Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Languages and Runes => Topic started by: Koldar Mondrakken on 01 January 2003, 08:19:00



Title: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 01 January 2003, 08:19:00
OK , it is not finished, it is sketchy and only a summary but maybe it is now more of a foundation for further work.:)    


Kh'om'chr'om
This is one of the main dialects of orcish dialects. In its purest form it is spoken by the Ashz-OC and possibly spread from there at least as secondary language to most Orcs of Sarvonia. Via the Gob-Oc the language principles got known to the Santharian linguists. Going from there they developed a rough overview over grammer and vocabulary.


The Alphabet:
The orcish alphabet has many guterral and hissing sounds but only few labial. The main reason for this is that the teeth of an Orc are an important factor in their mimic(from obliging to threatening) so they avoid sounds that distract from their mimic. This is the reason for a great amount of variants of certain consonants that fill up this gap. In the Kh'om'chr'om dialect the vowels a,o,u are dominant ones that claim the stress to the syllable they belong to. E and I seldomly appear in a pure form but are merged with consonants or other vowels as wordbinders.
The stress generally lies on the first sylable, dominant vowels mark further points of stress.

Note: I use the German sound pattern for the vowels so don't get confused. ;)   Well, you will.

dominant vowels (claim stress)
a           = 'bark'
o           = 'lord'
u           = 'loose' (any example where u is spoken like that in English?)
auxillary vowels:
e           = 'twelve'
i            = 'this'

In the above mentioned form e and i appear only very seldom but are often used to weaken dominant vowels.
E.g. Nuthraen where the dominant a in the second syllabel is weakened to put the stress on the first syllabel. This way also other sounds can be created. The above ae would be equal to English than.


Note: Also mainly German sounds, I used English or some auxillary constructions for those I don't know a suiting letter for.

consonants
s  = 'sea'
th = 'that'
dd = 'thee'

h  = 'hollow'      
k  = 'cave'
ch = German 'Bach'
gh = German 'Licht'
g  = 'gull' at word endings it turns into German 'ck' a short 'k'
sh  = 'shine'

m        
n
ng  = 'ring', however it is used freely in words

r = a rolling r        

f

l


Grammer:
The grammer of Kh'om'chr'om is kept simple and are more or less sounding like variants of imperatives.
The usual structure is:
Verb Object Subject

Naturally the infinitve equals the imperative. In Orcish communities everything is spoken like an order. How it is preceived by the receiver of the message depends heavily on the status of both sides. If he is lower than the speaker, it is taken right as an order or a fact, if he his equal he will take it as a question or suggestion, if he is higher as a challenge.

The Kh'om'chr'om has only very limited tenses to express more complicate situations:
All past tenses are summarized under the 'Narrative', with which every event that lies in the past is described. There's another variant of the 'Narrative' but it is only used to tell myths and legendary epics. It is sometimes called the 'historical Narrative' because these stories are usually the only way for Orc clans to memorize their history.
Future tenses are all included in the present tense, eventually only distinguished by time-describing words like "now", "then" or "tomorrow".
Conjunctives(if-cases) only exist formulated as questions.
Example: "If he goes to the pond he'll be dead" is formulated "Is he going to the pond? He is dead!" or when using Kh'om'chr'om sentence structure something like: "Is going to the pond he? Dead is he!"

Questions are introduced with the auxillary word "Oi" that has no meaning for itsself but only serves the purpose to get anyone's attention.


Notes:

The only cases for nouns are Object, Genetive and Nominative

The Orcs only use word roots which are then transformed into verb, noun, adjectives and adverbs.

Orcish is rather difficult because prepposition do not exist but are merged into the word.

"In front of a/the cave" would be translated into "Gorb'nach"
in which case the syllabels "Gorb"(cave) and "Nach"(in front of) are stressed.

"gorbrech" would mean "dig" literally "make a cave"

"gorbaith" would mean "hollow" or also "empty"

The Orcish often uses very metaphoric combinations to create words thus often the meaning of a word can be only understood in association with the situation in which it is used. E.g.,  wether it is an empty glass or a hollow tree.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 1/8/03 6:06:28 pm


Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 01 January 2003, 09:23:00
Hmmm... maybe even the Genetive can be replaced by prepositions but I don't know if this wouldn't look too longwinded.

Things to do:
-general declinations for noun and verbs
-pronouns
-prepositions

-Adjective, Adverb will be possibly all inherited from a root noun.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Viresse on 01 January 2003, 13:08:00
I love the Oi thing. That's so cool! I can't wait to learn Orcish...
*pretends*
Oi! Gris'shug' ghot'chuk'nug!
*giggles*


*pokey de Viresse at viresse@santharia.com* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Greybark on 01 January 2003, 13:10:00
What is a mimic?


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Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Viresse on 01 January 2003, 13:12:00
I'm not entirely sure. Maybe another word would be better understood. Maybe Grimace? Sneer?


*pokey de Viresse at viresse@santharia.com* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 01 January 2003, 13:20:00
Please don't torture the German guy!
Mimic is an English word and does exist!
German Mimik = facial expression, mimic, mimic art  

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Viresse on 01 January 2003, 13:26:00
Mimic in English , is an act of copying another's actions in hope to become that thing.

Like some butterfly wing patterns MIMIC the trees and flowers they feed upon to avoid being eaten.

We're trying not to torture you. It is an english word, I just wasn't sure if THAT was the meaning you wanted.


*pokey de Viresse at viresse@santharia.com* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...

Edited by: Viresse  at: 12/31/02 7:27:49 pm


Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Greybark on 01 January 2003, 13:28:00
Ah!
Expression!
Now I understand!


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Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 01 January 2003, 14:23:00
Expression then if that is any better? German knows both equivalents but  does not care which one you use. Stupid English! :b  

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Greybark on 01 January 2003, 14:25:00


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Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Viresse on 06 January 2003, 22:26:00
yeah. Stupid english.
So many words that mean the same thing.

Said
replied
exclaimed
retorted
barked
yapped
snapped
squealed
screamed
yelled
bellowed
boomed

I could go on...


*pokey de Viresse at viresse@santharia.com* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 07 January 2003, 08:00:00
Just to make sure the basics are clear: Does the sound list make enough sense or is it still too confusing?

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Viresse on 07 January 2003, 14:02:00
it makes sense; I don't know how to speak german so all the german examples don't work for me.


*pokey de Viresse at viresse@santharia.com* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Greybark on 07 January 2003, 23:11:00
Do you know the scottish word loch for lake? Like loch ness monster? I'm pretty sure that has the same sound as bach in german.


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Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Viresse on 08 January 2003, 01:17:00
right.
But Gang?
I see that and think
gAAAAAAAAng.

and Licht?
Leekt.

Those words are kinda easy; there's no accents.
But still, the fear of screwing up...


*pokey de Viresse at viresse@santharia.com* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...

Edited by: Viresse  at: 1/7/03 7:19:21 am


Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 08 January 2003, 13:44:00
Well, that's a bit of a problem because some of these sounds do not exist in English. It is esspecially difficult to explain in a written media. When you say so, Grey, I'll replace it with that example, when you have other ones fitting to explain that to the non-English speakers, you're welcomed.

For the 'ng':

Well, it is a sound similar to the "G"(like in 'gang') but instead of releasing the sound you let the air escape slowly.

Have no better explanation how it is supposed to sound. :



Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Greybark on 08 January 2003, 21:50:00
Don't wait for me too long Koldie, I don't speak German.


Brownie Expert



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Viresse on 08 January 2003, 22:55:00
like ...
gaaaan?
or gahhhhng?

Perhaps if someone had the ability to record sounds...  


*pokey de Viresse at viresse@santharia.com* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Greybark on 09 January 2003, 03:50:00
computer microphones start pretty cheap. That's what I used for Browniin sounds.


Brownie Expert



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 09 January 2003, 12:03:00
Me stupid!I hate being stupid! bad Koldar! Bad! *bangs head against wall*

I got a bit confused by a Tolkien site describing sound system and pronounciations and stuff. "ng" is used like in English "gang" or "ring". It's the vocals that are different in German here!
The only thing is that ng is used in orcish not only at the end of a word but also anywhere else and at start.

Sorry for causing confusion. :  

Well, ch was the sound not existing in English per se... but anything with two letters is usually a special case anyway so rather difficult to describe.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 1/8/03 6:04:14 pm


Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Viresse on 09 January 2003, 15:18:00
Oh!
Guh!
That sound.

*nods*
Okay! Now everythings' fine. I left a note at the Styrash board explaining English vowels. Maybe that can help explain our lack of accents...?

Anyway.
Yeh.


*pokey de Viresse at viresse@santharia.com* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Greybark on 09 January 2003, 22:05:00
cool.....lots of that in cantonese...
ngoh ngao ng........maybe I should record that one.....


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Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 10 January 2003, 10:22:00
I don't want to learn another language!

But it looks great, Koldar, will help to explain some of these sounds to our english speaking people
Btw, these German sounds are mostly the same for latin, italian, spanish and so on, so problem is,you use your english way to pronounce these languages as well, sounds funny to me sometimes, lol
Greybark, you are right, "ch" in Bach is the same as "ch" in loch, scottish has a lot of these nice words
"It's a brought, brecht moonlecht necht tonecht"
(It is a brought, bright moonlight night tonight"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 1/9/03 4:26:20 pm


Title: Re: Orcish for beginners - Kh'om'chr'om ;)
Post by: Viresse on 10 January 2003, 13:58:00
y'all got spiffy sounds!
So jealous.


*pokey de Viresse at viresse@santharia.com* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Ummmm...
Post by: Addron DeGera on 29 January 2004, 21:03:00
I'm new to the forums, though not to Santharia an all that. I'm just wondering, why do you have so many ' in the word? Kh'om'ch'om????? I don't know, maybe it's just me, but wouldn't somthing like Fnackhfu fit better? all the words like chéléréàå'khóláúör.. you get my idea then...... I make languages of my own, Ësailasin, Khazzanur, Súvannin, Nau'Gwar, Almaeyeyn, Altaen,  and Cazacazs. I never use so many symbols, I dunno, if you hate what I'm saying, I'm sorry, but I felt I needed to say it.

Tánulé lananai thëla Ösatar pésa.
[In hope and peace, for I leave now.]



Title: Re: Ummmm...
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 30 January 2004, 04:23:00
Well, maybe we like it? Or to indicate a break, an intermission?

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Ummmm...
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 30 January 2004, 06:42:00
For Kh'om'ch'om you're right. I imported this from older entries but the many apostrophes make it unspeakable. I have not decided yet if I use any symbols at all though in the other examples it is used to mark the combination of different word roots.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight



Title: sorry...
Post by: Addron DeGera on 30 January 2004, 15:53:00
Again, I am sorry if I bothered anyone. I just think that many who come to this site might not be so fluent in á and ëé and such. All of those marks just seem to make it harder to speak. I can't say how I like the elvish, I am yet to find a long and "wordy" poem or passage written in Styrásh. I'm all for creativity and that, don't get me wrong. All the marks just confuse me. I use orkish sounds like ckh(super "k", think Klingon) fngsh, rh, hr, ngk, things like to make phrases such as this.... Fu'Mackhtackh horngor gûngtackh hranshackh! (Not* not a really phrase, the only part that has any real meaning is Fu'Mackhtackh horngor, the rest is just an idea.

       I do like your Merfish though, fun stuff. I've tried it, it ain't easy.....but I wish I knew Hebrew...and German...and Sindarin..and Quenya...and Swahilí...and..oh! Sorry. errr....I'm rambling...uhg..
Ösatar! [I leave]



Title: Re: sorry...
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 30 January 2004, 17:52:00
I'm sorry if I bother you now but from first impression your language seems to have an aweful amount of letters  to describe a sound. Things like gh, ch or something are okay but more than two letters make long consonant sequences who seem weird in a way.

However I also thought about introducing another soound (speaking about super k;) ). KH, a sound harder and more gutteral than the German 'ch'

Anyway, I wish I'd have time to think more about orcish for beginners. I hope you enjoy your stay at Santharia. For my part I have nothing against some feedback. :)  


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight



Title: alas, one more thing..
Post by: Addron DeGera on 02 February 2004, 08:31:00
I am not bothered, I have my reasons...first off, I don't make ocs, trolls, brari(Rat wolf-minitor-without the horns.), they don't write, it's the extreme harshness of sounds I'm trying to convey. ck = ka, but ckh= kha, I mean the brutal sounds, extreames one finds in a language like Kiligon. Another good way to make it inhuman and unnatural sounding, is if you all throat hacks, growling, spiting, and snorting as parts of the verbal alphabet. As such is used with D@D orkish, and bugbearish, trollish is werid, "Ish mish funtaaaah" but that is beside the point, I used to have a writting system, but dropped it. I now can use random letters for orckish wirting, since any lanugauge or writting style one tribe made, would be completly different from another tribe. But anywho...just an idea.
          Ösatar pésa, éulé 'anai lan ídhu hínacírsa.
farewell....Ëríë!



Title: ahhhhh.....try this website for all your creating orkish...
Post by: Addron DeGera on 02 February 2004, 08:48:00
..needs.. brinja.bei.t-online.de/Bl...Index.html A black speech and orkish dictionary. Should help with streamlining orkish..or Kh'or??? anywho.... Mu'ackh! Mu'ackh! Hordgor...[death to men, death to men..] Pish pashook! [he be food!] but that is my made up language of Cazacazs, common wild speech. Delveloped by goblins, and taught to the wild races so that they could organize armies more easily. It's all just one big cuss word.ex...@#%$ = cut. it also has about 100 words for kill, afew are .....Fu'mackhtackh, pish'hackh, ish'hackh, mu'ackhtackh.... Have fun with it.
nurangk! [bye]