Santharian Development

Organization and General Discussions => Newbie Information, Joining Requests and Recruitment => Topic started by: Burton Sable on 23 December 2014, 20:01:19

Title: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Burton Sable on 23 December 2014, 20:01:19
Hello people.
I'm Darien.
This is my alt for the development.
I had some problems creating a account.
I found this old account.
I've got some ideas for the Santharian "Underworld"
about criminals and stuff…..
Would you guys like it if i submitted some entries?
I think the Underworld is a nice new avenue to explore.
I'd centre it around Voldar or one of the other santharian metropolises.
In truth i allready got some stuff written.
It all started as part of my CD.
I needed to create a SETTING for my Darien character.
Now i've created this dark world of drug dealers, rogue mages, prostitution all with a santharian touch.
I've greatly improved my story-telling abilities.
I've never really quitted writing.
Instead i've been focussing on applying varying story-techniques.
Story structuring, plotting, using plot devices and adding layers of character depth.
I'm pretty passionate about writing some of these entries.
So far my idea are to create:

-A dungeon (with cool backstory)
-A group of 1 or more Sub-cultures existing inside one or more metropolises (organized crime and how it involves and evolves itself): outlaws/ rogues
- A drugs along with roots, origin  and historical impact.
-I've written a contrast of thresholds to darkness (which i use for dynamic characters) [but it could also be as policy for rogue and dark magic in the academy of ximax.

These things and more i've got for my CD to use as subtext.
I could contribute it to the site if you guys like the idea.

Greets Darien

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 December 2014, 16:33:03
Hello there and welcome back, Darien!

Well,first of all you should perhaps decide which name you want to use here on the Dev board, Diagondus Hirondus  or Darien. You can change your display name in your settings for example if you want. So you might try that.

Second, development help is always appreciated, and more "Underworld" stuff would be fine. Actually there's already an entry on site in this regard, entitled Thieves Underground (, which deals with that sort of thing. Don't know if you're read that one already. At any rate, take a look at that to see what we already have, so that you can expand from there maybe.

A dungeon with a cool backstory for example would definitely be interesting for example, or a group focusing on a specific type of crime would be a nice ideas as well. As for the other thing you mention ("contrast of thresholds to darkness") I have to admit I have no clue what you're referring to here exactly, so maybe you could explain that a bit more.

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Burton Sable on 24 December 2014, 19:08:02

I'm aware of the "thieves underground".
But it's a very global entry.
Its like an overview entry.
My focus is much deeper.
I would focus on different types of criminality.
They would be more like sub-entries.
Or they're specific entries for one city.
I want to create some aspects of "DARK FANTASY".
I want to create the human side that focusses on the darker aspects of human life.
A gothic theme.

The thieves underground just creates 1 layer.
I work in layering.
I would slowly make the reader descent into the depths of "true crime".
There used to be an outdated entry on the site that could explain my idea for a bit.
It was thugs, henchmen, patsies and a kingpin in charge of some illegal beer brewing.
I've been working on creating something similar, however with a more changing and organic structure.
The head of the snake might be cut off, but it will create a void of power to be taken by the next.
Underground fighting, prostitution, dealings with the black market….
I think the causes of criminality or natural events that will happen wherever there is high levels of anarchy and unfair wealth distribution.
A graven that falls from his position and loses his inheritance (his castle, or whatever), He might become a fine kingpin.
An orphan dropped on the streets without parents, he makes a fine thief.
When war rages the country, or some other calamity, it will create hard times for everyone; which will challenge the law-system. It will create anarchy and challenge peoples survival.
There will be many orphans and many bitter graven's when anarchy starts.

Thieves guilds and assassins guilds.
They are so mysterious….
How does it work?
Every organization develops differently…
It's all linked to what measures they have to take in order to survive.


And the thresholds to darkness….

It describes 10 levels.

I made it up for character creation.

It basically describes someone who hears a "Dark calling".

Every level describes him losing more sanity.

You could compare the process as a combination between "alienation"  and "power abuse".

Level 1 is outstanding citizen. No conflict.

Level 5 is "Inner darkness". subject is conflicted. Has a darkness inside of him. Subject might develop forms of insanity trying to isolate the evil from his personality.

Level 10 is pure evil. Subject lost all connection with society. No longer has moral boundaries.

"Each threshold"  is basically a crime of isolation.
If you commit a small crime, you will start telling yourself lies.
If you committed multiple murders you might be ' emotionally numbing'  yourself.
Might and exploitment of weaker people as yourself is a natural result of power.
Who has more power then him who wields magic?
Why would ximax not develop some sort of policy from preventing the wrong people to gain such power?


Well, something like that was my idea with the thresholds.
I always think about that LICHE entry.
Ximax would use this policy to prevent mages from going on that path.

Well it could be fun to explore the idea a bit.
If i did not write it well enough, i would be happy to have been a inspiration to someone who can do better.

You know artimidor.
Shortly after i submitted my Liche idea. (some years ago)
I failed to write it.
I just had this idea.
Eventually some time later, you felt the calling to actually make the thing.
It turned out well…
I also started a slimer entry.
I remember Talia disagreeing about the liche concept.
She did not want more vampires she said.
A liche is soo different from a vampire.

I can just give it a shot, to entertain you guys.
Submit something.
I learned a lot.
I should test my writing skills for an audience.
I'm sometimes a bit of a sloth.
But I work hard whenever I am passionate.
I think good ideas are in how it's conveyed.
I might not get the image of my vision towards you guys.
But i've found some new techniques to eventually try.
Maybe i will get more motivation if i actually succeed in a first entry.

I should start small.
If i created a dungeon for my first entry, would that be small enough?
Or maybe a persons entry….about a corrupt noble/ kingpin.
My entries have little historical impact.
They are just used to describe a dark setting.
Like the "THIEF" games. Convey a mood.
Make a santharian "SCARFACE".
How about the avenue of santharian "special forces" to take them down.
How about Ximax-hunters to dispatch misuse of black magic.
How about a detectives employed by the order of the fallen or white knights to locate the roots of crime.
How about Seyella mind-soothers as opposition of drug dealing.
I'm just brainstorming now…
But well… we're in medieval and detectives who might somehow 'track DNA' (magic) or something more santharia themed. It's a fun to explore.
Anyways i'm rambling….

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 December 2014, 19:43:17
Well, lots of interesting ideas there, Diagondus/Darien...

And I agree: Start small, get a first contribution under your belt, and go from there, that's always important. A first step starts a journey. :)

It probably would be easiest to start, say, with a People entry for example, simply because there's a framework on how such entries should look like, there are lots of examples on site. So for starters doing something in the mould of similar stuff helps a good deal and you learn the ropes that way.

A dungeon on the other hand hasn't been done as of yet, even though it might turn out as a Places entry. But it's definitely more complex and requires more thought on how to structure it etc.

So one after the other I would recommend. Get started with a concrete idea that works along the line of what we have, get your feet wet and then move on to bigger things that refer to your other work and build from there...  :cool:

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Burton Sable on 25 December 2014, 01:20:30
thanks, artimdor

I'll submit something soon.

I am creating my CD on the RPG board first.
It's my priority to finish Darién.
I've gotten into a little bump with layering.
Trying to overlap story lines but putting them into the same scenes.
Create a powerful short story.
The more powerful you make a story, the more research you have to do.
I've created this huge back story to understand the motives, goals, psychology of all 35 characters.
I've got 1 dungeon. and multiple organizations, a few settings.

And it's only act 1.
I want the story compressed to a format that it reads very fast.
I want it to be professional.

Do you personally use a lot of tools for writing Artimidor?
Besides formatting structure, do you also use pot devices?
You heard of the hero journey from vogler?

These kinds of things are at the core of every story.

And I'm writing for emotional impact.
It's cool.

English isn't my first language, i have to re-translate all my work.
But santharia provides an audience and a good learning ground.

What I'm doing is...
Creating a realistic story.
With real people.
And flesh them about with little fantasy props in the setting and the dialogue.
It's a endless avenues to explore. So structure is key.

And i wish i had time-management.

You know i've been working and gathering and researching techniques for ages now.
It all started with my Darién character.
And now i will put it to the test again.
I started small and it got bigger.
And it got bigger.
And now it has to become smaller again.
You understand what i mean?
 :grin: :buck:

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 December 2014, 16:10:08
As for writing tips: Personally I always have to warn from too ambitious projects. In short: You cannot expect to be successful at writing a novel if you haven't done a short story. You cannot explore dozens of characters at the same time if you haven't gone through the process of handling one or two throughout a whole story. At least that's my take on it. Same with Compendium entries. You need to make experiences first before you can tackle something bigger.

Personally I need an overall plan for the whole thing I'm writing, then do chapter by chapter, defining the key points first and move from one point to the other. I also constantly revise the stuff I'm writing, for one to get into a text again after a break, and secondly because you need distance to a text to understand its faults and fix them. Stephen King wrote whole novels and shelved them to get back to them after a year or so, aware that the first drafts won't hold up. So yeah, small steps for aspiring authors, that's what I recommend... ;)

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Ryldor Gadriel on 30 December 2014, 16:49:34

So if someone wanted to rewrite the Thieves Underground entry to make it broader and more encompassing, would that interest you? It would be a more comprehensive overview of different types of rogues and guilds, with a few examples of each.

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Burton Sable on 30 December 2014, 19:56:58

Yes i agree.
I think i should try and gain some experience.
(i got lot's of theoretical knowledge about writing, but i lack making real stories, i should try and bring it in practice more)


The thieves underground is just a acknowledgement of "a shady side" toward society.
I think the entry in itself is well-written, it doesn't need revisions or expansions (yet).

I could write "global organizations"... like smugglers, pirates, dealers, kingpins (and so on...); to give a taste or explanation on how they operate.

I could write "a people entry"... On a specific guild or group that existed in year XXX and caused XXX trouble...
I'd not generalize but be specific about.
I could write a kingpin (crime king) that was captured and interrogated. That describes the inner workings of his smuggling and his cartel.

I think the "global organizations" is something that would have to be able to apple to every city and town and santharia, and is thus a master-work. It affects everything so it would have to be done right.
The "people entry" might suit better, since crime is something that spawns from certain factors and is difficult to generalize.

Smugglers for example.
The ways in which smugglers operate depends on the danger they have to overcome.
Smugglers in Ximax might be very different from smugglers in Voldar.
I mean Ximax would probably smuggle illegal reagents, knowledge, power and forbidden magic.
How would you fool a mage? Mages might have some tricks to expose smugglers. It needs some very extraordinary individuals to smuggle stuff. And the smugglers might be linked to organizations such as necromancers and visionaries. Would they smuggle stuff inside Ximax or get stuff out? Ximax has a lot of valueables. Would there be organizations interested in kidnapping mages to their bidding? Or people that are not allowed entry who still want to be a mage?
How about "in the name of the wind" (did you read that book?) (patrick rothfuss, go read now!) there is this girl Devi. Devi is a moneylender to students who can not afford the study. She takes samples of blood of her customers. If they betray her then she owns their lives by using blood magic on them, should they ever not pay back. I really like such ideas.
Smugglers in Voldar might use ships to smuggle....
How about a "prostitution ring".
Is there a "cartel"?
When you think about criminality, you think about "human needs".
If the king does not want his streets cluttered with "whores and prostitution" and he does something about it.
The city watch enforces the law.
But there are still man who want to fuck and have fun.
Do they choose to supress their needs, do whatever the king says and go marry a woman and be faithful?
Or will there be men who rebel against that law and create a secret little mans-club exclusive for those people who still have the "need" even tough it's illigal.
A criminal branch is born.
You can think about this in a similar ways about "booze, drugs, knowledge and weapons (....and much more).
Some criminal branches might even directly oppose the laws of their duke/ king.
They might be looking to incite rebellion.

Then there are also the "darker clubs" that prey upon the worst crimes.
They represent the darkest "needs" of human nature.

How about those sick psychos who love to torture someone or rape someone just for fun.
How about the "dark desires".
Are there maybe necromancers and cultists outside of the city.
They might need "organs" of humans for their rituals.

Also there is lawlessness and anarchy.
If you have two rival organizations.
They can not go to the authorities if someone commits a crime towards them.
They have no other choice to enforce their own law.
Take actions to defend or survive.
If they go to the lord of high justice, they will lose their organization and income.
Thus organized crime is born.

My point...

It needs several entries.
It can not fit into the thieves underground entry, it would become too large.
There is just too much information to share.

I will make something and try to expand on it.
I would make people entries of notorious criminals or....
a misc. entry about a "drug" that spread trough.
Or a "place entry" that is directly affected by "dark side of crime".
They all carry a theme and could be linked towards the "thieves underground".
That's the direction i would take.
 :cool: :rolleyes: :grin:

you agree?

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Ryldor Gadriel on 31 December 2014, 02:14:01
To latch onto your layering idea...

Maybe one general page that describes the basics of the underworld. Things like:
What are the types of rogues?
How are they viewed by society at large and by different races in particular?
How do they communicate and interact?
What are guilds? What are the benefits and duties to being a guild member?

This is where I would start.

The next layer would get more detailed, focusing on specific people, places and organizations. I think this is what you're interested in. (And where I personally feel the current 'Thieves Underground' entry belong since it covers only one guild.)


Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Burton Sable on 31 December 2014, 06:45:54
What you say might work, tough i think there are lots of rogues.
There are lots of crimes as well. Every crime has it's own rogues.
This would or could create an endless list of rogue types.
(i don't want to describe them all, i might miss some..., and it's still difficult to create branches if they aren't specific to one territory)

I would write a Underworld entry.
It's where everything that can be good, gets a bad twist.
It's almost like an example of AVA vs COOR.
This is a layer of human's worst aspects tainting society.

Here's a sample.
I think I'd like to categorize the types of rogues by their "vice and exploit".
If i list every type of rogue then the list would get too long.
I'd rather give a brief explanation of criminal structures and maybe provide some job-descriptions.
A thief is a rogue.
A thief steals.
A thief thus belongs to the sin and exploit of "greed".
But a thief can be a robber, a con-artist, a pirate or a burglar.
An organization can spawn from several enterprising thieves that meet and start a business, in which they might need a "fencer" and a "contact in the department of treasury, to plot their missions."
So in order to keep a good overview, we might need to branch the rogues into their respective Vices. When I'm done it will eventually provide a good overview on how to link these organizations together (which is left to the readers imagination).

The Underworld of Santharia


It’s the darker layers of any race; mainly the human, that represent the immoral and wicked side of society.

he Underworld is often made up of unrestrained and widespread activities that are most of the time coordinated by organizational structures.
They openly engage in wrongdoing, sins and shameful acts. They are guilty of actions that are injurious to public welfare.
The underworld is considered to be the embodiment of humanity’s greatest weakness and corruption.

Tough all races in the world of Caelereth have their own form of misconduct and wrongdoing, the human society is the most adaptable and diversified. Human nature centres around power, while elves are more concerned with beauty and creation of life. The dwarves are driven for wealth and orcs for destruction.
The darker aspects of the three races: “elves, dwarves and orcs” often supplement the much larger syndicates and crime structures of humanity.

The darkness of human nature spawned from the shadows of society; have often caused great calamity and catastrophe for their entire race. As crime lords grow in power so grows their ambition. It often starts with mischief that turns into a profit, a profit that becomes a gold-mine; and it attracts more mischief, eventually circling and spiraling out of control until it’s stopped by authorities or rival mischief.

History is filled with records of heinous crime, some of these crimes have caused rebellions and even wars.
(there are a lot of santharian example entries that can be linked towards the underworld)


The appearance of these organizational structures and characteristics of the underworld are those of the vices that surface within a human (or any other race, for that matter).

Prostitution (Exploit of sexual Lust):
Sexual lust is one of the best branches of crime for the underworld. It deals with the intense wish, desire or craving for the body. There are lots of men who take desire in cheating on the spouse and fantasize about that which is out of reach. Often too much lust is considered morally wicked; therefor most societies have strict laws about monogamy.
This is often to avoid the spreading of dangerous diseases, unhappiness and to prevent the “crimes of passion”.
Forms of prostitution are most predominant in the metropolises of santharia. During harsh times of poverty, the body becomes ones biggest asset. Prostitution is a way to survive and is in most societies somewhat tolerated (tough frowned upon). There are gangs and strong men who see these women to be profitable and they’d become the middleman towards bigger circles of customers. Rivalry might attract gangs or even spawn them in order to protect their women (that are considered nothing else but a source of income), and they might even  give them with tattoo’s or scars to ‘brand them’.
Add several job descriptions of this branch here.
Pimp, prostitute, slaver, etc.

Theft (Exploit of riches and Greed):
Theft is considered to be the wrongful taking and carrying away of personal goods or property of another.
 Robbery, theft and trickery all go into the same avenue.
Thief, robber, looter, etc.

-----<more crimes based on their exploit and sins>----

On a side note: I think it's best to categorize the type of crime by the "weakness of the trait"....

I just wrote this as a sample for a more global entry.
I like the idea of categorizing criminality by sins.
If someone were to look for a crime organization....
He'd go by the list.
He thinks, hmmmmm I want to make a evil organization and it's dominant trait is: "lust"
Lust brings forth prostitution and works like this and this.
That's the kind of structure i need.

basically a global entry is also in a way a guide to making more criminality entries.
But writing it is a master project.

@ everyone :

Does anyone like the idea?
Should i try and write it?

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 04 January 2015, 16:54:10
Well, that's a possible approach. (I'd recommend not to use the term "sinful", though, because this is terminology associated with religion.) So you could get to write such a general Underworld entry, Diagondus, and if Ryldor is up for it focus on rewriting the Thieves Underground entry as a sub-entry of that, bringing this part of the Underworld up to date. If that would be fine with both of your, then we could try that. Maybe if Ryldor focuses on the Thieves, you could work on that part of the Underworld entry first, Diagondus, so that you both know what each other plans and Ryldor can also expand from there as well (and also expand from what we already have in the current entry).

P.S. Try to decide which name you use, Diagondus/Darien - this gets confusing...

Title: Re: Darien >> Burton Sable is the new name
Post by: Burton Sable on 04 January 2015, 20:39:52
My new name shall be "Burton Sable"

Which i think is a fitting name for a 'underworld' researcher.

So no more Confusion.
Darién is my 'RPG character'.
Burton Sable is my 'compendium researcher'

@ Artimidor

I think Ryldor was just brainstorming with me.
I don't know if he wants to develop stuff.
I'll just try to create this underworld entry.

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 04 January 2015, 21:28:36
Well, Ryldor wanted to rewrite the Thieves Underground entry as far as I understood. Correct me if I'm wrong, Ryldor!

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Ryldor Gadriel on 05 January 2015, 08:37:45
Basically I only saw the Thieves Underground entry when it was linked earlier in this thread. I was confused about what it wanted to be. Was it supposed to be a general article discussing all thieves with hundreds of members? A super secret guild of sorts with a couple of dozen members? Something in the middle?

So I had the idea to create a much more generic 'Rogues' article covering the basics. Then add on the details, like how different races feel about rogues, and famous thieves/guilds (including the Black Butterfly Rovers and a rewritten The Underground) throughout Santharia.

That was my semi-simple plan.

Edited to add: Originally I did imagine it the other way around with me doing the 'main' page and Burton doing the specifics since he seems to have much more focused ideas, but I'm ok with whatever.

Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Burton Sable on 05 January 2015, 09:41:31
I was currently working on:

How the underworld came to be.
The origins/ evolution

(notice the thieves underground is not not the same as my "underworld"; tough the names are similar)

In this entry i plan on answering some of these thematic questions:

-The frameworks of beginning organizations (listed by the type of crime lord)
Expansion of structural crime and coordinated crime.
There will be 3 levels:
level 1: describes nexus points for the birth of crime lords and coordinated structures.
level 2: describes nexus points for organized crime and specializations of crime.
level 3: describes nexus points for evolutions of crime ( possible avenues of what organized crime could turn into (anarchy, rebellion, the followers of gangs and their migrations) , and the connections with the darker and evil sides of the world like psychopaths, cultists, necromancers, maybe even demons or whatever malicious forces at work)

-How do the roots of crimes intertwine with established laws and moral codes?
-what kind of traits (vices) are responsible for triggering crime inside a society?
-What’s the severity of punishments and the chances of getting caught?

I've got some great sources here to draw from.
It's a bit of a hassle to make it into my own neat structure.


Your 'generic rogues'  might be the same as my 'crime lords'.

Every crime lords gets a description of it's trade and how the basic overlay of the organization works.
Here's some of the stuff i thought up so far:
I'm still expanding on it

Level 1:

Black market Fencer:
A person who has made a business of receiving and disposing of stolen goods.
He’s the central nexus of robbers, art thieves and pirates. If an organization grows larger or cooperates with other fencers, it might spawn forth a black market.

Bootlegger (the dealer):
To make, transport, sell and deal in unlawful goods.
(false trinkets, liquors, potions, drugs and reagents)

Dueling promoter:
A person that encourages, organizes and promotes prearranged combats between two persons or parties in order to obtain a profit from it.

Gang Lord (agent of chaos):
Trough absence or failing of the law enforcement; the gang lord rises. The gang lord becomes a authority of power through the (sworn) obedience he gets from his followers. The gang Lord is a person that does anything for the betterment of him, his family, his goals or his community, even if it means breaking the laws.

Level 2:
Extortionist (shark/ mobster):
Extortion is a natural evolution of structural crime, to exploit the dissipating abiding of the law. 
The inability of using the law makes it possible for opposing parties to wrest money or information from crime lords by use of violence, intimidation, or abuse of authority.

Smuggling lord:
A person that imports or exports (goods) secretly, in violation of the law.
It’s often a service to bring non-lawful goods towards other crime lords (or straight towards the target-crowd).

I intend to expand a bit further on some of these lords. (information on how they operate)
But basically if you add them all together you get syndicates and organized crime, or perhaps even a criminal force that is stronger then the local authorities.

I think the 'rogues' you might want to describe are dark champions, like thieves and assassins and other specializations.
I am more focused on writing the setting they live in.
Where do they meet? How does it all work, behind the scenes?

If you are an assassin.... You might need a little operation to back you up, otherwise certain enemies will kill you.
So i want to know where does a assassin go to find his contacts?
From who does a master-thief learn that the high noble of xxx has a precious diamond buried in his backyard?
Where do pirates dock and sell their stolen goods?
How do hookers protect themselves?
What are the results on society trough crime?
Like drugs....(imagine addicts crawling around the streets like zombies)
Like gang violence... (imagine dead bodies and hacked of limbs floating in the rivers trough town)
Like forceful gang domination ( law authorities might be afraid and the normal people join crime in order to compete with the market, good citizens are sloths, they look the other way...)


I'm trying to create a setting.

If you got ideas or stuff to contribute,
We could work together Ryldor.
I could implement your ideas,
or you could implement mine...


Title: Re: Darien
Post by: Rakvél Tennur on 05 January 2015, 14:17:58
First and foremost, welcome! :grin:
I've been reading this thread for a while now and something just popped in my head, so here's it: For an underworld to exist, there needs to be a definition of laws and authorities to antagonize; so the question is: Do we have a clear set of laws for the regions of Sarvonia? Is it a single book (like a constitution) or is it a bunch of edicts and documents that have no organized structure? How about each region, do they have autonomy and how much of it?

I'm unsure if there's something like this already, but if there's not, perhaps it'd be a good time to get this law system down, so the boundaries are clear and thus the crimes and their punishments are clear too.

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 05 January 2015, 16:44:04
Looks like there are couple of people out there with identity problems... :lol:

As I see that Valko has changed his name to Rakvél Tennur. Just so that everyone knows.

Anyway, I've also changed the thread's title to "Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion", because Darien is now Burton, and well, this thread is mainly about the Underworld. There, order restored - for now... ;)

Concerning the laws thingy Rakvél brought up: Well, yes, this hasn't been developed as of yet. I guess it's not necessarily important to know what punishment you're likely to get if you murder someone in Santharia e.g., but it doesn't hurt to know either. And if there are local differences etc. Would be a major project to do that properly, and it would imply that we know how all the provinces are organized, or at least have a rough idea on that. Ranks and titles vary considerably throughout Santharia (see the entry ( on that), but the basic provincial structure is pretty much the same throughout the kingdom, so there might be mostly consensus in key things regarding policing authorities and laws. But well, exceptions confirm the rule. Such entries about laws (like a Santharian codex) and policing still need to be written... Any volunteers?  :P

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Rakvél Tennur on 05 January 2015, 17:07:52
I indeed changed the name, figured that it'd be better to find my "Compendium Alterego" and a good name would be a good start. :P

That aside, I'd love to work on a Santharian Codex, however this one is a big project and I feel my knowledge regarding Sarvonian politics is limited, so I wouldn't be able to say for example if Slavery is tolerated in some regions or outright banned in the kingdom.

Other than that, I can figure some of the laws that must be within the codex for a kingdom to work, such as an oath of allegiance to the King and the Codex, tributary laws for those holding the lands, laws regarding the rights and obligations of and to the serfs, peasants and slaves, laws regulating the hunt and fishing as well as establishing the limits of the royal hunting grounds and protected lands, laws declaring the guards of the kingdom and their divisions...

Of these, the one that gets most of my attention is the laws about hunting/fishing and protected lands, and the guards and their divisions.

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Burton Sable on 05 January 2015, 19:34:54
As I was brainstorming my crime ideas, i've been bumping against this "law system"  a lot.

When you got Crime (and a rising underworld), the law has to grow as well.

I've been bumping against some of these questions about the law…
And so far i've been assuming things.
For example:
It's a medieval time, medieval lands, yet more civilized and peaceful than years back.
I would assume there is some kind of CODEX, probably created trough a religious system in which there is a moral code and laws.
I would assume this CODEX is the law system of the SANTHRAN who strives for order and peace. (thus the creation of the codex might have also played a part in the unifications of the kingdoms of santharia).
LAWS used to be just a SYSTEM to create ORDER by the former kings (who are now dukes? The moment the kingdoms unified, the other tribes had to give up their titles of kings towards santhros? I'm not sure about this).
So which is important is….
Who are the highest authorities in the kingdom?
They are the wielder of the laws. The Lords of high justice are the same as the Dukes or Kings of santharia (double titles apply to the same position).
Also there are the ORDERS (order of the fallen for example); they might enforce only the laws they stand for. (They might have the function of an FBI or CIA in synonym towards our real world)
The highest authority of any tribe has to live by the rules of the CODEX.
Yet some of the kingdoms still have influences of ancient culture and laws of their own tribes.

Then you would talk about 'slavery'.
There are many more moot points like 'slavery'.
Perhaps the Law against slavery would exist if there had been slavery in the past somewhere.
In this history of slavery there might have been some kind of rebellion or uprising that eventually created a "necessity for this law"

Also there is the questions of:

The punishments.

-Is torture still legal (it's medieval)?
-If an elf performs the same crimes as a human, does the human society make distinctions? What if the punishment is death or the hacking off a limb. Does an elf of 400 years old have to live forever with the loss of a limb? It seems kind of unfair and drastic. However maybe it should be unfair and drastic.
-There might be high courts and prisons for the higher class and the demihumans.
-It's medieval. As crime spawns bigger, there might be needs to make an example out of someone. (how about gallows, head chopping and burning at the stake to set an example towards the lower class?)
-magic and racial crimes might play a big part in the LAWSYSTEM.

My underworld can be written independently of the law system.
I will just assume that somewhere and anywhere every type of law and punishment applies.
The organic evolution of UNDERWORLD is directly influenced by LAWS.

I would look at the higher AUTHORITY to determine LAWS.
A powerful mage or brutal warlord might establish their own laws and are flagged criminals by means of the codex.
But the santhran and kingdoms might still profit somewhat from import and export, and might value the peace in the lands to be more important then pursuing the criminal (as it might mean full-blown war). Thus borders become important. Especially if 2 kingdoms are too different. (1 has slavery, the other doesn't) then you might want to enforce the border or avoid crossing it.
Anyways there are huge grey areas, like illegal migration, or perhaps illegal goods.
There might be tribes in santharia that have no interest in following CODEX laws, simply because it would ruin their welfare.


If you want to make laws or a codex…

I could provide you with some background info regarding to crime, that you could draw from….
Which might stimulate more ideas and aspects to implement.

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Ryldor Gadriel on 06 January 2015, 01:51:03
Is it really that likely that the 'legal' systems across the world are that similar? Would one 'codex' actually apply? Certainly things like theft and cold-blooded murder are probably illegal everywhere, but even in the 'one country' of the USA, laws regarding prostitution, drug use, and weapons possession vary widely. And in other parts of the world, the predominate religion in the area plays a major part in what laws are enforced and how. Across Sarvonia, I'd imagine there would be very wide ranges of laws, courts and punishments. In a city like Ximax or a dwarven mine or elven village, how things are handled would, in my opinion, be quite different. Therefore, there would also be a wide ranges of 'underworlds'.

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Rakvél Tennur on 06 January 2015, 03:39:22
According to the entry regarding Ranks, the Thanes hold a meeting once per year to discuss politics, and while I suspect there'd be variations across Sarvonia, I'm sure there'd be a core law every Thane adheres to, the most abstract and the most general law would be the Codex, from there, each region would probably add to it, or modify, but under the Oath of allegiance none of them could or should subtract from it.

Thus, the Santharian Codex would have to be the barest minimum, like a Constitution, delegating the more specific cases to laws under it.

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Burton Sable on 06 January 2015, 04:28:42
Well i am thinking a bit about 'game of thrones'.

I thought southern sarvonia was called the kingdom of santharia.

And i thought there used to be different kingdoms.

But now they all bow to one king.
The santhran.

I would think there is still lots of laws that differ from country to country.
(especially from race to race)

But there are some laws of unification and laws that concern the greater whole.

The more local laws are bound to territory and are there to advance welfare or some personal gain of the authority.

This codex might be something like "the ten commandments" from the bible, is what i figured.



Now you understand the scope of my entry, and why it's a tough one to write.
It needs to generalize crime as a whole.
Its basically an entry about any crime form in particular.
In the entry i might give examples of territory bound crimes.
Underworld can be found everywhere but how it looks and acts is different, since laws differ; everywhere.

@ Rakvél

That's what i meant.
I thought up 2 directions you could take this in:

The codex is an ancient book, very old.... from which all kingdoms adapted their own versions.
The codex is a newer book.... that was needed to stop wars, bloodshed and complexer crime as it emerged during expansion and unification.

law gets really complex if you add demihumans toward it.
Any small trivial matter, might become a big matter when longer lifespans are involved.

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Rakvél Tennur on 06 January 2015, 08:14:15
Doing some research about laws back in the middle age.

The laws back then were dictated by both the king and the church, with the church having the most general laws as the church gave its authority to the kings of each region. Perhaps we should do this same here, with the most general laws being the ones set in the Thanemoot and by the Santhran, and then each region and race having its particularities, which as I said should add or slightly modify, but not subtract from the central laws.

I figure the laws would be a mix of old and new, since we have ancient races such as the elves, who likely have preserved laws and systems for a very long time, and races such as the dwarves with a very strong tie to traditions. New laws would have to be to unify and settle disputes among the races now united under the banner of the Santharan.

I figure the Codex would be divided in 2 sections, the Civil matters, and the Penal matters, with the civil matters declaring the privileges and obligations for each rank of the society, starting with the King and ending with the peasants, while the Penal matters would go on to classify the "Common crimes" and their punishments within the kingdom...

In any case, in which forum should we post all of this? Perhaps it'd be a good idea to start a section regarding laws and crime?

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 06 January 2015, 17:08:22
Yeah, I agree with most things said here: It's a comparable situation to a union of states like the US or even the EU. Basically, that is. So there needs to be a set of ground rules (Constitution/Codex) laid out by the Santhran, and on that the legislation of the Provinces has to be based, but can vary within the given parameters.

This is valid as long as we talk about provinces as human governmental entities and completely forget about the fact that we also have to deal with territories within these provinces, which are governed by other races (elves, dwarves and halflings). So there's another layer that applies here and has to be taken into account.

In general I guess it can be said that the more important to the kingdom as a whole, the more an issue is likely to fall under jurisdiction of the kingdom (state treason etc.) So there's probably some sort of High Court. Next would be provincial jurisdiction, and then the local one (elven, dwarven, halfling jurisdiction). It has to be determined who was involved/affected by the crimes and based on that it's either the province or the local jurisdiction that has precedence, I'd say.

Two more things:


I guess we can assume that the United Kingdom of Santharia is more or less advanced in this aspect and slavery can be considered abolished. You find a couple of things on that on the site if you search for the term "slavery" in relation to Avennorian history, where people that were brought to the Sarvonian from Aeruillin were considered property, but this was millennia ago. Orcs, half-orcs and the likes might live in kind of slums and be used as cheap work forces after some of them remained in Santharia after the Third Sarvonian War, but they're not slaves as such.

Capital Punishment

The death penalty most likely is still an option at the current date, though it is much rarer used nowadays I would suggest than in ages past. After all Santharia has developed a good deal away from the dark ages, just like there were huge changes here on Earth, but Santharia is still on the brink and hasn't shaken off such practices completely. There are various examples of executions in the past throughout the site and I also mentioned it in the "Uninvited" Santhworld module, because it still adds some authenticity to a medieval setting, so why not have it. On the other hand we could also have e.g. a nice Alcatraz-like prison in Santharia for serious criminals - always good for nice stories :)

Oh, and regarding the church:

Well, there have been major wars in Santharia, where clerics were involved (see this History thread (,10783.0.html), especially Clerical Age 610-825). I would say that there was also a similar development in Santharia as here on Earth that the influence of the church in politics dwindled after such dramatic wars incited by clerics. So while there's still a moral code existing that derived from religion, the Codex shouldn't be directly related to the church. This also because we have major differences in belief as far as the races are concerned, so we cannot just let Santharian human religion dictate a Codex that is meant to apply to all members of the Santharian Kingdom.

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Mina on 06 January 2015, 18:31:03
While there might be some laws that apply to the kingdom as a whole, I'm not so sure about the existence of a constitution in the sense of a set of laws that establishes the structure of the government and defines what it may or may not do.  That's a relatively modern invention, if I'm not mistaken.  In any case, that doesn't seem to be what you guys are talking about, so I'd advise against calling it a constitution. 

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Ryldor Gadriel on 07 January 2015, 01:10:08
A) MINA!!!!! Come hang out in IRC sometime! (That goes for the rest of you too.)

B) Is there actually already something written to say there IS a codex/constitution/Sathran dictated set of rules, or are we assuming there is, or are we creating one just for the sake of creating this one entry?

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Rakvél Tennur on 07 January 2015, 03:19:52
In the Kingdom of Santharia ( entry we can see there were some edicts and changes in the ranks nomenclature as well as the division of the Kingdom when Santhros ascended to the throne.

I imagine there must be some core text that all the allied races signed in order to form the Kingdom, otherwise it'd be a Kingdom awaiting its fall as divisions and differences prevail and maintaining order becomes increasingly difficult.

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Ryldor Gadriel on 07 January 2015, 05:04:44
I don't think you can safely assume that. Just because they would have pledged allegiance and fealty doesn't mean any independent laws were ever codified into a permanent document.

Also the Ranks entry clearly states that  laws were often left to the provinces or, if issued, ignored. So we're back to the same dilemma of provinces either having different laws or ignoring different laws.

And that leads back to my broader question: are we talking about taking on this question of the codex just for the sake of an entry on the underworld?

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Rakvél Tennur on 07 January 2015, 05:49:01
The issue is that, if there is no centralized laws, no "Common Crimes" among the provinces, each province can and likely will have its own underworld pending on its own laws and what they allow or don't allow.

With a set of "Common Crimes" the underworld extends beyond borders among provinces and requires more organization, there's space for more guilds to interact beyond the borders and some issues may scale into Kingdom jurisdiction.

I also like Artimidor's perspective, a crime against the King would not be the same as a crime against another peasant, and there would be crimes against the Kingdom too. I also recall reading somewhere that Necromancy was a forbidden practice throughout the Kingdom, so either all provinces agreed on it, or it was an edict that wasn't ignored.

More so, the Ranks entry doesn't states that all the laws passed by the Santharan are ignored, and doesn't states that the laws resolutions agreed by the Thanemoot are ignored at all, which makes sense. The King is emblematic, and while he does have the power to settle things in a Thanemoot and pass edicts, it's logical that each Thane has some liberty to disobey the King, within a certain limit, since each province has different needs and not all of them may be able to implement the same regulation. This doesn't invalidates the need for a set of core laws to maintain unity and provide order as well as a means of persecution against those that jump from one province to another after committing a crime.

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Mina on 07 January 2015, 19:20:09
A) MINA!!!!! Come hang out in IRC sometime! (That goes for the rest of you too.)
Hi.  I didn't realise anyone still used the channel.  It seemed pretty dead a few years ago. 

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Burton Sable on 07 January 2015, 19:31:28
Have any of you ever played the game " civilization" ?

You create laws and policies based on government type and welfare.

So each civilization (colonization) develops different laws.

Traditionalists might have laws against changing their traditions.

A mageocracy might allow magics that are forbidden normally.

A santhran (high king) his job is to establish order.
He wants to spread his culture (and laws) to make the kingdom into one whole.
To do so he will try to spread his influences and laws and traditions and …..

At one point these borders clash.
And especially with different races or tribes that have a very different welfare, a common set of laws becomes impossible.


There are those universal laws.
The laws of the moral code.

These laws is what everyone knows and is common sense.

This is what i would see as a codex.

In my opinion the laws do no not need to be defined in this entry.
Also i do not need " a codex"  to write the underworld.
Since my entry is a global entry i would write it with applying the laws of common sense.

It actually makes a good sub-section for a grey area.

How about HUMAN TRIBE XXX has the tradition to burn WOOD TREES XXX
But ELF TRIBE XXX sees those trees as elder trees and doesn't want them cut.
A battle breaks out. There is people murdered to protect racial interests.
Its opinionated law….
This is where Santhros comes in with his codex, i think, and plays his part.

I think one there has to be specific laws, it will have to be added to the respected tribe entry.
When someone writes these laws, he might also explain why these laws have to exist.
Which brings us to the roots of these crimes, the swawning of the underworld in this society.

Underworld spawns simply there were the laws fail.
I am not going to name every law.

A group of people. Outstanding citizens, want to make money.
They do some alchemy and travel the world and engineer a new product.
This product stimulates the body to be stronger.
Strenght is power and gives power.
Power is addictive.
So they quickly gain more customers. First surrounding towns. It is used by miners who use the strenght to work 3 times as hard.
Disturbances in welfare are felt.
Other miners can not stand the competition of the " drug using miners"  without using the product themselves.
The flow of money grows as popularity of this drug spreads.
It's all legal….

However the thane sees a progressing number of murders, and dependibility of this drug.
He doesn't like it.
He might change the law, to put a halt to it.
He doesn't want anyone becoming powerfuller then him.
Because it screws up normal welfare.
Beceause he doesn't want people to be addicts.
(…. input various reasons….)

After it happened and the drug has been dealt with.
The law is modified to make it illigal.

The underworld is either created or needs to be created in order for this drug to rise again.
Escape the eye of authority and avoid its hammer of justice.

So i think it's an organic mechanic.
Laws and underworld alike.

There are as many examples as there are stories.

However it's still useful for any story to know were exactly these boundaries of laws and underworld.
I think it should be left to imagination of those that create specific entries about crimes.

The idea is not to restrict writing.
But encourage creating new ideas, and new crimes.

So if a codex or a law-system is written:
I would say its just a guide, like a moral code.
Maybe it needs to just give examples of laws depending on some regions.
It needs to give an idea of why the codex is needed.
If you were to write a global codex for every single law, you might as well write the entire santharian history in it. (it's impossible)

I would keep also the laws in a very general direction.

Make a mention of why magic was forbidden and why it's becoming more legal now.
Just broad and general stuff…

That's what i would think about the subject

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Ryldor Gadriel on 08 January 2015, 02:08:00
Hi.  I didn't realise anyone still used the channel.  It seemed pretty dead a few years ago. 

We're bringing it back!

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Burton Sable on 13 January 2015, 05:58:09
I am still working on this underground.

I was wondering,....

Whats the best way to structure such a entry?

Is it like a peoples entry?
Or a places entry?
Or a tribes entry?

I currently made my own form and structure,...

I think maybe....
it belongs to "other realities" or "other places".

The entry it selves basically describes a layer of society that might fit unto almost any (mainly human) tribe with a urban setting.

 :number1: :whip:

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Ryldor Gadriel on 13 January 2015, 06:13:10
Maybe you could post what you have so far so we'd have a better idea on how to answer your question.

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Kareesh Valendar on 13 January 2015, 06:28:58
*scuttles in*

From what I'm reading and understanding, some of it may be turned into more of a People's entry, as it's an organization. That's where the current Thieves' Underground is.

*scuttles away*

Title: Re: Burton Sable introduction / Santharian Underworld discussion
Post by: Burton Sable on 13 January 2015, 07:23:28
Ok I guess the underworld discussion should continue in the entry i made.
I've posted what i have so far.

It isn't a organization

it's a layer of society.
It can be applied to any urban district.
It acts like a taint.
It can applied toward remusian cities, sarvonian cities and nybelmar cities.
Wherever there is urban life there can be (but doesn't have to be) crime.
Crime as a taint is what i call the underworld.
The underworld is a new entry and it differs from the thieves underground.
The thieves underground is merely a branch, or an aspect of the greater "underworld".
(tough it might be a bit confusing, because the names are similar)

Done (i posted it)