Santharian Development

Santharian Game Projects => RPG Adventure Programming => Topic started by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 June 2003, 14:10:00



Title: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 June 2003, 14:10:00
I've started with writing the dialogue lines for the Pinn quest... You have to think about various different states of quest stages the player can be currently in like (or not in yet), and still get the correct answer... It's not easy to think about everything, but with such a typical quest we might get these issues resolved hopefully so that the dialogue handling in relation to quests can be clarified.

I'll post the new lines of the Pinn quest tomorrow and will point out what we need to do where concerning scripts so that everything works correctly according to the different quest branches. Once this is approved (or changes and rewrites are necessary), then other quests should be able to follow this dialogue scheme without any major problems.

Stay tuned...


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Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 June 2003, 10:04:00
Ok, here's an outline how I think that dialogues need to be written concerning quest design and what LT needs to be aware of...

We've already stated that the dialogue of Ilbeth Derkhan has a script when displaying the GETPINN_YES keyword, which sets Quest 1 to status 2.

Now let's see what is necessary from Pinn's side to continue with the quest. I put in the keyword's here chronologically:

Keyword: QUEST_1_2
Text: ...
Answer(s): "Pinn, I've talked with your mommy... She said you should head back home and fetch something to eat!" (leads to HOME)

As you can see, I've given the keyword already an indicator concerning at which quest step we are at the moment. Text is not necessary at all, only a point where to start the dialogue. Which means: Once the player got the quest from Ilbeth and meets Pinn again, then the program needs to check when the talk starts with Pinn what the status of the quest 1 is. Depending on this result either the keyword answer to QUEST_1_2, QUEST_1_3 or no answers at all need to be displayed as well.

Note: This check is only then necessary if the "known"-flag of Pinn is true if the dialogue is started (again). If the player hasn't talked to Pinn before at all, but got the quest to get him, then you first need to get as far in the dialogue with Pinn until you know him. Then, at the next opportunity, the quest-related query needs to determine what additional question to add to the questions pools. Note that if a "locked question" is displayed while the known-flag is set (e.g. something you have to answer with yes/no)  then the quest-related question will appear one round later.

Ok... Once that the QUEST_1_2 question is displayed there may be a bit of talk between the player and Pinn until the next quest step comes into play. Like this:

HOME
Text: Pinn looks at you doubtfully. "No, I won't go home," he says shortly and continues playing with his ship.
Answer(s): "Why's that you don't want to go home, Pinn? Your mom surely has cooked a good meal I wouldn't want to miss..." (leads to HOME_WHY)

HOME_WHY
Text: "Well..." Pinn looks around and utters some awkward sounds. "Uhm... Ehm... - It's because of... of the ball!" he admits finally.
Answer(s): "What ball do you speak of? What's the problem with this ball?" (leads to BALL_LOST)

BALL_LOST
Text: Suddenly everything pours out of Pinn. He gets up and starts talking. "Could you... could you help me?" he asks with questioning eyes. "I... I have lost the ball... It fell into the sea when I played with Mimi, and now I can't reach it anymore... Dad only finished it yesterday, making it just for me, and now I've already lost it. He won't make anything for me anymore! - But it's still there! I just can't reach it..." His face brightens. "But maybe you can, #PY#!" Pinn jumps up and down excitedly.
Answer(s): "Where exactly did you lose the ball?" (lead to BALL_WHERE)

BALL_WHERE
Text: "It's up the shore... Just a few peds north... I'm sure you'll find it! - Will you help me?" Pinn asks pleadingly.
Answer(s): "I'll see what I can do." (leads to HELP_YES)
"I'm sorry, but I have other things to do." (leads to HELP_NO)

Ok, we've come to a crossroads here, and we need to be prepared for both cases. Let's say the player decides not to help Pinn. In this case we need to guarantee that he still can continue the quest at a later time in the game, and that it isn't lost forever once and for all. - I propose to just handle this with an additional quest status.

Let's say status of quest 1 set to 3 means he has denied it.
Let's say status of quest 1 set to 4 means he has accepted it.

If the player has denied it and returns to Pinn, the program checks again the current quest status, finds 1-3 is active and will display the answers to QUEST_1_3.

Keyword: QUEST_1_3
Text: ...
Answer(s): "About the ball you're missing..." (leads to BALL_MISSING)

continued this looks like this:

BALL_MISSING
Text: "Yes? Will you get it for me now?" Pinn eyes you hopefully.
Answer(s): "I'll see what I can do." (leads to HELP_YES)
"I'm sorry, but I have other things to do." (leads to HELP_NO)

As you can see, this leads the dialogue back to the decision (the answers are the same).

The other possibility is that the player accepts. If he says yes, then the dialogue continues with:

HELP_YES
Pinn smiles all over his face. "Please, please! I'm sure you can get it! Please, please try!"

And the dialogue is currently at an end, which means: The quest has been given, status is at 4.

Assuming now the player gets the ball (quest status will be 5 in this case already), then the whole scheme (check what quest status, display keyword etc.) will continue as described, only that the QUEST_1_5 will be displayed or not.

However, Pinn needs to be prepared for all quest possibility, and the one we haven't thought about yet is QUEST_1_4. Which means: Player got the quest, and then decides to talk to Pinn again without having solves the quest yet.

This would look like this in dialogue form:
Keyword: QUEST_1_4
Text: ...
Answer(s): "About the ball you're missing..." (leads to BALL_WORKING)

BALL_WORKING
Text: "Yes? Do you have it already?" Pinn asks.
Answer(s): "Sorry, but I'm still not done. But I promise to get your ball back." (WORKING_YES)
"Seems I can't get it." (WORKING_NO)

And for both options you get a response from Pinn (without any further answers):

WORKING_NO
Text: Pinn drops his head. "But there must be a way..." he whispers to himself.

WORKING_YES
Text: "Ok, I'm waiting then."

----

That's it basically. I guess all possibilities are covered here in this proposal. Plan is to only send you the quest related XMLed-keywords, which - in combination with the final quest definition according to the template - will help you to determine how to integrate it by looking at the keywords only. Let me know if this is ok with you, Humangus, or if you can think of an easier way.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 22 June 2003, 08:29:00
I 've been thinking about the integration of quest logic into the XML dialogue docs. I thnink it is better to use <option> tags that will have a quest step requirement before they can be added to the pool.

e.g <option target="something" quest="QUEST_1_2">some text</option>

This option can be added at any part of the dialogue and will be shown only if the player is at step 2 of quest 1. The target of the option can lead to keywords and topics that otherwise are not accessible during the main course of the dialogue.

All quest related options can be very easilly added to the <start> tag which means they will be activated but they will not be accessible (added to the pool) until the required quest steps are reached.

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 22 June 2003, 16:14:00
Slowly I'm believing that doing the exams in quantum mechanics was easier, LOL.

*Reassures herself, that if she has passed the tests in quantum mechanics(YES) she will pass this as well*

***Astropic of the day***



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 June 2003, 11:20:00
Ok... So do I get this right if I convert the example above simply to:

<start>
<text>As you approach, the little blonde-haired kid turns away from you, hiding its toy from view. Seems like he is not very fond of talking to strangers.</text>
<option target="HOME" quest="QUEST_1_2">"Pinn, I've talked with your mommy... She said you should head back home and fetch something to eat!"</option>
<option target="BALL_MISSING" quest="QUEST_1_3">"About the ball you're missing..." </option>
<option target="BALL_WORKING" quest="QUEST_1_4">"About the ball you're missing..." </option>
</start>

... and add the targeted keywords below as nodes just like I do with all other keywords? This wouldn't be too much trouble as I could just go through all keywords starting with "QUEST_" and collect them at the start keyword. And putting it in the START node only suffices? Well, fine with me.

But I'd need to mark somewhere as well that the quest status has changed (details on what items the player gets or what items he/she doesn't have after a keyword can be found in the quest definition script anyway). But in which XML tag should I mark that a quest step changes (or that other variables etc. need to be set aside from the quest definitions)?

Just confirm and/or specify, and I'll see to adjust the XML export to these needs:D  


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/23/03 19:21


Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 25 June 2003, 03:42:00
Yes, this is what I think is best. Put all quest related options at the start.

For the quest details though (items removed etc) I don't think is a good idea to add these details in the dialogue itself. These XML documents describe the dialogue and it will be best not to cram too many details in the dialogue. Quest details can be in a separate document in natural language. Since there will not be any automatic generation due to the complex of the matter there is no reason to describe a quest in a structured format. Once I understand how the quest goes I will integrate it.

So, in the XML docs just handle the quest dialogue and give the quest details for each step in a separate document. This would be best for me.

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 25 June 2003, 11:19:00
Good, good. So I will adjust my XML export function to that then.

And I will write additional notes either in the quest definition or point certain keywords of importance (those which require scripted actions) out seperately as well.

Good to have these things clarified. Definitions make the life of a game designer much easier, though not less stressful:D  

---

Ok, just adjusted the XML export... Works fine already:)

Question, Humangus: If I export an already existing dialogue anew (if there are new keywords) do you want the whole thing or just the new keywords (or respectively those which have changed, cause older ones could have changed as well of course).


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/24/03 20:41


Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 26 June 2003, 02:32:00
I think it's best to send it all again. Changing the dialogue would be more difficult and perhaps confusing.

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 26 June 2003, 15:32:00
Ok, Pinn quest done and sent... As I've stated in the mail already: It gets a bit more complicated and challenging now with this quest, but if it all works, it should be fun;)


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 03 July 2003, 10:23:00
Ahoy! Pinn Quest Integrated. Pinn and Ilbeth dialogues integrated as well. There are some general things I noticed though.

1) Pinn calls the merchant Uncle Tenni and Ilbeth says: Oh! that merchant ??? I mean if the merchant is Pinn's uncle shouldn't Ilbeth know him really good?

2) You mention in the description of that dish that it looks delicate. You meant delicious perhaps or delicate gets another meaning?

3) Room 162 is added twice. Room 162 is the room you get when you try to move south from the starting location and the room where you try to get Pinn's ball as well.

4) Finally. Where does the player get the net from? This should be part of the Quest Items right? Also give me a description of the net if not too much trouble.

That's all. After these issues (mainly the 4th) the new game version will ship 8)

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 03 July 2003, 11:45:00
Good, good... If there are no problems with the quest, others shouldn't be too difficult to add now as well, now that we know how precisely we can do them:)  - Looking forward to play the result!

Ok, some answers:

1) Well, I wrote "Uncle Tenni", because it is quite common among smaller children to call bigger people they know a bit better "uncle", without actually knowing what the word means. So that's just Pinn's way of expressing things. But we could add that for example to Ilbeth's dialogue - the player could ask Ilbeth abouth the "uncle"-thingy and get the answer I gave you here for example. I'll see to that.

2) Yeah, you're correct: "delicious" is the right word.

3) Also correct... Arti gets old and grey... Well, rename the "Shell Beach" Room 163 then, I'll update the map then.

4) I thought I had put it into the ducraer south of Terlano's house, but actually that was only a rope as I just saw. Well, I'll put a net in it as well and send you details this evening.

I'll also look through at least a few Talia rooms for the western part of the game and will include them as well...


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 07 July 2003, 10:36:00
OK. I had some trouble with the quest but I finally got it as I always do. Hehehe ...

This is the link of the new version. Get it and test it good.

Latest Version of the Nepris Adventure

I discovered a bug with the journal display but don't pay too much attention.

I have also made some alterations to handle various stuff. For example if the player gets the ball but drops it somewhere he should no be able to tell Pinn about it and complete the quest.

Have fun and cheer up :D  

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 08 July 2003, 05:02:00
Just checked it in more detail at the midday break in my company...

It really is quite an adventure already to walk through all rooms and do everything which is possible, and the Pinn quest and the little other things like the deer pic and the snake options etc. already make it really interesting to play.

Some things I've noticed, though:

- At 1024x768: Journal Book doesn't resize for some reason (at least it didn't on my company computer, worked yesterday at my other one, with a higher resolution). Arrows, texts like Journal and Quests are in position, but the book background is not.

- Enter the House (Prosperous Farmhouse): Not possible with Numpad, also exiting.

- When going staight to Ilbeth without seeing Pinn first and she asks about Pinn, the option "Yeah sure, I've even talked to him. He's at the shore, just a bit to the south." is available.

- If you re-enter the room with the ball the conditional text about the ball being washed against the rocks should be displayed as well.

- If you talk to Terlano and at the beginning make clear that he should step aside, then Terlano quits the dialogue and you can't enter any productive dialogue again with him.

- I wonder if people actually can find the net and the rope, because the current way the "open the ducraer" is realized, the program doesn't inform you at all that there's something in there unless you look.

- Another description for the ball when in the sea would be good to have (realizable? could be another item?).

- I'm still not a friend of the automatic pick up-options upon examining. If I want to examine something, I don't want to pick it up, especially when I'm re-examining things the repeated question gets somewhat annoying. On the other hand it is currently not possible to "pick up" the ball, which is irritating as well of course.

- The USE command usually works the other way round... USE Net WITH Ball. But I see that you changed the program to make it fit by simply expanding the current USE command. I bit irritating though now.

- Quest Log: Hmmm... Currently this is all a replacement of the previous quest step text, which doesn't allow you to see e.g. from whom you got the quest etc.

- If you haven't picked up an unidentified item like the "blue flower" and you examine it, you get the identified name in the listbox to select.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 July 2003, 07:54:00
Some more things I found out today:

- After the short descriptions (after you re-enter a room) there should be line break as well between the text and the Exits list.

- When I talk to Ilbeth the name of the dialogue partner appears in yellow if I don't know her. Once she is known to me the name is displayed in white again. However, if I already know her and I talk again to her, the name is displayed in yellow. This seems to be Ilbeth specific.

- Is a sorting possible at the questions? Meaning: Those which are added in the last round should be always on top... Sometimes it happens that the new questions are placed on top, sometimes they are placed somewhere in the middle.

---

But in general I have to say that the game develops wonderfully. It really makes fun to discover all we've put into the game so far:D  - Great work!


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 13 July 2003, 07:30:00
1)
Quote:
At 1024x768: Journal Book doesn't resize for some reason (at least it didn't on my company computer, worked yesterday at my other one, with a higher resolution). Arrows, texts like Journal and Quests are in position, but the book background is not.


Well, the more graphics we use in the game the more difficult it will be to adjust the display for different resolutions. I think we should stick to a single resolution. This will depend on the amount of graphics that we will use.

2)
Quote:
Enter the House (Prosperous Farmhouse): Not possible with Numpad, also exiting.


Why should it be possible? Once you enter the block with the house there is no clue where the house itself is in the block. So, it is natural that there should be a free form text for that purpose as it is now.

3)
Quote:
When going staight to Ilbeth without seeing Pinn first and she asks about Pinn, the option "Yeah sure, I've even talked to him. He's at the shore, just a bit to the south." is available.


Just tell me if you mean spoken to Pinn or get to know Pinn and I will fix it.

4)
Quote:
If you talk to Terlano and at the beginning make clear that he should step aside, then Terlano quits the dialogue and you can't enter any productive dialogue again with him.


I guess this is the way the dialogue itself is built since there are no other questions added to the pool. Not my mistake unless I overlooked something.

5)
Quote:
I wonder if people actually can find the net and the rope, because the current way the "open the ducraer" is realized, the program doesn't inform you at all that there's something in there unless you look.


As you enter the room the list with Items contains the ducraer. What do you mean? And the player should first know that a ducraer is a container. The rest is a matter of knowing how to use the interface. If you want to look into the container you use the "contents" button if it is already open. What's the problem here?

6)
Quote:
Another description for the ball when in the sea would be good to have (realizable? could be another item?).


Just give the description to me.

7)
Quote:
I'm still not a friend of the automatic pick up-options upon examining. If I want to examine something, I don't want to pick it up, especially when I'm re-examining things the repeated question gets somewhat annoying. On the other hand it is currently not possible to "pick up" the ball, which is irritating as well of course.


It should be irritating. Until the gamer finds the way to pick it up. When he can't pick it up while he should, the second thought would be to examine the item and get more information about it. The option then to grab it is just decoration. Besides, any item that is NOT static can be picked up. The same would happen to the ball if it was not static.

8 )
Quote:
The USE command usually works the other way round... USE Net WITH Ball. But I see that you changed the program to make it fit by simply expanding the current USE command. I bit irritating though now.


So "Use Net with Ball" is different than "Use Ball with Net? Besides, like I said, what if the user just wants to use something e.g. a lever without combining it? What should happen then? I don't find it irritating.

9)
Quote:
Quest Log: Hmmm... Currently this is all a replacement of the previous quest step text, which doesn't allow you to see e.g. from whom you got the quest etc.


We can then add additional entries, not update entries.

10)
Quote:
If you haven't picked up an unidentified item like the "blue flower" and you examine it, you get the identified name in the listbox to select.


Major issue here with other commands as well. I 'll try to fix it.

11)
Quote:
Is a sorting possible at the questions? Meaning: Those which are added in the last round should be always on top... Sometimes it happens that the new questions are placed on top, sometimes they are placed somewhere in the middle.


Currently it is not possible.You call it a question POOL not a question STACK anyway.

12 ) The rat you sent me is OK but the spider is still too dark. I had used the Auto-balance feature of the Photo-Editor before and I thought they were fine.

13 ) What 's going on with the recipe book? How will the player be able to look into it for recipies?  

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 13 July 2003, 11:43:00
1) Resolution: Well, sure, I don't refer to a higher resolution here, but to the standard one (I guess 1024x768 is standard, and if there are higher resolution you should limit the screen size maybe to 1024x768 ) . And it doesn't work for some reason at this standard resolution. Can it be that your resizing function fails if a vertical toolbar is displayed to the right of the screen and 1024x768 isn't recognized?

2) Hmmm... Yeah, you can interpret it this way as well. How about using "5" on the numpad for "enter" or "leave" then, and "+" and "-" for "up" and "down"? This way it is ensured that you can walk through the game with the numpad alone.

3) This refers to known, cause as long as you don't know Pinn's name you actually have no idea if he's the right one.

4) This is handled differently at my Dialogue Editor. As long as you don't know the guy, quit, and get back to him again, you start with the unknown keyword again, so the problem can't happen.

5) Yeah, that's exactly the problem. People don't realize that it's a container. Especially as it is not a container you can open & close, know what I mean (people would see it much easier if it was chest what to do)? We should think about a way to show the player immediately that there is something in the container when examining an open container and what there is in it, e.g. giving him the option immediately when the player looks at it to check the contents.

6) Will do.

7) Typical example of player annoyance: Player wants to pick up ball, Pinn says no. Player then examines ball: Again is confronted with the question to pick up ball. Tries again of course (cause now the program reacts differently by showing the player an option, so maybe player can pick up ball now). Pinn again says no. Player questions himself what's this for.

8 )  Well, "Use door with key" is strange, "use key on door" is logical. Let me know a game where you actually have the first case realized this way.

"Use lever" (with no addition) is of course also possible, cause you don't need to combine things. These are just two different usage-possibilities.

But if it's too complicated to change that, I can live with that as a programmer. Players might have a problem, though, to understand what they need to do how.

9) Ok.

10) Ok.

11) Nothing serious, though, at the moment.

12) Propose to adjust you monitor settings, Humangus! It appears they are way too dark, check out this example. At 1.4 you should see the wall perfectly. If you have Photoshop installed, you can calibarte your monitor with it correctly, maybe other paint programs can do that as well. Especially Santharian artists have to take care of these settings to get colors right, and as I've calibrated my monitor correctly, I assume you're too much on the darker side.

13) Suggest USE BOOK will do. Then the text starting from at("Upon expecting the book more closely you see that there are some bookmarks to the most often used recipes. You may want to take a look at any of these recipes:") should be displayed.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/12/03 19:44


Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 July 2003, 13:56:00
Hey,I used windows and a dell :rolleyes

Some of my comments may be the same as Artimidors,I just played it through and wrote down, what I found.

Is there a note I can read? (First Quest)
Map isn't showing,should it?
River Name
Coming from the south,I talked to Pinn,but not about his ball.So I should not know,that it is Pinns when examine it.
We could add to the Andulf dialog under the point "Ask about" the keywords Pinn, and maybe Ilbeth,if Andulf tells the player, to whom Pinn belongs. If the player haven't met Pinn yet,he will not ask.
I think it is a bit strange, that you can enter Andulf's house without asking him or his wife. Maybe we could ask him for allowance to enter it to get a mug of water and then the possibility appears to enter the house?Or you change the dialog so that Meghrim is in the house and gives you the water(short dialog)
The first rooms of the path to the tomb give still a direction "runs to the west", "and east to Nepris" is missing.

Path/Meadow to the tomb:
Meadow south,item blue flower: EXAMINE: Cerubell flower appears, should be still blue flower,as long as the player hasn't got the info from the herbwoman. Clicking on Cerubell flower, nothing appears.
Same with meadow north with yellow flower and lavender flower. It looks not good,that yellow flowers appears already in the text twice, should only be visible if clicking EXAMINE.
Lampstalk meadow: The name should not appear in the first text, not in EXAMINE now either
Snake meadow ..easescathe shouldn't be named here as well, not before a stay with the herbwoman
No roomdescription when following the snake to the forest (Room?)


Hmm, what about a hint,that there is something in the Ducraer? I wouldn't have looked for a content,if I haven't known that there is something.Not every player is experienced!

When entering the farmhouse again and Pinn sits at the table eating, the TALK option still tells me, he is playing with his toy.
(Hmm,have I missed a update,where is the cookerybook or was it just a proposal to put it somewhere?)
Can I add another char if I have started already with playing?

+runs back to her Mac+

***Astropic of the day***



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 July 2003, 13:40:00
- Yes, there is a note you can read, just check your inventory, Talia!

- Map: not map there yet:b

- River name: changed in next version to "Toran's Creek"

- Yes, got a point here with Pinn's Ball. Will change that.

- Yes, quest-related questions will be added at other characters as well. As the player can't ask everybody about everything, we'll have to limit it a bit, but if possible we'll see that you get support of other NPCs at various quests whereever we can.

- Andulf just stands around in an undeveloped area... He'll be inside the house, I assume. But we have to ensure that you can move wherever you want to, nobody will object if you go straight into someone's bedroom e.g. It's a game, and we can't be 100% realistic.

- Yeah, there are some identification problems, indeed. Humangus is aware of that already.

- Yeah, the Pinn description needs to be adjusted. Will take care of that as well.

- Cookery book in preparation for next version. No cookery book yet in the current version.

- No, you can't add a char during the game... What for, BTW? There's aren't even monsters in yet of which you can be afraid... Feeling lonely? :lol

But during the game you will have the opportunity to ask people to accompany you on quests, and some will actually join you and support you in the game:)  


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 16 July 2003, 10:01:00
@Talia: Artimidor has covered me 100%. We should not add too many details. This is for dialogues as well. "We can't be 100% realistic"

- Alright. I can calibrate my monitor but we can't actually ask the players to correctly callibrate their monitors as well before playing. So I still suggest that it is better that the images are a bit brighter to cover all situations than darker which will result in missing information. So we are sure that images will show all details in every monitor adjustment.

- What is a ducraer anyway? :   I thought it was something like a chest. And what do you suggest for the contents.

-Pick up message adjusted. Now it is first handled by the location. So there will be non-static items that you will not be able to pick up but in the next release.

- A lever and a door are in location. The player carries a key in the backpack. Presses the Use button. What should the list contain in order to cover all situations as you imagine it?

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 16 July 2003, 12:27:00
Calibration: Sure, you in general won't have that brightness problem, the rat and the spider pic were both taken from a larger, very dark picture where they played a minor role and adjustments were necessary. Just don't overdue the adjustments, so that the pic looks unreal.

Ducraer: Ah yes, we definitely have to take care of such cases when we use Santharian expressions which the player's won't understand immediately. Therefore I also corrected the kuatu to "kuatu squirrel", thus players will get the idea. A ducraer is a small boat BTW.

Use: Well, to make the difference between the two kinds of "use" possibilities explicit in the form of 2 different buttons would make it very transparent if you ask me. Graphical games which show the inventory and the gaming area on one screen (like for example Ultima VI + VII) don't have that problem, cause you can click first on the game screen, or first at the inventory item  and it is clear whether you want to press a lever or use the key on the door.

In mainly textbased games I've seen it therefore often realized with two different buttons cause you lack the graphical reference where you can immediately go at the graphic and the game interprets what you want. In textbased games it's mainly "Use" and "Operate". You "Use a key to open a door" and you then "Operate" the door to open it. One button with two functions may be confusing if they are not obvious immediately.


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World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 19 July 2003, 02:49:00
About the updates you sent me.

1 ) Has the quest changed so that the ball is not accessible before getting the quest? I don't think this is necessary. We can just change Pinn's Ball to Ball as well.

2 ) I don't see it necessary to update Andulf's Dialogue. This is a village. Everybody knows each other. What will happen when there are 30 NPC's. Will the player be able to ask about each of the villagers to everyone? Huge mess.

3 ) About the kitchen. When you exit the room Pinn goes to his bedroom? Is this the update? Will this happen even if you have not spoken to Ilbeth?

4 ) Gif images cannot be displayed in the Image control I'm using. So you must send me either jpg or bmp images.

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 19 July 2003, 07:32:00
1) No, the quest hasn't changed. I mainly wanted to avoid problems, which also happen in commercial products: That the player solves a quest without actually getting the quest. E.g. you could bring the ball to Pinn without having talked to him at all. I don't know if LT would handle the situation correctly, but in order to be on the safe side, I changed this part. Also I think that this forces the player to actually search the ball - cause he just can't find the ball right from the start, and the player actually needs to re-visit the location. It's much more fun to discover something somewhere which wasn't there at the beginning. Adds "life" to the story.

2) Sure. Never planned to have more people except Andulf and his wife who could answer any questions about Pinn. Reason to have these two, though: Ilbeth said Pinn can be found in the south, and as Andulf's house is the only one which lies south as well, I guess it's ok to add the option to ask him about Pinn.

3) Uhmm... Yes, that's it. Pinn is just decoration if you return with the quest done, and his only function is to sit there. As soon as you have been in the room seeing him sit there, he needs to be off asap, cause he can't eat for the rest of the game. So get him into his room as soon as you can.

However, small correction: Suggest to put

Exit Room [While Quest_1_6 or Quest_1_7 is active]
[Move Pinn to Room 57_05]

into room 57 instead not in 57-01, otherwise you might go from the kitchen to Pinn's room and he has suddenly materialized without passing you by...

4) GIFs: Ok, not much of a  problem. Will add wood background and a nice drop shadow effect to such pics, this makes them even more effective.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 19 July 2003, 11:09:00
1 ) It is fun but it makes this quest almost impossible to solve. Believe me that this is a very difficult quest from the point of the player. He has to use an item found in one of 400 locations without any clue. The ball is in a location not directly north from where Pinn is at the moment so the player must also do some turns. He has to revisit a location although he will know that he has not encountered anything making it more difficult to visit that location again. All these things make this quest very difficult.

Besides, I have already handled this situation. If you first get the ball and you go talk to him the dialogue goes normally until he tells you about the ball. Then you get the option to offer the ball to him immediately (if the ball is already found in the backpack. )

So I don't think any more changes are necessary except for the description of the ball and the name.

Perhaps the ball and Pinn should be at the same location and the net at some place nearer. This will make this quest easier.

2 ) But as you move north from south you can't miss Pinn. Anyway, it is not difficult to add this option which should not be present if you have met Pinn I suppose.

3 ) We get into too much "thinking" here which is not good. It will make things much complex. Pinn can't eat all the time, Ilbeth can't cook all the time, fishermen can't fish all the time ... We should not be concerned with these details. These are just decorations.

And the other option not to let Pinn bump into your back while going to his bedroom is again too much.

Perhaps we can move Pinn as soon as the player enters the kitchen. Then Pinn finishes eating and goes to his room. Besides there is some time until you get to the farmhouse since you tell Pinn to go home.

4 ) Great.

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 July 2003, 09:53:00
1) Well, in a role playing game most objects usually can't be found only once in the game, but in dozens. And fishing nets will be one of those items you will find in nearly every house in this game which happens to take place in a fishing village.

The placement of the ball in the water right from the start takes away the searching fun and the "Aha! - I've found it!"-experience. With other words: It's boring. A living environment is always preferable over a static one.

Pinn BTW tells you precisely that it's north, and it is north. I don't think that any player will have problems finding it. Playing means at least a bit of thinking.

The quest also is not yet playtested. Adjustments of too difficult quests can still be made, but I personally think that it absolutely would suffice if the player talks to Pinn again and at the second time Pinn is more precise where the ball can be found and maybe give hints at a net or something. If the player is desperate he'll usually does 2 things: a) search the environement, try things again several times (You get the message: "You can't reach it with your hands alone..." or something = hint!) and b) Talk again to the person who handed out the quest. And c) We can write an additional hint in the quest log. I think there are a lot of possibilities to make difficult quests easier by simply adding a line here or there.

Walking through the game completely without at least a bit of necessary thinking in my point of view is not desireable. Placing the items right in front of the nose of the player neither. The more twists and turns a single quest can offer (without a high general difficulty and the possibility to get hints from asking again and investigating the environment just a bit), the more fun.

3) I guess it is important to move some characters around a bit. This doesn't have much of complexity. If you plan it right from the start, you only have to take care of that the descriptions of the characters and the repeatable dialogue parts aren't place-specific, and that's it. Then you can shove people around with the engine, and the player will feel to see a good old friend again when the character is met again somewhere else.

I personally see only advantages in the Pinn movements, especially if you move him once you're outside the house. Cause for quest number 2 you will have to go in and out of the house several times (Ilbeth's husband works at the outside). So if you do the Pinn quest first it (likely, as you have met him already) is also likely to encounter him again in the trapdoor room later, cause you need to deal with the rats.  If you talk to him then you're rewarded with another little quest, the Fetch-Ship quest. As you can see Pinn has a life on his own already if he has three different defined locations, and this is an important detail for a believeable world.

I think it's pretty easy to realize these things through script as well, BTW, so why not do them?

BTW: I heard you've graduated by now, Humangus, so congratulations from me again here officially on the board:D  Good that graduated Software Engineers also do something really useful like coding LT engines:lol

I also read at your last mail that another version will be coming soon, so I'll see if I can quench in some more Talia-rooms and send them to you in time;)  


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/21/03 17:56


Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 22 July 2003, 14:50:00
Humangus, I agree with Art, don't make it too easy. The game isn't this big yet  for not being able to look for a net. However for an unexperienced player like I am, a hint, that you can actually look into something (ducraer)is helpful (not a must though).
I know you miss the fights, but see it as an enhancement (?) of the game if they are coming later.

***Astropic of the day***



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 23 July 2003, 02:47:00
Quote:
Good that graduated Software Engineers also do something really useful like coding LT engines


What?

www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Humangus on 23 July 2003, 02:51:00
Quote:
Good that graduated Software Engineers also do something really useful like coding LT engines


What is this?

www.legendarytales.com



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 23 July 2003, 03:31:00
Hey, that was just a joke!

I think it's a much bigger step towards the future of mankind to develop good games instead of boring applications like e.g. the sales management systems I'm coding myself;)  


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/22/03 11:32


Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Faugar on 23 July 2003, 15:18:00
"I think it's a much bigger step towards the future of mankind to develop good games instead of boring applications like e.g. the sales management systems I'm coding myself"


hear, hear!! hehe... yeah... I really admire you Art. really. I had my first day in the office today, and after having spent 7 hours sitting in from of that damn pc, and with the prospect of having to start learning Labview to pragram some GUI and the rest of some program, I'm really starting to appreciate your project even more. You have some superhuman powers though, probably.... dont you? ;)

if you wonder what i'm doing in the office programming GUI's - I just started my practical training period, which is part of my study. and now I have to find a 3d rendering engine, preferably in a form of some dll, program an interface around it and make this whole thing animate a model of a human, according to some data, that is being fed to it in real time, of movements of the body of a subject human.... bearing in mind that I never have worked in 3d, or used programming languages tougher then pascal, I admit I'm a bit worried about my possible failure.... *gulp*
plus it's summer, and half of the staff is (going) on vacation,...
at least its good to know you folks arent :D  form what I hear Koldar is burried in work as well... good luck man!


       
     
 Only         when you awake, will you know you fell asleep..          
   



Title: Re: Pinn Quest in progress
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 24 July 2003, 12:53:00
Well, fortunately Humangus covers the programming side excellently, and I'm currently mainly game designer and organizer of the whole thing;)  It all takes time and requires some sacrifices on other dev things from my side, but we only have till November when Humangus' military service will start. We should get as far as possibile till then. But your wonderful pictures help a lot to get on with the project:D  And yeah, managing updates on the site (plus special things like the cookery book) as well plus having a fulltime job indeed requires a bit of superhuman powers I guess... :lol

The project you have to do sounds interesting as well, Faugar, though I have no idea what Labview actually is... Hope some guys there can help you a bit. Nobody is perfect when you start with programming, it all lasts a while to understand what a language can do and what not - and also finding out who can help you when and where;)  


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World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...