Santharian Development

Santharian Game Projects => General Game Discussions & Newbie Area => Topic started by: Nate of Sorren on 25 June 2001, 14:27:00

Title: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 25 June 2001, 14:27:00
I have been discussing with Artimidor the idea of Santharian and Sorren working together to better the development of both.

Santharia has a nice history, and creative resources amongst other things.  But is limited in it's ability for people to live in the world.

Sorren has an addicting online environment with thousands of active players.  But the land doesn't have a history.

When I had originally started to work on sorren it was to be a fantasy world.  A planet to itself.  I have continually made progress towards building this world.

Artimidor has a similar dream his work can be seen in

There isn't a human tongue name for his world.  Artimidor and I have discussed making that name Sorren.  The Lands of Sorren is a strategy/simulation game playable for free at  The Hero's of Sorren will be a 3d interactive world using directX in which players can use their Hero's to explore the town, battle, improve skills, and interact with one another.

Wouldn't it be nice if the history, background, beasts, calendar, and much more fitted with Santhoria.

Before we go about making the ties needed to bring the two together we are both asking players and fans for their input.

Please reply so that we know your input.

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Faugar on 25 June 2001, 16:12:00
sounds great to me! a true roleplay game, with 3d characters and ppl from around the world, set in the santhariam dream world, and free? fabulous idea!

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 25 June 2001, 16:28:00
To be honest, when I saw that Sorren is yet another "Utopia-like" Fantasy strategy game I was against it as I feared that the "World of Sorren" was not a very unique idea and that a strategy game not really fits to the Santharian Dream (we have a very fixed political and geographical landscape, you know:) ), but when you want to make a free RPG with Santharia as the playground I'm for it!

At least when we find a decent mix of Playerkillers and those preventing Playerkilling! I hate getting my hero wipped out just because I was watching birds! ;)

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Dala Valannia on 25 June 2001, 22:57:00
If it doesn't involve too much of internal change within Santharia, I don't see why not :)  The only objection I have, if applicable, about the integration of a RPG and Santharia is that I DO NOT wish to see role-players taking on characters that I created especially for Santharia as their personas without my permission. I think I mentioned this before in a previous thread, but no harm stating it again ;)  

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Faugar on 26 June 2001, 09:07:00
to put it in Homer Simpson words: "do I have to do anything? no? then go ahead" :lol  

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Gean Firefeet on 26 June 2001, 12:50:00
I'll have to agree that the persona's we created in history would not return in the game as player characters, although I guess there may be possibilities that moderators take the role of NPC's to influence the course of the game, as is done in other MUDS.

The only problem I see is when this world is made into a game, it might be difficult to change things if we don't like certain developements of the world we wrote. After all, it's then already fitted into a game and the whole game had to restart if we'd make huge changes in history/appearances/anything.

On the other hand, it would give Santharia some welldeserved attention. I just don't hope this plays gets spoiled by thousands of players wanting to help in worlddesign, it just wouldn't go right...

But if you make us mods within the game, I'm all for it ;)

edit: I just read through your post again and went to the site, a question popped up: What you have at your site now is a strategy game like many others, though it has a better outlook then most I played. If I understand you right you're going to develope another game that works with directX and is instead a 3d adventure game?

Edited by: Gean Firefeet at: 6/25/01 8:20:23 pm

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 26 June 2001, 12:56:00
It might be interesting. And, if a person wants to use their own character that they created for Santharia in the RPG, that would make it much more fun. Like integrating actual Santharian people into the RPG.  But you'd have to be quite strict at keeping to their character...

Also, I'd like to know how Sorren relates to the elements? Would it just be a separate name with no relation, or with a true meaning behind it? Finally, would original characters from the RPG work their way into Santharia? Would we use people's actual RPG characters as real Santharian people?

I'm a tentative yes.


Psychotic Wizard-Type

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 26 June 2001, 14:20:00
Well, I guess we should keep in mind that it's a game, and the game has its own rules, so it is to be expected that many Santharian details might get lost. But that's natural. Keep in mind it's just a game.

Concerning the 3D role playing thing - Nate has something in mind realized through an "online 3D" engine you can experience at e.g. (see the racing game). But this is a project which won't be realized too soon.

The next project would be something which you could see as "Strategy meets RPG with Santharian ideas" and will be based mainly on the current Sorren game engine, as far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong, Nate!

Nate will incude links to Santharia on his site sooner or later in order to attract some attention on Santharian matters in his game world and we'll then see how people like the idea of joining the projects in a way. I think we won't received thousands of world developpers, but a few more couldn't be wrong:)  

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Greybark on 26 June 2001, 21:11:00
The tide seems to be coming in, whether or not we are ready for it, as it has before. The only way I can see to protect our sandcastle, is to include a line or two of whatever, stating that "The world of the Soren RPG is BASED ON the Santharian Dream by Artimidor and team". Anything else and I fear that our beautiful castle will be washed away........

Title: hmmmmmm
Post by: Torek Ozzot on 28 June 2001, 11:43:00
It sounds really cool, but I gotta side with Greybark on this one. If we don't draw some lines, or make a few distinctions, we might be lost to the mob. Also I think that it's more then fair to ask that no one gets to play as people that we have already made. I think it would make more sense if people that we have made for Santeria are made into NPC's in the 3d world, that way no one can mess around with them. And I, personally, would love to see some of my mari's chowin' down on would-be heroes hehehehe.

Title: Re: hmmmmmm
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 28 June 2001, 15:41:00
On the other hand I also see the advantage of giving Santharia a certain direction, e.g. developing those things first which are necessary to make a world inhabitable for role players of every kind, e.g. finish the most necessary maps, a definite calendar system, a measure system, the Gods etc. All things we require for the development of the world too.

Jumping into a cooperation with a game system may perhaps lead to an unwanted washing away of the Santharian sandcastle, but I guess we can also profit from it in many aspects which will help us to build a Dream on more solid rock.

Title: Re: hmmmmmm
Post by: Dala Valannia on 29 June 2001, 01:39:00
While I understand what you're saying, Art, about the advantages of integration with a game system and the prospect of more members, I'm still a little wary of the consequences. I guess I kinda develop an exclusive mentality regarding Santharia! I really feel that being a Santharian person is special and while the member list is quite small, it helps to engender a tight-knit community where everyone clicks well together. Sort of like a small town where everyone knows everybody's quirks and habits :)  Plus previously, Santharian has had quite a few people who walked in enthusiastically, afired with zeal, only to contribute a few things and then disappear quite abruptly. I don't like that at all, I might add :(  But at least so far, the influx of such members is still small and controllable but with a sudden wave of wanna-be members through the RPG games, things might just become plain messy, with people who doesn't really get the concepts and ideas behind Santharia but just like the idea of a fantasy world and start contributing contradicting entries cause they never bother to read about the existing foundations and when they find out they can't just re-write the elven history to their liking, they give up and move along. And we end up with an ever growing list of 'dead' members. Somehow, I don't think that's fair to members who have been consistently loyal, so as to speak, to Santharia and really make efforts to stay and help create a world.

I know you stated that it's just a game and maybe the whole joining thing won't go through.
Of course, the whole idea of Santharia belongs to you, Art, being the originator and creator so if you really want to go ahead with the merger ( shades of corporate takeovers! :lol  ), I'll respect your decision 100% and give you my support. But just hope you can perhaps give us, those who still have some misgivings, some assurances that even if Santharia were to become Sorren/Santharia, a few rules and boundaries can be laid down, even if it's just a game, to preserve the essential essence of Santharia? I personally feel our foundations for the sandcastle is strong, linked as it is by all of us here at the forum who really care and is interested in the development about Santharia. The growth may be miniscule but we ARE growing. We're not stagnant at all, just slow but steady :D  And we're a team! I just realise that! Wow, I'm actually part of a team! But can we still remain as a team if the existing sandcastle is washed away to make way for a new one? It might be bigger castle but will it necessarily be a better one?

Sorry, standing on my soapbox again! Anyone who think I'm an overbearing nag, please don't hesitate to say so. I promise I won't sic my demon ducks on them! Apologies for rambling on like this... :O  

Title: Xenos Makes A stand
Post by: Xenos Ravenbeack on 29 June 2001, 08:41:00
Dala makes a very very good point, however lacking her skill with words I shall make my statement breif

in order to gain the suport of myself, as I see this as a possable threat to the dream, I have several... demands if you will... to be sent to uor little freind

1. this must be ROLE playing, not some hack'n slash 3d game, RP must be done, and thse who dont MUST be removed promptly and efficently, I will not have my creations, or arts, or dala's, or koldars, that have taken hours of our time reduced to little modles for some wanna be hero to hack up without appreicating the story behind it.

2. Applicants Must go through a short world getting used to training, so they have at least a basic idea before they start RolePlaying(see demand 1)

3. this not interfir with our creativity, I know that things such as measurement and currency are important but so are anchent heros, or varios wines, and things like that...

I have made my statement

Edited by: Xenos Ravenbeack  at: 6/28/01 3:55:31 pm

Title: Re: Xenos Makes A stand
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 29 June 2001, 12:19:00
Many thanx for your long statement, Dalá, and thanx too for your comments on the matter, Xenos!

Believe me, I can fully understand your concerns here and I guess you know by now that I'm not the person who would "sell" a good idea just in order to get some more hits to the site, neglecting the main idea completely. Santharia is also not "my" project anymore (as it had been quite a while ago), but it's ours, the achievement of a whole team. Santharia is a place for people who enjoy being part of this team and who know that their works are valued by others - and it will remain this way. I always try to welcome new members as good as I can, but also accept and respect decisions to stay away after the initial enthusiasm. Santharia has a unique philosophy, I guess, and one has to know that and to believe in it. This ensures our success as a team. Santharia is not a place to simply turn things upside and down if they're not to your liking, but a complete world where every thing has its history, meaning and destiny. Therefore: People whose intentions are otherwise will soon notice that Santharia is a world which needs depth. Only people who accept that, will stay permanently in the team.

But as I've said: We have the depth Sorren is lacking. This is a major advantage for Sorren in case of cooperation. But it could be a major disadvantage for Sorren if the game(s) of Sorren wouldn't try to use this depth in every possible respect in order to make the game as unique as Santharia. Therefore I think it to be essential for the game itself to try to reach this depth as well. If players in Sorren realize that they could develop to members like those we have now.

Title: Greybark stands behind people who are making a stand....
Post by: Greybark on 29 June 2001, 22:38:00
Just for the record, I agree completely with Dala's sentiments.

Title: Re: Greybark stands behind people who are making a stand....
Post by: Dala Valannia on 30 June 2001, 01:44:00
<<Therefore I think it to be essential for the game itself to try to reach this depth as well. If players in Sorren realize that they could develop to members like those we have now.>>
But will they realise it? If I understand you correctly, Art, what you mean by depth to be achieve in the game, is for the Sorren players to have a full understanding of Santharia? In that case, I agree totally that the best way for Santharia and Sorren to reach the highest potential together would be to make sure that players are required to have a basic knowledge of Santharia before they begin any role-playing. Which brings us back to the original problem - therefore, can we have your approval and consent, Art, since essentially you would be the point of liaison with Sorren, that at least SOME, and they won't be unreasonable of course!, ground-rules be set down if the joining takes place? And those who don't abide by them will be reviewed for banning? Sorry if I seem to be harping on this issue but your previous post was a little ambiguous to me and I'm not sure if you do agree to the proposal of laying out game rules.

I know some role-players might view rules and regulations as a killjoy but in the long-run, I feel this would be the best way to maintain Santharia's identity and integrity while keeping the enjoyment for the game. I mean we lay out certain rules, and those who don't like it can opt not to play, simple as that. Rather than they come in and are dissatisfied with aspects of Santharia and try to radically modify it but are told they can't. Weeding out people who are not serious BEFORE they start role-playing sounds practical and can minimize a lot of unnecessary unpleasantness that may arise, people usually don't like being told what they can't do when they're set on doing it....but then, maybe that's just me ;)  

I hope this isn't turning out to be a war where battle lines are drawn!! Thanks, Art, for not treating my ramblings as the mutterings of a discontented malcontent! I also hope you don't mind me speaking out like this! I really mean no ill-will! Like I said, I've become quite attached to Santharia and its people and am really concerned about the directions it'll be taking in the future. I truly would hate it for some black-sheep role-player to completely twist Santharia into a hotbed of sex, sin and violence, in a manner of speaking :lol   Something like that might be a small, isolated incident, but nevertheless it would spoil things for me, my pleasure in being a Santharian, considerably :(  

.....P.S I really am long-winded, aren't I! I seem to be enforcing the stereotype that females can talk a man to death given a chance! :lol   My deepest apologies if I'm boring anyone!  

Edited by: Dala Valannia at: 6/29/01 10:48:03 am

Title: Re: Greybark stands behind people who are making a stand....
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 30 June 2001, 15:44:00
*hehe* No, don't worry, Dalá - your comments and concerns are appreciated, wouldn't want to miss them!

As for the question: Will they realize it? - Don't know. All I can say is that it may be worth a try from my point of view before we can judge where the project heads. And that we maybe shouldn't be too severe at predefining rules etc. (at least a game is a game), but you're right though: There should be some clear pre-conditions set up before everybody takes what he/she/it wants from Santharia and heads off towards stupid player killing. This would have nothing to do with epic role playing which I envision for Santharia. Still, this would be quite a task to determine what role players have to accept and where the player's freedom begins etc. but it would be one of the most important issues to discuss.

Anyway. I haven't heard much of Nate in the past days, but I hope he's following this thread and will answer to the uttered positions from his point of view. Would be very interesting and decisive on the matter to hear his opinion.

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 30 June 2001, 16:18:00
Yes I'm working with a 3D engine now to discover the development time and resources needed.  There will still be some issue I know we will need to work out Sorren side.

The strategy will not end.  The idea of Sorren is many games tied into the same world.  So like there might be one program that allows the world to be created and another for players.

From what I have been experimenting with so far it looks as if the framework of the game will work something like this...

The world is divided into geographic zones.  The zones around the current one you are in are downloaded in the background if your character has never been in that zone before on a limited bandwidth basis.  The more you explore the more levels load.  I'm wanting to be able to allow builders to build a zone (one of these levels) and then admins check it out and seamlessly tie it in to the rest of the world assigning a certain range prior to hitting the entrance that the level gets queued for download.

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 30 June 2001, 16:47:00
In response to the question about using Santharian characters in the game.

I haven't decided exactly how to work everything in.  I will have to discuss ideas with you all for most of it.  There will be a lot of cross involvement if we decide to do this.

I cannot handle building a site like in which people can interact with one another in order to develop the world.

Some of the things we may look into is the ability for 3D artists to have their models displayed on the Santharia webpage next to creature descriptions.

I'm not the person making this decision.  I would need to discuss this with art, but in my opinion I don't see playing characters that have been previously created in santharia as a good thing except for the creators of those characters.  Keep in mind the process will be evolutionary not revolutionary.  I don't have 20 3d artists, 10 programmers, 2 sound guys, and lead for each team.  Reason being that I desire to keep the game free, but I feel that a 2 year evolutionary development can get us a nice and fun 3d mmorpg.

I'm going to touch on something else I read higher on the message boards briefly.  Sorren is not another online web based strategy game.  I created the strategy game using the same database to house an rpg the heroes in The Lands of Sorren will be playable as rpg characters in The Heroes of Sorren.  I made a decision to work with Santharia rather than one of the other rpg dream sites.  I don't believe Santharia is just another of those many fantasy (ad

Title: Re: hmmmmmm
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 30 June 2001, 17:09:00
This is in response to the concept of a merger.  This isn't what's happening.  I guess we can look at it more as a pooling of talents to better a world.  I'll elaberate more below.

I have had many programmers come to me excited about helping to improve Sorren making little progress.  I'm happy to see what Art has pulled off here.  You have excellent cooperation.  That's the kind of help that's useful.  Not the kind that disappears.

Art mentioned a calendar system, units of measure, necessary maps.  These are the things that Sorren needs the most, he hit the nail on the head.  These are also many of the things that Santharia needs.  Why do the same thing twice?  In addition to this Santharia already has much of what's needed.  Beasts and races for example.  Granted I may not be able to create all the races at the start or even make them all playable.  We would probably start by creating a small town with only humans with a few beasts outside the town.

Upgrading the previous example we might find a way for players in game to pick up an object and move it somewhere else.  Allow a person with no programming or art experience to decorate a house, or market with the details needed to make it look "right".  Having good communication to everyone will also be nice like if a builder needs an apple for a fruit stand how can they get it?

Now back to the first paragraph.  This isn't a merger.  Santharia doesn't have to be changed to fit Sorren, and Sorren doesn't have to be molded to fit Santharia.  But sharing the same resources is beneficial to both.  As well as sharing the same applications.

Title: Re: Xenos Makes A stand
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 30 June 2001, 17:43:00
In response to these demands of Sorren mentioned above...

>1. this must be ROLE playing, not some hack'n slash 3d game, RP must be done, and thse who dont MUST be removed promptly and efficently, I will not have my creations, or arts, or dala's, or koldars, that have taken hours of our time reduced to little modles for some wanna be hero to hack up without appreicating the story behind it.

>2. Applicants Must go through a short world getting used to training, so they have at least a basic idea before they start RolePlaying(see demand 1)

>3. this not interfir with our creativity, I know that things such as measurement and currency are important but so are anchent heros, or varios wines, and things like that...

This is an example of what must not happen.  The good little list of demands.  I have heard Sorren players mention things like.

Example 1. As long as Santharia agrees to not create more then a human race then I would say okay.  But additional races is just so dumb.

Example 2. They can't have magic in Santharia, what's going to happen next, create little pixies to sprinkle pixie dust everywhere.

Well I believe very strongly that these decisions aren't made like this.  I can say what my vision is for Sorren.  But I can't guarantee to any demands.  The final product will probably not be my vision.  Art, Xenos, others will dramatically effect what is in the final product.  But we get closer to the goal i'm not going to get lost in technicalities, and I'm not going to say Santharia has to be a certain way.  That's not my place.

Now to answer the specific items as best as I can from my current vision.

1.  I see some players interacting with Sorren as a hack/slash game because that's all that some players know.  I plan on monitoring the game well, and that means approving character names for them to level past a certain point.

Keep in mind I have a strong background in non-graphical mud playing.

2.  I would like to see a newbie training area.  One in which the character will be taught about proper role playing.  I also want to see little details added to the game to make it more adventurous for the "true" roleplayer.  When I say that I mean maybe going so far as to code in dynamic quests that take many clues to solve.  A hard quest may involve learning an Elvish language from instructional books found in the game.  I know this may be a bit elaborate right now, but in a couple of years it will seem closer to reality.

3.  I came to Santharia because of the creativity.  I don't plan on making a list of rules you must adhere to.  Keep in mind that both Art and I have made quite a few accomplishments that have taken reasoning, teamwork, insight, creativity, and dedication.  After talking with him I don't feel he is going to wreck my current view of Sorren.  Although I am sure the view will change.  Change isn't always good or bad.  But change will always exist.  I just help to guide it in the direction I believe myself and players will enjoy seeing it go.  And yes I give your opinions with the same value I do player suggestions.

Title: Re: Xenos Makes A stand
Post by: Xenos Ravenbeack on 30 June 2001, 20:07:00
acceptable... I will contue on my present coarse of fleshing out R'unorian history... I will be very interested in seeing 3d lurkers flying through the sky when the time comes

oh, please show me those who dared to interfir whith my creativity and tried to limit us here at santh... we have some things to discuss

good day I wich you luck in your endevor

but we're watching you... never forget that

(sorry if I'm sounding like a warped dictator again... for my other project, please nate don't take anything as a threat, or hostility, I'm just wierd)

Title: Re: Xenos Makes A stand
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 30 June 2001, 22:48:00
I won't take it to heart.  Just keep in mind the game may not go like you or I intended.  Art and I are both careful enough to protect our dreams from damage.  If the game doesn't work out Santharia is simply left with more applications to play with and continues as normal.  If Santharia doesn't work out Sorren is simply left with more details about the fantasy world and will continue to grow as normal.

If my guess is right though they will both work out quite well and continue to grow and develop into an elaborate fantasy world bigger than any of us imagined.

Technology limits us right now.  But if we can play catch up we can get on top of the newest toys and ride them into the next decade.

I think the near future has a lot to offer including million triangles per second renders.  Remote control flat panel glasses (true 3d through lcd).  Smell and pain feedback.  Motion detection interface.  The fun stuff we now see in the movies I feel are very close.  And by getting on top of modern technology we can get ever closer to making dreams a reality.

I created a company when I was 19.  Our slogan was "Making Dreams a Reality".  I suppose that's one of the things that caught my attention with Santharia.

Title: Re: Xenos Makes A stand
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 01 July 2001, 09:10:00
Many thanx for your detailed explanations, Nate!

I can understand the concerns and suggestions from both sides, from players (Sorren) and world developers (Santharia) and I see that we both, the two webmasters, are sitting in between these two groups who of course have all their own ideas how everything should work or shouldn't work. What we need is a compromise from both sides to make things work, to let creativity flow. I know also that developing a game as Nate envisions it is by no means an easy undertaking and that the vision and reality will differ considerably perhaps. Too strict demands on how the final result should look like from two sides would be impossible to cope with. But Nate already mentioned in many ways what I think too. And I guess he is heading in the same direction.

Let me especially note that I think that Nate is indeed someone who has a dream and does his best to make it reality. Sounds familiar somehow. And there are few people who stick to their projects the way Nate does, as far as I can judge from my first impressions. He spent months in order to make Sorren work and as you can see on the amount of visitors who enjoy gaming in Sorren it was worth it. Now a cooperation of two good sites is one step more towards the same goal: realizing a dream. Every site stands for something the other cannot offer. But of course most things still have to be based on trust and understanding. We of course still need more voices (from both sides), but I personally think a cooperation is worth a try and will help us both in our endeavours.

BTW: Thanx for integrating Santharia to your link exchanges, Nate! The amount of visitors increased dramatically (at least today), I've got several people who signed in for the newsletter already and judging from a guestbook entry we also already have one more who is interested in joining the Santharian development team.

Ok, hope to hear more voices here! Also keep us informed what the gamers of Sorren think about the cooperation, Nate!

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/30/01 4:11:55 pm

Title: Re: Koldar speaking ;)
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 01 July 2001, 10:11:00
Well, reading all this I just see one big problem and that is how deep the cooperation will be.
On the one hand it sounds somewhat strange to adopt weights, measures, gods and cultures from Santharia but not geography.
On the other hand in case the playground of Sorren will be set as a region/continent (AFAIK we have still some free space in our world) of Santharia it would be strange if we don't integrate its geography/history/etc. into our world.

Without lists of demands here are some general suggestions:

-Santharian history goes up to the age of Discoveries (ca. 1300 b.S.), as this is the time of the great writer of Artimidor Federkiel, IMO only this or the following age(not yet existing age) might be suitable for Sorren/Santharia as this would prevent unwanted interferences in existing Santharian history.
I would think a RPG-Worldcreation-crossover can only happen here.

-The scale of your game is needed in order to know how Sorren can be built-in Santharia or Sorren combined with Santharia or Santharia built-in Sorren.
We can desert a town, plunder the landscape, burn farms, slaughter families to make several hundred square-miles free for you but whole continents might lead to a uprise and war with powerful nations we won't win if we try! ;)
Meaning: A single town for startup is IMO no problem, whole continents are! That has to be planned in before not afterwards!

-What do your players want(Or: Do you want your players want! ;) )? A RPG where they've to dive into an existing world or a world they'll create while playing? A small but important difference.

-It might be good to check back what you want to preserve from your now existing Sorren and if or how the existing world fits into Santharia. Already how many races exist there -in your existing game as well as in what you've planned for the RPG- might be a keypoint.

In the end it leads to one major point:

The degree of cooperation we start with has to be clear and the degree of cooperation we want to achieve, too!

If we want only to exchange ideas it might be better to handle Sorren as completely different Realm.
Problem: This would be a startup of a new worldcreation and thus it will get difficult how Santharia might help while keeping the World of Sorren unique and not a shallow copy of what we have here.
If we want to merge the game with Santharia in some way we have to know/discuss and clear how we will merge it together and how deep, otherwise we might have a big problem afterwards.

We shouldn't forget that binding two vast projects like this together leads to an even bigger project and so we all have to know what will be going before giving away what we all already see as our spiritual property (not kidding here!).

I try to keep a neutral position here but realize that this will be also a big problem as I just can't! :)

Another interesting proposal would be to open a Forum where Santharian guys can meet Sorren guys and we might exchange ideas about Sorren should work there. In a full cooperation the least thing would be to use this forum during game creation  as discussion board for all content-specific(and thus more Santharia-related) stuff.

BTW: A general timetable (esp. when you want to start making your RPG) would be good to know...

Well, lots of text and  think half of it can be skipped but I also think that 50% of it are points that has to be cleared/discussed to make a good decision!


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: Re: Koldar speaking ;)
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 01 July 2001, 12:05:00
It's a huge project that's no doubt.  The current age sounds good.  Age of discoveries will work great.

The first version of the game will not be the final version.  It will grow and evolve over time as everything else does.

Basically stage 1 will allow 3d models to be displayed using java and directX on our websites.  These will likely be the same 3d models that's used for objects inside the game.  it isn't quite as time consuming as it may appear at first.  Because the models themselves can be reused for example your coat of arms.  We can texture the same mesh with different skins to have different ones.

Stage 2 will allow world builders to look around the zone (local area or map chopped into downloadable segments)  Downloading of zones will be in the background under limited bandwidth after the current one is downloaded to allow fairly seamless play.

Stage 3 will involve creating communication between the building application and the server so that changes in the zone can be stored on the server.  (details not determined).

Stage 4 will involve developers seeing one another in the same zone and both making changes simultaneously.

Stage 5 will involve many players being able to view and interact with the world.

Art and I have discussed the nature of developers, their roles, appointing them, what to call them in the rpg game so as to not break character etc.

As for a timeline I want to have stage 5 finished in 2 years.  Breaking it down farther would be a challenge.  I think working with you guys may push initial deadlines back but save in the long run but i'm not sure.

This will be hard and rewarding work for all of us.  I don't plan on messing with your history at all.  there isn't much from Sorren to work in.  Art and I seem to feel about the same way in most instances about matching stuff up.

It's too big of a project for us to create all of santharia at once.  Way too big of a project.  We are going to figure out how to do this with a small town called Uderza.

Title: Re: Koldar speaking ;)
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 01 July 2001, 12:15:00
Sorren will likely be the name of the planet in Human Tongue.  Dagada Daonami will be world builders in charge of zones.  Art and I have discussed a nice little background story to go along with this including about how they live outside the plane of existance etc.

The Dagada's have Other Daonami helping them.

Take note that all of these are world builders.  Players will not be given this same application.  The gods choose who are Dagada and who are Daonami and what abilities each have in the world.  One may be able to move objects another change the appearance of them applying different textures.  The method of getting the textures into the game might just be to simply upload it and then log in and move them.  At least that's the idea.

Some Daonami will continue to live in a land after it has been finished and populated with players.  The Dagada left are cursed.  They are unable to move objects but have special abilities to walk through walls and doors at will as well as abserving others without being seen.

If they find anything that needs fixed they have no power to fix it but report to their Dogada who can fix or assign the job to a Daonami.

I hope i'm not getting too elaberate here, i'm trying to quench the thirst for knowledge without flooding the others.

Title: Re: Koldar speaking ;)
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 01 July 2001, 13:00:00
There has to be a balance between excitement, graphics, sound, plot, strategy, interface, learning curve, and role-playing.

A game isn't likely to do as well if it has a learning curve that requires people to study for weeks before playing or if it's too complex to navigate.

Strict in game rules mess things up.  Targeting your audience helps.  Current Sorren players tend to be bright, and strategic.  Many are creative.  Not as many have that same high level of role-playing skills.  I'm not creating the 3d game for them.  The games will be working together.  But appeal to different audiences.

Just like another game might be added later that allows humans to play as dragons.  the goals of the new game would surely be different.  But I bet figuring out how to out think a dragon will get harder.

My icq is 20748554 for anyone that wants to contact me go ahead.

Title: Re: Koldar speaking ;)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 02 July 2001, 00:50:00
Nate has changed the code of his website so that Santharians can see the threads in the Sorren-Message Board concerning the cooperation without having to register at Sorren. Check out to see how Sorren players think about the idea!

Title: Re: Koldar speaking ;)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 02 July 2001, 09:09:00
Just some short notes (still working on today's update):

The Dagada and Daonami Nate speaks of could be interpreted as mythological beings of the Etherial Void - they shift the Dream. We had a similar idea already somewhere about Guardians of the world, but it was never realized. These spirits (angels? demi-Gods?) would be essential for the game and could also play a role in Santharian World Development. I envision them as some sort of tragical figures (well, most of them), as they are doomed to create and modify the dream, but not allowed to live in it (at least some). Could be an interesting mythological undertaking: to give these creatures purpose, meaning and destiny aside from a pure function for the game.

Concerning the Forum you mentioned, Koldar: Should I maybe add a Forum inside the Santharian Message Board, Nate, harbouring all things related to this project? More threads than this one would also be fine so that we can discuss certain aspects seperately...

Title: well well
Post by: Torek Ozzot on 02 July 2001, 09:15:00
It looks to me like many sorren players see things the way we do, they don't want there little sand castle to be washed away...
I can't see this as being much of a problem, as long as we draw out how far we want to co-operate. Does sorren want to use every thing we have to offer, all the history, all the geography, all the heroes, every thing. OR do they only want little things, like some animals from the bestiary and currency. Or is it some where in between? The sooner we know exactly how far where gonna take this, the better. I my self would love to see part of the dream in 3d, almost making it come to life. We just need to know how deep this is gonna go...

BTW: I joined up at sorren, and it's really quite fun, it kicks the crap out of utopia. Good show Nate!

Title: Re: well well
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 02 July 2001, 19:41:00
Thanks I appreciate it.  I've worked hard at it and I appreciate the compliments.  There are still some issues that will be resolved in the game.

I remember when I was younger playing a mud called mediavia.  I so much wanted to code the mobs in a zone.  I didn't care about the whole project. Or even making the entire town.  But to make it so that a child comes up to you and begs money from you.  Then after you give him one he treats you differently.  When you visit a zone at certain times mobs are doing different stuff.  Maybe as it's getting dark citizens wander home.  If a kid doesn't make it becuase a human attacked him the villagers can get together and devise a plan for getting vengence.

Anyway, I hope it will be as fun to other world builders as it would have been if I had the chance back then.

Title: Re: well well
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 02 July 2001, 19:52:00
How far I see the two coming together.

Well most of our limits I see will be the ability of the programmers, graphic artists, and builders.  I would like to see all the animals, maps, and languages written in.  Honestly I don't think this will happen in the first attempt.  One of those reasons is because technology changes so fast.  By the time we get so far along there will be a new and better way to do it.

But i'm looking foreward to working with a group of people who will all gain in experience and knowledge along the way.  The game will not end up being the way I see it now.  I have programmed long enough to know that fact.

I am relatively new to directX programming but I have successfully managed to create some 3d objects in code.  And pull in a 3d object that my wife made with 3d studio max.  Both of the above tests were done with javascript not java and both were using 3d acceleration, software rendering if no 3d card existed.  I am of the opinion that in 2 years almost everyone will have a 3d accelerator card and cable or better internet connections.

My icq is 20748554 if you wish to discuss ideas mentioned in this thread.

Title: Re: well well
Post by: Dala Valannia on 02 July 2001, 22:05:00
You're helping to babysit your nephews for the weekend and you come back to Santharia and an epic has evolved :lol  Wow, you guys have really been pounding this Sorren/Santharian problem when I was away! Trying to catch up on my reading and firstly, I would like to thank Nate as well for trying to address our concerns in a clear, succinct, yet tactful manner :)  I appreciate the time you're taking to alay our fears here that Sorren won't completely engulf Santharia's unique-ness and vice-versa. Still, from what I read of yours and Art's posts, I get the feeling that you two have pretty much decided on the merger or at least very near to agreeing to do it so I guess quibbling now on whether the joining should go through is quite moot ;)  But I guess too that I have enough faith in Art to know that he'll be looking out for Santharia and our individual interests the best he can. Like Xenos said, I'll continue to concentrate on expanding Santharia and try not to worry too much. But also like Xenos said the way only Xenos can say it, we'll be watching you! :lol  Please don't take it that we'll be watching your every move and ready to pounce on any mistakes or errors with a savage glee! For my case, it just means that I'll be keeping a friendly and interested eye on the development of Sorren/Santharia and is willing to help out anyway I can :)

One last question, for Art, how does the concept of Ava fits in within Sorren/Santharia or not at all? The cosmology section of Santharia is very wonderful in its intricate details but I think it might be a little too abstract for most RPG games. For example, how does the Dagada and Daonami, supposedly filling in roles as Guardians or World Builders, fits in with Ava's dream? Did she give birth to them within her Dream or are they an independent or external force?

Title: Re: well well
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 03 July 2001, 13:15:00
We were discussing some necessary things, Dalá, which would be necessary to integrate in Santharian cosmology making things for the game work. This doesn't mean that we've decided things behind your back... *grin* In general I'd say: Don't worry for now about your ideas being grabed by someone, guys etc. The development of an appropriate game engine will last quite a while I guess, and we've picked a place for a first testing place which has not much history and connections to the rest of the land currently. So you will be able to watch the progress, and there won't be much change in the usual world developing business for now, I think. But as I've said already somewhere else: We may take suggestions on what to concentrate, this helps us both.

As for the Guardians/Dagada and Daonami: We will integrate this into Santharian mythology, I'll handle that, I guess. We already have the darkwinds carrying the world, which is embedded in the Etherial Void. It's only logical that there are connections or connectors between reality and the unreal - "lesser" darkwinds - darkwinds with the longing to become winds of the light (here's the tragic e.g.). I already think about deducing the phenomenon of winds on Aér'aí'chán/Sorren from Guardians escaping the Void etc. Needs some more thought, but we'll find something fitting.

Title: My thoughts.
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 03 July 2001, 15:28:00
I need to read a bit more on the Gods before I can come up with how it can tie in.  Art has a good knowledge of Santharia so he probably has the best idea of their place in history.

I see there is always a problem though if we try to play the game as stuff is being built all in the same time period.

Functionality wise the world will probably have some sort of magic barrier at the edge of the in production zone.  that daonami can't pass.  Finished levels would have a barrier that only daonami (builders) can pass.  Daonami can't effect things in the finished zone directly.  Only inform the Dagada about it.  I'm hoping to have most bugs worked out of zones before they are played.  Issues we might miss for example is a place players can get trapped.  Maybe stairs that allow a player to fall under them when they walk backwards up them or something like that.  These issues need to have a system of getting fixed and players getting helped that doesn't take up the time of the dagada (senior development managers) unless it's necessary.

Title: question.
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 03 July 2001, 19:08:00
What would be about 5 good names for trade shops.  and what towns would they be located in.

for example Bardavos supplies might be a name.

Title: Re: question.
Post by: Xenos Ravenbeack on 03 July 2001, 21:25:00
Vladimirs Previosly Owned Weapon and Supply Shop Located east side of willowrun, R'unor

Title: Finally,
Post by: Greybark on 03 July 2001, 22:07:00
It looks like they are taking the neccessary precautions to make sure that everything is well integrated.

Looks good!

Thanks for taking the time to find out what we're about, Nate!

Looking forward to seeing the combination Sorentharia! ;)

Title: Re: Finally,
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 04 July 2001, 05:48:00
Thanks, for all your feedback, Nate!

I checked the forum and I was wondering if I'm able to post anything there and if yes if this is by intention?

Have the feeling most people there think a RPG is a good idea but currently there's not that many talk about our cooperation. People still try to figure out what will change with your new game and don't see the new dimension it will take! :)

Currently I'm a bit stressed so you don't have to fear that I would flood the forum when I've access, if not it doesn't matter either.

Lots of things to do here!

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: Re: Finally,
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 04 July 2001, 12:21:00
Some proposals for names to be used at Weapon Shops:

Helmwoud's Swords and Armours (Marcogg)
The Shimmering Axes. Proprietor: Halving Ovaetsrhoven (Nyermersys, Lision Lane, on the corner - can't miss it!)
Invincible Blades. Sharp Weapons and Light Armours Shop owned by Gael III. Jr. (Santhala, southern district)

Just keep asking what you need for the game and we will try to elaborate on it if possible and time allows.

Concerning the cooperation: My vacation starts on Friday, so I will mail out a newsletter at the end of the week to all Santharians and those surfers who signed up for the newsletter (still getting more and more sign ups from Sorren players). I will mention the cooperation idea there and hopefully get more comments on the matter.

Some excerpts from mails and guestbooks entries we got these days:

"how do i  get to play this game - please help  !!!!!!!!!"

"i have heard all about The Santharian Dream and it looks like one of the best rpg's i've when i download the DOC files...i can't play the game..what can i do as an alternative?? please help..i really want to play this game..thanx for you time"

"I am playing Sorren and would like to play your game"

"this site is confusing on how to start playing an explanation would be helpful."

and again

"how do i get to play this game ?????"

Keywords searched most in the Santharian Search Engine lately:

"sign up", "starting", "starting a character", "game"...

Hmmm... I have the impression that people are already searching desperately for something to play... *grin*

Title: Re: Finally,
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 05 July 2001, 07:32:00
that would be my guess.

Title: Re: trade shops.
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 05 July 2001, 07:33:00
I'm looking for more of resource shop names.  Just figured since I was adding multiple trade markets into sorren anyway I would use city names and stuff to go along with santharia.

Title: Re: signups
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 05 July 2001, 07:47:00
you will probably continue to recieve a good number of signups and e-mails per day.  Sorren has about 2,000 new visitors every day. 200 new players per day.  and about 100-150 players stop playing.  Usually when i've added somethign that they don't like but 80%+ of the others wanted.  It averages out to 100-150 per day.

So far I have only advertised santharia inside of Sorren.  I'm not limited to this.  Art it would be a good idea to sign up for a banner exchange account at  Then I can place the add that they give you inside sorren to generate traffic.  The reason I would choose that link exchange is because they provide nice targeting function so you can target the impressions where you are most likely to find the sort of help you need.  For example targeting graphic art sites when you need artists etc.  Please make the password a lower security one that you can share with me.  Then just let me know once it's set up and i'll start generating you some impressions.

Title: Re: Finally,
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 05 July 2001, 07:53:00
About forum access.

I had set the forums up so that people could post as guests.  I created a regionID number of 0 for the quest login.  A couple players decided it would be fun to use profanity as a guest then noone would know who it was.  Well needless to say when their messages got deleted it added the no post restriction to the guest login.

To be able to post before the timout expires on the guest account simply create a region and log in.  It doesn't matter if you build your region or not.  But the creating of a login allows me to know who it is posting so the forums can be monitored by the admins.

Sorry about the inconvenience.  The way forum post restrictions work is like this...

1 deleted post 1 day of not being able to post.
2 deleted posts 2 days of not being able to post.
3 deleted posts 3 days of not being able to post.

So the time increases.  Again sorry about the inconvenience.

Title: Re: Getting things a bit more organized.
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 05 July 2001, 08:23:00
What creatures do you think should be in the Uderza area?

What style of buildings?  Know anyone that might be able to do a couple concept sketches so we can see what we like?

What sort of clothing might be expected in that area?  Sketches?

By the way if anyone asks to do art and wonders if they are good enough to do certain stuff these are some items that might be interesting.

Are the people nomads?  They Armed?  If walking down the street what conversations would you hear about the most?  

"The weather seems a bit dry today, just like the last 63 years..."
"How am I supposed to get these horse shoes to work.  They look like they were made for a miniature..."
"What do you mean all sales are final, Mr Smithin Pyro you know I can't read."

Anyway those are a few questions.  And please anyone feel free to give their input on how the citizens might behave etc.  If you don't know where Uderza is check out the map and look at the southern part in the desert.

Title: Re: Getting things a bit more organized.
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 05 July 2001, 14:14:00
Concerning my posting question: That's no prob'! I just wanted to ask before creating a security breach just because of unknown acces or something. I'll make some contact when I've the time. (very sad for me, I haven't:( )


I was already wondering where Uderza exactly lies. The expert of this region used to be Gean Firefeet but he was not very active lately so I think RL has him in its merciless claws.
So anything I say might be not completely right.

The Stratanians, the general tribe living everywhere in the desert region is consisting of nomads that had settled at various places (mostly at the coast) lateron. They're maintaining many important traderoutes over the seas and so caravans would be logical, too.

Their clothes are mainly oriental, so you can take this as reference. I would think that they're often wearing knives or daggers, but no big things in general.

I would see Uderza as an important node for several inland traderoutes connecting Varcopas, Thalambath and Bardavos (the later are two big and important towns), so conversation about trade affairs, weather and prices might be logic.

Don't know if anyone can come up with decent sketches (time problem), our master artist Faugar is currently on holidays, so this might look nogood.

So, if have any more ideas I'll suggest them later...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: Re: Getting things a bit more organized.
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 05 July 2001, 14:51:00
Shop names: Come on, guys! This is your opportunity to get your own shop - for free...;)

Link Exchanges: As I noticed I already signed up for Link Exchanges quite a while ago, but I never really tried to generate hits with it. Reason: Forcing me to use a banner with a size of 10 KB maximum in GIF (!) format is ridiculous. I'd have no problems with 15 KB and JPG, but this restriction is definitely too much. It annoyed me already quite a while ago and I still have no real good idea how to make a banner which will attract people to click on it which is of that small size... - Only really effective possibility seems to be an animated banner like Sorren uses - with extremely few colors for the texts and a maximum of one small picture somewhere. Damned. Will have to work on such a banner in the next few days.

Forum: Still think we should add an own Forum to Santharia too where Sorren players could post their ideas, concerns, wishes, hopes etc. And we could use this Forum for our talk about the cooperation and for requests from the Sorren side Santharia could cover, like tasks like the naming of shops etc. - we'll make an own thread for every request and people can post proposals etc. in these threads. - Don't know if you like the idea, but I of course would link to this Forum directly from the Web History page, thus (hopefully) bringing Sorren players into this Forum. If the idea sounds ok to you, Nate: I would need your Sorren Sword in order to make a banner for this Forum (perhaps with and without the "Sorren" text on it).

Beasts - Currently described beasts useable in  this region would be the Giant Rock Snake (Raház'Estár), the Scorpion, perhaps Exechons and Zyloths too. We of course would also need some desert spiders.

People would be nomads, I guess, yes. Armed? Of course. The desert is a dangerous place... Maybe Gean has some ideas here, who concentrates a bit on the Santharian south. Dalá'Valannía also described the desert people of Aeruillin, maybe she knows something too about this kind of desert people.

Clothing, buildings, sketches etc. Currently important Santharian artists (Faugar, Koldar etc.) have to do exams or are away on well deserved vacations for some weeks, but we should be able to work out some descriptions, I hope. If anyone has some ideas please try to do everything in Compendium form, as usual:)  

Title: Re: Getting things a bit more organized.
Post by: Dala Valannia on 05 July 2001, 19:18:00
Hi, sorry I've been missing for the last few days but I had a good excuse! I was laid up after pulling my wisdom tooth out :eek  Oh well, it had to be done sooner or later.....and plus I'm going back tomorrow for minor surgery on another one.....God grant me strength.....

Anyhow, I wouldn't say I'm an expert on desert people/nomads! That's cutting it a bit too thick :lol  My Azhorhria are loosely based on the Arabic Bedouins with similiar behaviour and customs. I was always very inspired by 'Lawrence of Arabia' and that first shot of Omar Shariff sauntering up to Peter O'Toole, looking utterly majestic in his black robes...! Okay, sorry, I digress :)  But yes, I plan to expand on the Azhorhria and the desert region they live in, the Ysthalinth, once I'm done with my Katya stories and for more information on the former, they're listed under 'Races' at the main site.

Title: About Uderza
Post by: Gean Firefeet on 06 July 2001, 00:52:00
Ah RealLife, hmmm, well I'm enjoying my welldeserved holidays, but it seems I'm forgetting all about Santharia, I had to reread this thread twice to know what everyone was talking about. I'm to lazy these days, I'm sorry for not letting my voice hear in the discussion.
As well sorry for the delay, I'll try to make this post usefull by adding a few ideas.

If I understand correctly you need ideas for the current time (about 1600 After Santhros). The situation is the south would be as followed:
Thalambath is the capital of the Province, which means it harbours the main government bodies etc. It is as well the most important port after the demise of Strata in the late 800 b.S.(or around that time, haven't elaborated that fully).
Strata is a harbour city with a lot of lost glory. Criminality flourishes but only in certain parts of the city, the local government brooks some smuggling but prevents things getting out of hand.
Then there's Bardavos. City of artists, this place is yours if you're of the intellectual and openminded kind. But security and safety is maintained strictly, not much a place for adventure, but more a place of wisdom and tranquility.
The smaller towns include Uderza, Varcopas and Rahmat. Varcopas is important for it's traffic route over the Aetryam Sea, though ships are regulary lost because of unexpected cyclones that on a regular base torture the water of this sea. But the route to the north will often go via Varcopas to Chylikis or Brinsley, it's easier to pass this sea, then pass the desert and elven woods over land.
Rahmat is not elaborated yet.
Uderza: I was thinking as some sort of resource for traders between Varcopas and Thalambath. Trade is the main income in all of Stratania. A trade route from themajor trade city to the easiest way north sounds logical. Uderza could function as town where the caravans get their refreshments, as an oasis is near, a scarce possession in a desert, and it's halfway the route. Talks would then include economics rumours(   "have you heard about that deal Thalambath General Food Inc. has done with blablabla), the usual desert tales (   "Last week another kid was lost to one of those giant snakes") and maybe some earlier suggested things.
Another animal/monster could maybe include something like a sandlizard or something similar, but I think you will mostly encounter simple humans. The population of the cities will mainly consist of humans as well, but as it are mostly tradeports, all sorts of other races can be expected though in minor numbers.
I haven't really thought of clothing yet, maybe we could design a typical headthing with a large and broad edge to give some shadow in the hot areas?

Hopes this helps a little.... I think Strata would be a typical town to have a weaponshop, maybe something like   Daron's New and Used Weaponry or   Hyggin's Hold of Handheld Hammers and various other smashing weaponry? I might come up with more...

edit: Think I'll fit this in a general entry on the Stratanian/Truban Province, with a short description of each town, might that be a good idea Art?

Edited by: Gean Firefeet at: 7/5/01 7:37:26 pm

Title: Re: About Uderza
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 06 July 2001, 07:11:00
I appreciate your help and those are excellent ideas.  And notes.  I want to make sure that any new beasts we add for this region are recorded in the Bestiary etc.

Here is my icq so we can discuss these things in more detail and make sure everything gets reviewed by Art and added to Santharia.  ICQ 20748554.

Again I appreciate your help.

Title: Re: About Uderza
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 06 July 2001, 14:13:00
Yeah, Compendium entry would be very useful here, Gean! If you still have time please try to elaborate one, maybe one for the general province overview so that we get this covered and one for Uderza and it's position in the province (if possible).

Concerning the clothing part: I'm really bad with describing clothes, but that's also why I mentioned Dalá earlier in this thread as she's fond of vintage clothing... - maybe you have some ideas here, Dalá, at least you now also a lot about desert people? (Just asking.)

I will try to work on the myth of the Dagada and Daonami in the next days (hey, I'm on vacation now!), but I need to discuss some details with Nate here first.

Title: my very own shop??
Post by: Torek Ozzot on 06 July 2001, 14:48:00
How about funk master footes big bad hip hop emporium o' weapons and stuff?

ok i got some real ideas too, chill...
The searing blade
The bitter point
The Ashmarian fist
*insert name here*'s lance and dagger
*insert name here*'s wand and staff

hmmmmmm never said they were good ideas...

Title: Re: my very own shop??
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 07 July 2001, 09:41:00
Uhhhh, this thread is getting a little bit long. Art, is it possible to create a new Forumsection ("SorrenRPG discussion board" or something) where the "formerRPG-section" lies.

Would make it possible to get more handsome threads concerning this matter...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: Re: my very own shop??
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 July 2001, 10:21:00
Just waiting for Nate's ok and the Sorren banner (sword please with and without the "Sorren" name) to be used at the new Forum... If you have time, Nate, please mail them!

Title: Re: my very own shop??
Post by: Greybark on 07 July 2001, 20:26:00
Would also suggest that people not make multiple posts right after each other. If no one has answered yet, maybe just edit your own last post?

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Gean Firefeet on 08 July 2001, 01:47:00
OK just had an interesting discussion/conversation about Uderza/Stratania with Art, we've had a lot of ideas, entries for compendium and ideas for you to review will pop up within a few hours hopefully.

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 12 July 2001, 18:28:00
By the way Art thanks for keeping everything moving forward.  I'm finding out how big of a project this item shop is turning out to be.

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Greybark on 12 July 2001, 20:00:00
Lots of discussion on just about everything in the Santharia end of lets us work out bugs and pool our imaginations before putting things on the site....

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Wren on 25 July 2001, 14:41:00
The worst thing would be if the game was simply a kill and level game like some MUD's I play. New players would not have to know or acknowledge the world that has been created. Many online games are very very limiting.

I'd really encourage you to take a look at although its text based, I love the ideas. You have to graduate from a uni, which teaches you what to do eliminating newbie questions, you can be anything you want. I especially love the way, that the Gods and Leaders are actual players. They can interact, favour, disfavour and pick chosen players....The eventual aim is to be immortal, though inapriate to santharia really.
Another game worth referencing is is As you can actually have a home, rent a shop and just work if that is your aim, or become a hero if you so wish.

That's my wish list. If we can incorperate that to the 3d, then I'll be a happy bunny :)  

questions, questions.....

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 25 July 2001, 15:01:00
I tried out Avalon quite some time ago. The biggest drawback IMO was that it is/was not for free and concerning the fact that it is completely text-based and looked like any other free MUD was very disappointing. So I only played my free hours and then left.
It looked relatively good but not that good! :)

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 27 July 2001, 11:33:00
We'll see. We're still at a very early stage of game development, so there's still a long road to go and many ideas to gather...

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 27 July 2001, 13:38:00
Is there an actual timeline that anyone knows about?


Psychotic Wizard-Type

Title: Re: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 27 July 2001, 13:42:00
2 years in order to set up the first working testing server according to information from Nate, which sounds realistic.

Title: about a timeline
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 30 July 2001, 06:36:00
A couple thoughts of where we start.

Have you guys ever played populous?  I'm meaning like the older snes version even.

In case you havn't i'll explain it briefly.  You are a god (the original).  In the newer one you are a shaman who becomes a god when you win.

Anyway the original more then the later version gives you the ability to raise and lower land as you desire. (amongst other things we won't need).

Textures are automatically generated to fit in with the elevations in the new versions.

I guess this would be the sort of a think i'm looking to make for a developer tool near the start.

Briefly how it is likely to work behind the scenes...
I have a database table with x,y,z coordinates which specify the height of the land at that location.  The tool will look at a piece of modifications needed to it.  And adjust all points surrounding it accordingly so it won't look jagged.

Now here comes the fun part...  I'm going to make a seperate tool that will take these database values and convert them into a greyscale bitmap(not really a bitmap) since storing red, green, and blue values would be needless with greyscale.

Anyway the resulting image would use the greyscale value to indicate the height of that point.  And each pixel X and Y would indicate the height of it.  The terrain builder will be our first step.  And naturally it will be from a 3rd person perspective over the 3d landscape.

I will also have a walkthrough application made that will allow you to walk around as a player.  (no game functions just walk around) single player in this little land.

Title: Another note...
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 30 July 2001, 06:51:00
We will also be able to place two zone mapes side by side using photoshop if needed.  So multiple people can make pieces of a zone.

Another note...  Zone maps will overlap  Because vision doesn't end at the end of a particular zone.  Before the new zone is loaded (I plan on a limited bandwidth background download)  The player will still need to be able to see what's ahead, over the next hill etc.

Title: Re: Another note...
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 31 July 2001, 09:22:00
So we're going to be doing land based on Santharian geography. Will the characters be actual human size? Or will they be enlarged to make the maps easier. And if we're going to be making all of these maps, could we make a larger map for Santharia from them?

Also, on character size, there needs to be relative sizes for the races, but that's probably obvious.


Psychotic Wizard-Type

Title: character size
Post by: Nate of Sorren on 09 August 2001, 13:45:00
This part is a piece of cake.  3d models can be scaled using a function called setscale(x,y,z)
They can be made thinner, fatter, or taller.

After we get a nice chunk of land made for a zone in the wilderness (what i'm calling everything not in a town or dungeon).

I will test it at different character sizes and see what works well.

we can use a greyscale image that is 2000x2000 or 100x100 one will load faster the other have more detail.

How big we make the character will be how detailed the landscap will be able to be.

So a 2000x2000 might be a 30 second walk or a 2 hour one.  I'm just going to have to test those things out and see what works best.

I've been testing on a voodoo 3 16mb, nvidia 16mb (something), and an ati all in wonder 32 mb.

I know all these cards will be out of date in a couple years, but what runs descent on them now should run excellent in 2 years.

Title: Re: character size
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 09 August 2001, 15:15:00
BTW: If you can need someone with experience in 3d-Studio Max, I might help out. While I can't guarantee that I've enough free time to do major work I might be able to contribute things.

I'm really wondering how the outcome will look like! :)

(Displacement Maps, charactermodelling and esspecially characteranimation: ARGH! Heartattack.)

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: Re: character size
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 August 2001, 13:22:00
*hehe* Koldar digging on his own grave... *grin*

Title: Re: character size
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 14 August 2001, 09:24:00
There also should be a way to not just create basic forests that are just a texture, but unique trees. Also, will there be the possiblility for caves?


Psychotic Wizard-Type

Title: concerning the game engine.
Post by: Kanga on 25 August 2001, 16:19:00
from what ive seen and understand about 3d programming, the only limits is the creativity at the world designers (AND the tools they have at hand).

buttom up, that means that if the people are smart enouf there will be caves, 7 suns & cities in the trees.

im guessing on this but theorectical, whats the difference between a cave and and then a tighly grown path in the woods? the problem we have is a matter of textures, with the right textures (hint hint to all the artists) it would be a piece of a cake to make all of these ideas, perhaps nate could define this issue a little bit deeper, into detail whats required of the textures so we could get a simpel test of it.. now that would a nice progress in my eyes.

Title: Caves & stuff.
Post by: nate on 26 August 2001, 13:53:00
Well the way this is looking it will not be UO style.  More like the old final fantasy style.

I hope this doesn't disappoint some people.  But my reason for doing this is so that we can handle development easier and better.

We will be able to allow players to build a level (zone) if that is a cave, or a town that is all up to them.  The most likely tool for zone development will be worldcraft.  

The outside wilderness will be a totally different piece simply because of the scale required.

Title: How It Works
Post by: Sul of Dinen on 28 August 2001, 13:45:00
This is an amazing undertaking and I'm looking forward to playing and engaging with my other peers from Sorren.

Title: Re: Caves & stuff.
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 28 August 2001, 15:03:00
And thousands of squaremiles of green plains are not taking as many polygons as a decent city! ;)  

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Title: Re: Caves & stuff.
Post by: SmurfStormcrow on 29 August 2001, 13:55:00
Definately, unless we want to mark every gopher hole and prairie dog extablishment!


Psychotic Wizard-Type