Santharian Development

Santharian Game Projects => General Game Discussions & Newbie Area => Topic started by: Xenos Ravenbeack on 12 July 2001, 23:59:00

Title: skill sets
Post by: Xenos Ravenbeack on 12 July 2001, 23:59:00
OKay I had this idea while playing startcraft...

normally in RPGS we're forced to use char classes... which although nice restrict the charecter originality and such...

however I have a better idea here we go...

the player first selects his race(orc/elf/human/browwnii)

then selects his nationality(R'unorian, santharian, etc.)

player sets eye/hair/skin color, gender, body type, hair lenth etc.(those available determined by the first two steps above to an extent)

then he selects there skill sets*

Picks a few bits starting equipment

starts the game
* ahhh yes skillsets... the jewl in my idea

okay here it goes. the player gets xps but no levels(xps should be gotten by time playing not killing stuff IMO) instead the xps are used to "buy" available skills that work in a sort of tech tree.

the sets themselves are the just that.. sets of skills that can be gained, to have a new skill you have to have its preequisits. most of the time it will be in a set such as you need to have a traking skill and a silent movement skill to get a camofalge skill... although some realy special skills need stuff from two diffrent sets lets say you have a stunning neck pinch skill from an unarmed combat set and an ice magic type set skill.. like a cold-orb or somthing... if you have both you could be alowed to get a skill that alows you to touch an enimy and freez him... if not killing him imideatly at least immobalizing him

just an idea

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Torek Ozzot on 13 July 2001, 08:36:00
Hey, that's a good idea. Its Kinda like in fft (Final Fantasy Tactics) but you should break down the different areas that the skills are in. Like you would gain exp. in combat for fighting, magic skills by reading tomes and using spells. You could take it really far and break things down even by making divisions within the division. Like in combat, you could have unarmed, and then all kinds of skills in unarmed, and sword, then all kinds of sword skills. That would be hard to do, but real cool if you pulled it off.

The Tec tree would like this I guess

                                           I----unarmed&Sword combo
                                            I---Sword&axe combo

The only thing is how far you take the skills? How many types of skills can you have? I still like the idea though...

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Greybark on 13 July 2001, 21:09:00
Age of Empires does this fairly well too, I guess......

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Xenos Ravenbeack on 14 July 2001, 00:06:00
Okay there could be 5 set catagories





Misc Rp related skills(singing cooking etc.)

Combat and misc will be manitory catagories(you have to select a skill set from them)

now anyone can swing a sword around but skills could get you advanced moves and better damage. also cool unarmed stuff

now lets use combat as an example three sets in combat might be


Unarmed Martial Disiplin


Thrown Weapons


And for magic we might have things like this


Wind Magic

Fire Magic

Water Magic

Earth Magic

Life Magic

Death Magic

Ice/Cold Magic



now lets say you had Ice magic and alchemy Sets, also you had throw weapons and improvational weapons. using a skill requiring A spell in the Ice set, like toch of frost and a sikil in alchemy that lets you make an explosive you can get a skill called cold bomb. noy once you make such a grenade you could youse a skill in thrown weapons and a skill in improvational wepons lets you get a skill to throw objects in your inventory at people/monsters now then you could use that skill to throw you cold Bomb and poof. there you have it

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Greybark on 14 July 2001, 02:38:00
2 suggestions:

We should probably ask Nate what he thinks.

What about also having race-specific skills? Things learned easily by a certain race, but learned  with great difficulty, if at all, by others. (IMO life magic should be in this category)

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 14 July 2001, 06:16:00
I have thought about this quite a bit.  I'm a bit scared of races in the frist version.  I'm going to design the game using a 3 tier architecture.


The userinterface is the program that you actually use to play the game.  I plan on making a different user interface for each race.  So it will be similar to a different game.

but since the processinglogic is stored on another set of servers that part and the datastore won't have to be recreated.

I don't want a hack and slash game.  Or I want to design pieces of the game that attracts the hack and slash players to the same area.  Therefore I don't think it's a good idea to make any skill sets mandatory.  That includes combat ones.

I think that when a player is created they should be able to choose 3 skills that they will be able to learn at 2 times the normal rate, but all skills will still be learnable.  The class will not determine what they are good at.  Their best skills will determine their class so their class can change.

I like how UO handles increasing skills through using that particular skill.  With a few changes of course to prevent the uo macro issue.

Each skill has a max level which increases with practice.  The actual skill level decreases with use and increases over time to reach the max.  Chance of max skill level increase is modified by the actual skill level.

I think this would give players who use their skills naturally while playing a better increase and make macroing useless.

Any thoughts are welcome.  The above is how I vision it heading but it's definately not set in stone.

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 July 2001, 12:16:00
Different interfaces for different races sounds fine (liked that very much in "Starcraft"). But of course you can't do everything at once.

So you will not determine from the beginning if you're a fighter or a mage etc.? Sounds good this way, gives the player much more possibilities. Always liked those open RPGs.

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Kanga on 14 July 2001, 13:00:00
well opening for all skills will be a nightmare figuring out which that is worth it and which that isnt, lets say that you open up for different areas of fighting/magic/common, lets say that each player have to pic one domain within each of these 3 areas, lets say Fx

Fighting :
Sword & Shield - or whatever that is common in uderza
Oriental - katana`s etc
Archery - bows etc
more to come

Magic :
Wind/Air Magic
Fire Magic
Water/Ice Magic
Earth Magic

Royal - recognice different weaponshields etc
Academic - bookbinding etc
Peasentry - farming etc
more to come

now im just a new player making myself a char and i decide to go with Oriental + Xeuá-Magic+ Royal, then it would be quite easy to create a background story based on those choices, it would be close to impossible to random develop a background for a player if he has access to all skills, the RPG element in making that common choice would be good to any player as well, like he can feel what kind of char he has made now instead of just a startout char that everyone gets, it opens up possibility for the experienced player as well as the n00bi.

besides the 3 choices that he can make there is a basic survival area where he cant pick anything but has been given all the neccessary skills to survive (cooking, fire building etc)

it would be easy to incorporate some kind of skill tree and perhaps with goodwill of an GM it might be possible to get rid of 1 domain and get another or perhaps its possible to buy a Clearance in the temple? (only letting the common area be there after all you cant change your birth without creating a new char, but you can change the way you fight and the type of magic you cast) any lost xp in a area could be regained by regaining it through the standard way (my guess is that we will have to put some kind of a max on the xp as UO has done on their stats)

althrough it would definitly look as a ripoff to Diablo2 hehe but so would Xp thingy ;=)  

Edited by: Kanga at: 7/14/01 12:53:55 pm

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 15 July 2001, 00:30:00
Just a short correction: We will have magics of all four elemental kinds, but instead of Life/Death Magic this type of Magic should be called Xeuá-Magic. This is the spiritual magic, the so-called "Connecting Principle", thus also connecting especially Life and Death. Just had to point that out in order to stick to already elaborated Santharian principles.

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Greybark on 15 July 2001, 01:49:00 opposed to the Life Magic used by brownies, which borrows a bit from the other schools, and is unique in that it doesn't drain the user.....

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 19 July 2001, 15:18:00
Science skill set doesn't exactly make sense. Here's how I see it.

Magic (Obvious)
Combat (Swordsmanship, etc.)
Survival (tracking, fire-building, edible plants, etc.)
Entertainment (Singing, instrument-playing, gymnastics, etc)
Knowledge (Languages, flags, geography, etc.)
Labor (Harvesting, cleaning, etc.)
Thieves (Pickpocketing, lockpicking, climbing, etc.)
Other (Things that don't exactly fit into any category)
And others that I can't think of at the time.
Also, some things might fit into more than one category.
e.g edible plants requires knowlege as well.

If there is a limit on skills, it should be very high, or be linked to other stats.


Psychotic Wizard-Type

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 July 2001, 11:36:00
I also propose an "Ancient Lore" skill. The higher, the easier one can identify artifacts. This skill may also help e.g. to lead a powerful sword even better and make more damage with it.

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 20 July 2001, 13:11:00
Ah, so you say when you see some old relic laying in a dragon cave, "Oh! I need that, its a sword that'll make my attacks twice as powerful!" Instead of, "What the heck is that? Oh well, I'll just leave it: it looks rusty anyway."

Good idea, Art.


Psychotic Wizard-Type

Title: Re: skill sets
Post by: Langston B Hummings on 22 July 2001, 01:37:00
Skills increase over time if successful use.  but at the same rate.. so that a macro-er who successfully uses a skill 10 times per (delta time) gains at the same rate as the person who uses the skill legitimately 1 time per (delta time).  Therefore skill increase will directly relate to time in game but one would still only be gaining skill if he actually used it.. A secondary modifier to increase  chance of skill gain should be the base scores of the prerequisite skills as well as the prerequisite abilities.

Title: a couple thoughts.
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 30 July 2001, 07:59:00
With skillsets I like the idea of flexability.  Some skills may be easier then others for some classes.  But the class is determined by the skill.  The skills need to be determined by the players behavior.

Functionally maybe something like this...

Creating a gain table that might look something like this...

heroID, statID, UsedCounter

1, 1, 10
1, 2, 12
1, 3, 7
2, 1, 9
2, 3, 10

Then at the end of say 1 hour. we can have it find the top 2 used stats of all players currently on.  And then execute a formula on them for stat gain.

maybe like (statmax-statvalue)/10000=statgain

delete all stat records from the gains table where the player isn't currently on.

Title: Re: a couple thoughts.
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 31 July 2001, 10:00:00
No one starts out as a class. I think that they should have to work towards it, and have successful tries at being one. A wanna-be theif would have to do some theiving to qualify as a true theif, as well as hone the skills needed to be one. Of course, people would get to choose one or two skills to start out with. It wouldn't make sense for a bunch of skill-less slugs to come out. At least let them start out with some sword-fighting skill, or some lock-picking skill.


Psychotic Wizard-Type

Title: yup
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 02 August 2001, 06:23:00
That's exactly the idea.  I have thought about a great many other things when brainstorming ideas over the last few years.  rpg characters all seem to be adults.  Would be fun to have children.  Under the care of adults of course.  Just a few thoughts.  I actually wrote up quite a bit about this idea.  But it will remain just an idea for a few years.  Need to have a game before improving every little section of it.

Title: Hmmmm...
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 02 August 2001, 19:47:00
"Little Annie sneaks up behind the big hairy troll and gives him a big whack between the shoulder blades with her prcelain doll, which remarkably survives the impact. The older members of the band look in amazement, as newfound respect appears in their eyes.":lol :lol :lol  


Psychotic Wizard-Type

Title: Re: Hmmmm...
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 03 August 2001, 14:35:00
Hey! Hallo again!

This idea reminds me about an old RPG-game named "Darklands". It played in medieval Germany and had an interesting approach on skill increasing and age.

You started as a boy/girl with fifteen years and could then choose wether to learn a certain profession and gain skills (which made you five years older) or just start playing.
So you could increase your skills as high as you wanted, the negative part was that with increasing age the stats of the character were decreasing and so he got weaker and weaker the older you chose him to be.

Something similar would be interesting for the charactergeneration, too. You can start as a boy, as a trained warrior or old veteran, the critical part about it would be to balance the whole thing so older characters are not automatically more powerful.

BTW: Are Sorren-heroes supposed to die? IT would be interesting, also it would have some negative for the players, too, when players have to watch their glorious hero dying of an heart attack in their early eighties! ;)  But it might be also a tool to prevent immortal heroes when players are forced to restart with a 'new' character. Retirement would be an interesting feature, too...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: Everlasting life
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 09 August 2001, 13:36:00
I think to make characters be able to die it should take years (real life) and there should be ways to prevent it.

Maybe a potion made from rare eggs found in the catacombs.  (catacomb eggs are from a mud called medievia)

By the way I kind of remember darklands.  The version I am thinking of was one of those shareware copies about 5 years ago.  I don't remember the youth stuff but that's cool.

Title: Re: Everlasting life
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 14 August 2001, 09:14:00
Koldar mentioned character generization as life. This sounds very interesting. Say you start out as a baby, with specific parents. (Do you get to choose your features?) Then you choose whether you are orphaned or cared for, how much training you get in your younger years, what skills you learn, and whether you start a job. You can also choose to have scars or something from a fight in your youth. Of course someone would be watching to make sure that you didn't make yourself too powerful. This would make sure that everyone was unique. And if the person automatically aged while you were choosing things, that would make it harder. You would need to choose certain things at certain times for them to work. You couldn't think too much about it while you were generating the character. (You could even wait for a long time and come into the game as a white haired old geezer; vertaeran of many battles.) Also, your life determines your starting position. You are born in a place that you cannot choose, but when you figure out what direction your life takes, you can move.
Finally, just click on the "begin" button to start the game and be finished with generation.

One last thing that I would like to know, for now. Will we have conversations possible? In some games they have mapped converstions with choices after every line. Or we could just have a person choose a general conversation length and politeness level, then not hear the words. (For example you could be very rude and threatening and have a short conversation jsut to pick a fight. Or you could be very polite to put them off their guard, then kill them.) Te third option could be no restraint conversation. This would be more difficult, as you would have to either talk to another player, or have a person assigned to talk with the player from behind the scenes.


Psychotic Wizard-Type

Title: Re: Everlasting life
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 August 2001, 13:25:00
Well, we definitely should have conversations! I personally think that a role playing game should more resemble a gigantic ICQ room than a big fighting arena. I've always liked those epic adventures like "Ultima" and "Ultima Underworld", but I only though "Diablo" is lovely, but nothing which can interest me more than 7 days...

Methinks especially that the game will be more text than fighting in the beginning, cause collision-checking etc. will be difficult parts of programming, but that's just what I personally guess...

Title: Re: Everlasting life
Post by: Gean Firefeet on 16 August 2001, 02:43:00
Maybe there's a difference between player-player interaction and player-gamecharacter. Off course chatting should be possible, but I can't imagine you'll be able to 'chat' with a gamecharacter. This would give occassions like good ol' LS Larry:
'Pick up sword'
What's a pick?
'Grab sword'
What's a grab?
'Take sword'
*The cleric gives you his sword*

Title: Re: Everlasting life
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 16 August 2001, 07:07:00
I personally would favour a multiple-choice talk-system when speaking to NPCs (non playing-characters). Through (pre-defined, coming from a database) NPC discussions you would learn most things about the background of the lands. Certain events could trigger new discussion threads, just like in single-player RPGs. I've once written such a talk-system in Visual Basic meant for a single-player RPG working with an Access database, mayhaps this would even be applicaple in some way. Best thing on it is that it has a nice and rather easy-to-use treeview-editor for entering the data and you can test everything at once.

Title: 0] skill sets good thinking? 0]
Post by: tell me when it is done on 19 August 2001, 21:48:00
>D  You all,Xenos Ravenbeack Torek Ozzot Greybark Nate of Sorren Artimidor Federkiel Kanga SmurfStormcrow Langston B Hummings Koldar Mondrakken Gean Firefeet,had good idles and i now that i am on this and not just reading i think i can help!The frist 1 had an idea when he was on starcraft which brote me to thinking abut a other blizzard game Diablo and Diablo II because of selecting your race or,group to me,which is a every go think to do,i should no i am a game tester,and for skills you should have 1 type that whould work best with that race.and i am not talking about the frist V. i am talking a bout the 2nd or the way to find me or contact me by e-mail jake_nelson88@hotmail .com or aim tomfox2007. there i wrote something and I am happy now to add not just read!?!?>D