Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Races, Tribes and Clans => Topic started by: Feanor the Grey on 06 August 2002, 22:11:00



Title: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 06 August 2002, 22:11:00
Ok, this is our first step.

First, we need a zoomed version of the Santharian map on the region of Avennoria, especially the province of Mantria where the Avennorians are mostly.

Second, we need a little hand from our Worldbuilding collegues to tell us what are the resources that are available in this region. ESPECIALLY the unknown resources to people living them.

Third, fill in the blanks

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 4:55:50 pm


Title: .
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 06 August 2002, 22:34:00
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Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 4:54:32 pm


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Viresse on 06 August 2002, 23:23:00
Hey. A Culture Builder?
Is that a Program?
I don't want you using Programs to make a Tribe.
That's taking all the work out of doing it. It's as if you're not even making it.
I don't want you to use the Culture Builder.
Okay?
That's not what Santharia's about.
Okay?
Okay?
So I don't want to see it.


*pokey de Viresse* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Capher on 07 August 2002, 04:59:00
Vireese, before there is a huge debate over this culture builder between yourself and Feanor.  I would like for you to understand that this is just an experiment to see if this would work.  Feanor is having difficulties with Chrondra, a town of the Avennorian's and has suggested this "cb" as a way for him to help him.

It seems he has some experience in this matter as he has designed other worlds using this "cb"   So for the sake of non-argument here I have agreed to allow him to use the Avennorian's as his experiment.  Who knows?  It may enrich the details and entry.  Or it may be a dismal flop?  But I think it should at least be given a chance.  Ok?

Feanor- I believe there is a map showing the area of the Avennorian's on the site,  I also believe there is a resource map, at least I think there was one being created at the time I left, I do not know whether it was finished.

Capher.



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 07 August 2002, 11:26:00
I understand Viresse, but if you followedt he discussion in the Maps and Places about Chrondra, you wouldn't have said that. We are using the CB to make out the Avennorians, not necessarily to use it as the official format SD will use you know.

Once we finish the entire culture with the CB, there is a big chance that we incorporate our information in the SD Format. So, no big changes here Viresse, the only thing is that it will add much more colour and details about the Avennorians and maybe other cultures too if the SD team finds this very interesting. :)

Don't worry, before the CB destroys any cultures, I think SD will destroy itself, meaning that's it's totally impossible to destroy something with it,well, not as long as you are working with the creator of the place anyways, like Capher for the Avennorians.

So this resumes what has been already said in the maps and places thread of this forum in the Chrondra topic. Hope it reassures you Viresse. Listen, I am an experienced world builder here, I know what is good for a world and what is bad, and trust me, you really need this to detail and make your work look even more concrete and pertinent in the end. :)

Capher, you have any ideas what I've missed about the resources? And we would need a hand on those hidden assets and neighboring assets. Who might know such a thing?

Also, I'll check out a bit the maps on SD site in case there was a better detailed map of the region. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 07 August 2002, 13:57:00
I'll wait another day for people to post ideas and comments and go to the next step.

I've edited the description a bit, adde stuff sinceI informed myself a bit and found a few new things. So if anyone has any objections about the info or anything more to add, please tell. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Viresse on 07 August 2002, 15:13:00
* sits real quiet.*


*pokey de Viresse* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 07 August 2002, 15:37:00
Yup, we've had a little discussion in the Places Chrondra thread, so we'll see... Thanx for your concerns:)

Well, as for the zoomed map: Just grab the Santharian one and enlarge it extremely (you should be able to do that with any painting program) and cut out your part. Doesn't look pretty, but it should only serve as a sketch where to place which village, resources etc. Propose to put more detailed places names on such a rough map, and resources maybe on another.

Well, you write: "No one knows of these veins, not even the dwarves." This is a nice God position, but you should write the entries as if a Santharian (living in this land) describes it. Just try to avoid similar things. You can suppose however that there are still veins, but you can't know if you're a Santharian.

Hope Thuja can provide some information on what ore can be found in the Mithral. Guess we said gold sometime in the southern Mithral as she wanted to write a story here if I'm not wrong.

Rest looks nice from the first glance, maybe adjacent tribemasters can put in their two sans here as well:)  


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Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Thuja on 07 August 2002, 16:51:00
All mining in the Mithral Mountains done by the dwarves.  Since you are doing this and Artimidor has asked there is gold in the southern part of the mountains.  It is mined by the residents of Tyr Ethran.  The two northern enclaves would find some mithril, but very rarely, and silver. All would have other metals in varying amounts.  Exactly what, Bard Judith would know.

There is no coal and no petroleum.  That also means no diamonds.  Other precious or semi-precious stone have not been worked out yet.  That is something Bard Judith was trying to figure out along with other trade items.

Dwarves are excellent miner and would not need magic to get to any metal or to extract said metals.  That is what they do and are the sole miners in these mountains. Most found metals are used for trade.

If you read the the description on the Mithral Mountains you would see there are no isolated stands of trees.  If you are thinking of a certain kind of wood then most likely you will need to invent it and put it in your isolated area.

It hasn't been fully detailed yet but Marcogg has well developed trade routes extending in all directions.  Most trade goods would be coming in by the many trade routes, both by land and the rivers to them.  Most things would be available even if some would be very expensive.  There are grains, fruit and fish near Marcogg that would used as trade items.  There are water wheel mills along Vildegg Bend for making flour and what not.  Also the Nekoma Valley is covered in grasses and would be a good place for herds of cattle and what not.  But that still needs to be decided.

That is just a few things to think about.

"In a place like this, the magic is all around you, the trick is to see it."



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Capher on 08 August 2002, 07:47:00
*Blinks* Thuja, I forgot all about Marcogg and what you had done there.  Forgive me please.  And the information on the Mithril mountains I did not know.  Thank you for providing it.

I guess Feanor you really should search the site for all relevant information.  

Capher.



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 08 August 2002, 12:07:00
Well, petrollium, coal and diamond are pretty easy to figure out, just check out the most ancient parts of the world and verify if they had life on them since the beginning and if they had large forests, etc. This would solve the petrollium/coal/diamond prob. :)  

Also, dwarvees are very good miners like in every other fantasy world where there are dwarves, but as good as they might be they are only mortals and do not have the power of omniscience, so they do not know the location and existance of every metal veins every where, they might know what is in their mines and surrounding it, but not throughout the land. Sorry, but it's true.

Also, I've edited the post above so it would suit your ideas of the region as well as adding the missing data you mentioned all of you. :)  

And we are doing the descendants of the Avennorians here, the Manthrians or people from Manthria, not the dwarves. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/7/02 7:24:36 pm


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 08 August 2002, 15:24:00
Once again: Sentences like "No one knows of these veins, not even the dwarves" should not be in the final entry!

Also don't forget that there exist more detailed maps of the region, which Bard Judith has done in preparation for the MUD, see Nekoma Valley and Adanian Seacoast.


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Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 08 August 2002, 17:21:00
I'm with Viresse on this, I must say. Yea yea, you already discussed it, but that doesn't mean others can't still have their say. There simply isn't imagination in using a program. If your having troubles with an entry the answer isn't 'use a program', it's sit and think a bit.

If Feanor can't handle designing towns or cultures without using a program maybe he should find something easier. This just seems like he's using the chance to try and make Santharia more like his world. I'm sure he'll deny it, yea. He said it'd probably go into the SD format anyway. But you never know.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 08 August 2002, 22:12:00
Tarq: First of all, it's not a program, so don't comment on things you don't know and didn't follow, and second, what the heck is the prupose of your post? It doesn't give us anything, no ideas, no new things to add, nothing, just whining and agreeing with someone else. and read the entire topic before saying something!

We don't need that kind of post and I'm pretty sure that we don't want that here. If you can't help, save forum space and post elsewhere please.

No offense, but if you wanna help, try something a bit more creative and helpful.

Artimidor: What do you mean it can't be like that? Ok, maybe for the player version it's understandable, but for the gm's? I don't mind, but its fact and truth, not myths and legends here. If there are resources there, there are, if there is none, there is none, no? Of course someone could add some magically, but that's something else. It's ok though, it's only to build the culture and has nothing to do really with the region itself.

So whether there are dwarves or not, doesn't matter, we're doing the Manthrian, the descendants of the Avennorians here. So this is only an aid or guide to build the culture, we're not describing the area, just taking the things that are already there, no invention or anything new here.

Subsitance pattern following this post.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/8/02 5:16:47 am


Title: .
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 08 August 2002, 22:27:00
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Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 4:55:23 pm


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Viresse on 08 August 2002, 23:48:00
...


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The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 09 August 2002, 01:24:00
No worry, Viresse, nothing against you or what you say. Anyways, whatever you say, I'll listen more than anyone else since you are Mod of this forum and everyone likes you so much in the SD team. :)  

forgot, thanks Artimidor for the links to these maps. :)  

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/8/02 8:25:50 am


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 09 August 2002, 04:34:00
Third time (I keep on repeating): All entries in Santharia are written from the position of a Santharian local, gathered in the book called the "Santharian Compendium", published by Artimidor Federkiel (a Santhalan sage) in 1660 Santharian time (see entry). No Gods write entries in this tome.


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World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 09 August 2002, 14:47:00
LOL, okay

anyways, it's only for reference, it's not something that is going to be official you know. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 09 August 2002, 22:43:00
I was being quite helpful, I was helping a friend. I'm sure you're quite angry that not everyone is saying "Oh yay, the nice man who has so much experience is going to teach all us stoopid newbies how to do things right!", but that's the way it goes now isn't it? Not everyone reads through all the forums all the time, and since other people got to have their say on the world builder subject in the other thread, then what's wrong with others having their say here?

And until now you never said anything about it not being a program, you never explained anything about it at all. You apparently showed it to Capher, maybe some other people, but I never got to see it, neither did Viresse. So don't go complaining about how no one else knows anything about it, because that's your fault for not explaining it.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 August 2002, 04:45:00
Well, Feanor has introduced his culture building concept in the Chrondra thread in the Places Forum.


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Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Capher on 10 August 2002, 06:40:00
Hm... Feanor, I am not quite understanding what you are doing?  Are these posts just research for the final entry or is these what you are planning on putting in the final entry?

I am somewhat confused.  I hope they are just research.  The Avennorians were a human species, though ancient, nevertheless they were and if by fisher folks, you are describing people who live off of the ocean, then you have the correct idea.  If however you are implying they are some kind of wierd species just because of their genetic ability to dive under water and handle pressures of the deep much more than ordinary humans then you are wrong.

As far as the resources in the area, for research purposes, I suppose there could be petroleum, but they would not know how to drill for such things and I do not believe they would even know what to with it if they did find it.  To them it would be a death trap if it was near the surface, somewhat like an oil bog.  We use other types of oil or candles to give us light in Sarvonia.  Oil of whales is what the Avennorians use because the ocean is where they use and recieve most of their resources.

Look up the Inuits, or Eskimo's to understand where I got my idea for the Avennorians.  They have not been swallowed up by the local population, or by their conquerors.  They are still a very simple people living like they did thousands of years ago, albiet some have adapted to technology and use them, but for the most part they still live the way they always did.  I just added some things to make the Avennorians special, and to be part of the world of Santharia.

And by the way the motherland of these people are in Northern Sarvonia and came from the descendants of the Naval warriors of Fa'av'aclar led by Glandor.  Which, after the war, settled on the far eastern shores of Northern Sarvonia and built the port of Glandoria among other towns and villages in that area.  See the Exodus of the tribes after the destruction of the Elven empire Fa'av'aclar.

Thanks, oh yeah one more thing.  The dwarves live underground, they are the ones that would know about any mineral veins, not the Avennorians.  Though I believe Bard Judith and I were discussing ways for them to trade between the two.

Remember above everything else the Avennorians and Santharia is a magical place, anything can happen.  Even people living in homes built out of nothing but finely crushed sea shells.  They crave beauty and wealth above everything.

To live in a home where the sun shines through and you live in a perpetual rainbow would be an Avennorian's dream. But because of the expense, only the richest of them could do so.  Imagine a city built of these homes, when the sun shone upon them it would radiate a rainbow of colors you could see for miles.  That was and is my idea of what Marcogg (their Captol city) would look like by an outsider riding up for the first time and seeing the city.  Just imagine it.  Close your eyes and just try and see it in your minds eye.

I think that is what Tarq and Viresse and the others are trying to tell you.  To create something, magical like that, you need imagination, not just the resources.  Don't take away the imagination and the dream by letting your desire for logic to overcome imagination.  There are many things today that cannot be logically explained, for example the "Great Pyramid" cannot be logically explained how it was built.  But we know it was for we can see it.  We can admire the structure and wonder how the ancient people of that time built it.

That is how I envision people when they take a look at the Santharian Dream  They would not know how it was done, they would just admire and be awed by the imagination, beauty and wonder of it all.

Thanks for listening to my heart.  

Capher.



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 10 August 2002, 17:12:00
No wonder everyone likes you, Capher. :lol  

And yea, I know where he introduced the concept, but it wasn't explained, just that you could build cultures with it, and that it would make things easier.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 8/10/02 12:14:08 am


Title: All to Capher. :)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 11 August 2002, 00:57:00
Capher, read the full CB doc in the maps and places in the topic about Chrondra, you'll understand perfectly what is meant by fisherfolk here.

By the way, the inuits live in the far north, and are not living in a temperate or sub-tropical region squeezed between several other cultures. Besides, the inuits are not colonists, they have been there since the last ice age, are alone in their ice lands and in contact rarely with their southern brethren. So no, it would be very hard for a small group of colonist to retain their culture after several thousands of years, that is why I proposed we found an alternate solution, like mass colonization of the area that was then decimated by the chosen war cutting pop in two, so returning to a more acceptable amount for the region, then the war with the elves would have sucked their last inch of power until the Erpheronians broke their back and put Erpheronian nobles at the head of the province.

The Avennorians still exist, and probably still dream of their indepedance some day, we could invent a secret society that works against the kingdom, which would make it even more realistic and add a little spice to the region. :)  

Just to tell you that I didn't plan to change the Avennorians much, just look at the town map of Chrondra (dunno if Artimidor posted it somewhere though) and you'll see lots of hovels, these hovels are made the Avennorian way, but other larger more durable buildings are made in modern ways. Let's face it, what would you say to the people of one of the states of the USA that was still iving in the style of the 17th century? I think the other states would laugh and try to modernize it, no?

Same thing here, there are probably traditionalists in the province of Manthria and also further south, but they would only be found in small towns and all the villages, but the main cities and towns would be modern with a few houses or hovels kept as either historical monuments or sacred buildings.

Well, that' s what I think and see for this topic at least. :)  

I know about the Dwemer..err.. Dwarves (Darn Morrowind, I play too much. :D   ) that they live underground. But even an underground race isn,t omniscient and doesn't know everything there is to know in a particuliar region underground, somethings are always hidden, even from the best. So the hidden assets are hidden both from Manthric Avennorians amd Dwarves. We should include also the hidden resources the dwarves do not share with the Avennorians too, it would be logical, no?

I have nothing against having a seashell house, but you would need powerful magic to keep the seashell's colour and compositions throughout the centuries. These house should cost a fortune, making a house out of seashells... well... you need lots and lots of sea shells. Making a city in this way would depopulate the entire population of shellfish in the region, if not making it go extinct, same goes for whale bones too. Logically, only the most powerful and rich would have a small house made out of seashells and/or whale bones, not everyone. But nothing prevents people from having decorative wor made out of seashells and whalebone in their house, but nothing bigger than a decoration unless they are rich enough to get these things or have the skills and resources to build them. BTW, you don,t mention much about the magic of the Avennorians, just wonder how powerful they could be and how often they use magic, is it common or rare among them? And yes, it would be very nice to have teh capital city all in seashell and whale bones and other sea products, but it would be more a magical city or a an undersea city of mermaids or something like that. If the Avennorians aren't powerful in magic, well, it would make them cartoonish and not fantastic if their city owuld be made out of permanent and understructible and undamageable by time and weather, seashells. Normally, after you have taken out of its water a seashell, it will gradually lose it glint and colour and after a while, will beccome white and brittle. So if you say the Avennorians are powerful magicians, even though they could only have a few very powerful ones too, it will make it logical for a lord to pay a or some wizards to enchants his castle and even some of the rich houses of the city with a durability spell or something that prevents or slows degradation and decay.
So if that is true, no prob for me there. Remember, there is a reason of existence for everything, you cannot make something out of nothing because you simply want it, you must see it through the people's eyes and how and why they would do it. How = magic, Why = it's beautiful. I agree, it's a great idea though. :)  

Will you stop it with imagination and logic! You can't mix up the two together, they aren't the same thing. What I mean is you cannot mix oranges with apples. And if you want to make a world, it has to be logical, or everyone will laugh at it because it would lack common sense and integrity, not mentioning logic. A world can be extremely imaginative, like mine, and still be very logical. So don't come saying again to me that a world of imagination cannot be logical, and especially don't tell me that you want to make things based on imagination and not on logic, because you will be drowning yourself. The only world you could do only based on imagination, is a cartoon world where nothig makes sense, so if some people can't understand that the SD isn't a cartoon world and is a logical living world, not some silly ultra-unrealistic cartton thingy then go back to school or ask your parents or even better, take a dictionary and read the definition of both terms (Sorry, I'm just tired of people that doesn't know the difference between logic and imagination, and worldbuilders that says that they can make a world out of imagitation alone without logic.). Like I mentioned earlier, you cannot have a city made out of seashells that do not perish, if you want to do that, (like you said, the SD is a magical place) you would need magic, and if you want magic, you need a magician, and the magician will need components and many assistants to successfully make this happen, and would require and enormous amount of time (depending on how powerful magic is in the SD) to enchant the buildings, etc. See, it's fantastic to the extreme, but it's still logical and your idea is still there, so don,t come talking about logic anf imagination again unless the creators of the SD are making a cartoon world. I wont argue then. lol

Like you force people to do in the character creation when someone says his character has a mysterious past or has amnesia and doesn't remember a thing (two way thing you know). The player doesn't know these things, or the reader wont know these things, but the dms will know, and the creators will know, exactly the same way you guys tell people that if a player's character has amnesia doesn't mean the player doesn't know his past, same goes for the mysterious background. Every world needs a dm's view and a player's view. Unless you are writing a book, you will need both of these things in the end. Facts a very important for the dm's part, while myths and legends and approx are a must for player version.

In conclusion, if you plan to make a fantasy world, not a cartoon world, you will need logic or it will become cartoonish and incoherent if not chaotic. the Avennorians don't disappear, they just get modern, only the small villages and smallest towns would still have primitive buildings of the sort. Inside the biggest cities, the most rich and powerful would have permanent seashell and/or whale bones decorated houses or mansions with the help of some long term enchantment that needs renewal each ten years or so, maybe less. AND the fisherfolk is a term to say that the people in Manthria's main food industry is fishing supported by some farming and herding and a little foraging.

That's alot and all, be back if you say something more. But you haven't said if you agreed or not in the way I described their subsistance pattern btw. :)  

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/10/02 8:01:40 am


Title: .
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 12 August 2002, 00:31:00
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Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 4:56:45 pm


Title: .
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 12 August 2002, 00:38:00
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Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 4:57:41 pm


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 12 August 2002, 15:42:00
Alright, I was wrong, I missed it. I'm one of the people who skipped over it because I didn't want a new format for Santharia. And after reading through it I still don't, nor do I like the culture builder any more than from the start. It just doesn't seem right. Like a mutiple choice test.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Capher on 13 August 2002, 06:05:00
Tarquet were you laughing at me? When you said that?  Or was that a compliment?

Feanor.  I would like to see how each time you build this it is fitting in with the SD outline?  I have no idea what questions you are asking?  Your posts are so long and so involved that I get confused.  Sorry, but if you could put the your format as in a Question and then possible answers I would under stand better.  

And if you could put your Question in bold type such as Kinship   Then type in your question according to your WB, then the possible answers you are looking for in outline form A,123, B123, Ect.  Then I could help you out I think a little better.

Now as far as the capitol made of seashells.  You have a mindset of what I call "Uniformitarism"  Which is simply used by evoloutionists that claim that as "Things that happen now are how they were in the past"  Which is totally false, (and I do not believe in evoloution anyway. I mean Macro not Micro, ) but to get back to my point.  Just because seashells may lose their color and luster in "Our World" does not mean they do the same in "Santharia."  Just to give a small example.  There are many others I could say but it would take a book to write them all.

Now from an authors point of view, If you were writing a book about Santharia, You would not put in every little detail as to how certain tribes, or cities developed.  Oh, you would put in descriptions of that tribe, or city but just enough to give the reader a picture not a scientific analysis!!!

The author, yes he would know, at least to the extent of being able to write intelligently about that certain tribe or city, but what he knows is not necessarily what the reader needs to know.  The reader himself/herself puts their own imagination and experiences into what he/she is reading along with the authors description.  

They need not know how for example: where the seashells came from, they would just be told that the capitol and some of the more richer people of that city had houses built of them. They would know from thier own knowledge and experiences that seashells come from the sea.  But as to how the Avennorian's built their capitol out of them, they really wouldn't care unless the information was needed to move the story along. They would just accept that what they are reading is fact for this world.

Do you understand what I am trying to get at and what the others are trying to say; Tarquet, Vireese, Art and so on?

Now as far as your question about whether it is Patriarichol lineage or not?  The inheritance's and so forth in the family unit is determined by who was the wealthiest, If you look at my tribal description you will see that either male or female could be the head of the family, or the Monarch of the country.  It was determined by thier wealth and then passed down to whomever the Monarch or head of the family at the time that they died to whom they desired, as historical tradition it was passed down to the wealthiest of the family member, except in rare cases.

At the time of Santhros, (present day) the tradition still remains among the Avennorian's.  Whether they became a mixed culture or not?  Those who adhere to their original lineage respect and follow tradition!!!

Capher.



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Viresse on 13 August 2002, 11:01:00
*frowns at the whole CB thing but reads on*


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Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 13 August 2002, 15:05:00
Well, as far as I see with this seashell problem demonstrates very well two different ways of thinking, but there are always more solutions to a problem, you can't simply put logic against pure fantasy (comic fantasy as you say, Feanor) or the other way round. You should always look for an effective compromise, which gives the whole idea some more magic and life. If you want to put logic in the first place, you won't come far, if you only go for "comic fantasy" without explaining background this won't help either.

I agree that not all buildings should be made of seashells, this would be a bit unrealistic, but having very important buildings constructed from seasheels sounds cool and has the fantastical touch which I prefer. And forget the magic, magic is a high science, a very special thing, not to be used in common buildings.

So I propose a compromise: We could anchor the Avennorian society deeper in the belief of Baveras, Goddess of the Sea, so that seashells have a very high importance for the Avennorians, a religious importance if you want. People know that the sea renews their lives constantly and as a sign of this natural process they could make the seashells parts of their homes, which they ritually expand and/or renew at the Feast of the Blessing of the Seas, which they celebrate annually.

Nowadays maybe much of this tradition is lost, but maybe there's still this famous seashell castle in the capital, which people still adore...


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World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 13 August 2002, 15:22:00
I understand what you say, but we are creating a world here not writing a book right? I mean, how can you write a book with so many people and so many different points of view, it can't be done, well, not in a short period of time at least.


As for the Avennorians, it's ok, I'll swithc them to bilateral no prob there. Like I said, I wasn't usre how they looked like in the modern day.

Atrimidor, Capher, i think we all agree about the seashell buildings, I think we are arguing about something that we all have the same point of view. As an example, we all said that only the richest and more powerful would be able to have their house made out of seashells and whale bones, as well as important buildings, historical, holy, and/or traditional buildings too. So I think we do not need to argue about this point any further or we will look silly arguing about something that we all agree upon. LOL

Like I said Artimidor, I too like the idea of a seashell/whalebone castle and manors, but you would need magic to do it, it could not be done unless the seashells themselves were magical.

From Artimidor:
"We could anchor the Avennorian society deeper in the belief of Baveras, Goddess of the Sea, so that seashells have a very high importance for the Avennorians, a religious importance if you want. People know that the sea renews their lives constantly and as a sign of this natural process they could make the seashells parts of their homes, which they ritually expand and/or renew at the Feast of the Blessing of the Seas, which they celebrate annually.

Nowadays maybe much of this tradition is lost, but maybe there's still this famous seashell castle in the capital, which people still adore... "

sounds ok to me, maybe such a magical process is lost too. Maybe only some very unique persons could now build such things since the Erpheronian invasion and it would take a whole adventure just to find one of these persons. What do you guys think? Souns good no?

Oh, and Capher, I would like to put some words or sentences in bold or italic sometimes, but I don't know how. :
lol

I have updated the values and kinship according to what you say and may have added one or two things. :)  



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 13 August 2002, 15:30:00
Except that that's what all these entries are about, writing a book. The Compendium was written by Arti in Santharia, big sage dude. The entire Compendium is a book, and the entries should be treated as an entry in it.

And it's a compliment, Capher.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 8/12/02 10:30:55 pm


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 13 August 2002, 23:21:00
Next stop is language, I think this part is going to be very interesting to all the WB. :)  

I really added things to the Values and Kinship like I said in my last post. Just a thing or two. ;)  



Language: Language bonds groups linked in the far distant past but now separated by distance and lifestyle. This is perhaps the most crucial element for constructing cultures, since language is indicative of how people thinks and expresses its thoughts. Common language roots produce a related pattern of thought, and manifestations of this tie can appear in the way people act or in the objects they produce.

       The first thing the WB should do when dealing with this element is to construct a language tree showing the original tongues and all their offspring. Ideally, this will be a drawing with lines representing the steps along the families’ branches. This gives the WB a picture of what language are related and how closely; he more steps along the branches between two tongues, the further apart their ways. Should two languages derive from altogether separate families, the associated cultures normally have tremendous difficulty in communicating and understanding each other.

       A society’s setting and subsistence patterns act to affect language over time. After all, an experience with something gives insight into its details, and new words and phrases are adopted to explain the specific concept. Cultures with no life experience might have no word or only a general word for the idea. In such a case, the details might escape them, making peripheral ideas hard to explain.

       The following rough methods can help the WB construct the basic pattern of a language, and might spawn more detailed vocabulary and grammar should the need arise. One or more charts with headings and columns covering these points prove invaluable.

A)        Language tree: Draw up a language tree keeping in mind the place where the base tongue originated, and noting the type of culture that first employed it. That setting and associated lifestyle should affect the way the language family was first conceived.

B)        Mapping tongue: Assign the language to specific cultures located on your world/campaign map. Those whose lifestyles are similar and/or intended to be related in race, spirit or locale might use related tongues.


C)        Dialects: Then connect each tongue’s linguistic sub-groupings (dialects or archaic tongues) to segments of society. Certain classes and isolated sub-cultures often embrace their own dialect.

D)        Literacy: Based on the society’s technological level, note whether there is any form of writing, and to what extent it is employed. Distinguish between differences found in the written and spoken words, accounting for the various dialects and any forms of ceremonial or shorthand (cursive) writing.


E)        Writing forms: Note the writing form of major literate language groups. Consider whether they use pictographs, abstract symbols to express whole concepts, a syllabic alphabet, a phonetic alphabet, etc. A sample graphic might help.

F)        Sounds: Give each major language groups some unique features, such as the use of certain consonant or vowel sound combinations to express specific concepts. Note how plurals might be formed, or words combined.

G)        Vocabulary and grammar: Then embark on specifics, such as the vocabulary or grammar of a given dialect. Keeping in mind the overall scheme of the language family, use a few basic foundations, such as a series of “root words” to tie together other words expressing similar or vaguely related concepts.

Remember, in terms of game play communication may be the key to survival in certain cases, and a number of language families and sub-groups can allow for a tremendous variety of campaign situations. A simple misunderstanding may produce a fight or a friendship where none is intended.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/13/02 6:24:17 am


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 August 2002, 04:38:00
Well, to be honest: I personally don't think that this kind of language details will be very helpful at the current stage of development of the tribe. I'd say: Concentrate on the more important things which will be essential to build places on this site and for the MUD. Too much focus on your World Builder thingies leads too much away from what we need here, and proves counter-productive at the moment (I guess most members of the Santharian development team think likewise - tell me if this shouldn't be the case). You can use your World Builder thingies if they support our current scheme, Feanor - this should be your main intention. We need to have progress here in the next weeks, no general discussion about life, the universe and everything.

Many things of this World Buidler scheme may be useful to a much later time of development, at the moment this seems mainly irritating, at least to me.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 8/13/02 11:40:05 am


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Capher on 14 August 2002, 05:40:00
As I have stated in a different thread Art I agree.  I was trying to be kind, but I was wrong.  Feanor, lets just drop this thing now.  I was an experiment anyways, and its not going to work.


I am terribly terribly sorry for all of the trouble I have caused, forgive me Art and the team for being shortsighted.

Capher.



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 August 2002, 13:38:00
Hey, no need to stop working on the Avennorians - I only want to emphasize that it is necessary to set priorities, what we really need. Parts of the world building system sure is helpful, but it shouldn't lead to scientific analysis and things like language details are pretty unimportant at the current stage of development I'd say (see also Gean's discussion at the General Santharian Discussions thread). But the Avennorians need to be elaborated nevertheless.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 14 August 2002, 14:24:00
Well, if you want to build a culture, you need to build it step by step like that. It tough, but it makes it look like a real culture like if it was part of a reaal world! So when we're going to read the Avennorian for example, we would think that these guys exists for real somewhere. That's the whole point of the CB, to make the cultures look real. But it's mostly for structure, pertinence, realism, and logic above all. I like to have structure in a world, without it, well, I think you probably know where the world will go if it doesn't have any structure. :)

I don't mind, I'll keep working on it on my own on my pc, and if you are interested to see the final version, just tell me and I'll post it here.

I don't understand why you say that it's a waste of time because you cannot build communities and talk about a people without knowing its culture first. anyways, your the booss. :)   But I really don't understand why you say that building a culture is not important at the moment, especially language, which is one of the foundation of a culture.

I'll try to figure out some town desc for Chrondra, but I don't guarantee anything, it's going to be mostly random things that I think, and I will use the little info I have from a primitive tribe description and the little info I was able to get in this topic.



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Thuja on 14 August 2002, 14:27:00
I will be rude.  I have finally followed this thread after my initial input.  This program to make a culture to describe an area and whatever else it does is great if you want a sterile world.  To use it for hints and ideas is great but the ideas fleshed out and any others should come from what is between a persons ears, not what some unthinking program says what should be where.  If a person works out an area and says there is not some mineral or fertile land or what ever than that is what it is.  Having someone come back later and saying that there is but you don't see or know it is there is not acceptable.  Or worse saying, according to this program, something has to be there because several thousands of years ago there was such and such making it so.  I can not accept this.  I don't care if the program says 10K animals died a day in a certain place so there must be oil.  If a person says there is no oil there is no oil.  Besides this person has not written that that these animals died here so therefore it can not and did not happen.  I don't care if there is a diamond the size of a persons fist in a farmers yard, as per a program statement.  This diamond does not exist until or when a person writes about this farmer digging a well and finding a diamond.  Even then the writer must come up with a reason the diamond is there in the first place.  It all comes back to imagination is what makes a world.  If there are problems in a certain area that is where the other people come in.  They ask question or show ideas, problems or what ever to help make the idea more workable

I do not like this heavy reliance on magic to make, find or do everything.  It is available and co-exists in a fantasy world but magic does not a fantasy world make.

You say you have vast experience in world building, then prove it.  Show us what YOU can do.  Anybody and slap a few words onto a program's output and say "Look at my world, isn't it wonderful, isn't great?"  Isn't it damn boring.


"In a place like this, the magic is all around you, the trick is to see it."



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 August 2002, 14:40:00
Well, of course you can build your own language trees for the Avennorians, own dialects, specific grammar and whatever, Feanor, providing you first elaborate the Tharian tongue in detail along with all it's modifications from day X till now. This will keep you busy for at least 3 years or so. Of course it would be fine to have, but we need to set priorities.

If you play Baldur's Gate for example and meet another character like a gnome for example and he talks to you in simple English, the RPG player usually doesn't question why this guy talks English with him. Of course you can build a whole culture on such a detail, and it is fine if it is done and works. But thinking practical common sense tells me there are more important problems at the moment than drawing language trees. These important things in order to build a rough culture have already been predefined by our scheme. Once again: You can use parts of your world builder system to make these sections richer in detail, but should never forget, that we have no intention to get into so much detail at the moment that all other world developing issues of a tribe have to be put on hold, because you give priority to a language tree, which - for our current world development scheme as well as for the MUD in progress - is of no relevance at all. Think practical, set priorities.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 14 August 2002, 15:49:00
Screw Baldur's Gate, play Neverwinter Nights. Not for any real examples or anything. It's just awesome.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Capher on 14 August 2002, 15:51:00
Art, what updates do you need on the Avennorian's?  I searched all over the site and see my original entry.  Is that what you need updated?  If so, how or what are you looking for?

Thanks

Capher.



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 August 2002, 16:01:00
Date fixing, 10000 to 5000 approx. and elaborate more details in all sections if possible (perhaps with parts of the World Builder concept, but don't make too much scientific work from it). E.g. Resources, general things about People, also propose a change of the Coat of Arms to something more simple (we never get that on one CoA *grin*), more detailed descriptions of the territory etc. Just to have more details on which we can base towns etc.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 15 August 2002, 01:05:00
Hey! Thuja, I,ll be rude too. >:

Are you an ..... or what? Are you blind when you read? You said you followed the thread, well, I don't think you had, because if you had, you wouldn't have said what you said.

SO I WILL REPEAT MYSELF A THIRD TIME FOR THOSE WHO BUMPS INTO CONVERSATIONS THAT THEY DID NOT FOLLOW (Not to mention that Artimidor said it too):

The CB is posted in the Maps and places in the Chrondra topic entirely, there is no program nor any software or any tables I roll on, it's semi-professional and everything I've wrote about the Avennorians of Manthria is pure imagination and logic, nothing was taken from anything except my imagination and the notes on the primitive Avennorians found in the "Races" on the SD site. Period!!!!


Now,

as for what you say Artimidor, yeah, it's a real big job, but we will only need to make the language tree of the avennorians and make a quick overview of their language without going into specific details as grammar and pronounciation. Only the tree so that we know where their language came from and how different it is from others who came from their father land long ago. But I'm pretty sure that only the backwater village and isolated towns still speak Avennorian, the rest would speak the language of the Santharian kingdom. Why? Because Avennoria is too small to retain it's own language and will be easily assimilated by another more dominant culture AND because they were invaded and conquered. So through centuries, the Avennorian merchants, rich and powerful began to speak the Erpheronian tongue (nobles were Erpheeronian so they already spoke that language) and when the Kingdom was made, one language became the language everyone used in Santharia and that's the one that is used today in Manthria.

Only small coastal villages and isolated inland villages still uses Avennorian language commonly, other than that, it's mostly a ceremonial language used in ceremony and religious rites.


Well, that's the overview I have of the MODERN Avennorains. It's logical and realistic, they are losing the war in keeping their language like any other conquered country in our world and will require either independance or a law that will make them highly resistant to the loss of their old language.

Well, that's what I think the language should be in the time santharia is now, dunno in the future though, it might completely disappear, only found in recordsm dunno, depends on what happens in the future.

that's all for now, asn for the language tree, it's pretty darn easy to do, takes only one hour to make, you just take the first nations and tell where each cultures came from linking them with lines and which one derived from which one and voilà! You've got yourself a language tree. :)  

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 8:09:02 am


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Dala Valannia on 15 August 2002, 01:24:00
Finally got around to reading this thread AND the Chondra one.....I don't agree with Feanor's CB or World Building format either, my reasons for rejection is basically too that such a format takes away the spontaneity, fun and 'soul' of a hands-on creation.

But I do think Feanor, reading through his replies, did try to make an effort to try and bring his points on the advantages of such a format across, only his tone was rather overbearing like when he told Viresse that he knew what's good for a fantasy world and what's not and more than a little condescending in the Chondra thread......*shakes head* Feanor, I have no doubt that you have a great deal of experience in world-building but in Santharia, you are still a relative novice so do please try to refrain from making 'sweeping' statements in the forum :  

Art and Capher considered Feanor's entries, discussed them reasonably, and thus giving him a fair chance before deciding his ideas won't work for Santharia. And I think this should be the way. Honesty and forthright opinions is of course a good thing when discussing a new concept but please remember that it's also easy to hurt someone else's feelings unawares and tactfulness can spare a lot of eventual unpleasantness. Tact from BOTH sides, alright? Tarquet, it's not really helpful when you tell someone to stuff it and go back to their own little world if they don't like it here :b   Blunt yes, but not condusive in the least :lol  

There is no good or stupid ideas, just a difference in how one perceives them.

Feanor, your format does save a lot of time and effort in the long run, but the same advantages becomes its failings. I think your entry is sufficiently good in some respects but lacks the human touch. Your format requirements to build a race/culture is too restrictive, rigid and mathematical imho. It's kinda hard for me to explain my own views on this, but look at it this way - a machine can produce a thousand chinese paper fans in a minute but compare those factory produced fans to one single fan, done by a craftsman in a year and there's bound to be a difference. Not to the eye perhaps, but in the way you feel when you hold the hand-made fan and see all the personal touches and details that the craftsman had put in and a machine can't.  

Edited by: Dala Valannia at: 8/14/02 9:06:43 am


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Dala Valannia on 15 August 2002, 03:32:00
Re-read your culture building list Feanor and I have to emphasize my original view that while it is detailed, it's also VERY lengthy....to a person who delights in minute details, I'm sure the format will suit him/her to a T but for the general masses, it is sometimes unnecessarily complicated. It's not boring precisely....but it is a little kinda control-freakish, if you don't mind me saying so :lol  It's good that a culture should be fleshed out as much as possible but you have to remember that you're creating a culture for others to read and hopefully enjoy and if you have pages and pages on how the race grows wheat or rice etc, you simply won't be able to substain the readers' interest. It'll be like reading a textbook on agriculture and not a stirring fantasy tale based on the created culture.  



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 15 August 2002, 09:53:00
Well, all my cultures that I've made with the CB are from two to ten pages long of hand written text, meaning like one to six pages of text in Word, so it's not very long, but very complete. If you want to know something about these guys, you got it there.

well, it's simply that I am tired of seeing things half done, I always make my things complete. Like some dum games like Wizards & Warriors on pc, or Airport Tycoon, are good example of unfinished products. I'm pretty tired of that and try to make everything that I do complete and not half way or three quarter way there. That's why I like the WB, once your through with it for a culture, it's complete, you don't need to come back later and find something's missing, maybe add new things but nothing is missing.

The only problem in making cultures it's the time in the world. A culture can last as long as a country exist or as short as a a centuries. So making cultures in a fictious world is very long since you must do each and every culture that existed since the first nation down to the last on the timeline. Using the CB cuts that time in half but increase difficulty for making them though, but in the end, it's very rewarding.

But since you are making more a book than a world, I don't mind randomly creating things here and there in the world as long as it respects the guidelines offered for something. I don't mind not using my culture builder either, I was just trying to show you something great a really excellent tool, but it seems you don't need it, so I'll put it back where it was and keep it for those who would like to build more a world than a book. :)

So I'll simply go back to Chrondra, forget about all that was written here and in the Chrondra topic and start to do things more or less randomly based on the description a primitive tribe that no longer exists because it's now the kingdom of Santharia not Avennoria. You really need to make modern versions of the cultures, no way the cultures are the same as they were back then. Think about it. :)

That's all, excuse me to have wasted your precious time, I'll simply go back to my chrondra and hope for the best.



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 15 August 2002, 15:34:00
Well, Dala, my tactics really work better in person with a baseball bat. :evil

And, Feanor, I really don't think you're in any position to be criticizing games that make millions of dollars. Seriously though, what the hello is that? Airport Tycoon not a complete product? It's just like all the other Tycoon games, but with a different thing to build! You expect them to have height, weight, age, nationality, and favorite breakfast food for all the little people? Maybe names? Or perhaps it should be more realistic, where all you do it choose A. B. or C. to boring questions in a board meeting about whether to put a Starbucks or a McDonalds in the open slot at the food court? Geez.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: .
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 15 August 2002, 22:51:00
Hey tarq, bugoff, don,t talk about things you don't know



Title: Re: .
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 16 August 2002, 01:40:00
Oh, I see, so now you're also a big producer of video games and can judge what is and is not complete? Yea, well, when you do something better, then I'll consider your opinion. Until then you're just the same as all the other critics who whine about this or that.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: Re: .
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 16 August 2002, 02:00:00
*shakes head* First to Tarq:     Please  try to be a bit more sensitive in certain situations - maybe there are other ways to express a certain point of view as well. You've also made Wren very angry lately, and I'm sure this isn't what we all want, right?

*shakes head* to Feanor as well. I think you take things against your person here, which is something maiking it pretty difficult as you don't see the arguments anymore people post here in order to tell you that it is more constructive to not follow the World Builder thingy just for the sake of following it. Taking things in a personal way results in completely unnecessary counter-attacks, of which we here at the Santharian Dream have been mostly spared in the last three years. If you call the current scheme "primitive" this doesn't sound very respectful and constructive, but as if you'd have to deal with such "crap" (this word probably is what the current creators hear when reading your posts), only because people don't like your super-mega-excellent scheme.

Anyway, I'd be careful to tell others that I've made the best of all RPG systems in the world and that I have found the absolute truth concerning culture design (even if I would be convinced of that myself). There     are rules here which have developed in the course of time, and there     are good reasons (no random ones) why they exist this way (though everything can be expanded of course, only at the appropriate time). So you should take into consideration that the concerns of more than a single person you can read here and at Gean's General Discussion thread are indeed justified.

The language tree is a good example, why the scheme won't work here. I've posted that, but you don't seem to listen. Do you know which language was spoken by the Avennorians or the Erpheronians, the Northern Sarvonian tribes? What languages they spoke in ancient times and which one today? Do you know what the Tharian tongue is in fact and from where it derives? Any idea what other humans speak on other continents? Is there a same root or not? Know why elves speak another language than the humans?  What is it that myth tells us concerning all these questions? As I've said: Answering these questions alone would keep you busy far too long so that I won't see a productive progress concerning the things we     really need. And as far as I see other comments hint in the same direction. Do you see them as well?


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 8/15/02 9:07:14 am


Title: Re: .
Post by: Viresse on 16 August 2002, 09:27:00
*looks around. Doesn't like where this thread is headed... whines in worry of upcoming events, but keeps mouth shut*


*pokey de Viresse* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Uh?
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 16 August 2002, 10:14:00
Well, I said primitive in the sense of cave man, not in the sense of "crap" Artimidor, because the tribal description are for the people that lived in Santharia hundreds if not thousands of years ago, sorry, I thought you understood what I meant.

Well, making a language tree isn't that complicated, like I said, you don't need to give all the reasons now, you only need to put names and lines that link each culture to its ancestor, it shouldn't take more than an hour to do. It's just to give an origin and to see how close languages are from one another. Like in modern Santharia, everyone would speak the same language today with traces of their old language of the past while just north of Santharia, another language would be used, much like Europe. Santharia being France and England north of Santharia, then the Scandinavians further north, etc. Just by making the language tree, you wil lbe able to know who can understand who, no way some complete stranger coming from the far north will know the language of a people down south, just look at the native americans, the Inuits we talked about earlier spoke a completely different language from the Aztecs and even some of the North American natives, but we all know that all the different languages of our native americans have probably the same roots. So by knowing how far from each other the cultures are, it will show us how hard it is for one culture to understand the other. And if you are writing a book and not creating a world, well, it would be even better if we make the language tree, it would look scientific and if left more or less simple will look as if some guy of the middle-ages would have made this, much like Tolkien did.



Title: Re: .
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 16 August 2002, 10:22:00
Okay, you asked for it.

Airport tycoon is like a screen saver, what you see on the screen isn't what happens in the game. So let's say you see a plane land on the screen, in the game there might have been four that landed and took off. The only use the graphical portion of the game has is that it allows you to build buildings. And Tarq, we all know what it is to be a teen, we have all been there, we think we know everything, but we don't.

Wizard & Warriors is a very incomplete game, several areas of the game have been "canceled" as well as having this selection problem. Selection problem is that when you want to pick up an item, you must find a certain point on the picture of the item, not a surface a dot, on the surface of the item to pick up and then try not to move the mouse to pick it up with a click. So imagine how frustrating it is to pick up a small coin or ring! almost impossible.

Another incomplete game, even though I hate to say it, is a game called Super Powers, the game is very incomplete, lacking many aspects having a truck load of bugs and can only be played for a year or two of game time before the game completely goes out of hand and absurd.

I could go on for a very long time, so you see, I do not say things without reasons like someone else here. They are not words thrown in the air.



Title: Re: .
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 16 August 2002, 15:38:00
Again: I'd like to see you do better. Until then your criticism are just like that of everyone else.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: Re: .
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 16 August 2002, 16:21:00
*stumbles over the thread again, sees worried that it goes more and more off-topic, wants to go but cannot do without a final comment*

Tarq, Feanor, I'd appreciate it if you both woulf stop barking at each other and instead shut up! If you've nothing constructive to add to the topic say nothing at all.

That would ensure that both of you at least look smart!
"It is easier to keep your mouth shut and pretend to be clever than to open your mouth and prove the world the opposite." (Quote from someone I right now don't remember but something you both should seriously consider)

Sorry if you take this statement a bit harsh but that is exactly my current impression about both of you.


I'd say get back to topic and that is mainly about that culture builder and the Avennorians. That is something mainly Capher and Feanoir have to deal with but Feanor as you might recognize from others people I'd suggest to think more open-minded in using it. It is still my opinion that this tool is at least interesting and when you want to use it, none will search your HD so... ;)  I just see it like Art that many of these details you seem to need for it are far from important for Santharia right now so either ignore them or fill them with some assumptions.
Other than that I can only suggest to not take anything said too personally, it only expresses the worries about peoples who care about this world, nothing more but also nothing less.



So I'd like to see the next post in this thread to be better constructive or knightly Koldar will go and get some hell of a big barbarian greatsword and will start to get ...
annoyed.. ;)



Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: .
Post by: Dala Valannia on 16 August 2002, 20:09:00
*Dala pats Viresse's hand comfortingly and tells her 'there there, don't worry, it's just male hormones I'm sure'*

Feanor, it's obvious you take a lot of pride in your CB format so understandably, you might feel that our recent comments is unjustly harsh. You say it's fine that Santharia needn't use your format but then you give long explanations and rebuttals and end with apologizing for 'wasting our precious time' when no-one accused you of doing so......I'm sorry but I can't help but feel you're taking this very personally indeed like Art mentioned. You shouldn't. We're not saying your format or language tree is bad or useless, they are very good and detailed in their own ways, only that they're merely not suitable for Santharia.

Tarq......three words.....just walk away!! C'mon, I'm sure you're man enough to do it. Okay, I know Feanor got your heckles up (with good reason at times) but you got in more than your fair share of punches since then so trust me, you're not gonna be labelled a wimp if you just.walk.away.now.

Okay, I know Art and Koldar already basically told you guys to shut up and pipe down (and so did I, only more nicely :b , in an earlier post) but I'm adding this because I don't want Feanor to feel that we're being unfairly critical to his ideas and nor do I want Tarq to feel that all of Santharia is against him. No-one is taking sides here, we're impartially pointing out that BOTH of you two are acting like a pair of immature blockheads!




Edited by: Dala Valannia at: 8/16/02 3:12:16 am


Title: reply
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 16 August 2002, 21:29:00
I had problems posting but now it's okay, I think I wrote something the ez-boards thought of beint an html code or something

Koldar, as usual, you are right. Anyways, I don't want to know what that big conan sword is doing, beside, you're too high level for me and I'm no warrior, I'm just a baron... although, if you are a Santharian knight, I could order you around. :lol  ;)

Here is what I thought for the language tree

Is Dala Valannia Goddess of wisdom and justice in Santharia? Because if she ain't, she should. She speaks wisely and just. :)

Seriously, Dala sounds nice for a goddess' name, no? :D  Dala, goddess of wisdom and Justice. hehehe

Well, I cannot help you with the language tree because I have no idea where the language come from, but what I can do, is give you the language tree of the Avennorians.

Language tree (without the lines lol):

Fatherland --- Colonial Avennorians -- Pre-Chosen war Avennorians -- Renaissance -- Northern Avennorian
                                                                                                                            -- Southern avennorian

-- Northern avennorian -- Manthric
-- Southern Avennorian -- Brandolanic

See, no big deal, took me two minutes to make the language tree! Plus an additional ten minutes to explain and voilà! I don't see what all the fuss is about, how can you built cultures without knowing what their language went through?

Here is the explanation of the origins of the different dialects:

Fatherland is the initial language of the first waves of colonists that went to the land now know as the province of Manthria in Santharia.

Colonial Avennorian is the language of the settled colonist three or four generations after their arrival in this new land. New fruits, vegetables, animals, events required new expressions and names and with the local population's influence later on made the Father Land's language to be altered much like the american colonies of all four countries in our own world in the Americas(England, France, Spain and Portugal).

Pre-Chosen war Avennorian was the equivalent of english after the independance of the Unite states, much has changed and since their lands have expanded southward, new things, people and even creatures were encountered altering even further the language.

The renaissance dialect appeared after the rebirth of the kingdom of Avennoria when Marcogg was rebuilt. By that time the old father land dialect has completely disappeared and the colonial avennorian dialect might only be found in the oldest and secluded parts of Avennoria.Pre chosen war dialect is still used among the commoner after the new dialect was born but gradually disappeared.

The Northern and Southern dialect appeared after the erpheronian invasion. since the Avennorians were no longer in power, and with the Erpheronian influence, their own language began to fade away to be replaced by the erpheronian language among the nobles, rich and powerful of the province. Soon, very few still spoke the renaissance dialect and no other dialect survived the invasion except this one.

The Manthric dialect is the moden day language of the Avennoirans in Manthria. It's a mix of erpheronian tribal language and the Avennorian renaissance dialect. Renaissance dialect is only used as a ritualistic and traditional language in temples and academical establishments much like latin in our own world.

Brandolanic is a degenerated version of the erpheronian language mixed with both the renaissance dialect of the Avennorians and the local clans and tribes that lived souther that the Avennorians. The Brandolanic dialect is different from the Manthric dialect, but if no one used their slang version of their language and spoke properly and correctly their language both could understand well each other. Much like the English and americans, Quebecers and French, spaniards and Mexicans, etc, in our own world.


See, took me ten minutes to create this and write it, no big deal or fuss. :)

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/16/02 7:41:59 am


Title: Re: .
Post by: Lancelot2001ca on 16 August 2002, 21:34:00
HTML Comments are not allowed



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 19 August 2002, 17:55:00
So what do you think?

I have maybe a couple more of ideas but I'll wait until you tell me what you think.

As for taking this personal, well, try to keep your cool down when people barge into your conversation, and begins to talk about something that has already been resloved as well as having people wasting forum space with  unhelpful approvals and nno new ideas or comments and they blame you for this and that. So, do you think I have reasons to be upset? I think some people should roll their tongue ten times in their mouths before postiing, or at the very least, not posting things that have already been said and dealt with. From now on, I will ignore any unhelpful posts and posts that talks about things that have already been solved.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/19/02 12:56:53 am


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Thuja on 20 August 2002, 02:25:00
Language Tree?  I thought Artimidor wanted us to concentrate on elaborating other more and needed areas?  Guess I misread this several times.  Since it is here anyway the biggest question I have, when is the "renaissance" period of Santharia/Sorren?  I am not familiar with this as a part of this world's culture.  As a matter of fact, renaissance is a time period for our world and I don't think we should bring it into this world.  


"In a place like this, the magic is all around you, the trick is to see it."



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 20 August 2002, 03:55:00
Renaissance can be also used as general term meaning "rebirth", here the language used after the rebirth of the kingdom. Other than that it is a good thumb rule to imagine that the Santharian culture equals early Renaissance in many aspects (from technological or social viewpoint).

If you can now proceed with it, Feanor it is fine I guess, at least it looks reasoned to me though I might question your last question: What have you won with the language tree? You describe pretty obvious developments here so I'd see no need to point it out till very late in tribe development.

BTW: Have you ICQ? As I don't want to clutter this thread any more it would be easier to get in contact via AIM, ICQ or IRC, the later also available through webinterface...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Capher on 20 August 2002, 06:48:00
Hmmm... ok, I see the language tree, but as Koldar stated, what is the purpose of it in the overall scheme of what Art and the others wanted?

Well lets move on shall we?  What is next?

Capher.



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Wren on 20 August 2002, 09:23:00
I hate long posts, cos I don't think anyone ever reads them carefully and thinks about them but I'll post it anyway in the vain hope.

On the subject of language (not that I want to drag it out, because I don't feel it to be overly important at this juncture)

Language is Vital to the Dream. Tolkien made his world for the languages to exist in.

However, fantasy worlds are not real worlds. While much of what we learn in RL applies, much does not.

In Tolkien's World Quenya, the language of the elves is given, and all other elven languages evolve from this. Tolkien never entered into vast discusscusion about how the languages of men came to be or where they came from.

OK........So Santharia. First remember the Avenorrians are an ancient tribe. Santharia itself is now rather Like the UK. To be Avennorian in the modern Santharian World is rather like being Scottish or Welsh. You have a cultural identity as an Avennorian, but only a few of these people maintain their own language (the exception to this is the far south, But that's for another discussion).

If you look at languages like Welsh, Gealic, ect, where cultural identity has been maintained for several thousand years, no clear language trees can be drawn. One can say they are Indo-European in origin. One can even analyse them and say that Welsh is probably closer to Breton than Gealic is; but there are NO certainies, No Right answers.

You may if you wish, do as Talia did, create a linguistics journal, where you may write theorys, articals ect.

Where Language trees are useful are in later languages - Tharian the common tounge of Santharia (English basically), where tounges have been combined recently enough for their evolutionary roots to be clear.

I would suggest any language in use earlier than 300 b.S is really traceable, and thus must be treated like a Celtic language. Tharian, however, will be identifiably the language of the Epheronians (if you treat this like Old English) and then start saying that the celtic elements of Tharian are from other languages absorbed as King Thar expanded his empire further south. But that is another discussion and I would be happy to take it further elsewhere

Language and Historical detail are interwiened indelibly. A human with a knowledge of Linguistics and a detailed understanding of events in the language area will be infinetly more accurate and logical in creation of such trees. Besides that is what this is 'A World In Creation'. We do not use computer programs because ultimatly it is imagination that drives this project. Science and Logic have their place, but they are no match, in this world anyway, for magic, literary talent and imagination.

Anyway that's my two pennies worth.

Summary for thos Lazy tykes - I personally feel language trees are only applicable to Tharian onwards. I therefore feel this debate to be out of place and suggest language debate on aforementioned Tharain tree to be taken to language forum and would prefer it take up no more space here.

*Has a hideous feeling that her (rather good IMHO) will siomply bounce off!*


Contact The Elfy Secretary and Santharia's People Person
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 20 August 2002, 12:39:00
Yup, I guess what Wren tries to say is, and what I also tried to emphasize from the beginning: Language (and other things you have in your concept) are of importance. Tolkien has based his whole world concept on language, and language sure is an important part of a culture. And this is why it needs much more thought. Building a language tree is not the real problem. The real problem is the general concept, which has to precede later developments of the language, and this general concept has to start with Tharian etc. Language is too important and also too complicated to start it at the end, at the result it produces. But a complete concept requires more attention, that's why I said it's not relevant at the moment, just throwing it out here, if we can't do it completely and thoroughly first.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Wren on 20 August 2002, 14:02:00
*looks at her summary*

er...... I think I said it pretty clearly all by myself!


Contact The Elfy Secretary and Santharia's People Person
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Viresse on 20 August 2002, 20:53:00
you hit the nail on the head Wren. I don't think I could have said it any better myself.


*pokey de Viresse* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 20 August 2002, 21:17:00
Koldar, ask artimidor about my icq and mail he has it. :)  


Please Wren, don't talk about htings you aren't sure about like the supposedly program and about Real Life. We already talked about that and I told what I think in bold. :)

BTW, just to tell you that I already said that the modern language of Manthria is the Santharian language in the description of the language tree I think and before that too. no matter. I said that the last Avennorian tongue was used only as a traditional language and religious, much like latin in the medieval period. But most people speaks Santharian, well, almost everyone. :)

You confuse Real life and Realism my dear, they are completely different things. Real life, well, means real life, what happens in real life. While realism mean common sense, logic, etc. If you don't apply realism in your world, it will lack common sense, every action has a reaction, every action has an origin and reason to be, every item has its story and reason to still exist, etc. If you don't apply realism in your world, well, you can say goodbye to it, no one will play in that.

Language tree here was to help understand and help create the Manthric Avennorians.  Now that it's done, I can go further into the CB and make the Modern Avennorians more detailed and real to our eyes and imagination. :)

Thanks for all your HELPFUL comments, although some were just repeating what the other said and some others just repeated things that have been solved a week ago. :(

I'll post something soon thi beginning of the week. :)

Take care all.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/20/02 4:32:49 am


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Viresse on 20 August 2002, 22:00:00
*blinks... frowns slightly*


*pokey de Viresse* - character descriptions moderator
The Santharian Dream - Home sweet Home...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Thuja on 21 August 2002, 03:17:00
Thuja opens mouth then promptly shuts it biting tongue.  Shakes head and starts shoving a few things in a traveling pack.  Believes it is time to move on having been to long in one area.  Needs fresh air and open spaces.  Western Sarvonia looks inviting or maybe north to home.

"In a place like this, the magic is all around you, the trick is to see it."



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 August 2002, 14:18:00
Well, what more can I say except: This is not what I want to see to happen with long-time members - that they have to settle elsewehere in Santharia, because you still don't seem to listen to others concerns and also haven't found the politest way to express it, Feanor.

Ok, this is a first warning, Feanor! Try to listen more and respect the work of others. We might get in trouble if things repeat here.

To Thuja: Wren just told me you're welcomed in Sanguia, (in fact she's jumping up and down in excitement;) .


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 21 August 2002, 14:49:00
Huh? What did I say???

I didn't f... anyone, I didn't say anyone to go to hell or anything, I was polite, wasn't mean, anything.

And if you are mentioning the thing about the world being realistic, well, just look at Tolkien's work, there is nothing more realistic than his work.

Other than that, I don't see what all this fuss is about.

Didn't I listen to them? Answering all of them doesn't prove I read and understood what they said? I read all of what wren said, and only found out that half her post were things that we already solved in previous post. Like I said before,

I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE BARGIN INTO CONVERSATIONS AND HAVEN'T A CLUE OF WHAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED AND WHERE THE CONVERSATION IS AT!

These caps weren't angry caps, just a scream and caps so people can read them before posting things that have already been solved one week or more ago. Please don't do that, you are really NOT motivating me to listen and understand as well as putting me on your side when you do that. You're doing the opposite.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/20/02 9:56:21 pm


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Wren on 21 August 2002, 15:14:00
To say I feel patronised by the words:

'You confuse Real life and Realism my dear, they are completely different things.'

Is the understatement of the Millenia, and we've only just started it!

All my entries (if you have actually read any) are all grounded in weeks of research of real situation, and my own (fairly good grounding) of Biogeography and Climatic change. Admitedly my first entries are very shakey but the Theahevil River is the end product of months of hard work. How you have the nerve to accuse me of not understanding the place of realism in a fantasy world is beyond me!

In fact, reading your post it is clear that you don't understand what my post is getting at!

I am simply saying that all discussion of human language MUST begin at Tharian and work from there. It cannot work well any other way!

I consider this the end of Language discussion. As Capher said what's next?

P.S Thuja mate, you have a Free riegn - there's Santhala, Vezash - all sorts of stuff!  


Contact The Elfy Secretary and Santharia's People Person
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true

Edited by: Wren at: 8/21/02 4:38:38 pm


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Capher on 21 August 2002, 15:23:00
Okay, I am not a happy camper right now.  I was willing to go along with this experiment Feanor, but when you start patronizing Wren and the other Santharian developers you have crossed the line.  

Just try and do your Chrondra entry with the information you have and what has already been written on the site.  If you need some info about how I, the author of the Avennorian's, would think the city would look like I would be more than willing to help.

But no more, and I repeat no more WB.  Leave it for someother site or your own worlds it just does not work here. If you cannot or are unwilling to do so then....  Well we here at Santharia are always willing to allow people to share their talents, but we also ask for respect from those newbies.  

All we ask is that you follow our guide lines.  It seems to have worked so far.  So why fix something if it is not broke.  That is what my dad always used to tell me.

Thanks

Capher.



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Wren on 21 August 2002, 15:29:00
Well to be fair I don't suppose he realised how badly that actually comes across......But still, What he also doesn't realise is I'm easy to rattle. Arti and Thuja rarely ever loose their cool! So if their cross, I think he needs to examine his approach. There is not always one way to skin a cat!


Contact The Elfy Secretary and Santharia's People Person
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true



Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 21 August 2002, 17:55:00
*raises eyebrow, looks worried left and right*

I'm usually not see neccisities for any hard mod intervention but, Art, I'd suggest to close this thread. It has gone terribly off-topic and heated up and leads us nowhere.
I don't see that anything said here can be easily resolved within this thread, worse it only gets twisted and misinterpreted. I would suggest to everyone to take a deep breathe and stand back.
Everything that can be said, was said and wether this was anyhow good or bad there's IMO nothing to add.



Feanor, you might have recognized that the tone in your postings is not taken very positive so I suggest to think about the reason why. I already told you on the rpg-forum more as a joke than in seriousness that you should put away your "too cleverness" and your "sharpened pen". I now say in all seriousness: Put it away, it leads you nowhere and is nothing constructive when used in a heated up discussion!
I suggest that when you feel outnumbered, mobbed, misunderstood or anything else to talk it out with Artimidor, Capher or me via IRQ or AIM.
I can assure you that at least the first two always have an open ear for anyone's concerns! ;)


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!



Title: Take 2 for wren. lol
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 21 August 2002, 22:44:00
I'll answer then in your own post. removed first lline 'cause it's a personal thing and has nothing to do with the subject though. :)

(I do not know how to put things in bold in a forum, so I put the things I say in () after each of your paragraphs.)


"On the subject of language (not that I want to drag it out, because I don't feel it to be overly important at this juncture)

Language is Vital to the Dream. Tolkien made his world for the languages to exist in.  (ya, I hear you, you're right here)

However, fantasy worlds are not real worlds. While much of what we learn in RL applies, much does not. (That's where the thing I said about real life and Realism applied, sorry for the confusion, it had nothing to do with the language further down your post. :)   )

In Tolkien's World Quenya, the language of the elves is given, and all other elven languages evolve from this. Tolkien never entered into vast discusscusion about how the languages of men came to be or where they came from.     (elves had more than one language in tolkien, although Quenya was more frequently used I think, I should check my Middle books for that. :)  )

OK........So Santharia. First remember the Avenorrians are an ancient tribe. Santharia itself is now rather Like the UK. To be Avennorian in the modern Santharian World is rather like being Scottish or Welsh. You have a cultural identity as an Avennorian, but only a few of these people maintain their own language (the exception to this is the far south, But that's for another discussion).         (I already said that Manthria was no longer Avennoria and was pretty much like every other provinces in Santharia minus some exceptions due to the original Avennorian people there, in a previous post early in this topic.)

If you look at languages like Welsh, Gealic, ect, where cultural identity has been maintained for several thousand years, no clear language trees can be drawn. One can say they are Indo-European in origin. One can even analyse them and say that Welsh is probably closer to Breton than Gealic is; but there are NO certainies, No Right answers.         (Yes, but in the case of the Avennorians, they have a distinct history, maybe dark and mysterious to the common folk in the modern day due to the Erpheronian invasion, but some scholars, sage and temples might still have records of the past that were hidden from the Erpheronians. They are not just little scots or welch, they are much like the vikings at a smaller scale, they were great at one time, but are no one now except people part of a bigger country.)

You may if you wish, do as Talia did, create a linguistics journal, where you may write theorys, articals ect.      (I think that's what I'll do when I'm at that level of detail . :)  )

Where Language trees are useful are in later languages - Tharian the common tounge of Santharia (English basically), where tounges have been combined recently enough for their evolutionary roots to be clear.      (Language trees are necessary for every cultures, from the first people who invented language to the end of time. So you can know if someone from a certain place can understand someone else from another place, and the difficulty of understanding each other. Each step a language takes apart from a sister language makes it even more distant to it. etc.)

I would suggest any language in use earlier than 300 b.S is really traceable, and thus must be treated like a Celtic language. Tharian, however, will be identifiably the language of the Epheronians (if you treat this like Old English) and then start saying that the celtic elements of Tharian are from other languages absorbed as King Thar expanded his empire further south. But that is another discussion and I would be happy to take it further elsewhere          (If everyone in Santharia came from the same place, they must have different dialects and their language must be different a lot, especially before Erpheronian invasions. While today, most people would speak Santharian. I say Santharian because it's the kingdom btw.)

Language and Historical detail are interwiened indelibly. A human with a knowledge of Linguistics and a detailed understanding of events in the language area will be infinetly more accurate and logical in creation of such trees. Besides that is what this is 'A World In Creation'. We do not use computer programs because ultimatly it is imagination that drives this project. Science and Logic have their place, but they are no match, in this world anyway, for magic, literary talent and imagination.           (That's the part where you should have skiimmed through previous post so you wouldn't make me upset by repeating things that have already been solved. That is why I said and think that you didn't read the previous posts, you just give the proof here. No hard feelings though, just don't do it again please, I'm getting tired of this. :)   I never said I used a program, read the topic in full, at least my replies.)

Anyway that's my two pennies worth.

Summary for thos Lazy tykes - I personally feel language trees are only applicable to Tharian onwards. I therefore feel this debate to be out of place and suggest language debate on aforementioned Tharain tree to be taken to language forum and would prefer it take up no more space here.        (Ok, but we're not doing any large scale things here, we're just doing Avennorians, not the language tree of the world. We only need to know how well they communicate with other people, that's the use of a language tree in the first place.)


That's all, I don,t question your integrity or your capabilities wren, but by doing just as I did, will help you understand my post earlier, sorry if it upseted you. :)



Title: Reply to Koldar
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 21 August 2002, 23:04:00
Oh, ok, no prob

But I'm truly only pissed at people talking about things that have been solved a week ago, nothing else. Really!

Just put yourself in my shoes and try to keep your cool when people barge in your nice debate and begins to talk about things that have already been taking care of, I don,t think you can do it for long. That's what pissed me off, nothing else.

If that wouldn't have happened, I wouldn't be upset and pissed at all now.

We can continue to workd on the Avennorian with my CB only if people STOP barging in in the topic with things that have been solved over a week ago, if you guys can do that, I will keep my cool.

Like I said in another topic, I LIKE a good debate, but not when people are barging in like I explained so many times. I repeat over and over so the ones who didn't barge in the topic yet don't start over this s..t again.

I'm pretty tired of this too, so can we go back to work now and ask people NOT to barge in without the full knowledge of our topic and things that are discussed in it please, I'm not asking for the moon here.

Sorry, Wren if I was a bit harsh and cold, but understand and try to put yourself in my shoes, would you like people doing that in your own topics? Not saying that you did it seriously, it was just something you mentioned lightly here in a post. Like i go into one of your topics in a whatsoever thread, and start saying nonono, it can't be, you go it all wrong, this can't be, and one week before, all agreed in your topic that this would be worth a try or would work or whatever by everyone else but me. It has nothing to do with your post truly, only the drop of water that spilled the vase actually.

I don't ask for excuses, only that anyone that wants to say something follow the entire conversation or AT THE VERY LEAST, ask others about what you want to say if it was said before or was dealt before, first to save forum space, second, not to start bad arguments, and third, to waste everyone's time and energy. And for me, fourth, to piss me off. lol

so I am not angry about what you guys say about the language and all, it's  about people barging in conversation with no or very little knowledge about what has been said.

For example, all, or almost all, people who have posted since my topic on Chrondra all knows that I'm not using a software or anything  when we talk about a Culture Builder. And at the beginning of this topic, I explained to Viresse that the Culture Builder is not a software. So stop bugging me with that please. Pretty please... :lol  

That's all that I have to say, and if the barging continues like that, I'll simply work with Artimidor, Koldar and maybe Uragel, since I have their icq. Not to mention Capher since he's the master of the Avennorians. And stop posting in the forums since some people are doing thindgs like that. God, is that too much to ask? Have I barged in a conversation without knowing the entire tipic first? no, I don't think so. So why people are doing this to me? dunno why, must be a past bad deed I did when i was younger. lol

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/21/02 6:10:30 am


Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Feanor the Grey on 21 August 2002, 23:13:00
Not fixed Capher, improve.

Beside, your description of the Avennorians are for the primitive Avennorians, not their modern descendants, you need cultures for the modern day, not cultures that died off or are in the process of dying off.

Just need to make a modern day Avennorian, what he looks likes, what are his beliefs, what is his daily life, etc. Nothing more or less. :D  

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Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Wren on 22 August 2002, 10:23:00
Oh pants.

Well apology accepted. I don't wish to drag this out longer. But you are still unwilling to accept that I have any kind of point worth making and I think that I have some vaild arguments which you have not touched on. And to be honest I still feel rather talked down to!

*leaves thread or this is just gonna drag on*


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Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Viresse on 22 August 2002, 11:27:00
*knew that this was going to be like this, from her first post, has thusly said little*

well, Feanor... The reason this is a message board is to post our opinions. True, some don't read the entire thread, as some believe it to be a 'continuing conversation' instead of a mass of information laid out chronologically. I read threads as a conversation. I don't know if anyone else does. New people come into the conversation, and give their opinion. Some may not have read, and then you can point them to Exactly what it is you're talking about, instead of yelling in frustration.

The first half of this Conversation is in the Chondra thread, that makes things even more confusing. I'd hope you can give some slack. The only way we know where the first half is is Only becuase you're shouting at everyone.
Also, the fact that a single entry is over four pages is a bit intimidating, people don't have the time to read four pages.

Yes, this would be the part where you say " Well, if they don't have the Time, they shouldn't comment." And then I say " Well, that's not what this is about. It's about creating an entry that all of us can enjoy without fear of retaliation for expressing our opinions."

Usually with new info, we post it onto the First thread, so people don't have to scroll all over the thread to get info. If you could do that, I'd be happy, others would be happy becuase all the source info would be in ONE place.

I'm really trying hard not to be mean or cruel or brash or anything. That's not the kind of person I am. I've done myself a favor and kept myself quiet throughout this thread, which means I still have a cool head, and am able to comment without emotion cluttering my words.

Although I do have to say that I dislike you, as anything you post either insults a longtime member and elevates yourself to a "Holier than Thou" status, or another entry for the Avenorrians when people haven't resolved the issure before it. It's very frustrating to see you anger others with your shouting and irritability, and then Others anger you for some reason I am unclear with.

Perhaps you should not have been so ambitious with this entry. Tribes are hard. The fact you are inexperienced with Santharia will make it harder. And the introduction of the seemingly information-laden Culture Builder pits you against those that have created cultures with only templates and our imaginations.

Or maybe it's us. Maybe we're too fantasy-laden, and so full of ourselves. We're way too pompous and arrogant to want to deal with your work, and we are luddites who hate any form of change.

Either way, something needs to change. I'm sure you agree. But as you are here in Our world, dealing with Many of Us, who have never had problems like this before, I don't know if it's going to be us that will change, Feanor...

*sighs. Fears this will do little, and eagerly wishes to close the thread...*


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Title: Re: Avennorians (Here Capher)
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 22 August 2002, 15:16:00
Yup, thread now closed. At new threads only polite people may enter - please get your politeness tickets at the Forum entrance! :D  


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