Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => People of the World of Caelereth => Topic started by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 04 May 2013, 05:58:53

Title: Stormcloaks (Amabella's Project)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 04 May 2013, 05:58:53
I'm continuing the discussion which was started in Amabella's welcome thread here (,15464.msg197755.html#msg197755)

I'm afraid it will take some time till I can do Barsalon, but just imagine it as such a hub already. Look here (,3780.msg142327.html#msg142327) what I have written and planned years ago.. the Wastes are right above Barsalon.

To the problem you addressed (and I was not aware of) 'The Kanapans are very controlling and restrictive about "foreign" southern trade with the north,' - maybe you could solve the problem with introducing a totally new port, with all the conflicts it provides.

If you look at this map:

you see, that the 'Strait of Isthrius' might not belong to any tribe (or to both, or they fighting about it, don't think so though), but it seems to be the border between the Kanapan and Kuglimz lands. They could have a major port somewhere near the coast or even in the  Chapel Fjord.
However, there is a submission started about the Dark Gnomes, which you should take into consideration also (not on site, so you may be able to make a deal)
Dark Gnomes (,13279.0.html)

What about Aldridge Falls? It is not mentioned in the Dark Gnomes submission, strange.

Well, I thought a trade route around the Vindel mountains might be possible, but it is up to you. :D
I just wanted to mention, that you may well invent something new, as long as the old stuff is preserved somehow.

 To your thoughts about the Stormcloaks:
Sounds very good - I do not know the difference between the Hanseatic than Florentine organizational guild structure though ;). At least this way 'guild' makes more sense and it seems very reasonable, that it changed from a family business to a guild-system. (Though in Santharia this would be possible also ;) ) You seem to be very knowledgeable in this respect and I trust you that it will make sense :)

Just keep in mind - be gentle with the written stuff, with what is already on the site. Somebody put a lot of thought in it long ago. Don't change something because you like to change it, but because it is so much better than the old ideas. :)

Title: Re: Stormcloaks (Amabella's Project)
Post by: Amabella Catston on 05 May 2013, 07:33:33
Thank you for your tremendous insight  :grin:

As far as...
the difference between the Hanseatic than Florentine organizational guild structure

I would be more than happy to explain.  :) 

I would say that the most critical difference, for Santharian purposes, is that while most guilds (like the Florence guilds) focused on controlling the local trade or production in a single city or town, the Hanseatic league was interested in protecting long-range international trade across multiple cities. The Hanseatic league focused on shipping a variety of items (grain, timber, wine, wax, metals, cloth, etc.) over large distances, just like the Stormcloaks. Therefore, when I do my research further, I will be using the Hanseatic league as my core model in order to be consistent with the existing Stormcloak organizational structure.  ;)

My primary objective is to preserve the organizational structure of the Stormcloaks exactly as it was written, and only  to expand it in more detail by describing each Stormcloak port individually. I am starting out by identifying imports and exports, as well as tracing the production of goods from their raw materials to the finished products. Ideally, once all of the trade routes are defined, maybe I would have a map with arrows on it showing the flow of trade goods which the Stormcloaks handle.  :read:

So far, the export that I am having the most difficulty understanding is the "black market magic" from Carmalad. Sadly, the best explanation I can come up with is that these are actually reagents? Given that magic seemed to be defined in Caelereth as a characteristic rather than as a physical item, I couldn’t figure out how it was exported. I also could not figure out where it came from, since the Caltharians were described as not having an affinity nor interest in magic. Any insight is appreciated. :veryconfused:

a trade route around the Vindel mountains might be possible

I think this is what I was hoping for...A route that goes past the Vindel mountains. Basically I want the Stormcloaks to have no other choice but to get their northern goods somehow from Barsalon, despite it being so far inland. After reading what you have written for Barsalon, I made up a possible explanation below, but I do not know how feasible it is:  :rolleyes:

After the Kanapan trade route was officially established in 1325, Stormcloaks were no longer allowed to explore around the Northern Sarvonian area as freely as they had done in the century before. The Kanapan Cahm tribe insisted that all Stormcloak goods coming from the north must be shipped exclusively through the Stormcloak port at Kurstir, and subject to the high taxes it entails.

The Kanapans always insisted that this high tax was a necessity, due in part to most of their imported goods from other tribes coming from the major trading hub of Barsalon. Barsalon merchants would travel south over land, past the Vindel mountains, before traveling down the Rhone river in the shallow bottomed barges made by the Kanapan Beireo tribe. The Barsalon merchants always demanded "insurance money" due to the thieves in the dangerous city and the perils the merchants faced while transporting their precious wares. However, there was hardly a Barsalon merchant who wasn't suspected of being shady in their own right…

The Stormcloaks attempted to establish a northern port in Saeroth. However the Kanapans intervened and usually intercepted the ships, which rarely made it past Carbrand. Thus the only official port the Stormcloaks were able to establish in the north since 1325 was on the separate continent of Cyhalloi in 1428. The Stormcloaks have been extremely secretive about any excursions in the north past this point.


Title: Re: Stormcloaks (Amabella's Project)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 05 May 2013, 08:13:49
Thanks for the explanation! :)

So far, the export that I am having the most difficulty understanding is the "black market magic" from Carmalad.

Where do you have this from? Sounds like an old piece which was written before any magic was developed. No idea what could be the meaning without more text around it.

I have no problems with what you have written in italics I wonder though, why the Stormcloaks do not try to get access to the North through Kuglimz land (Druids Gathering/Livery Loam). You could of course make up any perils which wait for them on this path. don't forget, you have over thousand years of history, a lot could happen!

Title: Re: Stormcloaks (Amabella's Project)
Post by: Amabella Catston on 06 May 2013, 02:39:41
I am perfectly fine with Druids Gathering or Livery Loam being "unowned" ports which Stormcloaks get resources from. I would like to document the traffic of goods shipped by the Stormcloaks from both the ports with exclusive areas and also from the trading ports/hubs where the Stormcloaks have no ownership. :)

Judging by the history, I would imagine that all Stormcloak trading areas started out as the "completely unowned" type for the first several years (except at Quios and Veltin), until and unless the guild was effectively able to negotiate a deal with the local authorities to have an area of their own. (Provided that it was profitable enough to want to do this - I imagine that maintaining an independent guarded port area would be quite expensive). :D

I'm thinking that the Stormcloaks would need a pretty strong motivation to proceed to Barsalon, especially if it is very far inland and it is a dangerous city. Yet if there are specific northern trade items that are available in Barsalon but more difficult to get anywhere else (especially if they are valuable) then the Stormcloaks might definitely risk it.

  • For example, the Stormcloaks could stop at Livery Loam and Druids Gathering, but neither of these two towns possess the textiles/furs they want. So the Stormcloaks now have the motivation to go on a trade route to Barsalon from there (perhaps one between the Imlith and Vindel mountains), because all of the really skilled weavers are selling their best goods there…;)
  • Another example -  the Remusian Gryffon stops at Carbrand, but maybe the Kanapans forbid the Stormcloaks from trading with Carbrand directly. The Stormcloaks must either make the long journey to Barsalon or pay a high tax to get the goods delivered to Kurstir. The Stormcloaks go to Barsalon to avoid the tax, first docking at Livery Loam and then proceeding from there…
  • Third example - Barsalon is the only practical location to get rare Antislar goods...(then these specific goods would be listed)

So basically as long as I know which specific goods are coming from Druids Gathering/Livery Loam and which ones are coming from Barsalon, I'm fine with the Stormcloaks going to both places. I will add them to my list of imports and exports as they are suggested. :)

I found the "black market magic" under the Carmalad city entry, highlighted in yellow:

Trade.The Carmaladian cloth dyers produce so much multi-coloured material that it has tremendous excess, and therefore must find takers in other parts of Caelereth. In this way, cloth has become a huge export for the city. The Carmaladians have found many trade destinations overland, but their main partner is the Isles of Quios. Boats take loads of cloth and black market magic to them, east over the Adanian Sea to the large and secretive Port of Gillwin, where boats from abroad are brought, and trade routes both begin and end here. Carmaladian men don’t know who ends up with their cloth, but with the price they’re paid, they aren’t asking any questions.

Title: Re: Stormcloaks (Amabella's Project)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 06 May 2013, 04:27:33
Hey Amabella, you are really busy :)

Well, that's up to you, how far the Stormcloaks will go. There is nothing developed. I could imagine though, that Barsalon itself has/had 'forces', a guild, a strong business man, whatever which oversees the trade to the different regions. (The North, the South and East) But as I said above - that may change several times in history. The Stormcloaks may want to go themselves up until Barsalon and at another time decide to stay to port towns. You could establish an new town also.

As soon as i have a little more time, I will think what goods Barsalon could trade apart from the things the Remusians bring to the town.

That 'black market magic' - don't worry and just forget it, it is not important. Maybe Ralhag has meant 'magic items ' Macantis sell which are not really working and therefor forbidden by Ximax? No idea ;)  As magic is allowed nowadays, I don't really know, what he could have meant, which kind of magic needs to be sold on a black market.

'waves goodbye'

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