Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Santharian Artists Workshop and Resources => Topic started by: Isilhir on 17 June 2004, 10:52:00



Title: Coór the Shadow
Post by: Isilhir on 17 June 2004, 10:52:00
Here he is folks... the big badass himself...
brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr -PSCHH!

(click on image to enlarge)



Stay tuned for (ready?) more Ulvur things!:fish    

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"You can't be a Real Country unless you have A BEER and an airline-it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a BEER."
- F. Zappa

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/18/04 22:40


Title: ...
Post by: Kikhku on 17 June 2004, 11:29:00
o.o!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm scared ::hides behind whoever posts next::

It looks like something out of an alien movie,  Only differance is I wouldn't want that thing for a pet.  Great contrasting colors, but the blue seems a little akward in there.  Awesome pic though!  :clap  



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 17 June 2004, 12:10:00
Great as always, Isilhir, though in my vision he was always darker - or maybe not darker,but coming out of a pitchblack background.... the reds are aweful..

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Isilhir on 17 June 2004, 12:29:00
thanks!:)  

well, I did several sketches originally intended to show him far more darker... but it just seemed so dull and boring.  In my opinion, there are more sides to the shadow than just darkness, and I especially got that image from the description of Coór. The description has a paradox: it describes the dark god as a great shadow, yet he is also the embodiment of fear, wrath and hatred, and also described as a god of chaos. In my opinion, such strong feelings can't be represented by darkness alone, but also strong colours; hence the contrast. I can't see evil in complete blackness, I reckon there are more elements to it.

Awe-ful or awful..? :lol  

------------------
"You can't be a Real Country unless you have A BEER and an airline-it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a BEER."
- F. Zappa

Edited by: Isilhir at: 6/16/04 21:47


Title: Re: ...
Post by: Isilhir on 17 June 2004, 12:39:00
Ok, I made an alternative version in... Photoshop*shrudders* to make him darker... I personally like first version better, but if you still want a more traditional picture you can use this one:


(click on image to enlarge)


------------------
"You can't be a Real Country unless you have A BEER and an airline-it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a BEER."
- F. Zappa

Edited by: Isilhir at: 6/16/04 20:39


Title: Re: ...
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 17 June 2004, 13:07:00
I like the first one better despite it seeming too bright for the Lord of darkness. `The blackness takes too much attention away from the head.

What I was wondering - and don't beat me for that philosophical question - should we illustrate Coór and Avá? For me these two are more like abstract concepts rather than real creatures with body etc... it just seems limiting for these two, at least for the elven interpretation of them?

Though we have his manifestations as Coór Melór but I don't know if this means he was taking the precise form of some Netherbeast or something then. And what the humans might imagine is beyond me, the painting nearly looks too scary for the Santharian devil.;)


The painting is amazing though! Great work, Isilhir!


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Isilhir on 17 June 2004, 13:43:00
Thanks!

Well, I don't know about whether or not keeping Avá and Coór as abstract essences.. as I recall I asked Arti for a bad guy to illustrate, and he said that Coór only had an old black and white picture and that I was welcome to make a new, coloured one.
However, I do think that the prime divines should be somewhat elusive and erie, and that was partly what I tred to do in the picture.
As for Coór Melor(sp?), I got the impression he had the appearance of a wicked man or man-like creature.. this picture is probably a bit too extreme for him, but I dunno...;)  

..and I orginally planend to just copy a picture of Goerge Bush, but I think that would have been TOO scary:speechless  

------------------
"You can't be a Real Country unless you have A BEER and an airline-it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a BEER."
- F. Zappa

Edited by: Isilhir at: 6/16/04 21:52


Title: Re: ...
Post by: Drogo on 17 June 2004, 13:50:00
Definately another great pic Isilhir.  I agree with Koldar on this, perhaps say this is a representation of a certain so and so's vision during SWIII or a manifestation of Coor supposedly seen at the Dark Winds portal, something like that with the addition that "none may ever truly know what Coor is, for he comes as that which we most fear."  

Dirg'mystrume of the Helvet'ine Kuglim.  
Lord of the North



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 17 June 2004, 14:16:00
Quote:
... for he comes as that which we most fear."


Coór looks like the Marshmallow Man?!?! :veryconfused  


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 17 June 2004, 16:11:00
Ok, sorry for taking so long to comment, I first watched EC and then had to go check out the location where my the building with my new appartment will stand in a year or two.

Ok, back to the topic: The picture is magnificent, seems like a crossing of an Alien by H.R.Giger and Diablo - and it combines the power and might in both very well:)  Very detailed, pretty frightening and I like also the idea that it isn't precisely drawn as a clear figure, but that the lower part is somehow only hinted at... Fantastic job, Isilhir! Time to move my teddybear version into the eternal pit of nothingness:)  :thumbup :worship

Oh, BTW: How large is the original picture? A closeup of the head could come in handy perhaps somewhere...

Concerning the dark parts: Yes, though the different colours add a new quality to the picture, I definitely have a clear preference for the dark version. At least it is the picture of Coór the Shadow, and as such the second version where the figure emerges from the darkness is the most effective. Version 1 gives a way too much of his mysterious nature for me. Picture 1 has a very different quality, yup, but this quality further away to the idea of the God, so I'd prefer no. 2. But let's hear more voices here.

About the depictions of elven Gods: Elves are very much focussed on beauty and perception, on what the Greek would call "aisthesis" and from which we derive the word aesthetics. So I personally would see depictions of Avá's beauty as an integral part of elven belief, not in order to worship a certain face, but to try to re-produce the perfect beauty in praise of Avá. Elven religion cannot be compared with the e.g. Christianity and it's common depictions of God as a wise Grandfather with a long white beard or something, where it is actually said that depictions lead away from true belief. Elven belief is quite the opposite - picture help you to reflect and dive into the divine world, which you experience also in nature. Avá and Coór aren't abstract principles, the elves basically see how they appear in the world!

Coór BTW is the ultimate realisation of Avá and therefore is seen as a reality, a materialisation of the High Goddess. Dark Elves therefore would see a depiction of Coór as pretty normal, but not an elf, I assume, who'd only use an Avá picture to find back to his Goddess, while a Coór picture leads away. Coór (under slightly differnt names) is also the 13th God of the humans, so the image most probably is drawn by a human.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Isilhir on 17 June 2004, 16:20:00
the full version is the biggest version, since the original is only an A4 in size. However I can just rescan the picture and save a cropping focusing on the head... hold on:)  

------------------
"You can't be a Real Country unless you have A BEER and an airline-it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a BEER."
- F. Zappa



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Isilhir on 17 June 2004, 16:27:00
Here's the head, with some shadows added...;)

------------------
"You can't be a Real Country unless you have A BEER and an airline-it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a BEER."
- F. Zappa



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Zdoth Natterath on 17 June 2004, 21:46:00
I like the 1st one best

Those eyes are nasty, i REALLY dont want to meet him in a dark alley....*shivers at the thought*



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 17 June 2004, 23:30:00
I meant indeed awe-inspiring! :)

I would like to see him darker, but not the way you did it in the second pic. I wished you could not just add dark spots, but make the painting itself darker in some places.What might irritate me, is the bright spot next to his face. But that's just my opinion - it is always difficulty to draw such a thing, if everybody has already his own image in the head.

The head itself is great, so threatening

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 18 June 2004, 00:15:00
Dearest Isilhir, I know,I'm a nasty person, but I couldn't but try out to add more shadows just with using the ?? brush which darkens without adding color.
I have the problem again, that with mac and flatscreen, I can't really see, how the pic should look like or how you will see mine.


Here is my try - I didn't do anything with the face or hand - for comparison:





This looks so different when posted , compared to when I see it directly at my comp


So I did a darker version as well, this time using a filter for intensity and brightness as well





So, you might :fish    me now for screwing up your pic, but it is just so tempting! (Hey, I wouldn't do it, if it wasn't a great pic anyway!)

The first one is still not dark enough when posted :(  , but the bright spot next to the face looks very good now, when the rest is darker (like you are looking into hell :lol  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 6/17/04 10:15


Title: Re: ...
Post by: Isilhir on 18 June 2004, 02:29:00
:lol  that's ok Talia, those are rather interesting adaptations.. I realize now taht my attempt to be original mayhap was a bit far-fetched:p

the latter one looks best, even if the darkening of the bright spot  gives an odd contrast to the head;)

altho i'm a bit confused now.. which picture will be the fina lversion, if there will ever be a final version??8o  

------------------
"You can't be a Real Country unless you have A BEER and an airline-it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a BEER."
- F. Zappa



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 18 June 2004, 02:41:00
I'm so frustrated with my nice flat screen, I just don't know, how the pics look really, or how you do see them  
:| :( :x  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 18 June 2004, 03:28:00
The problem is that Macs generally have a brighter colour code than pc screens. On both of my monitors the last version has flattening black spots even if I go to full brightness (where my monitor black becomes a dark grey and is thus far too bright) which fragments the painting for me (the arm looks detached from the rest of the body.

Every single monitor has a different appearance, e.g. my older 21'' leans towards blue where as my newer 19'' seems yellow/green in the grey tones. Well, the later could be because I always see the blue tint in the other screen and might value grey as yellowish due to the contrast. There's sadly no solution to that though flatscreens are all more stable colour-wise than the old monitors(where sharpness and colours degrade with age).


Art, I find the illustration of Avá and worshipping of her pictures an extremely human trait. I'd have thought that the elves would marvel at the beauty in the world (be it a nice sunset or the veins of a leaf), pondering over the Dream itsself and not over some fictional appearance of its dreamer and its thus artificial beauty. A personification would be in my feeling an over-simplification of their belief. Something what more likely humans would do so the masses of the people understand it as well.

With abstract I meant, that Avá and Coór are both deities not based on direct observation (thunder in the sky = Thor, sun = Foiros) or as part of a divine hierachy(both stand above the other gods and are not part of their pantheon) but are both part of a deeper philosophical theory of how the elves believe the different forces in the world work.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 6/17/04 11:47


Title: Re: ...
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 18 June 2004, 03:51:00
Hell, macs are MUCH? brighter? Then Mimi must have quite a dark skin for you,what was not intended!
I'm just looking at all pics with Johannas comp(=mac with normal screen). The second is much too dark then, but I don't see the flattening black spots on the first. (Why are you going to full brightness, when I want to have it darker?)
Well, I see no solution here, the only windows pc I have acces to sometimes is a notebook with flatscreen *sigh*

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 18 June 2004, 05:13:00
I meant the second. Wanted to check if there is a variation of shades I cannot see with my screen settings as the black was too dominant to me swallowing all the details.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Isilhir on 18 June 2004, 12:15:00
hmm after further consideration I actually think I like the first one of Talia's versions best.. so I vote for that one!

------------------
"You can't be a Real Country unless you have A BEER and an airline-it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a BEER."
- F. Zappa



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 18 June 2004, 12:43:00
I agree with Isilhir as well, the first one is darker than the original version and thus comes closer to the Coór the Shadow idea. It also still has the colour very dominant, though, making it more red and bloodier. While the second version of Talia can be too dark at monitors which aren't properly adjusted (clearly visible at my company's computer) - though it still looks pretty much ok on my computer monitor at home, which is calibrated with the Adobe Calibration tool. I suggest to perhaps try to calibrate the monitor with Adobe Gamma if you have Photoshop installed (you can find it in the Windows Control Panel called "Adobe Gamma") - or to perhaps download such a tool from somewhere - this is very helpful:)

@Koldar and the depiction of elven Gods: Your argumentation comes definitely from a human point of view, where ideas and appearance are two seperate things. The appearance only represents the idea, and you need to get away from appearance to see the idea - that's common Platonism and the way European philosophy works since more than 2000 years. I don't intend to make elves humans, though. For the elves in general appearance and idea are one, ethics and aesthetics are pretty much the same (while humans need prescriptive rules to define morality), living for the elves is also identical with belief, and so is the process of creating and producing - and this also refers to the Gods, especially Avá.  Elves are pretty much artists in my point of view - concerning artwork and life. Though it is evident that elves would never fall back into a stereotypical depiction of Avá - every picture is different, and meant to be so, quite unlike the human depictions of e.g. God Father here on earth.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 18 June 2004, 15:25:00
You mean they draw a nice lady because they think Avá is a nice lady? Avá is ethical "good" so she is aesthetical beautiful? What I meant was that the elves would be more concerned about the world as Avá's Dream than Avá herself because the Dream is the only part of Avá they can perceive.

Drawing a fictional charakter is human superstitution (just like the stereotypic godfather you mentioned), it sounds as if they need a personified goddess because they otherwise couldn't believe in her. My impression of elves was more that they are that aware of themselves and the world that they don't need symbols to believe what they do is the right path and that they only play a part in a Dream.

I see it fitting, too, that they are very aesthethic in what they do.

Plato aside I find it very human to personify the one god you believe in, instead of simply believing in certain ways that are viable. I also find it normal that a god or anything else appears in a human's mind the way they judge him morally. A bad guy is ugly, a good guy beautiful...

But maybe I don't quite understand why elves would need a drawn  image of Avá in the first place.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 6/17/04 23:40


Title: Re: ...
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 18 June 2004, 15:46:00
Elves produce artwork as a process of re-creating the beauty they experience in the world. A drawing of Avá is a re-creation of the highest beauty possible an elf can think of - it's more the experience of doing the artwork instead of having the result of it and worship it. And so do the elves see their lives: as artwork and beautiful representation of Avá.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/17/04 23:48


Title: Re: ...
Post by: Eshoh Kryvvlen on 18 June 2004, 17:35:00
I do like Talia's version, there is still the bright spot(though dimmer, which is nice), which leads me to think of Coór as drowning out the light... he was born from the dreams of Avá, and so he tries to poison them. Darkness does not need lots of black to give it the correct atmosphere, I think, the subtler blues and reds of the darkest spots look pleasing, so it looks great!

treading the shoreline, i heard your name...



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 19 June 2004, 05:47:00
Ok, I see that so as well, but as such this is their way in all they do. When it comes down to draw Avá I however still find it an extreme simplification done by an elf to draw Avá as a person, isn't the beauty of Avá part of anything anyway and thus a more universal force? I always saw her more as a female Illuvater than like one of the Valar.

I would think a "drawing of Avá" wouldn't be about simply drawing her as a person but more like drawing a Mandalla, if it is to be drawn/carved onto a doorstep, a pillar or a painting is secondary but the art/design done is meant to touch some higher plane. Doing art in general being equal to drawing Avá for the elves.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight



Title: Re: ...
Post by: Roguehammer on 20 June 2004, 11:48:00
I like the second one of Talia's best. It seems more evil,, showing that there is something there, but making it hard to tell, just what it is, and just what you're up against makes it more apprehensive. So I like that one better.

"There was no Peace, no Security, nay, there was only Hatred and Misery and Pain. Before Roguehammer."