is, until she starts a new semester, and we don't see her again.  :cry:


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Rayne (Alŭr) on 14 January 2010, 06:38:34
That is, until she starts a new semester, and we don't see her again.  :cry:
My semester has actually already started. I know that between two of my four classes, I have over 250 pages of reading due in the next week. :rolleyes:

We'll see, though. In all honesty, if I'm not doing something productive in every moment, I'm not happy.  ;)


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 14 January 2010, 07:24:19
It is quite amazing actually. How amazingly adaptable the human body is. If you train yourself (that is: if you are forced to train yourself) to sleep 4 hours a day, somewhere down the line 5 hours actually starts feeling like a luxury. (Or: I must have elvish blood)

Oh, well... I have a gap year coming up. I plan on going into hibernation, starting July 2010. ;)

- strikes a page off his calendar: "One down, 178 more to go" -



Feel free to start brainstorming on those elves - and on how to integrate the Ferlawyng, should you so wish, to the project


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Rayne (Alŭr) on 17 January 2010, 01:28:42
Despite much research, including wandering [... Do I really want to make this corny allusion...] lonely as a cloud through the Nybelmarian forums, I have not been able to find mention of Cloud Elves. Where do they live? Do they live in the forest? Mountains? And what is their relationship to other surrounding tribes? Are they recluse, convivial? And do elves in Nybelmar still subscribe to belief in Ava and the Carpa'dosia?

Perhaps you might provide for these sorts of basic questions, Coren? From there I can decide whether or not to integrate the Ferlawyng into the entry, or whether I should perhaps claim one of Kalina's undeveloped dragons (Perhaps the Silver dragon or Wind dragon) for this tribe. I do like the idea of an elven tribe close to a type of dragon--though if we do this, it might be best to have them be fairly recluse.


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 17 January 2010, 01:58:17
Try searching for "Paélrhem" (allowing for misspellings such as Paelrhim, Paelrhem etc)

I don't know if Koldar/Smith developed anything in relation to them. If you can't find anything, I would be happy to invent some of the essential facts for you  :grin:

Also, perhaps these maps will help (attached).

PS: The maps were works-in-progress, so most of the territories are not set in stone. As a rule of thumb though they are more or less accurate. The only discrepancy that jumps at me atm is the size of Loreney: it should be a lot smaller.



EDIT: I'd prefer if you used the Ferlawyng. Nybelmar has too many dragons. Koldar's overarching concept was that Nybelmar should be exotic. So we generally try to avoid things which can be found on the Sarvonian continent. Since dragons seems to be plentiful there, it would be best to head in a new direction.


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 17 January 2010, 02:08:25
Ah, just remembered this: http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,12762.0.html


EDIT: Apparently, "pael" means mist in elvish. Hmm... I still like "Cloud Elves" better  :cool:

EDIT-2: Shall we split this thread? These last posts really aren't about the ferlawyng. I propose that we (by that I mean you, as I do cannot exercise moderator powers here) move the discussion on Paelrhem to the Nybelmar board.


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Rayne (Alŭr) on 17 January 2010, 02:12:40
Ah! A name is helpful. I was able to find the following:

Quote
- The Paélrhem (Mist Elves)
When the Coórhem and Kaŭrrhem broke into their civil war, the Unrá'rhem moved south to join the Korweyn Empire. However, another band travelled north, through the lands of the Aelónrhim nomads, and settled their own nation in the Taegion Madroth and Taegion Naevreth, all the way up to the cliffs by the sea. This offshoot of the Kaŭr began to call themselves the Mist Elves, as the area they settled was found to have a thick blancket of mist wafting frequently about it.

The territory seems very large to me, but perhaps this is because Nybelmar is smaller and my mental proportions are a bit off.

The problem with the Ferlawyng is that they are very much designed for forest-dwelling, not cliff-dwelling. Everything from territory, to mating, to researchers, to colors would have to change. I'm not fond of the idea of making this entry the "Forest Ferlawyng" entry and making another for "Mist/Cloud Ferlawyngs," but that's the best option I see right now.


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 17 January 2010, 02:30:12
1) I've made a few edits to my previous posts. See above.

2) It seems we chanced on the same entry. See also the "eastern Nybelmar" section in Eleyr's post:

Quote
Paélrhem Settlements
In the Taegions Madroth and Naevreth, a group of elves, descendants of the Kaýr, have established their own cities in the misty plains, leading all the way up to the cliffs by the sea. Originating as a faction that fled north when the Fallaerion Gaeldorioth broke out into civil war, they remain a relatively tranquil people in the north. Their closest allies are the Aelónrhim nomads, who share their dedication to peace, and they will occasionally trade products with them, visiting their sole permanent settlement about once a year, and trading with the various caravans.

You can look up the surrounding tribes. NB: Since the posting of that overview the Gondolwain (aka Gondolwenmith) have been invented.

3) The territory should remain as-is.

4) Rayne, before you start writing anything, can you please post a bullet-style brainstorm first? That makes life easier for me :D I can check/approve/shoot down concepts a lot more quickly that way from a "Nybelmar-development perspective"

I could also volunteer to co-author the entry, should you so wish.

5) Re forests (or lack thereof) in Cloud Elf territory:

That shouldn't be a problem. See those little mountains to the north/north-western section of that isthmus,  around "th" of "Taegion Naevrath"? (a cleaner, hi-res version of the map may help; attached) Those could be mountainous forests - that is: forests, with the underlying land being a mountain range rather than a flat plain.

I am not sure if I want those flat looking areas around the rivers to be plains or valleys. We might introduce a more mountainous terrain (or perhaps a slightly less flat one). One thing I do NOT want however is to have yet another "elven forest" replacing them on the map  :buck:

Mira is re-doing the Nybelmar maps, so he should be able to incorporate requests, if we ask nicely. (Or: we could intimidate him :P )

The cliffs would be, well, cliffs. Very high ones. Terminating abruptly. Btw, below the cliffs, between the rock face and the coast would be a few Gondolwain settlements (see map). We could discuss these as things progress.


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 17 January 2010, 02:48:35
Using the 'Construction Zone' would give us a forum to discuss anything going on with the Cloud Elves...at least in the early idea conception stage...

Deci


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 17 January 2010, 02:57:24
I would actually suggest opening a new thread. The "Construction Zone" is meant to be for announcements mainly - that is: to alert people to a new concept being put forward rather than to discuss it. Otherwise that thread gets cluttered.

Once again: I can't split this post and move it, so if someone with the requisite power could do it, that would be great!


Title: Ferlawyng
Post by: Decipher Ziron on 17 January 2010, 03:01:11
i.e. me?  :grin:


Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alŭr) on 17 January 2010, 08:15:38
Please review the WIP for the Paélrhem Elves (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14189.msg177852/topicseen.html)! Let me know if I've done anything wrong.

My current issues are:
1) Would Paélrhem Elves read the Carpa'dosia? I assume they would, since supposedly all elves do. Would their readings be different? After all, the name of Ava has changed.

2) Related to the above, would Paélrhem Elves be literate? I would think they would be able to read and write on a basic level, but I really don't see the necessity for high literacy, since they are not as concerned with the collection of knowledge.

3) Also related to the above, would the names for the Aviaria be different? Ysha instead of Eyasha, Veras instead of Baveras, Garas insead of Grothar? The problem is that if they are reading the Carpa'dosia, these names are in writing and thus would not change much if at all. I'm not sure how Koldar justified his name change.

4) Would they live close enough to the inland rivers to be able to farm rice (rizjo)?

5) Would they be able to get cloth from the nomadic Aelónrhim? I'm trying to figure out where their materials would come from before I launch into describing clothing.


Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 17 January 2010, 18:37:47
Hi! Just to let you know, I will be tidying up the thread later on today. (Don't know if I'll get a chance to respond to queries as well). I might delete or merge some posts, so do not be alarmed if your post counts wobble a bit! :)



Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 18 January 2010, 19:05:10
Quote
2. Housing (more to come)
Quote
7. What does their territory look like?

A suggestion (that is: in addition to the caves): How about floating hills? These Taegions don't have to be flat plains. I am leaning towards keeping some flat lands around the rivers and having 'valleys' the rest of the way up to the cliffs. Now imagine hills and smaller mounds, mists coiling around their cones, "drifting" over these valleys and casting shadows on the landscape?

What better way to be close to the clouds? - what sort of housing/structures would they have built on these hills though? Maybe they could have cave/cliff networks around the perimeter of these floating hills as well!

My suggestion seems to be in line with your original concept: "[...] and have naturally fashioned their living spaces in such a way that they may be close to both the sky and sea. [...] Despite its complexity, the Paélrhem housing labyrinths are always close to the cliff face so that no elf is ever far from the ocean and sky. No matter where you are in this structure, you can always hear the rush of the ocean and the sound of gulls, feel the winds off the ocean winding through the passages, and smell the salt and brine of the sea."


NB: Maybe they could even have magic that allows them to influence the movement of these floating hills.  So, Cloud Elf settlements are hard to find not only because of the misdirection spells around them, but also because they shift around! One year you have these two neighbouring settlements, the next one of them has decided to "visit" another settlement across their realm. We might even be able to tie this in with the elven belief in the interconnectedness of all things, as well as the transient, ever-changing nature of clouds and the sea. These settlements continually move, constantly making new connections and dissipating others, in an eternal, complicated dance across the heavens.

Thus, maps of their realm would never remain accurate for any extended period of time - and would constantly have to be updated. (How annoying would that be to the Gondolwain! :grin: )

Hmm... I'm on a roll now. Maybe as settlements come near each other and decide to stay that way, the cloud elves link them by bridges. (Of what material? Rope bridges? Cloud/mist?) Maybe some of the bigger settlements could be relatively more stable/stationary? So many possibilities!



Quote
8. Climate/weather?
- Northern Nybelmar, so should be cooler than the south. Definitely not tropical. Ferlawyn need deciduous trees, so this again points to a non-tropical climate. I presume it would be slightly colder than the climate described in the  Gondolwain (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/gondolwenmith.htm) entry (see the penultimate paragraph of "Environment"), given the higher latitude and the absence of underground hot-water springs.

- Obviously, lots of mists & clouds.

- I have a suggestion: I want to avoid the "mysterious, solemn elves/elven realm shrouded in mists" cliche as much as possible. Plus, fog 24/7 must be rather depressing :P So I propose this: For two months every year,  the mists enveloping their realm clear up; the clouds part to let shafts of sunshine light up the land and the fleeting shadows/fog retreat into their crevices. This opens up a lot of festival/myth options as well for that time of the year. Also ties in well with my other proposals concerning the Gondolwain (see above).

(NB: The Gondolith mainland is covered in mists for 2 months every year. Maybe the two periods could be synchronised - the two months during which the Gondolith experience mists/fog are the only two months during which the mists over the Cloud Elf realm clears. Reinforces the "two different faces of the ocean" idea - whilst Gondolwain and Cloud Elves are both very connected to the sea/sky, their personalities are almost diametrically opposite: extroverts, individualists, vivacious (Gondolwen) vs reclusive, communal, solemn(?) (Cloud Elves)



Quote
4. With whom do they trade? What do they trade?
- From whom would they get materials for they clothing?

- coughs & surreptitiously slips a small note http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/gondolwenmith.htm (http://)-

I like the minimal clothing idea! Fits the whole clouds, surf and sky theme  :thumbup: Mention: scanty clothing + climate of the region = Cloud Elves don't get cold. Let's bring out as many of the physiological difference between humans and elves as possible - as you say, developers need to drive home the point that the elves of this world are not men with pointy ears! (I think the elven race entry mentions that elves aren't affected by the weather to the same degree humans are - maybe Cloud Elves all the more so?)

An :idea: just occurred to me: If we want to accentuate the idea that (Cloud) Elves reflect their surroundings ("towering cliffs wrapped in clouds"), shouldn't we make them taller than the Kayr? Again, would underline the 'otherness' of the elves.



Also, do you want to write this entry yourself or would you like co-author it with me? I need an express answer on this point so that I can adjust my timetable accordingly.


Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alŭr) on 19 January 2010, 02:03:45
This set-up looks extremely familiar. Perhaps Santharian discussion techniques are rubbing off on Nybelmarians?

Your PM told me to go ahead and respond, but I know your not finished with your post. Please don't edit your above post after this! It'll make things far too confusing.


Quote
7. What does their territory look like?
I like the idea of floating hills, though I suppose it would be therefore difficult to live on these hills. Cloud elves do not have wings, and I would rather not give them the kind of magic that allows them to float and fly around, because then it gets to be a little silly, as I see it, and doesn't reflect the elven uses of magic. There would therefore need to be some other way to get to these floating hills. I don't have any ideas right off the top of my head. I mean, the ferlawyng would be useful, but a child isn't born with one.

I like the bridges, only it seems a bit too constricting to me. If there were some way to make these bridges temporary, that might work, though it still doesn't solve the issue of danger from falling.  :undecided:

You also bring up an interesting issue: mist or clouds. Their name means "mist," and the word has different connotations to me than "clouds." I am quite fond of mist, to be honest. I grew up in California, relatively close to the ocean, and I remember many summer mornings awaking and peeking outside to find my world covered in soft mists, half covering the ground, clinging to the trees, softening the scene--little hummingbirds flittering through it. Fond of the beauty and mystery created by mists, I'm tempted to keep that particular association.


Quote
8. Climate/weather?

Quote
- Northern Nybelmar, so should be cooler than the south. Definitely not tropical. Ferlawyn need deciduous trees, so this again points to a non-tropical climate. I presume it would be slightly colder than the climate described in the  Gondolwain (http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/gondolwenmith.htm) entry (see the penultimate paragraph of "Environment"), given the higher latitude and the absence of underground hot-water springs.

The ferlawyng isn't going to work in this sort of environment, I don't think. I have a feeling I may need to make a lot of major changes to the entry in order to have in live comfortably with these elves. If the elves aren't living in forests, they're not going to be interacting with the ferlawyng much. We therefore need a ferlawyng that perhaps hides in the mists rather than the forests, lays its "eggs" on the cliffs rather than in trees, and has a different coloration in order to better reflect its environment.

Colder climate also means no rice/rizjo. Any other foods that might work?

Quote
- Obviously, lots of mists & clouds.
I'm imagining a climate much like the one I grew up in. Marine layer forms above the sea in early morning, strong winds blow it inland. This requires a non-humid climate in order to allow for temperature inversions, and generally fast temperature changes. The only problem I see is that, based on my (minimal) knowledge of Nybelmar, it's a relatively humid environment. Of course, I had also been told it was tropical, so who knows?

Quote
- I have a suggestion: I want to avoid the "mysterious, solemn elves/elven realm shrouded in mists" cliche as much as possible. Plus, fog 24/7 must be rather depressing :P So I propose this: For two months every year,  the mists enveloping their realm clear up; the clouds part to let shafts of sunshine light up the land and the fleeting shadows/fog retreat into their crevices. This opens up a lot of festival/myth options as well for that time of the year. Also ties in well with my other proposals concerning the Gondolwain (see above).

(NB: The Gondolith mainland is covered in mists for 2 months every year. Maybe the two periods could be synchronised - the two months during which the Gondolith experience mists/fog are the only two months during which the mists over the Cloud Elf realm clears. Reinforces the "two different faces of the ocean" idea - whilst Gondolwain and Cloud Elves are both very connected to the sea/sky, their personalities are almost diametrically opposite: extroverts, individualists, vivacious (Gondolwen) vs reclusive, communal, solemn(?) (Cloud Elves)

I'm slightly confused at what you're trying to explain here. You say you don't want mysterious, solemn elves, and then you mention that their personalities could be diametrically opposite to the Gondolwen, which would make the reclusive (reclusive generally makes one mysterious) and solemn! I will say that I prefer the elves to be reclusive because it not only fits better with general elven nature, but seems to fit a tribe of elves who separated with their own elven brethren, and who seek to live peacefully.

I suppose what I had in mind was a little different. I didn't envision their environment to have mist and fog 24/7, but rather for such mists and fog to come in and out with some spontaneity. Most mornings would perhaps be covered with mist and fog, but mist and fog generally clear by mid-day, burned off by the sun (at least, from my experience). Perhaps sometime more drift in, and sometimes not. I'm not sure when you were planning this 2 month break. Some time in winter? (fog/mists were always heavier in summer where I lived).



Quote
4. With whom do they trade? What do they trade?
- From whom would they get materials for they clothing?
Quote
- coughs & surreptitiously slips a small note http://www.santharia.com/tribes/humans/gondolwenmith.htm (http://)-

The issue I have is I'm not sure how you're thinking of "cotton." In Santharia, cotton=toccon, and is grown from a tree, which would not grow in a delta. Are you proposing the traditional Terran cotton plant? This tends to grow in warm, humid environments, but again, not in deltas. They grow in fields on piedmonts, generally. (My family lives in North Carolina/South Carolina, and there's a lot of cotton-growing 'round these here parts.) Deltas might be a little too watery.

I'm also not sure if cotton would be the best material or not. After all, cotton can get kind of heavy when wet.

Kayr are really tall. I would be a little unwilling to make them taller just because that would kind of be huge. 2.3 peds is really tall anyway. I mean, that's the height of the tallest basketball players. I like the idea of them being taller, but perhaps we might say that they're the same size at Kayr, and not taller?



Quote
Also, do you want to write this entry yourself or would you like co-author it with me? I need an express answer on this point so that I can adjust my timetable accordingly.

With large projects like the Ximax entries, I like a lot of voices and a lot of feedback, even if it makes the process a little slower. On these sorts of entries, I don't think as many voices are generally needed, because there are fewer opinions going in to it. I don't mind working with others, but I would prefer extremely fast turn-arounds--as you say, I work faster than most other people. I would want you to work just as fast as me. Because I know how busy you are and your mentioning of adjusting timetables and whatnot, I'm tempted to say "I can do it alone." However, I like your writing style, and of course I enjoy working with you. If you can keep up with me, I certainly don't mind having a co-writer.


Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 19 January 2010, 02:28:47
Quote
This set-up looks extremely familiar. Perhaps Santharian discussion techniques are rubbing off on Nybelmarians?

Well, I did say (see here (http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14173.msg177407.html#msg177407)):

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We could adopt that approach as "best practice" and use it in Nybelmar discussions. Phenomenal project-management there - I mean the speed with which these Ximax entries are progressing is astonishing!

;)

Haven't read the rest of your comments yet. 10 more pages on these company accounts stuff and I can comment again  :grin: (Though, I have to warn you, the quality of my posts tonight may be low. I have read about 190 pages - most of it legislation - since 6 am this morning, so my eyes are a bit tired.)


Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alŭr) on 19 January 2010, 02:34:45
I'm glad you like my discussion structuring.  :heart:

 :hug: That's a lot of legislation! I may be a little off and on today. I've had two get-togethers/parties this weekend, and now I must make up for all the lost work. I will try to peek in now and then, though, to add my two sans.


Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 19 January 2010, 03:53:19
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I like the idea of floating hills, though I suppose it would be therefore difficult to live on these hills. Cloud elves do not have wings, and I would rather not give them the kind of magic that allows them to float and fly around, because then it gets to be a little silly, as I see it, and doesn't reflect the elven uses of magic. There would therefore need to be some other way to get to these floating hills. I don't have any ideas right off the top of my head. I mean, the ferlawyng would be useful, but a child isn't born with one.

I like the bridges, only it seems a bit too constricting to me. If there were some way to make these bridges temporary, that might work, though it still doesn't solve the issue of danger from falling.

Oh, I agree! I don't want elves floating around like balloons!

Stream-of-consciousness brainstorming:

1. How difficult it is to reach the hills of course depends on how high we have them float! Some could be closer to the ground then others ;)

2. Why are bridges too constricting? Were you thinking of solid, stationary ones? I envisaged the sort flexible rope ones they used on old ships.

3. Any objection to (i) the shifting settlements idea or (ii) Paelrhem having magic influencing the movement of these sky-islands (sky-hills?) ? 

(LOL, just had a rather funny mental image of a Cloud Elf Elder 'parking' a hill conveniently next to a plateau so that others could 'hop on'. Wow, you did mention that they were communal but they seem to have taken public transport to a whole new level!)

4. Falling off? Oh, come on Rayne! :lol: We aren't talking about those one-man-planets a la Little Prince! A hill is quite a large thing - well, at any rate if it is large enough to have settlements, it would definitely be large enough for people to traverse it without falling off one side. Also, aren't pointy ears supposed to be dexterous and have a good balance? :P

Plus they can encircle the base of the hill with fences/ballustrades.

I really like the idea - so we can flex our creative muscles to invent ways to make it feasible!



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4. With whom do they trade? What do they trade?
- From whom would they get materials for they clothing?

1)
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The issue I have is I'm not sure how you're thinking of "cotton." In Santharia, cotton=toccon, and is grown from a tree, which would not grow in a delta. Are you proposing the traditional Terran cotton plant? This tends to grow in warm, humid environments, but again, not in deltas. They grow in fields on piedmonts, generally. (My family lives in North Carolina/South Carolina, and there's a lot of cotton-growing 'round these here parts.) Deltas might be a little too watery.

Cukurova Delta is the largest cotton producing region in Turkey. The climate is very similar to the one I described in the Gondolwain entry. Also, based on Wiki: "Successful cultivation of cotton requires a long frost-free period, plenty of sunshine, and a moderate rainfall, usually from 600 to 1200 mm (24 to 48 inches)." The key apparently is for temperatures not to go above 25 degrees (or near freezing), and rainfall rather than humidity.

2) Re cotton not being suitable: That's a judgement call you need to make :) What alternative do you have in mind? That said, I thought they did not wear a lot of clothing - so would cotton getting heavy when wet be such an issue? Also, why would it get wet? I thought you didn't want a 24/7 mist?

NB: The Gondolwain are one of the major textile producers , not to mention one of the most active merchants, in north nybelmar. So whatever material these Cloud Elves decide to buy - even if it is not cotton - it is very likely that they will procure it from the Gondolwain. After all, the Gondolwain have a few small port-towns just below those cliffs. You can't ask for a more convenient market :P



Re height: ok

Re co-authoring: My schedule is a bit of a nightmare atm, so I cannot make any promises. So please feel free to write up the sections/entry yourself. Maybe I could contribute one or two atmospheric pieces as inspiration strikes- an excerpt from a traveller's diary, a description etc?




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Colder climate also means no rice/rizjo. Any other foods that might work?

Hmm... I would have to research that - I'm not familiar with rice-growing.

Though you raise an interesting point: I think we might not have the same thing in mind regarding 'cold'. I did not have a freezing European climate in mind. Maybe about 3-5 C below that of the Gondolwain - ie just slightly colder than mid-Mediterranean.

Re Nybelmar & humidity: Not all of Nybelmar, generally the south.



Re Ferlawyng: I'll read that entry again and get back to you on this one. Again, we might be picturing things differently.  :dontgetit: I don't understand what the problem is: the ferlawyng wouldn't be living in the cliffs, they would be living in the mountain forests around the "th", as mentioned earlier. And you can alter the flora of those forests to your heart's desire to match the conditions described in the ferlawyng entry.


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8. Climate/weather?

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I'm imagining a climate much like the one I grew up in. Marine layer forms above the sea in early morning, strong winds blow it inland. This requires a non-humid climate in order to allow for temperature inversions, and generally fast temperature changes.

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I didn't envision their environment to have mist and fog 24/7, but rather for such mists and fog to come in and out with some spontaneity. Most mornings would perhaps be covered with mist and fog, but mist and fog generally clear by mid-day, burned off by the sun (at least, from my experience). Perhaps sometime more drift in, and sometimes not. I'm not sure when you were planning this 2 month break. Some time in winter? (fog/mists were always heavier in summer where I lived)
.

Actually, I would prefer this. As I said, I find a 24/7 mist to be a bit depressing. I am definitely an open, expansive spaces, azure seas and clear blue skies boy  :buck:

The only problem (and hence the reason I felt the need to introduce those 2 months) is this: Would only a sporadic mist be enough to give the tribe their name? From what you described, I assume the conditions would be rather similar around that shore. So why would other Nybelmarian nations call this particular tribe Mist Elves and not others? There needs to be something unique to them that goes over and above the norm in that region. Any ideas?

Re Mist/Cloud: Why not keep both? They could call themselves Mist Elves (Paelrhem). "Cloud Elves" could be  what the Gondolwen call them. And since the Gondonwen are very active explorers/traders, most of the people (including Santharians) would have heard of these elves from the Gondolwen. That could explain how the epithet "cloud elves" carried all the way to the Compendium. So in the menu/entry: "Cloud Elves (Paelrhem), aka Mist Elves" or something along those lines.




Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Azhira Styralias on 19 January 2010, 04:05:36
May I offer a word of caution on using the word "Mists" too regularly. The Mists of Osthemangar is referred to as "the Mists" in many entries and discussions. I am not sure if Osthemangar and your Mist/Cloud elves would become a confusion in discussions and development. I have no elves in my area, after all.


Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alŭr) on 19 January 2010, 04:27:48
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Cukurova Delta is the largest cotton producing region in Turkey. The climate is very similar to the one I described in the Gondolwain entry. Also, based on Wiki: "Successful cultivation of cotton requires a long frost-free period, plenty of sunshine, and a moderate rainfall, usually from 600 to 1200 mm (24 to 48 inches)." The key apparently is for temperatures not to go above 25 degrees (or near freezing), and rainfall rather than humidity.
Are we going with a traditional notion of "cotton," then? I mean, one of the wonderful things about Santharia is that you don't necessarily need to have the climate and whatnot perfect, because Terran terms can be Santharianized in a variety of ways. Just look at the concept of Santharian "silk." Instead of coming from a silk worm, it instead grows on trees! I suppose my ear question might be, are we going with the traditional notion of "cotton" here as a small plant grown in fields. This is perhaps more related to the Gondolwain entry than this one, but it might be something to consider!

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2) Re cotton not being suitable: That's a judgement call you need to make :) What alternative do you have in mind? That said, I thought they did not wear a lot of clothing - so would cotton getting heavy when wet be such an issue? Also, why would it get wet? I thought you didn't want a 24/7 mist?
Mists don't necessarily make you wet. I suppose I meant more in terms of the elves's lifestyle. After all, they're fishing and diving quite a bit, and as I would like to avoid them being ship-builders and whatnot (since they are not, after all, Sanhorrhim elves), a lot of their time may be spent in the water. They need a material that wouldn't soak up water too easily. Maybe leather or something like leather? Perhaps there might be some sort of sea creature with a relatively short lifespan, and every year or two their dead bodies wash up on the short and their hide may be used for clothing. Or there could perhaps be a resilient kind of bush that, like the Silkel tree, sheds its bark in thin strands that, woven together, produce a strong, resilient, and un-absorbant material? Or we might borrow the traditional notion of silk, and say that there is some spider that weaves webs and egg sacks on the cliffs, and that once the web is abandoned or the egg sacks have hatched, the elves can collect this and weave it into cloth. What do you think?

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NB: The Gondolwain are one of the major textile producers , not to mention one of the most active merchants, in north nybelmar. So whatever material these Cloud Elves decide to buy - even if it is not cotton - it is very likely that they will procure it from the Gondolwain. After all, the Gondolwain have a few small port-towns just below those cliffs. You can't ask for a more convenient market :P
Elves, in general, aren't big traders. I think there's traditionally been an inclination to keep elves a little more reserved and secluded than they currently are on the RPG board. While I don't mind trading with the Gondolwain, I would like to keep most trading to a minimum, if possible.



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Re co-authoring: My schedule is a bit of a nightmare atm, so I cannot make any promises. So please feel free to write up the sections/entry yourself. Maybe I could contribute one or two atmospheric pieces as inspiration strikes- an excerpt from a traveller's diary, a description etc?
This seems more suited to a Place entry than a Tribe entry. Perhaps that might be a project for the future?



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Hmm... I would have to research that - I'm not familiar with rice-growing.
Rice generally prefers humid, watery environments. I remember when I lived in Japan taking the train through fields and fields of rice: they were easily identifiable, being plots filled with water. You may have images, as I do, of Chinese men and women with their pants rolled up planting rice in the mud. They require warm temperatures (hence their growth in Southern China and Japan) and humid weather.

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Though you raise an interesting point: I think we might not have the same thing in mind regarding 'cold'. I did not have a freezing European climate in mind. Maybe about 3-5 C below that of the Gondolwain - ie just slightly colder than mid-Mediterranean.
This is where the location differences get us! I have never visited Europe in the winter. I can only relate with my own various winter experiences. In Northern California/Bay Area, it can get chilly, but it never snows. There is little to no humidity, so even in the summer, the nights get relatively cold. I think the faster temperature changes are what causes the marine layer. Does this sound like the climate we have in mind? (Again, this would be good to make note of, not only for this entry, but for a place entry!)




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Re Ferlawyng: I'll read that entry again and get back to you on this one. Again, we might be picturing things differently.  :dontgetit: I don't understand what the problem is: the ferlawyng wouldn't be living in the cliffs, they would be living in the mountain forests around the "th", as mentioned earlier. And you can alter the flora of those forests to your heart's desire to match the conditions described in the ferlawyng entry.
Once a Mist elf makes her connection to a ferlawyng, where does the ferlawyng live? The elves live on the cliffs; the ferlawyng lives in the forest. Something doesn't add up! And of course, the ferlawyng would probably have a color to reflect its environment more. I'm picturing silvery, silvery-blue, silvery-green, white, gray-white, pale blue, seafoam green, etc.


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Actually, I would prefer this. As I said, I find a 24/7 mist to be a bit depressing. I am definitely an open, expansive spaces, azure seas and clear blue skies boy  :buck:
:heart: There is certainly that in a California-esque climate.

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The only problem (and hence the reason I felt the need to introduce those 2 months) is this: Would only a sporadic mist be enough to give the tribe their name? From what you described, I assume the conditions would be rather similar around that shore. So why would other Nybelmarian nations call this particular tribe Mist Elves and not others? There needs to be something unique to them that goes over and above the norm in that region. Any ideas?
When I saw "sporadic," I mean it comes at unusually or incalculable intervals. Like I mention, there would probably be mists most mornings (Ah! Alliteration!), but it would burn off during the day. Occasionally in the evening it might roll in. We're talking about 20-40% of mist/fog during the daylight hours, concentrated during the mornings. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to see the sunrise. Especially at high altitudes (if we can make the floating island thing work), there would definitely be a sunrise visible.

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Re Mist/Cloud: Why not keep both? They could call themselves Mist Elves (Paelrhem). "Cloud Elves" could be  what the Gondolwen call them. And since the Gondonwen are very active explorers/traders, most of the people (including Santharians) would have heard of these elves from the Gondolwen. That could explain how the epithet "cloud elves" carried all the way to the Compendium. So in the menu/entry: "Cloud Elves (Paelrhem), aka Mist Elves" or something along those lines.
Probably best to have "Mist Elves (Paelrhem), aka Cloud Elves." After all, Paelrhem literally means Mist Tribe.


Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 19 January 2010, 04:33:50
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They need a material that wouldn't soak up water too easily.

I quote the Gondolwain entry:

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The four masts of Gondolwain industry are: textiles, porcelain, furniture and smith-work. Their trade network is so vast and their fame so great that there are few merchants across the Disk who have not heard of Gondolith fabric. Whether by magic or skill or some other invention of the mind the Compendium cannot say, but the Gondolwain can spin cotton so finely that over the seas it has come to be known as “the new spilk”, “Gondolspilk” or simply “Gonsilk”. In a world terrorised by rough, uncomfortable clothing prone to inducing redness, itching and all forms of other distasteful tactile experiences, Gondolwain cotton offers a more affordable alternative to the discerning customer, undercutting the silk and spilk producing nations. It has three qualities to commend itself: It is miraculously soft, airy and lends itself to tailoring as water into the sea.

Most Gondolwenmith clothing is blessed with Krean Magic to shield the wearer from unpleasant weather conditions, as well as the consequences of overzealous sweat-glands. Nonetheless, such fabric is difficult to come by outside Nybelmar, and a wealthy Avennorian merchant, a Veior or a Jorn for instance, would be lucky to sport one or two such items in his wardrobe. These arcane-spun fabrics preserve the wearer’s body temperature, a quality which has spawned the saying “cool as Gonsilk”. In addition, the fabric keeps itself dry by causing water to evaporate upon contact – making enchanted Gonsilk a sterling choice for seafaring episodes, given that the only plausible natural substitute, the lightweight watertight hide of the Ráhaz-estár snake procured by the Shendar, is very rare and not available on the market.

None other than Gondolith weavers know quite why or whether it is a side-effect of this enchantment but Gonsilk does not easily catch fire. In fact, one way to test whether cotton fabric bears genuine Gondolwain enchantment is to throw it into an open fire: If it does, the springing flames will lick the cloth without igniting it and as the temperature increases strange runes will emerge and begin to glow, as if they are draining the heat. This glow gradually intensifies until a point of saturation is reached – as if the cloth has become “soaked” with fire – after which the runic structure will suddenly fall apart like earthenware shattering upon hitting the ground and the fabric will burst into flames shortly thereafter. Ergo, given the probability of the claimed Gondolsilk being devoid of any enchantment and thus ruining what is otherwise perfectly decent fabric, this is a useful but potentially expensive experiment – so it is best reserved for verifying the claims of overweening merchants before one consummates the purchase.

Finally, to prevent Gondolwenith sailors suffering heat strokes in the hot summer months – especially given their prolonged exposure to the elements and sunlight bouncing off the waves – charmed Gondolspilk reflects sunrays falling upon it. Elves might always have light on their faces, but so do the Gondolwain – on their clothes. This gives the white-washed settlements of the Gondolwain a luminous quality at firstflame and sunset, which sparks into radiant sparkles around sunblaze, now flashing on, now flashing off, the streets bustling with merchants and craftsmen and sailors and all the dramatis personae of a thriving economy, all aglow and all afire.

The cotton grown and spun in the Vaenar Delta thus gives the soldiers and workmen of Gondol an advantage over their counterparts in other nations in battling the hot climate of Nybelmar – and their harder work reaps its own reward in the form of opulence, world-dominance, and a lot of shiny objects."



Re cotton: I don't have any plans yet regarding the plant. I am sure something suitably fantastic can be invented should we ever need to write the herbarium entry. I just want the finished product to look like cotton. I could have of course called it something else - but as you know I am rather adamantly against inventing new names for things which resemble their terran counterparts

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There is certainly that in a California-esque climate
Across the Atlantic, we call it "Mediterranean"  :buck:

Re rice: Yeah, this won't work then. Or you could invent rice that doesn't need humidity  :azn:

Re climate: Sounds fine. Btw, the felt temperature is always more extreme when it's humid (so a humid summer feels a lot hotter, and a humid cold feels a lot chillier)

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Once a Mist elf makes her connection to a ferlawyng, where does the ferlawyng live? The elves live on the cliffs; the ferlawyng lives in the forest


Well, do they have to live one another? How about a live-let-live attitude? They could visit each other from time to time. Is it really very cloudly to cling on to things? :P Also I thought the ferlawyng were meant to be reclusive - do they live among the Cloud Elves? Well, it's your entry, so I leave the choice to you. If you feel you need to amend the ferlawyng, you have my blessing.  :rolleyes: Alternatively you could of course remove this bonding idea.


Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Rayne (Alŭr) on 24 January 2010, 09:49:40
Upon Request.


Addition to People section:
This deep connection with the Dream manifests in a natural connections to the mists and clouds. Almost from birth, these elves have the ability to turn their bodies into vapours, floating through the air like clouds. These aspects are often called cloud-forms by the Gondolwain who share their coast, though the elves themselves call them sky forms, or ŭphero’naíl. These forms allow them to ascend to their homes in floating cliffs near the coast, and to descend to the sea to fish and trade.

While all elflings are born with the ability to morph into their cloud form, they can only maintain it for a minute or two. As a Paélrhem lengthens in years, so the time they can maintain the form lengthens. At the end of a Paélrhem’s life, which may vary from 400 to 500 years of age, she will assume her cloud-form for the last time and ascend into the sky, dissipating into the air, leaving no trace left. She merges with the essence of the Dream.

Questions:
-How does this effect clothing? o.O Naked elves? Or perhaps they have some sort of magic?

Coren: Done. MSN discussion: gossamer clothing woven from the threads of the silkel tree. Floats up with them when CE assume their cloud-form.


Housing/Territory Changes:
-Making homes in floating cliffs


Resources/Trade:
-Some trade with the Aelónrhim
-Limited trade with the Gondolwenmith


Regarding the Ferlawyng: development doesn't seem to be taking these elves into a bond with these creatures. Perhaps we should scrap the idea of them developing said bond?

Coren: I think you may be right - let's discuss this on MSN :)


Title: Re: Cloud Elves Discussion
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 31 January 2010, 02:30:25
Updated the main post:

- Summarised what's been agreed on in relation to the Discussion Questions
- Updated the list of 'Next Steps'