Santharian Development

Organization and General Discussions => The Continent of Nybelmar => Topic started by: Koldar Mondrakken on 28 May 2003, 02:05:00

Title: The dark age, the centuries following the fall of Korweyn
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 28 May 2003, 02:05:00
Thought I coordinate that with you, Smith. I hope most things go along with the Murmillions.

I was thinking that the Murmillion kingdom did not expand its rule to the Korweynite corelands because of internal problems.

However I guess this still means they'd rule about everything that will be continental Aca-Santerra and territories further west. But the further west they get I think the less centralized their rule over the subdued tribes and cities will become. So instead of a homogenous empire they'll more forge an array of vasall states and small semi-independant realms eventually ruled by allies, trusted men or own noblemen including the territory of the Korweynites. However they'd be more interested in getting tribute from this realms rather than ruling them from their own capital. Just what happened to the Roman empire when it was overthrown. (have no better example)

I'd think that during this time Anis-Anpagan would be the only civilized kingdom (of considerable size) that remained and expanded its rule over anything east of the Soho mountains. We could keep here open wether they tried to expand in the direction of Zhun or claimed to be the predominant realm of Nybelmar.

I guess this would then leave the Korweynite lands heavily contested between a dwindling but still strong Murmillion influence and Anis-Anpagan.

In these years also the cities of Aca-Santerra should rise to considerable power but I don't know to what extend the Murmillions would seek to subdue someone with sea power.

From the Kaŭr we can expect that they will avoid all human realms during that time, have not thought about their own troubles in detail, yet, though...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: Re: The dark age, the centuries following the fall of Korwey
Post by: Smith in Exile on 28 May 2003, 16:24:00
cool, I was thinking that we should start working more detailed on some parts of history... Ok, I will read this more carefully and I will post my points asap... (Hmmm, I guess I will have to do Anis-Anpagan then, but as Murmillions are almost leaving the draft-table I guess I can handle it)

Title: let's see...
Post by: Smith in Exile on 31 May 2003, 19:39:00
Ok, I reviewed all the things and I think I'm starting to form a picture. Of course, I will try a "Murmillion version" of facts ;) .

There is one discrepancy that needs to be settled first. In one place you mention that the last battle between Korweyn and Murmillions happened on the Eypesh river and in another place you say that it happened at Korweyn capitol (the City of Kings) on Ranesh river. I'd say to make these the last two decisive battles.
So things should look like this:

Murmillions move into what is now the continental Aca-Santerra, enslaving the local tribes. After a while, they amass a great army there and under the leadership of a great general (actually I'm thinking that this general should be their King also) a very rapid campaign brings them to the Eypesh river. Korweyn is taken by surprise and looses the eastern lands very quickly. By the time when they manage to gather their army, Murmillions were already stationed in the woods of Eypesh. That is the place of a great battle in which Korweynites are defeated despite their superior numbers. The remnants of their army retreat in disorder seeking shelter behind the walls of their capitol. Murmillions also manage to capture in that battle the Korweyn heir to the throne. They push forward to lay siege over the capitol. However, loyalties among Korweynites began to crumble and so they realize that their cause is lost. The only trusted allies, the Kassite newcomers are the only ones that still stand beside the Emperor. Thus they decide for a daring plan. They drove the non-fighting population away from the city, telling them to seek shelter in the west at the mercy of the new Anis-Anpagan power (like choosing the less evil of all). When Murmillions arrive and surround the city, at night, the Emperor riding along the Kassite cavalry attacks the Murmillion encampment. In the chaos that was born, the Emperor dies, the heir is saved and the Kassites ride away keeping him among their ranks. What they did not knew though, was the fact that during the same night, just before the attack, the Murmillion King was assasinated by some of his very own drakkars. Left without a leader and with a city virtually defenseless before them, Murmillion captains pillage the city and set it on fire but they do not push further west. A new ruler is chosen among Murmillions, one which will be known as the Prophet King, and the invasion stops. Korweyn, the ancient enemy is no more, Anis-Anpagan, a new power also opposed to Korweynites rises in the west, and a treaty is issued between them (stating that Murmillions will not further claim the lands west of Eypesh). The Prophet King dies also very quickly (and in suspicious circumstances) and a Queen is chosen this time as a leader. She was to be the one that appointed each of the Captains (that participated in that campaign) to one portion of the conquered land. Thus the provinces are born. Each captain was loyal to a certain Family so in time the provinces became ruled by those Families. And as some gain in power, some loose in power, as the years passed these provinces became more or less authonomous, until the new Korweyn arised.

This would be on short. Now there are still some further details.

-The Murmillion general was a direct descendant of Kyras the Dark, and was supported by the cult known as Ressurection of Menemronn. By his descendance and his convictions he was also an enemy of the elves. The Arkhaeon guild was not seeing this with good eyes, as they have already formed by then an outer circle (branch) in Fullwanooth and thus they came into contact with some Kayr beliefs. Their interest was to deepen the contacts with the elven realms and not to conquer them. Also the other Cults noticed the Arkhaeon preference and especially one of them, that known as The Cult of Fire took the opportunity to tighten their relations with Arkhaeon more than it was permited. The Cult of Fire influenced the Council in taking some theological decisions that were desired by Arkhaeon (mostly in the debate about the "spirit" concept) and in exchange Arkhaeon secretely intermediated the trading between them and Fullwanooth (thus all the Families supporting the Cult of Fire grew in power). Eventually the King/general was assasinated because of these political intrigues. The Prophet King (the following one) was supported by the Cult of Fire but he also died because he wanted to open too much the Murmillion society towards the other nations. He was to be the one that before his death prophesized (well, what "now" can be interpreted as prophecy) the coming of Asthalon the Black.

-I said that Korweynites were taken by surprise initially. This could happen because of two reason and we have to choose which. (or we can keep them both, I don't know). One was that Anis-Anpagan was already skirmishing their western borders. The other one was that the Arkhaeon Guild settled a "circle" in Korweyn under the disguise of an artistic school/movement - a guild of free teachers, that were employed by the wealthy families of Korweyn to teach their children in the way of arts and wisdom. (of course, they were seen as foreigners, but it was more like a trend, a trend which costed them dearly - as this guild generated lots of uprising and a general feeling of discontent with the current way of governing). Hmmm... tell me what you think.

-The Cult of Fire through Arkhaeon's mediatings could be that which influenced the troubles that arosed among the elves during those times. Meaning the fire elves, and the civil war that splited the forest in two...?

-The first landings of Santerrans. I'm thinking that they were actually let by Murmillions to settle there, through bribes, or maybe even they bought that province from them???

Title: a little more
Post by: Smith in Exile on 01 June 2003, 11:02:00
about Anis-Anpagan. The focus of that treaty with Murmillions would be the region around Sohon mountains (rich in resources) but although both powers exercised their influence there none of them manage to subdue that region completely. Actually I think that Kassites had prevented them from establishing a full control in ex-Korweyn (as they were constantly raiding their caravans etc. - guerilla style). So Anis-Anpagan focused more on the west of Nybelmar - Zhun...

Now about the Kassites. I guess it would be a nice way to introduce that race of half-breed (elves-orcs), when they came to Korweyn they were probably running from them...

Title: Re: a little more
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 03 June 2003, 04:54:00
Some quick notes, I'm currently at work.

Generally okay though I think the length of this conflict should be considered far longer (Beginning in ancient times when we take the history introduction for granted.) Thus the Murmillion kingdom should already control more than its corelands as does Korweyn. The whole war between those realms took place between what is now Aca-Santerra's land and the Eypesh.
What you describe would be not a surprise attack but rather a breakdown in the Korweynite empire that offered a weakness to exploit. In mythical terms it would be speculated that the last emperor violated divine will, in truth treachery like you describe it will lead to his fall.

About Anis-Anpagan. I mixed up directions, I guess, I think the kingdom should at least control anything to Gelm thus the west of the Sohon mountains but as the Korweynite corelands are very prosperous with lotsof population and resources they'd try to get in there, too.

An expansion to Zhun is more difficult and less economic as there is lots of barren land that's not populated by civilzed people. They'd propably try to get influence over both regions but in my opinion as Korweyn is closer and weaker they'd try it with direct military means there.

Hmmm... the Kassites being hunted as the last loaylists would be indeed a good idea but as they're not Korweynites they wouldn't have a basis for successful guerrillia war but only the ability to evade being subdued by either side.

Currently I've a timing problem. in 1649 b.S. the Santerrans will be willing to wage war on the continent, however the Murmillion kingdom as a central entity will have been fallen into disorder.

But I chose the year 1483 b.S. for the Korweynites to rise again. I'm currently unsure if that all fits together. I mainly want the new Korweynites to rise later because otherwise the Santerrans would have trouble settling on the continent...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: ok
Post by: Smith in Exile on 04 June 2003, 10:34:00
Actually, yes, this is how I thought of that war, as the final campaign (the breakout). So let's revise :) :

First Murmillions enslave the tribes on the territory that belongs now to Aca-Santerra. In the meantime, Korweyn expands its borders east of Eypesh, thus the two powers meet and a long war begins. In a first stage, Murmillions manage to push back Korweyn west of Eypesh, but as much as they try they cannot pass the river. In a second stage, Korweyn gains the territories east of Eypesh again, and then we have long years of skirmishing east and west of Jerrah and also around the lake between the two rivers.
During those times, the Arkhaeon Guild is having their first "spreading", different branches being established on elven lands and Korweyn. Close to the final campaign, uprisings appear on the Korweyn lands and also Anis-Anpagan enters the stage in the west. But I think that Korweyn would report to this more with a feeling of annoyance than worry.
The campaign takes place and Korweyn is defeated.
Their Emperor dies in that final battle but the heir is saved by Kassites.
Thus we have the Korweynian dynasty preserved by Kassites, so this would make one of their clans (as you said) the last "loyalists". I'm thinking that this particular clan moved west of Ranesh, far from Murmillion influence (I guess it's a logical move, as the Korweyn bloodline would have been ruthlessly hunted on the territories under Murmillion influence). So this particular clan can wage a "guerilla" war but mostly against Anis-Anpagan influence (and also trying to regain the loyalty of the former Korweyn people on those lands).
Other Kassite clans could have remained on the lands between Eypesh and Ranesh, but I am thinking of some very dark times for them: they were nomads (and they lived in tents in those times - as their entry states) and they also were known as the former fiercest warriors in the Korweyn-Shadow wars. Therefore there is no way in which Murmillions (and thus their new vassals also) could tolerate their presence. Grim stories can come out of this...

Anis-Anpagan and Zhun. All depends on the land region between them, I suppose that should be a desert, very hard to cross. But I am thinking that maybe Anis-Anpagan was more of a naval power than land power in military terms. But not as good as Santerrans of course. Anyway, I am thinking about this because somewhere you mention about an agreement between Santerrans and Anis-Anpagan, concerning the southern islands. Thus maybe we can imagine that Anis-Anpagan navy was powerfull but only in their waters (and thus in the bay between them and Zhun). For instance, there is a battle that took place between egyptians and some northern barbarians (there are still a lot of controverses about who those barbarians were) in the times of Ramses the Second (or the first? geez... I need to review my knowledges a little lol). The egyptians won both battles, on land and on sea. The naval battle was won despite the clear superiority of barbarian ships: but there were little winds where the Nile goes into the sea, and thus, the sails were useless; the egyptians vessels had all rows and made an easy prey of the helpless barbarian vessels. Ok. So we can say that Anis-Anpagan vessels are suited for their waters, where little winds can be found, but if they want more than to protect their lands (or to wage war on Zhun) they would be no match for Santerran's more advanced ships.
So we can imagine a naval war between Anpagan and Zhun (without land conquerings though), that ended with Anis-Anpagan controling their trade.

Hmmm... I have a question: there is a city marked on the map west of Anis-Anpagan. Yet no nation is claiming it, so what is that city's story?

About the timing problem. No, I think it's ok. Santerrans need time to establish a foothold and Korweyn needs even more time to put together all the provinces. So 150 years is ok.

Title: Kayr
Post by: Smith in Exile on 04 June 2003, 10:39:00
oh, and about Kayr, yes they should avoid the human realms but I am thinking that their main problem is that new "breed" of fireelves...

Title: Re: ok
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 16 June 2003, 13:30:00
I have reread the notes of my first draft and noticed that I roughly planned the Korweynites to win over the Murmillions first but fail later.

Maybe we can combine the current and this old approach to our advantage. The Korweynite empire destroys the Kingdom of Kyras the Dark and enter their golden age. The Murmillions are only keeping their original homelands. Maybe here your sect emerges and ignites new spirit to the Murmillions while the Korweynites fall into an own spiritual unrest. Power struggle within the ruling casts and uprises by various conquered tribes weaken the empire and it does not pay too much attention to an enemy they deem destroyed or shattered. The Murmillions increase in strength, eventually their religion mixing up with the unrest of some subdued tribes and dare to launch a war against the empire seeking to topple their hated enemy.
The battle goes as descibed.

What might make it more suitable is that it might as well explain why the Murmillions did not create an empire of their own of it. As their own kingdom (The Shadowrealm) fell their attack on Korweyn was more holy war by the Murmillion people(directed by the sect) than a war waged by some king and while Murmillion nobles, priests or adventurers spread over the other lands of the Korweynites and used their military victory to subdue the regions, there was no strong kingdom that could merge it into some greater realm. The Murmillion kingdom can prosper with decent but not overwhelming influence on the continent but the Korweynite realm simply remains shattered leaving room for Anis Anpagan and Aca-Santerra to rise.

The Year of Darkness would be then a new impulse that would cause the Murmillions to uprise against the "heretics" that now come from the sea to subdue what is meant to be theirs but as the Santerrans win they're contained and the Korweynites reemerge in 1480 b.S.  more about that in the entry in the people forum.

Does that sound good/better or would you rather stick to the two adversary kingdoms through all ancient centuries?

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
 Weakness is strength. Hope is life.

Title: yep
Post by: Smith in Exile on 17 June 2003, 00:48:00
"my sect"?... lol

Yep, I see no problem with this old and new approach. but maybe except the guild's involvement. I have finished an entry about it and you can check it out in the cosmology forum (it came out pretty long though).
There I thought that the beginnings of the guild should not be so enthusiastic, therefore I'd say not to involve it in the first war (which ended in the destruction of Kyras' Kingdom).
Now all the wars waged by Murmillions are supposed to be somehow "holy", so I'm ok with that.

An enthusiasm influenced by the guild should be after the year of darkness, as this is the only way in which I can see the free murmillions survive that defeat and resist to Santerran assimilation.
Anyway, read a little through that entry (especially in the history section) and see if you agree with some of the things there.

Also, as more or less, Kyras and Korweyn were your original concepts I would prefer to let you draw the history of that first war, ok?

Title: just a detail
Post by: Smith in Exile on 18 June 2003, 11:11:00
when Kyras forged the kingdom he imposed his dinasty as the ruling one. after Korweyn defeats them in this first war, the Cults decide that the Kingdom should be ruled by a King elected in a Council of the Cults.

so, this first war should be the real act of birth for the Second Shadow.