Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => Races, Tribes and Clans => Topic started by: Erian Melor on 13 September 2005, 19:09:00



Title: Trolls: Brainstorming
Post by: Erian Melor on 13 September 2005, 19:09:00
Post any ideas/objections about Trolls here. I am currently developing them, so if you have any concerns: either post them or forever hold your peace. This is what Judith posted in the general Santharian discussion forum, enjoy:

Official Notification: Erian is approved to work on the Trolls.

Now, bearing in mind that this is only MY opinion, and everyone else will probably want a kick at this cat... (oops, sorry, bad ex-pression!)... everyone will want to spit in this soup pot... (ok, so that's not much better...) here goes with some answers.

1. How sentient are they?

I guess what you are really asking is 'how intelligent' are trolls? Going by looks and behavior, they are more than animals but less than humans. Some humans, anyhow... It would be nice to have something 'less sentient' than orcs but 'more sentient' than mermaids, and it looks like trolls are it.

As sentience can be defined by culture, you'd have to look at what aspects of their culture there are and how they are expressed. From what's on the site, it's very limited! For example, they rarely wear 'more than a simple loincloth' - and that won't be cloth because they absolutely will not have a herding / shearing / spinning / weaving level culture. If they can skin an animal - and crudely tan the result - that would probably be considered sophisticated in the troll community! It's hard to tell from the pictures, as they are mostly covered with their own hair...

2. Would they have an organized religion?

Organized? Heavens, no! Oh, sorry, forgive the pun there... Well, it's possible that they would have some crude conception of crime and punishment. But without a concept of 'good' behavior, can you really have an idea of 'bad'? Oooooh, there's an idea for our philosophers to jump on and start fighting over! And Talia may say this isn't her area of interest, but if you wave THAT question in front of her nose she just might surprise you... (evil grin)

3. Am I allowed to create trollish deities?

Like Ghnom and the rest, from David Edding's "The Elenium"?  Personally, I think he was showing off because he had to come up with some sort of power for Bhelliom ('the Sapphire Rose' itself)...

Again, that would have to wait on the answer to number two. They might 'believe', in a very primitive fashion, in a powerful, vengeful spirit or three which resides in the sun or the ice. It needn't even be a deity which rewards its followers, save by the absence of 'pain'/'discomfort'/bad weather/bad hunting, etc...

4. How many trolls are there in Caelereth, and how many of each species?

The site says, as I hope you already know: "Trolls can be found in a variety of environments, ranging from swamps and forests to mountains and frozen tundra. There exist several different species of trolls, the most common among them is the Cave Troll, followed by the Forest Troll, the Mountain Troll, the War Troll, the Stone Troll and finally the Snow Troll living mainly in the vast and fierce icelands of Cyhalloi....Trolls live in small nomadic communities (up to 30 members), depending on their species either in caves, in dark forests or in recedes at the eternal ice. Trolls will live an average of 250 to 300 years, but only very seldom give birth to more than three children in their long lifespan...."

Since they are such vicious things, you'd be best off to make them sparse and isolated, as the information already seems to suggest. I'd take a map of the continent and put small red circles in areas where there might be a 'TRUL-UT' - a troll community or clan of fifteen to thirty trolls. Obviously there won't be any in heavily populous or civilized areas. And there shouldn't be more than three or four circles of each type, either, methinks. You do the math - it's not my forte - just make sure they won't out-hunt the area you place them in!

5. Am I allowed to tweak their magical abilities?... I don't like that trollish shamans can raise the dead.

Me neither! I know there was a huge ruckus on the RPG board a while ago about resurrection. In my opinion those lines from the current entry should be completely deleted - it's an older entry and we have since come to more sophisticated conclusions about magic, balance of power, etc. etc. I would give a firm "NO!" to raising the dead.

In fact - and here's a nasty one for you - trolls shouldn't even HAVE magic, magic-users, or shamans (unlike goblins and orcs)! That would very clearly define their sentience level, wouldn't you say? But I'm open to argument if anyone has some good reasons FOR their ability to manipulate ouns....


Ok, that's plenty to start with. If I were you, I'd copy all of this and paste it into a new thread in the Races Forum, as you have been officially approved to go ahead with the Trolls. That gives you somewhere to begin your brainstorming. I'd also copy what exists about the Trolls and start making additions and changes, even in point form. Of course, keep your own copy in Word on your own computer (none of us trust EZboard after that last crash), but if you keep it posted to the Races Forum, we can work together as usual. Right, let's go!


I agree with Judith about the answer to number one, but what would the loincloth be made out of if not cloth? I don't exactly like the idea of naked Trolls roaming Caelereth. The entry also states that their culture varies depending upon the community. Since a community is up to thirty Trolls, I would like to change it so that their culture varies depending upon their clan.

As far as religion and deities are concerned, I was thinking that they would have a belief in one god. Sorta the whole Mother Earth idea, except they would have their own name for him/her. The religion would not be organized and would be more primal than anything else. There would be no other deities, as they place their faith solely in the earth.

I agree that Trolls should be sparse and isolated. I was thinking that there would be a clan for each species, and I would remove the word "species" from the Troll entry as I feel that this is a modern word. Each clan would have various communties spread through a certain territory. As far as territory is concerned: which mountains, swamps, forests, etc... could I use without stepping on anyone's toes? Most of the forests seem to be inhabited by elves, and they would not tolerate Trolls. The mountains would probably not be a problem, since dwarves would be living within the mountains and not on the slopes or in the caves. The only swamp I know of in Southern Sarvonia is the Silvermarshes. Would it harm the human, hobbit, and mullog populations to place Trolls there? Basically, I need an area of wilderness for each community, though it could be near a town. The facts that Trolls only have about three children in their lifespan and that they constantly fight leads me to believe that there are not many Trolls in Caelereth, perhaps even less Trolls exist than elves.

I actually agree that they should not have magic, as magic users tend to be more intelligent. I was thinking that instead of shamans, they could have elders (maybe a group of elders per community?) that would be respected for their age but lack magical abilities. Trolls are strong enough as it is with their healing abilities and natural armor. I see no reason to give them magic as well.

So, lets brainstorm! By the way, I would greatly appreciate help with a trollish language. It would not be as sophisticated as any of the other languages, but I need to name the clans and deity using their own language.


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

Edited by: Erian Melor at: 9/13/05 16:49


Title: Re: Trolls: Brainstorming
Post by: Bard Judith on 13 September 2005, 22:42:00
Oh goody, this is fun already!

DIALOG:

Point number one: NO naked trolls.  The mind boggles!

Fur, dear.  Deer hides, bear skins, the outsides of those little crunchy rodents that trolls like to snack on... it blends in with their hairy bodies and provides decent camouflage - insofar as you CAN be camouflaged when you are twice the size of a human...

----------------------------------------------------

Two:   Belief in a single Earth Spirit (probably male) sounds like a realistic idea.  I'd still consider making it an erratic, capricious deity whose acts seem as random as the weather (gee, you think?) so that their main focus in 'worship' would be to avert disasters and to propitiate this chaotic spirit.

----------------------------------------------------

Three: By 'clan for each species' you mean that there are only - what is it, five? - five clans?  A Mountain Clan, a Swamp Clan, etc.?    That would work - I prefer that nomenclature to 'species', certainly.  Although 'tribe' would also work and sound more primitive.   (I may be a bit prejudiced here as my Thergerim come in 'clans', so I'd rather you chose a unique grouping word for the Troll race....)

Don't forget that you can place trolls in other continents - they are obviously (see Isilhir's picture of them fighting Ulvur) on Cyhalloi, for example.  You don't need to crowd them all into Sarvonia.   And no, the Silvermarshes won't fit a troll clan.  The place just isn't big enough and it's too populated (the Mullogs and Caimans have the centre 'desolate' part to themselves, of course)    There are other marshes/swamps/wetlands even if they don't have entries yet!

------------------------------------------------

Four:  Thumbs-down on magic?  Sure, I'm with you on that.... but the old "Xanthian Rule" might well be applied here. (Sorry, Alysse, I'm talking about Piers Anthony's fantasy series, not your daughter!)  It runs something like this: "A creature can either DO magic or BE magic...."   Yeah, I know this isn't a Santharian Dream rule, but it does suggest an interesting concept for the race.   Perhaps trolls should BE magic - in the sense that they have almost 'super-human' healing abilities, for one.  Perhaps they also seem to be able to 'sense' their prey at a distance.  Just some ideas I'll throw out for comment!

Elders:  Don't know if trolls would respect age as much as they would strength.  The latter usually tends to dwindle with the former.  I suspect, like many animals, the strongest troll in the community rules by force of will/force of arm, and makes whatever decisions are to be made.  Hey, even horses and wolves work on this level, and I see trolls very much as 'pack'-centred in the same way.

--------------------------------------------

Five:  I meant to tell you I'll gladly provide a 'Troll-tongue' if you like - I had some concepts for "Trullish" already!   It doesn't need to have its own glossary in the Languages Editor as it won't be complex enough.  Rather,  it should be modeled after Mermish and Orcen, in that we simply give a short list of words and their Tharian equivalent.  Remember, as researchers we only have a limited way to acquire some of this information!  

You have two words of it already BTW :p

TRUL - Troll (the Tharian word was taken from the trolls' own name for themselves, which humans heard repeatedly on the first encounter.  The first encounter which any humans survived, that is....)

UT - Clan, Tribe, Group (whatever word you choose here, meaning the type of troll such as Mountain / Swamp / etc.)

Oh, and there are Compendium 'conventions' for writing and transcribing various languages into Tharian.  When writing Mermish, for example, scribes put a little 'wave-marking' between each word to signify that it IS Mermish:  "Alassi~hu~eeenwi!"

Styrash is full of special accent marks to show pronunciation, while ThergerimTaal has capitalization within words to mark phonemes (units of meaning).  I propose, since Trullish is a loud, grunted, coarse language, to capitalize every bloomin' word!   :evil

(giggles)  So?  Whaddaya think? :fish    or :loveeyes  ?



Title: Re: Trolls: Brainstorming
Post by: ishmaelion on 14 September 2005, 01:14:00
Quote:
By the way, I would greatly appreciate help with a trollish language. It would not be as sophisticated as any of the other languages, but I need to name the clans and deity using their own language.


You can count me in:thumbup  I loved to work on the orcen language, perhaps I might be of use here? I'll think about the language and will look forward to your first ideas on it:thumbup  

Ishmaelion



Title: Re: Trolls: Brainstorming
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 14 September 2005, 02:25:00
1. How sentient are they?

Well, I would make them more sentient than ogres. You already have those as well, so no reason to make another race of big, stupid brutes me thinks. Maybe just make them primitive. They would be less sentient than orcs, humans and others, but still smart compared to ogres.

2. Would they have an organized religion?

Not organized, but they will probably all have a similar religion.

3. Am I allowed to create trollish deities?

Another possibility would be multiple gods that represent different parts of nature. Like the very first humans in RL had.

4. How many trolls are there in Caelereth, and how many of each species?

Well, one region you’ll have to add is the Tandala Highlands (see the Ban-Yuk Ogres)

5. Am I allowed to tweak their magical abilities?

I wouldn’t be against letting them keep their powerful magic.
Quote:
Troll's Magic
Trolls are not nearly as stupid, one-dimensionally orientated and brutish as some scholars would have you believe. Underestimating a troll's intellect has been the cause of many deaths when fighting them. Certain cultures of trolls have a magical tradition dating back for centuries at least. Troll magic is based on the channeling of life force from one object to another. In this context a powerful spell has been known to even leave the trollish caster dead. Due to this danger of applying their magical powers trolls with magical abilities normally work exclusively with supplier tasks such as healing or draining the life force from an opponent. In certain rare cases trolls have also been spotted to also raise different forms of undead creatures.

Raising undead creatures is something you could leave out, but I don’t see any reason why you would leave out the other things.



Title: Re: Trolls: Brainstorming
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 September 2005, 05:28:00
*gives Judy a dirty look for laying out traps with religious flavoured baits*


Very primitive cultured DON'T have normally one deity, that is a next step, they adore from what they think they are dependent of (sun=warmth) , what they think is mysterious (moon), what they fear (ghosts= earth-unknown noises behind the next bush, wind- noises in the  trees, fire-crackling..)
A mother goddess (no abstract male god!), which grows all the food every year is  advanced to that concept, but could go hand in hand (symbol on earth often a very pregnant woman , often without head!)

I agree with Marvin above.Don't take away too much from the old entry, apart from raising the dead. Or with what Judy said:do magic or be a magic being. I could well imagine, that they have on top of their healing magic the ability to do magic out of themselves - without being aware of it, maybe prolong the burning of a fire, if there is not enough wood there - ust for the need to not freeze to death (if our basic magic system allows this), things they just do to survive without thinking about it.

Then: Don't mix up primitive with stupid. Primitve tribes with just some fur cloths and no proper hunting equipment (not more than a branch as staff) may well be intelligent in their own way.

It would be too long to expain it here, but if anyone has read the Ayla books of Jean M.Auel - ( books about the rise of the Homo sapiens in confrontation with the Neanderthal man)
I found following idea there very intriguing: They(the Neanderthal men) don't have a proper language if at all (no organs for it), but they have a tribal organisation  and shamans as their leader. The shaman doesn't connect the tribe with any gods, but with the spritis of their anchesters. They have access to all the experience of their anchesters in the own bloodline. But, the problem is, they rely on these old experiences and are therefore unable to evolve forward, to master new things.

We don't have to apply this to the trolls, but maybe you could take the one or other idea out of it. Maybe, for a change to the orcs and ogres - the leader of the trolls could be the one with the highest magic abilities -the one who can fix broken bones quickly - which is essentiel for such tribes. don'tmake them too stupid, make them mysterious!

*frees herself from this trap an runs away*


 

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Trolls: Brainstorming
Post by: ishmaelion on 14 September 2005, 05:38:00
@Talia
Quote:
It would be too long to expain it here, but if anyone has read the Ayla books of Jean M.Auel - ( books about the rise of the Homo sapiens in confrontation with the Neanderthal man)


I read the books, but one thing you said :

Quote:
They(the Neanderthal men) don't have a proper language if at all (no organs for it), but they have a tribal organisation and shamans as their leader.


In the books, the neanderthals do have a language, being one with gestures and body language. This language is instinctive, but I think every semi-entient being will have a language, being in speech, or in bodylanguage.

Ishmaelion



Title: Re: Trolls: Brainstorming
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 September 2005, 06:29:00
Yes, I should not have said proper, but "vocal"??? Is this the right word? But you say it, that could be a language for troll! guestures and bodymovement

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Trolls: Brainstorming
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 14 September 2005, 06:44:00
Or, similar to the orcish language, a very limited vocabulary and the body languange filling the gaps.



Title: Re: Trolls: Brainstorming
Post by: Erian Melor on 14 September 2005, 07:21:00
In history, the concept of one god did come after that of many, so I agree with Talia on that one. I would think that they would not have as many gods as humans and elves. Maybe they would only have 3-5 gods? They would be aspects of nature, in my opinion. Any suggestions on what the gods could be? I don't want their deities to be similar to those of elves and men.

I like the idea of innate magical abilities, perhaps the more gifted among them would be considered to be 'blessed by the gods'? Then these 'blessed by the gods' would be both powerful and mysterious due to their magical abilities, and they would rule each community through the awe and fear the other trolls have of them. There would be magical abilities that all trolls would have: such as healing, sensing prey, prolonging a fire. Those 'blessed by the gods' (perhaps they would have their own word for these?) would have the same abilities, yet they would have greater skill in them. Perhaps they would be able to sense prey that is a stral away and heal others as well as themselves?

Instead of clans, maybe they would have bands instead? (not to be confused with music) There would be six bands, one for each species, and each band would consist of several communities.

Could I alter their territory so that swamps are not mentioned? There is not a swamp troll, and I'd prefer to stick to the original six species.

As far as the language is concerned, I have no skill with languages so any suggestions are very welcome! Thanx, Judith for those two words. I would like to have a name for each band (species) of troll in the trollish tongue (i.e. the entry on stone trolls would have the trollish name and then the words "Stone Troll" in paraentheses). Perhaps there could also be a name for those 'blessed by the gods'? Also, I think the loinclothes (fashioned out of hides) would have their own trollish name. Maybe each gender would have a trollish name as well?

Oh yeah, Judith, it is definately :loveeyes  


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some drizzle
Post by: Bard Judith on 14 September 2005, 07:33:00
I read the books!

They were one inspiration for suggesting the gesture-based language of the orcs - which is still such a new concept that I would prefer the trolls to take a different direction.  The orcs have a more sophisticated culture and require more vocabulary (whether vocal or gestural) to explain and convey ideas.

And yes, good distinction from Talia:  primitive does not necessarily =  stupid!  A member of the early Oceania or Aboriginal cultures might be wearing no more than a string around his hips, have no fabric production, glass-blowing, metallurgy, etc - but still be able to navigate across trackless oceans, using string and stick 'sextants' and 'maps' -  or find food in seemingly barren deserts, keep an oral record of waterholes, and create vibrant and expressive art.

However - I think trolls are primitive BECAUSE they are stupid!   :lol    No offense to any trolls who may be reading this....

Sorry, let me be serious and clarify:  we are suggesting a lower level of 'sentience', which has the connotations of both intelligence and awareness.  This would seem to indicate that the race does not have the mental capacity for larger thoughts - in other words, they are intellectually and physically not able to progress beyond, say, the third rung of link=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mas...y_of_needs]Maslow's hierarchy of needs[/link]    Note that religious belief is usually associated with the top level of transcendence, interestingly enough.  

Personal note:  In my experience, people who are struggling in the lower layers generally become more, not less needy, spiritually.  They are drawn closer to God or start thinking about the 'big issues' of life when hunger or other 'first needs' strike.  I'd disagree with Maslow in saying that every human has a need to answer the questions of life that is just as powerful as the other levels of need - rather than a hierarchy in which one level must be achieved before others are attained, I'd see this as a spiral.  One can deal with all the needs on a shallow basis, or delve deeper into each as one progresses emotionally/mentally/spiritually.  

The relevance of this to our discussion is that the trolls may well spend much of their time obtaining food and shelter, like most animals.  They may not have much of a sense of love and belonging, or a need for esteem.  But it will be there, just as a need for some 'higher power' (hate that phrase, but what else to say?) will be, no matter how simple.     The definition of their 'sentience', then,  will be an assessment of how shallow or how deeply they can move on that spiral.

Do they form personal bonds - one male and female coming together not only to mate, but to care for the resultant offspring of that union?   Are others in the group involved in that care?  Are the weak or wounded of the group ignored, or given at least minimal attention for their extra needs?  Do they have a sense of humour (based on the ability to predict and to feel surprise when those predictions are not met?)  

The difficulty here, of course, is that we may be taking our subconscious patterns from Terran neanderthals, or gorillas, but trolls are neither.  It requires some creative thought about the nature of intelligence, sentience, and culture to determine what this completely unique and alien race might be.  Spend some time with the pictures for a start, and try to imagine what thoughts might be behind those faces!  Should be interesting....




Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 September 2005, 09:06:00
Two notes:

Trolls are mammals, are they? Then this points to  a direction of relationship/bonds etc (mother/child, the need to bind a protector emotionally when heavy with a child and so on, male promiscuity, female fixation on one male, as long as he is strong?Even beasts care for each other if they live in a social pack.

Leadership can be build on authority and respect as well, don't has to be strength all time, especially not when magic abilities are in high esteem.

The paintings however show a different image - but the first impression can be wrong, you know ;)  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: ishmaelion on 14 September 2005, 11:29:00
hmm, the language will be interesting, making a form of communication without resorting to body-language or a very sophisticated form of grammar. I know of one RL language who has this in some measure. I'll try to find things about that language, forgot his name for now... Its principles are very simple. Per Example: If they want to say chicken, they say: kip; If they want to say chickens (plural) they say "kip kip" Verbs only have one form, like what we made in the orcish language.

Maybe the Trolls have a form of communication through growling. A warning, a command, etc. They would maybe be known by researchers, as they observed the trolls and their behaviour.

Just Suggestions:  

Ishmaelion



Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Erian Melor on 14 September 2005, 13:05:00
Hmmm....I like the idea of a language composed of words, growls, and grunts. Maybe someone could develop it?

I have a question for everyone. Would it be possible to change an entry that is already on the site, one that mentions trolls? I've been using the search engine to find entries with references to them, but one entry is going directly against what I've got planned (the rest just gave me ideas:D ). The entry is the Tandalan Sheep. It mentions that the sheep are able to outrun trolls, yet the sheep are not extraordinarily fast. I believe that speed is the only way for trolls to be good hunters, as stealth clearly is not an option. Also, it states that the sheep are able to hide from trolls using snow, but I intend to make the sensing of prey one of the trolls' abilities. I understand that Norkin was working off an old entry when he wrote it, but his entry makes trolls sound downright dumb. I think the trolls are primitive, and not stupid. I also do not like the myth about manicores attacking trolls. I see no reason why trolls would believe that the sheep are picked up by manticores or why they would believe that the sheep were struck by lightning. It seems to have almost nothing to do with the sheep and only states the stupidity of trolls. The entry on trolls states that they rarely wear more than loincloths, yet in the entry on the sheep: trolls are said to wear the sheep's horns. I am fine with the horns, as I can work with it and maybe even include it in their culture. I do not like asking for another person's entry to be changed, but his entry contradicts the original entry on trolls and the revision I am doing of it. I understand that I have to work with entries already on the site, and I am fine with that. For example, Rayne has mentioned stone trolls in a couple of her entries. Each time she did so, it was an original idea about them and did not contradict the existing entry. Her entries even gave me ideas on the appearance and housing of stone trolls. So, is it possible to change an entry already on the site, and would it require Norkin's permission to do so?


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 September 2005, 13:28:00
Asking Norkin is surely not a bad idea, and I hope he will agree, for it is a change in the trolls and not necessarily in the sheep.

A revision of a whole race, which grounds on the existing things, should not depend on a single entry. It doesn‘t hurt the sheep, if the trolls are faster. I haven‘t read the Tandala sheep, but what I see your reasons are valid. Maybe the member who approved the sheep didn‘t read the trolls too closely - everybody does mistakes, that is not a problem.
Though no entry should be judged by its importance - a well thought through concept of the trolls would be worth the altering of an existing entry, I think.

Let‘s talk it out, we all work at the same world, so there should be no problem in changing something, especially when the author is still here.  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 September 2005, 13:31:00
Quote:
Trolls are the largest of the giant races and are feared for their frightening appearance. They stand at an average of three to five peds at the shoulder


Have you really imagined, HOW huge they are, if they are five peds?  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 14 September 2005, 13:40:00
Well, I wouldn't be overly happy if you'd just go over the current references of the trolls and disregard them. Becaue quite obviousy it is mentioned as one of the special abilities of this sheep that it can hide in the snow, also that it can climb exceptionally steep hills. And maybe that is something where trolls aren't that good at.

Aren't their differences at trolls? For the snow trolls of Cyhalloi perhaps finding these sheep wouldn't be a problem - but a Tandalan troll might behave differently. - And hey, a story is a story, and to me it doesn't really say anything about stupid trolls, but only states the fact that they didn't catch the sheep and that there are even stronger foes, and that's it. I guess trolls - compared e.g. to ogres - are much more intelligent, which doesn't mean that they cannot have stories about "killer-sheep" if you so want... :biggrin  


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 9/13/05 21:44


Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Erian Melor on 14 September 2005, 13:42:00
Yeah, I did, and that was one thing that bothered me about the original entry. I would prefer it if they were 3-4 peds tall, so I'll change it to that. If anyone has a problem with me altering the height mentioned in the original entry, then just post said objection here.

About the Tandalan Sheep, the only problem I truly have with the entry is this statement:
Quote:
The trolls, however, have more farfetched ideas about the migration habits of the sheep; some say that if they leave the mountains they are miraculously set alight or struck by lightning or even that a manticore comes and picks them off one by one.
I do not intend to disregard the existing references for trolls and already have several ideas on the ways they could be intergrated into my revision. This part of the entry on the sheep clearly states that the trolls believe that, and that is not what I intend to have as any of the trolls' beliefs. I can live with the myth, as it is just that: a myth. The part about the trolls being outrun was also in the myth, so I can live with it as well. This is the only reference that I've found that actually stated the beliefs of trolls, the rest merely determined territory and appearance. Perhaps Norkin can be convinced to edit that statement? I would even be willing to provide a substitute if he still wants to include what Tandalan trolls believe.


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

Edited by: Erian Melor at: 9/13/05 21:52


Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 14 September 2005, 14:08:00


I read the Tandala sheep - a nice entry!

Well, as Art said, most is in the myth section and therefore no problem. The snow as camouflague and the sensing prey ability- there is surely a way around as well.
Your last quote - that is what researcher Norking or his sources found out - other researchers might find other beliefs, who are  even contradicting to this one.
Just talk with Norkin, what he thinks.
And talk to Judy, she is mentor of you both ;)

*goes back to her work*

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Grunok the Exile on 14 September 2005, 14:34:00
I think it would be cool if some trolls could grow up to 5 peds. I know that's massive, but I knda like the idea of -perhaps only one or two small- what were they, UTs?- of gigantic mountain trolls living up a set of mountains.

I think that there would be very few of these gigantic trolls, but they are maybe particularly fierce, killing one another off so that there are fewer to compete for resources...  I dunno, maybe that's one way you could manage it.

EDIT: I also thought you could have shorter trolls, perhaps in Cyllahoi or the Icelands, where there are less resources aorund for them to grow tall.

*Grabs herself by the scruff of the neck and tries to drag herself off in the direction of her essay*





Grunok's CD

Edited by: Grunok the Exile at: 9/13/05 23:23


Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Bard Judith on 14 September 2005, 19:07:00
Ok, I'm here.

(reads everything over carefully and thinks for a bit)

Erian:  Two things.  First, we try to respect precedence wherever possible - even if the person who 'follows' has to come up with some convolutedly clever reasoning or add extra information which expands the first entry.  So simply saying "I don't like this, can I change it" won't get you any debate points... :p   As Art has noted, that is a rarity, and we try to work around such issues wherever possible.

All right though,  you did provide your reasons, and what you were willing to 'accept' from Norkin's entry.  Let's look at the one sticking point you want changed.

Hmmmm.  To be completely frank, I don't see what the problem is here.  I think you may be misinterpreting Norkin's sentence altogether.  He doesn't say that the trolls believe that the TROLLS will be struck by lightning, etc. if they leave the mountain.... which I could understand would affect your planned religious beliefs.  What he says is that the trolls believe the SHEEP don't leave the area because then the SHEEP will be struck, chased, etc.  Since the sheep do remain in that one mountainous area, I think it's a clever little bit of urban legend (ok, country legend, whatever!)

Your job is then simply to make sure you incorporate a reference to the trollish belief in manticores (which see) at some point in your large and well-researched entry!

Does that perspective solve that particular problem, or are you still unhappy with that reasoning?

And btw where is Norkin?  I'll have to ask him to drop in and confirm a few things!  You may still have other issues with trolls being portrayed as dull in the Tandala Sheep entry, but please remember this:

The Compendium is written by people.  Actual people and virtual people.  Very often our more sophisticated writers take on different persona in order to create a believable environment for our readers.  I have written as an unorthodox Nehtorian priest, an unlettered cook, a tough ranger-maiden, an urbane bard, and many other characters, and my entries are more interesting for it.  In the same way, it's all right if an entry displays some 'prejudices' and attitudes.  The Sheep entry is primarily about the sheep, and the researcher is probably pro-ovine, not pro-troll! :lol

Don't forget - YOU are writing the Troll Master Entry - and YOUR entry will be the final say on Trolls, eventually.  The way in which they are portrayed there will wind up being the definitive way in which people see them.

 (At least, that's the theory.  I'm the Dwarven Mistress and RPGers still persist in playing Sarvonian dwarves as grammatically-impoverished, money-grubbing boozers, rather than the trust-worthy, loyal craftsmen they are...)

Whew!  I will have to go back and answer some of your other ideas and brainshowers in another post, but I hope that helps you proceed with this particular 'sheep' issue!

:hug  s from the bard,
Judith



Title: More periods of heavy rain, some drizzle and a bit of sun
Post by: Bard Judith on 14 September 2005, 19:22:00
Right: other things!

Height, etc.   I KNOW I just said we should work with what's there.  But the whole point about giving you permission to do the Trolls in the first place was so that you could fix all the problems in a very old submission, revise what you needed, etc. etc.   Norkin's and Rayne's entries are relatively recent and follow our current standards.  The current Troll entry, obviously, isn't, and doesn't.  So take what you like from there, as much as possible, and where things just do not make sense or there are internal contradictions - fix away!  

As Grunok suggested, you could make 5 peds the absolute maximum and a rarity.   And each 'clan' of course would with inbreeding begin to take on its own interesting physical characteristics.  High mountain trolls will probably be bigger and hairier, yes...

---------------------------------

Clans -> bands.... hmmm, ok, not my favorite word still, and a bit too nomadic/casual sounding.  Thesaurus: " association, band, brotherhood, bunch, clique, coterie, crew, crowd, crush, faction, folks, fraternity, gang, group, house, insiders, kinfolks, mob, moiety, organization, outfit, race, ring, sect, set, society, sodality, stock, tribe, association, blood, caste, clan, class, division, dynasty, horde, house, ilk, kin, kind, kindred, lineage, people, race, seed, society, sort, stock, type..."

"Mob"  :lol      I rather like 'caste', but it's too formal.   You don't care for 'tribe'?  It sounds the best when you add it to the descriptor:
"The Stone Tribe"  "The Sand Tribe"  etc.   Not to mention that you can then talk alliteratively about a 'tribe of trolls'.   Oh, feel free to do without Swamp Trolls, particularly if they aren't mentioned in the first place.

The correct word used to be 'pack', believe it or not.  "A troll pack is approaching the village!"  Has a good old-fashioned ring to it, and suggests that they are seen as animalistic by most humans...

-----------------------------------

Talia, as usual, has some good points about relationships and familiar bonding.  If trolls have even the affection and protection that a wolf family provides, that would be quite adequate to bring up healthy baby trolls!  Would also reinforce the 'pack' nature and concept that might help you design their culture.

-------------------------

Language:  Wouldn't take me long to design something fun and unique, but hey, I have a LOT on my plate right now.  And I know both 'Maelion and Marvin are great with languages.  'Mael, any chance of you throwing a short basic word list into this thread?   Just follow the two rules (grunting and CAPITALS) we've already developed, and run with it!

---------------------------

Good to see so many creative ideas in here. :clap
I can't think of anything more ATM so I shall drizzle off for now!



Title: Re: More periods of heavy rain, some drizzle and a bit of su
Post by: ishmaelion on 15 September 2005, 05:42:00
@Bard: I'll try and fix something up this present day:thumbup

EDIT: I am working with growling sounds, and am using the germanic pronunciation. the "g" is not like in guitar, but like in Dutch/German "ch". Low and gutteral. Is that okay?  

Ishmaelion

Edited by: ishmaelion  at: 9/14/05 13:58


Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Erian Melor on 15 September 2005, 07:11:00
First off, I do respect precedence, and I do intend to use the references that already exist on the site. I have only asked about this one entry and have no intention nor desire to edit any of the other references for trolls. His entry was the only one that actually states what trolls believe, and I think he assumed too much with his entry. I can work with the sheep being struck by lightning and set aflame (and no, I did not misinterpret that statement), as they are aspects of nature. For trolls to believe in manticores and that manticores pick up the sheep is a drastic deviation from what I intend to do with their beliefs. I am only asking that one statement be edited in his entry, an edit that will have no effect upon his sheep. I have sent an email to Norkin, hopefully he will show up soon with his opinion on the matter.


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: Re: More periods of heavy rain, some drizzle and a bit of su
Post by: Erian Melor on 15 September 2005, 09:01:00
Back to the brainstorming:

Using the search engine, I have found everywhere trolls are supposed to live. Luckily for me, there are exactly six places within the world of Caelereth where trolls live. So, I propose that each place be the home of a different tribe. Listed below are the tribes of trolls and their territories.

The Stone Tribe- The Stone Fields of Peat
The Cave Tribe- The Tandala Highlands
The Mountain Tribe- The Troll Mountains
The Snow Tribe- The Tundra of Cyhalloi
The Forest Tribe- The Forest of Souls
The War Tribe- The Wastes of Despair

I'll need help with the last two territories, as there is not enough information about them on the site. Could anyone give me a description of the Forest of Souls (located on the R'unor Isles)? I also need a description of the Wastes of Despair (located in Northern Sarvonia). Right now, I don't even know what kind of landscape the Wastes of Despair are: plains, swamp, etc...

I like the idea of one tribe being five peds high. Perhaps the War Tribe? I don't know enough about the Wastes of Despair right now to decide if they could be twisted creations of Eckra the Cruel. One idea I have is that the War Tribe could be Stone Trolls that were twisted by him, but that would only work if he were ever in that region.

I was thinking that trolls would have strong family bonds, with a young troll living with his parents for the first fifty years of his life. At the age of fifty, a troll would leave his family to seek a mate of his own. Another troll will not be born within the family until the young one leaves. Would this work as the reason that trolls only have three children in their lifespans?

As far is religion is concerned, they would worship the spirits of their ancestors instead of gods. Each time they killed an animal, they would sacrifice the blood of that animal to their ancestors in a ritual. There would also be a 'coming of age' for trolls, when they try to commune with the spirits of their ancestors as they seek guidance. Instead of those 'blessed by the gods' that I mentioned earlier, their leaders would be those with greater magical abilities. Such leaders would be believed to harbor the spirits of his ancestors and thereby adding their magic to his own. Every troll would have an innate ability to cast magic, healing, sensing prey, etc.., but the leaders would be able to sense prey a stral away, heal others, and commune with the spirits.

Any help with the language is very welcome, as I am helpless in this aspect of their development.


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: Re: More periods of heavy rain, some drizzle and a bit of su
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 15 September 2005, 12:13:00
How tall are giants?

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Troll Beliefs, Sheep, and Manticores
Post by: Bard Judith on 15 September 2005, 12:41:00
All right, the beliefs thing first, then I'll have the leisure to look at your latest proposal on the tribes.


The trolls, however, have more farfetched ideas about the migration habits of the sheep; some say that if they leave the mountains they are miraculously set alight or struck by lightning or even that a manticore comes and picks them off one by one.

Assuming now that you did not misinterpret the admittedly ambiguous grammar of this sentence, I still do not see the problem.  Perhaps you could give me a bit more detail about what you hope to create for the trollish belief system and we can discuss why this simple myth doesn't fit?  It seems such a minor point - and yes, that works both ways - but I really can't see why you need to change it.    

Let me make clear that's not a rude way of saying 'don't bother', that's my request for further information because I don't understand the difficulty - ok?

Edited by: Bard Judith at: 9/14/05 20:43


Title: Re: Troll Beliefs, Sheep, and Manticores
Post by: Bard Judith on 15 September 2005, 13:30:00
and back to brainstorming :)

-----------------------------------------------
Here are my comments on each tribe - I like the divisions you've created here, btw.  The names are a bit flat, but then again if they are direct translations from Trullish, they would be...


The Stone Tribe- The Stone Fields of Peat

Plenty of detail in the place entry by Rayne – even housing, etc.  Fairly primitive, skins and clubs.  You should have no problem extracting just what she has to create a paragraph of des-crip-tion for the Stone Tribe.  

The Cave Tribe- The Tandala Highlands

Good place entry by Rayne again.  One of the more sophisticated, trade with Gob-Oc for weapons.  You may need to create a bit more detail, particularly physical des-crip and a line or two about how their cave housing is created (don't step on any dwarven toes!)

The Mountain Tribe- The Troll Mountains

A bit more problematic as they are very close to human settlements (Acht and Holm).  Perhaps restrict them to the east side of the mountains, ranging out onto the undeveloped wild coast there.  You have a pretty free hand as the area does not yet have an entry.

I'd suggest making a name and short des-crip for the plain that comes down from the Troll Mountains to the coast - it's probably got plenty of deer and other natural resources for the trolls to use, but it must be rugged terrain or something else that makes it unappealing to human settlement.  :idea   Perhaps similar to the mosquito-ridden, muskeg swamps of Northern Ontario? With trolls' thick fur and skin, that shouldn't bother them... :)

The Snow Tribe- The Tundra of Cyhalloi

Only one entry, nicely descriptive by Viresse - Cyhalloi is not under development at this time.   You would have to say that little is known about them… but the Snow Trolls are quite monstrous by the few accounts we do have - white fur/hair, red eyes, animalistic.    Unfortunately, this does NOT fit with the single picture we have by Isilhir, showing some wolf-shapeshifters, the Ulvur, fighting Snow Trolls.  www.santharia.com/races/r...trolls.jpg

Perhaps, and I make this suggestion only in an attempt to reconcile the information given:  there are two troll tribes in Cyhalloi, or at least two branches of the same ‘family’.  Snow Trolls – as shown in the picture, huge, tusked, gauntlet-and-skull-and-fur-wearing monsters, with long clawing talons and beak-like noses – would be one branch.  Ice Trolls would be the strange, yeti-like beasts that appear out of the snow to steal hunters’ kills – white-furred, red-eyed, upright giants.  

The Forest Tribe- The Forest of Souls

R’unor is currently not in development.  There is no descrip of the Forest of Souls.  The original conceptor, Xenos Ravenbeack, is no longer with us.  You can mention that these trolls exist in this region, but that’s about it.   I can extrapolate that the forest is a pretty old, overgrown, dark, and tangled jungle, from its location and name and the fact that trolls, crystal spiders, and blood-toads live there!   Really, that’s about it for R’unorian information…


The War Tribe- The Wastes of Despair

No one ‘knows’ at this point what the Wastes look like.  However, a quick glance at our maps and a rummage through the Compendium’s search function will tell you that they exist on the northeast edge of Sarvonia, at the very top of the continent.   Looking at the area, they are permafrost peat swamps, if you ask me.    Probably flat, razor-edged packed snow, wind-swept (the wind coming straight in off the frozen Ice Sea) where nothing seems to grow, even a few stunted bushes.   It would be quite a trick for anything to actually live there (I’m not going to bother to do the search, but you can have a look and see if there’s anything in the region for food sources for the trolls besides white bears, Woolly Cobs, and Rat Brownies!) , not to mention create housing, so it’s going to take some creative sourcing to get a troll tribe in there….

------------------------------------------------------------------

:read  Very Important Note:

Let me make sure that you understand that you are writing the OVERVIEW for the Troll Race, Erian.

You are not required nor requested to write all of the sub-entries that will result!  In fact, you should avoid providing so much detail that future researchers and writers are not able to use their own creative energies in filling in those entries.  

We need a paragraph or so – no more – on each tribe, and the main differences and highlights.   Then you should provide the general information on trollish religion, trollish mating/reproduction, trollish resources,  production (if anything), and so on through the rest of the sections.  

Even though this sounds as if you are being limited, it’s not: this is a big responsibility, because you have an entire race to deal with, and I want to impress upon you the seriousness of that implication.      This is particularly complicated because it’s not just limited to the one continent, where we have such a plethora of information, as you’re just beginning to discover!

You must be able to give this entry your unique creative flair without handcuffing the other developers. We don’t want “Jesalmia of Cyhalloi”, five years from now, asking if she can rewrite everything you put down for the Snow Trolls because it just doesn’t fit with her vision of the trollish culture in Cyhalloi.  And when Cyhalloi is opened to development again, you can bet your last copper san that things will be changing!   So keep it free and easy, and everyone will appreciate it.

Hope that helps you feel your direction a bit more clearly, Erian!  Looking forwards to more ideas and proposals regarding religion and beliefs…

regards from the bard,
Judith

"If you will listen to this lay but a little while now,
I will tell it at once as in town I have heard it told,
as it is fixed and fettered in story brave and bold,
thus linked and truly lettered, as was loved in this land of old."


J.R.R.Tolkien, 'Sir Gawain and the Green Knight'



Title: Re: Troll Beliefs, Sheep, and Manticores
Post by: Erian Melor on 15 September 2005, 13:38:00
I have no idea about the height of giants. The only thing I could find on the site was that they are lightly colored and bulky.

As far as the beliefs are concerned, their worship of ancestors and respect for the dead are the main points to keep in mind. They bury their dead, believing that without a proper burial the spirit will be trapped in the corpse for centuries and unable to join the ancestors. The manner in which a troll is buried varies depending upon the tribe. Every race has its evil members and criminals, these are not given a proper burial so that their evil spirits will be trapped within the corpse. Trolls believe that the evil spirits do eventually get free and are the cause for natural disasters, i.e. forest fires and storms. Only the leader of a tribe is able to banish an evil spirit, using their magical abilities and their ability to commune with their ancestors. A leader that is unable to do so is cast from the tribe, i.e. if a leader cannot stop a storm.

I've considered having the evil spirits be able to manifest as manticores, but it just doesn't work. If they have a belief that evil spirits can have a physical form, then they may well believe that their ancestors manifest as animals and members of other races. Believing that about their ancestors would mean that they would never eat out of respect for the dead. I do not want them to believe in reincarnation, and spirits manifesting as creatures, mythical or mundane, would be just that as the spirits were once trolls themselves.

I am open to suggestions on ways to incorporate manticores into their beliefs, but I have considered it since I first noticed that about the entry on Tandalan sheep. I cannot see any way to include them in the trollish beliefs.

Edit: I must write very slow.:x  I just saw your post when I finished my own. So, it seems like only the Cave and Mountain Tribes could be fully developed at this point, as they are both in Southern Sarvonia. I know I am not required to write every entry for trolls, but I want to. I know that I will probably not write every entry on trolls as I may be forced to share them.>:  Just so everyone knows, my next entry will most likely be either the Mountain Tribe or the Cave Tribe. Of course, I'll finish the overview first.

I read the legend about the Tundra Beast, and it seems like it could be a monster just as easily as it could be a troll. It is only rumored to be a troll. I make that argument since the description of the Tundra Beast does not fit the original entry on trolls, nor does it fit any of the pictures. Maybe someone will use that legend in the future to create a land monster that inhabits the tundra of Cyhalloi?  


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

Edited by: Erian Melor at: 9/14/05 22:00


Title: Re: Troll Beliefs, Sheep, and Manticores
Post by: Bard Judith on 15 September 2005, 19:01:00
"Trolls believe that the evil spirits do eventually get free and are the cause for natural disasters, i.e. forest fires and storms."

I particularly like this!  A great touch.  Yes, I agree that reincarnation doesn't work for the trollish belief system.  Corpses, then, have to be disposed of in a ritual which might be crude but still counts as part of a consistent 'religion'.  

Brainstorm:  Could manticores be a sort of Wendigo for them?  :crazy   If not, you might still want to create a Wendigo-type - one of the evil spirits which is more powerful (or the Evil Spirit Clan leader, as trolls might think of it...)

Norkin hasn't responded to any of my recent posts, so let's just give that whole sheep issue a miss for now - don't worry about it, just keep developing 'around it' at this point, if you could.

I'll buy the Tundra Beast idea as a monster rather than a troll.  It just occurred to me that it would make a nice variant to have two different branches of the same 'tribe' on the continent - but no biggy.

Ok, all for now...



Title: Re: Troll Beliefs, Sheep, and Manticores
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 16 September 2005, 01:14:00
The icetribes live north of the wastes of despair. The entry tells, that part of the land defrosts for up to three months, so this might be true or the more southern wastes as well. The have a special kind of grass there, etc...
I could well imagine, that the trolls have the one or the other fight with the southern icetribe - the way they are described.

The coloured Cyhalloi trolls could live in the trees the Ulvur cherish so much, the other in regions where is not such a high vegetation, but just snow and ice.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: TRUL
Post by: ishmaelion on 16 September 2005, 03:45:00
Okay, I've created some words, hope you all like them.;)
It might be hany to create a part about pronunciation, because it isn't easy to growl AND from words. I've done my best though:p  "GH" is pronounced as ch or ggg. long, low and gutteral, like a grunt. "KH" is pronounced as a very short, loud KHE.VERY LOUD AND SHORT!!! So, a word like NIGHAKHAUT (Forest tribe) is pronounced: ni-ggg-a-KHA-ut!
Okay, here they are:

GHANNAKH = ?Male?
GHOMOGH = ?Female?
MESH = White
MASHEGH = Loin-cloth
MOSHMOSH = (Sheep:p , no, just kidding) it means Food
TRUL = Troll
UT = Clan, tribe, group
AAGHUT = War tribe
KLOHNUT = Mountain tribe
MESHIGHUT = Snow Tribe
IGHUT = Stone tribe
NIGHAKHAUT = Forest tribe
GHEREGHUT = Cave tribe
AAGH = Attack
KHEGH! = Watch out (not in a positive manor)
EKH! = STOP!

HEre they are for now, more will follow, but if y'all can check if this is what you were thinking of, I'd be much obliged.:read

Ishmaelion



Title: Re: TRUL
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 16 September 2005, 05:52:00
Maybe this will be a language even I will master ! ;)  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: TRUL
Post by: Erian Melor on 16 September 2005, 07:59:00
Ishy, I love the language!:loveeyes

I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to put trolls in sentient trees. It would be interesting if a few tribes did, such as the Forest Tribe, but drasils are not ordinary trees.

Maybe the Ice Trolls could be rumored to be trolls, yet some researchers believe that they are monsters. Sorta like how Susilgerim dwarves are believed by some to be a subspecies of dwarf. The Snow Tribe would have a myth about how the tribe split into two tribes. The Ice Trolls could even be untrollish, if that's even a word.

Hmmm....a Wendigo. I've got an idea for a creation myth. The trolls believe that when the world was young two trolls were the only thing that walked upon its surface. They were much larger than ordinary trolls and lived for millennia. The two trolls were twin brothers, one good and one evil. During their lifetimes, they constantly struggled with one another, fighting to see which would prevail. The good brother wanted to create and live in harmony with nature, but the evil one only wanted to destroy and dominate. The good brother created the herbivores of the land (sheep, cattle, etc..) and he planted every tree and plant. The evil brother created the predators and natural disasters to destroy what his twin had created. Though they lived for millennia, they were not immortal. Both died at the same time and from their corpses sprang the trolls. Though the twins were dead, they were not powerless and their spirits continue to watch over the trolls. The good brother welcomes the spirits of the ancestors and blesses the trolls with good hunting. The evil brother is not as powerful as he once was, and he can only whisper promises to those that he would turn to evil. His minions become evil spirits when they die and wreak havoc upon the world.

I know that's very raw, the final version will have more details and flow better. Any suggestions on how the myth could be improved? I'm considering having some tribes be destructive and the others creative, sorta like how elves are divided (dark elves and wood elves). The basis for this would be that some tribes sprang from the good brother's corpse, and other tribes sprang from that of the evil brother. This would also explain why certain tribes of trolls turn to stone in the sunlight, the good brother cursed them for their involvement with his evil twin and they can no longer wreak havoc during the day. Also, the good brother would rule the day, and the evil brother would rule the night. So, some tribes would be dirunal, and some would be nocturnal.

Hmmm....Perhaps Ishy can come up with names for the brothers? Ones that reflect their contrasting natures? It would be greatly appreciated.:biggrin  Also, the Ice Tribe would need a name.  


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: Re: TRUL
Post by: Bard Judith on 16 September 2005, 08:18:00
(rolls around laughing) :rollin

Oh yes, this is great!  You are off to a very good start here, 'Maelion!  I like how you've incorporated the doubling of syllables as a pluralization, I think the sound and look of the language is very trollish,  and the vocabulary list starts with the most crucial words...

Perhaps you could separate all combined words though, so that your units of meaning stand out more clearly. For example, 'forest' would seem to be NIGHAKHA ...

Since I see IGH means 'stone, rock, etc' I'd be cautious  about using that phoneme in unrelated senses.  

'Forest' might be better as NIKNIK (making NIK mean' tree')?

And 'mountain' might quite naturally then be 'lots of rock, large rock'.  Though I like the look of KLOHN...

You should have a word for 'big, large, more, most, much, strong' and the parallel for 'little, small, lesser, weak'.  This will allow you to form quite a few agglomerate words.  What about KLOH for 'big' etc. and SNI  (pronounced 'snee' with lips drawn back) for 'small'?

'mountain' would logically then be KLOIGH (dropping the H where it would only confuse pronunciation) and 'pebble' could be SNIGH (dropping the double letters as necessary)

Some comments, revisions, suggestions on the vocab list so far:

GHANNAKH = Male Troll
GHOMOGH = Female Troll
GH = Being (untranslatable literally.  Has the connotation of 'sentience' or 'living'.  Animals and some plants can be described with the GH syllable.)
NAKH = Maleness (also male genitals, strength, energy, creating)
MOGH = Femaleness (also female genitals, encompassing, protecting, gathering)
MESH = White, snow, clouds
HAMESH = Ice, quartz (literally, 'hard white')
GHEREGH = Cave, home, house, dwelling
MASH = Garment, cloth, covering
NAKHMASH = Loin-cloth
MOGHMASH = X-shaped wrap which covers/supports groin and breasts
MOSHMOSH = (Sheep:p  , no, just kidding) it means Food
TRUL = Troll
TRULTRUL = Trolls, the race of Trolls, all trolls in a group, 'us'.
UT = Clan, tribe, group
AAGHUT = War tribe  (Perfect etymology here!)
KLOIGHUT = Mountain Tribe
MESHUT = Snow Tribe
IGHUT = Stone Tribe
NIKNIKUT = Forest Tribe
GHEREGHUT = Cave Tribe
AAGH! = Attack!
KHEGH! = Beware, watch out!
EKH! = Stop!

Some grammatical observations/ideas:  All verbs are phrased as   present-tense imperatives.  No pronouns ( literally translated, a hunt story might go like this: "GHWERG HIT SHEEP. SHEEP NOT DIE!  BITE SHEEP... SHEEP DIE.  GOOD TASTE!"  There, my version of a Troll epic!  Yes, it sounds primitive.  So it should.  But the language will still be effective in conveying meaning.  And bear in mind that anything with a face and jaw like the pictures is not going to be speaking more sounds than it can help... :P )  A few basic adjectives (good, bad, hot, cold, high, low, large, small)  are needed.    

This is a great start!  Let's have more!

:clap  



Title: Re: TRUL
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 16 September 2005, 09:40:00
I didn't talk of drasils ,Eratin, but of the ordinairy trees the Ulvur cherish as well and don't want to see harmed. If I would have meant the drasil, I would have named them. Look at the pic of the Ulvur town, then you know what I mean.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 9/15/05 17:42


Title: Re: TRUL
Post by: ishmaelion on 16 September 2005, 10:08:00
KLOH = Big, large, more, most, much, strong
SNI = Little, small, lesser, weak
GHANNAKH = Male Troll
GHOMOGH = Female Troll
GH = Being (untranslatable literally. Has the connotation of 'sentience' or 'living'. Animals and some plants can be described with the GH syllable.)
NAKH = Maleness (also male genitals, strength, energy, creating)
MOGH = Femaleness (also female genitals, encompassing, protecting, gathering)
KLOIGH = Mountain
SNIGH = Pebble
MESH = White
IGHMESH = Snow (lit. white stone)
HAMESH = Ice, quartz (literally, 'hard white')
GHEREGH = Cave, home, house, dwelling
MASH = Garment, cloth, covering
NAKHMASH = Loin-cloth
MOGHMASH = X-shaped wrap which covers/supports groin and breasts
MOSH = Animal
MOSHMOSH = Food
TRUL = Troll
TRULTRUL = Trolls, the race of Trolls, all trolls in a group, 'us'.
NIKH = Tree
UT = Clan, tribe, group
AAGHUT = War tribe
KLOIGHUT = Mountain Tribe
IGHMESHUT = Snow Tribe
IGHUT = Stone Tribe
NIKNIKUT = Forest Tribe
GHEREGHUT = Cave Tribe
HAMESHUT = Ice Tribe
SNITRUL = Human, Elf, Orc
SNISNITRUL = Dwarf, Brownie, other non-Troll small races.
SNIHUT = Human race, Elf race, etc. (used to address the race as a whole)  
AAGH! = Attack!
KHEGH! = Beware, watch out!
EKH! = Stop!
LAGH = negative
MARGH! = Die! (also Death)
GRUMPH = Bite!
ZAGHAKHA = mmm, tasty, yummie
MARGHOGH = Evil
KHOLEM = Good

@Bard, your Trol Epic would go like this: GWERGH AAGH MOSH. MOSH LAGH MARGH! GRUMPH MOSH…MOSH MARGH. ZAGHAKHA!

@Erian: Those two names, after giving it some thought, I came up with MARGHOGH for the evil brother and KHOLEM for the good one. Hope you like them. I added their names as definitions of Evil and Good in the vocabulary list...:thumbup

Will add more later, thanks for all your comments

Ishmaelion

Edited by: ishmaelion  at: 9/15/05 20:14


Title: Re: TRUL
Post by: Coren FrozenZephyr on 16 September 2005, 14:07:00
If need Trolls on Nybelmar, please ring me first! There are certain areas I really wish to keep non-Trul(ish).



Title: Re: TRUL
Post by: Erian Melor on 16 September 2005, 14:15:00
The Forest of Souls on the isles of R'unor is the only place I intend to place trolls within Nybelmar. The entry on the isles already states that there is a troll population within the forest, so you'd have to change that entry if you object to their presence there. The rest of Nybelmar would be troll-free as that is the only place on the continent that mentions trolls. Instead of creating new places for them, I am placing each tribe where trolls are supposed to live within the world of Caelereth.

A tribe of trolls living in trees on the continent of Cyhalloi could work, but they could not live too close to the Ulvur.

Ishy, once again you've done an awesome job with the language.:thumbup  


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: Re: More periods of heavy rain, some drizzle and a bit of su
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 16 September 2005, 17:21:00
A couple of suggestions, and questions, some of which others have touched on as well:

I like the wolf pack suggestion,  but with some necessary exceptions. For instance, there should be more than one mated and off-spring producing pair at once.  Trolls are fiercer and more aggressive than wolves.  Trolls could be hunter/gatherers as opposed to just carnivores.

Trolls perhaps have non-nomadic lifestyle? (live in caves maybe, or do they make rudimentary dwellings?) Do Trolls have fire?

Troll religion--probably more of a fear of "the powers out there" (i.e, whatever causes storms, avalanches, etc) and a desire to assuage their wrath or gain their favor --troll witch doctor/shaman/priests?  Or would this be a leader's responsibility, to direct the pack in ways and behaviours that seem to be pleasing to the "Great Unknown" or whatever they would call it.

Anyway, Erian, a few things for you to think about, hmm? :D  

Alysse the Likely



Title: Re: More periods of heavy rain, some drizzle and a bit of su
Post by: Erian Melor on 16 September 2005, 17:53:00
Quote:
For instance, there should be more than one mated and off-spring producing pair at once.
I really don't know what you mean here. Are you saying that the females would have more than one mate at a time?

I agree with the hunter/gatherers as I had intended for them to be that with the males as the hunters and the females as the gatherers. Females would be treated better than they are in orcish society, but they would still be considered to be inferior to males (maybe the orcs are on to something?:lol   j/k)

I was thinking that trolls would live somewhere for years and only move on once the food supply runs low. They create rudimentary dwellings and they live in caves, it depends upon the tribe. Look at what I've written so far in the revision for more details about their nomadic lifestyle.

Yup, they would basically fear evil spirits. Some tribes of trolls would try to appease them and others would fear them. The leader would be the one to commune with spirits and guide each band with his magical abilities and greater intelligence (I mean greater than the other trolls, he wouldn't be that smart)

And yeah, they have fire. The leader would even have the ability to prolong the life of a fire without stuff to burn.

Judith, what is your opinion of the myth I posted earlier? And what do you think of trolls being divided similar to the way elves are?


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

Edited by: Erian Melor at: 9/16/05 1:55


Title: Re: More periods of heavy rain, some drizzle and a bit of su
Post by: Bard Judith on 16 September 2005, 20:10:00
OK, some good solid concepts coming together here! :clap  

I don't think Coren will have any objection if you can provide the reference link for Nybeltruls, Erian.  We are only working with what already exists, and I think the way you're dealing with that will work just fine - isolated enclaves in undeveloped areas.  


My comments on the myth below are in yellow!:


I've got an idea for a creation myth. The trolls believe that when the world was young two trolls were the only thing that walked upon its surface.

And how did they get there?  Perhaps look at the Scandinavian cycles for inspiration here - there might be different versions from tribe to tribe.  Eg. the Ice Trolls say that first there was only ice and snow everywhere in the world.  Then an avalanche happened, and two troll bodies were formed out of the upheaval and snowy boulders.  The wind gave them breath, the sun shone and melted the blood in their veins, and so they came to be..... etc. etc.

They were much larger than ordinary trolls and lived for millennia. The two trolls were twin brothers, one good and one evil. During their lifetime, they constantly struggled with one another, fighting to see which would prevail. The good brother wanted to create and live in harmony with nature, but the evil one only wanted to destroy and dominate. The good brother created the herbivores of the land (sheep, cattle, etc..) and he planted every tree and plant. The evil brother created the predators and natural disasters to destroy what his twin had created. Though they lived for millennia, they were not immortal. Both died at the same time and from their corpses sprang the race of trolls. Though the twins were dead, they were not powerless and their spirits continue to watch over the trolls. The good brother welcomes the spirits of the ancestors and blesses the trolls with good hunting. The evil brother is not as powerful as he once was, and he can only whisper promises to those that he would turn to evil. His minions become evil spirits when they die and wreak havoc upon the world.


This is promising, but the concepts of good and evil are rather humanoid and prejudiced here.  Would trolls truly think that making things was preferable to destroying things?  Do they consider art 'better' than battle?  Do present-day trolls try to 'live in harmony with nature'?   Hmmmmm.... I'm not convinced about this.  You might try to make it less Manichean in nature (less 'white vs black').  

I do like the idea of a division, of diurnal and nocturnal trolls (which would explain things nicely and leave room for future developers and artists to create ideas without being bound to perpetual 'nighttime' pictures...) but perhaps have the brothers disagree about how to live in the world - or when to live.

Or steal that old Native American myth about how death came into the world......  hmmmm.... :idea  


"Grrndrig the Sun and Hwool the Moon saw the two brothers, and saw them living for many sunsets and moonrises, time upon time.  They talked with each other and found that even when they 'died', the sun by night and the moon by day, the brothers were still active and present upon the earth.  So they became jealous and formed a plan.   Grndrig sought out Kphantrul-brother.  Hwool spoke with Soghrn-brother.  And they offered them a choice.

"Would you live forever but suffer pain as you grow ever older, burned by day and made mad by night?  Or would you live at peace with us and die as we do, to return?"

Kphantrul wished to live forever, but Soghrn chose death and rebirth, thinking that as the sun and moon came back each morning and evening, so he would do.

And so the brothers disagreed about which path to take..."

etc. etc.   I won't bother to finish this unless you like the idea.  Of course it leads into Soghrn's choice, as the moon and sun want, and that gives you two pourquois for one tale - not bad!

The names are only placeholders btw - I'm sure Maelion has something for you by now!

Edited by: Bard Judith at: 9/16/05 4:27


Title: Re: More periods of heavy rain, some drizzle and a bit of su
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 16 September 2005, 23:38:00
Just a question:

Have such primitive people as the trolls such detailed and sophisticated myths? How do they tell the myths - with their rudimentary language? They would fit so far humans.

The orcs are a quite advanced race, so seeing the woman as inferiour in such a war tribe is possible.

And an info:

The trolls are a very primitive society and mammals. As far as I know were ALL primitive cultures  matriarchats, for the women could give birth and were so mysterious and very important for the  tribe's survival. I don't see the need, to make the women inferior, for there is no need as well to design them much weaker as the males. Even childbearing must not be a big issue as in human tribes.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: More periods of heavy rain, some drizzle and a bit of su
Post by: ishmaelion on 17 September 2005, 01:38:00
Hey,
Are these two brothers going to reflect Day and Night?
I had these two names: MARGHOGH for the evil/night brother and KHOLEM for the good/day brother. I thought the GH would give the night-brother a more evil look, while the simple pureness of KHOLEM reflects the good/sun Side...
Well, they are just ideas...

Ishmaelion



Title: Re: More periods of heavy rain, some drizzle and a bit of su
Post by: Erian Melor on 17 September 2005, 08:35:00
About the myth, I've been thinking about it, and I think it would be better if the brothers were always spirits. The trolls would then be their creations and would not spring from their corpses, that is too similar to reincarnation for my taste. KHOLEM created the world and everything in it. His final and greatest creation was the trolls who were noble creatures that lived in harmony with nature. They were graceful and beautiful, and it was rare for any one of them to even raise his voice. Their ability to heal and commune with spirits were his gifts to them. MARGHOGH was jealous of his brother, and he twisted the trolls into monstrous beings. He gave them their size, grotesque features, voracious appetite, thick skin, and violent natures. It was his desire to have a creature that would destroy everything his brother had created. MARGHOGH could not create, he could only twist and destroy. Some tribes try to live in harmony with nature and become the noble creatures they once were, but others have embraced the path of destruction and worship MARGHOGH.

I know many would disagree with me about trolls living in harmony with nature, but this is the way I see trolls. The tribes that worship KHOLEM would try to live in harmony with nature but would be unable to do so. The trolls would believe that the world shifts when the sun sets. KHOLEM rules the world of daylight, and MARGHOGH rules the night. Also, trolls would seek shelter during the twilight hours, as they do not want to become lost between the worlds when the shift happens. The ones that worship MARGHOGH would turn to stone if touched by sunlight, as KHOLEM does not want such betrayers roaming his realm. I think the best way to describe the creation of the brothers would be to simply say that they have always been here and always will be. Or at least that is what a troll would say. Instead of black vs. white, it would be chaos vs. order.

You're right, Talia, there is no reason to make the women inferior. They would not be much weaker than the males, and would certainly be stronger than any male of any other race. I think trolls could tell the myths with their language, it just would not be very detailed.

Ishy, the names are great!:thumbup

What perspective should I use when I write this entry? I was thinking that the best way to portray trolls would be from the point of view of someone that met them and managed to survive. Someone that would greatly fear trolls. The only problem I have is that how would such a person know a troll's beliefs, or the way trolls believe they were created? A troll could tell the tale, but then he'd have to speak Tharian and that would be rare for a troll. A person of another race living among trolls would not work, since they would just eat him. Any suggestions?


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: This isn't RIGHT!
Post by: Bard Judith on 17 September 2005, 10:40:00
Erian, creative as the myth is, it CAN'T be a trollish myth!

This is all wrong, all of it.  My story too! (tears her hair out in frustration and hopes she can explain herself...) >:

Talia is right that it sounds like something told by a human, but not because of the language (I wrote my version just to get the story across to you as a suggestion, not as if it were translated from the Trullish)

Let's think about it:  What race actually believes themselves to be a twisted perversion of perfection?   The trolls are a simple, primitive species - they can't have such a sophisticated, multi-layered, modern psychological view of themselves!   If a troll thinks about himself - his character, where he came from - it is impossible that he sees himself as warped, evil, changed from some harmonious perfection.

He simply IS what he is, and that is the way everything has always been.  Sure, they live close to nature, but they don't analyse, they simply do.  Think about a Matto Grosso Indian tribe, or a Neanderthal clan - there is none of the introspective morbidity that characterizes a modern urbanite!  

In fact, the more I think about it, the less I like this duality.  Chaos versus order, good versus evil...   It is simply too sophisticated.  Duallity works for the elves, but it isn't going to work for the trolls, and I shouldn't even have suggested the 'death' myth.  :X  

Go back to your 'spirit brothers' idea and let's see if there is something that can come out of that - or better yet, try the matriarchal angle and say that the race of trolls was born from a great chasm-womb in the earth when She was first new....

Sorry to set you haring off down the wrong track.  (shakes head ruefully)  I hope we can regroup and get something started that is more in line with their culture and intellect.



Title: Re: This isn't RIGHT!
Post by: Erian Melor on 17 September 2005, 13:44:00
Nooooo.....I like my myth!:(

But you are right, it is far too complicated for trolls. I guess I was trying to force them to be something that they're not.

Hmmm....things got complicated when I introduced the brothers. So, remove them and write the myth as though I were a troll.:crazy

I think I can work with the born of the earth idea. It would nicely explain why burying their dead is so important. Having them born in a fiery chasm would also be in line with what the original entry said about the elements they were created from in the Carpa'dosia. Also, I was going to make it where the leaders of a community stared into a bonfire to commune with the spirits of their ancestors, and the leaders would be able to prolong the life of a fire. So, the first trolls would be born in the fiery chasm, and there would be no spirit brothers.

Without the duality, I can't find a reason for some trolls to turn to stone yet others do not. Trolls turning to stone is a part of Scandinavian folklore, and is what Tolkien based his trolls upon. I'd say that either all trolls turn to stone in the sunlight or none of them do. The original entry is the only place where it is mentioned that trolls turn to stone, so this could be changed. Personally, I'd prefer it if they did not turn to stone as their creation myth would then have to include a reason why. Also, some of the tribes may have no choice but to walk in the sunlight, depending upon their territories.  


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: Re: This isn't RIGHT!
Post by: Bard Judith on 17 September 2005, 19:42:00
:(  Yeah, I know - I got carried away myself....  Sowwy, my bad!

But if you like the chasm and it will tie other elements together, that's a good fresh start!  You seem to have a strong rationale for that working which I didn't think of - I like the bonfire communing, for one.  (Trivia for you:  origin of the word 'bonfire' was 'bonefire'... brrrrrrr! :P )

I hate to lose the 'turning to stone' though.  Not only is it very much part of the trollish mythos, it's Tolkien ( :worship  ) and it works well with the Fields of Peat entry.

:idea   How about this!  

Rather than some sort of instantaneous transmogrification when sunlight strikes troll flesh, why not have sunlight be painful to them (rather like vampires...) - it causes a long-term hardening of their skin which makes it difficult for them to move - frequent exposure to sunlight would indeed cause almost total petrification!  :D

This is not too far 'over the top' for Caelereth, as the Thergerim race undergo something similar (though not sunlight-related) as they age.  In their case it has to do with calcification of their already-heavy joints, although they don't know that.

Thus you have a good reason for the human 'myth' that trolls turn to stone in sunlight, a reason for trolls to avoid (though not shun completely) direct sunlight, and a strong impetus to shape their culture.    You could also rework a bit of my 'death myth' suggestion to create a troll legend about why they and the sun are enemies (of course they would have their own word for 'sun', not Injera).  

What do you think?  Could we work with that?



Title: Re: This isn't RIGHT!
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 18 September 2005, 03:49:00
You might come into some troubles with your stonyfication idea.

- Not all trolls live in caves, some live in dense forests, where it is not always very dark, or ice, where they would need to build kind of iglues then (too complicated?) .all pictures show the trolls at daylight. (skin-colour is wrong as well!)
- They have a very hard skin anyway, impenetralble for knives and so on - how should sunlight do anything to this skin?

But I got an idea for you: skip your idea of burrying them in earth, but let them die by changing to stone with the time when they are old. They can't move less and less, they need the care of their tribe foodwise, at some point they just have turned to something hard and after a year or so (or longer), they have turned completely to stone. You can have endless ceremonies when the point is reached, that they don't need any food, or can't eat any food anymore. and they are going back to mother earth as well, turning to stone and maybe they are rooted deep into the soil.  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Dwarven Death
Post by: Bard Judith on 18 September 2005, 07:35:00
Um - Talia - that is EXACTLY the way the Thergerim die.  Sorry, that idea has already been used, Erian!  

For some reason I cannot find the entry on Dwarven Death (though 'Time of Stone' is referenced) in the Compendium, which annoys me, because I've submitted it at least twice in the past.  Well, perhaps that is one of the reasons the whole Dwarven area is under rework - to link properly all the bits of information and knowledge we have about the Thergerim.   It's no wonder Talia couldn't find anything about dwarven beliefs in the underworld/afterlife earlier!  So, without more ado, I'll just copy and paste the relevant text from my own home computer...

----------------------------------------------------------


Aging, Death, Funerals

Dwarves remain active and vigorous well into their late age, but eventually a certain physical change overtakes them, relatively suddenly.  In about the course of a month or so, the elderly dwarf will find it much more difficult to move about than she used to.  Her bones feel heavy and massive, her joints solidifying and grating together. Her skin becomes even more rougher,  almost scaly and calloused, and sensation dims.   Her eyes will film and begin to bulge slightly, so that only far-off objects become clear and focused.  In an underground low-light environment where fine work is prized, this is a severe handicap.  The dwarves say that this change in vision is preparing them to ‘see Trum-Baroll beneath the earth’, and they call this time of change ‘Pragorsthomm’, the Stone-Turning.   When the Pragorsthomm begins, a dwarf must put his affairs in order, dispose of his personal possessions, and prepare for his funeral, as he will have one to three months before ‘Aveferpesthomm’, the Time of Stone -  death -  overtakes him.  

“S/he has become stone” is the way dwarves refer to a dead dwarf - a euphemism for ‘Khorimyeh’, to die, or ‘Khorim’, death.  The dwarf is mourned with physical ex-pressions of grief that are restrained and low-key, but deeply felt.  It is believed that this form of mourning and the attendant rituals were evolved out of the Thergerim sensitivity to excess noise, as well as a security precaution - loud wails could carry well through rock, attract unwanted attention, or even cause cave-ins.  The body, now completely rigid and extremely heavy, is taken to the lowest levels of the excavations for disposal.   In volcanic regions it is preferred to utilize a magma pit, but in other areas a bottomless crevasse or non-connected cave pool is used.  

Once the body has petrified and the life-force departed, most Thergerim believe that the ‘forgespark’ (soul, spirit, essence, or whatever name you care to call the mind and heart that animates a sentient being…) returns to meet its Creator – the great Trum-Baroll – and will dwell in his realm, the underground utopian empire known as Toll Disporbaroll.  We say most, as this is the common belief; some of the older members of the more traditional clans will inform you fiercely that the body itself returns to be animated by the forgespark again, so that the deceased dwarf may have a corporeal existence in Toll Disporbaroll.  Arcane dwarvish writings (not an accepted part of the RockTales, but rather apocryphal) claim that there are in Toll Disporbaroll itself layers within layers, depths within depths, and the purified essence, with or without its body, will move ever deeper, to ever more fulfillment and joy.  

An intimate look at a dwarven funeral may be had here, in the story of Mututaph Foodmaker. . .

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Note:  Apparently this story hasn't been placed in the Compendium either, so I've now posted it to the Library Forum, if anyone is interested...)



Title: Re: Trolls: Brainstorming
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 18 September 2005, 09:24:00
I can't remember that you posted this before, for I would have surely taken notice of it, being interested in such things (I love to visit graveyards where ever I go out of job-related interest, my family knows by now, that we have to visit those "Last Reposes" every holidays).

I don't mind , what you are doing with the trolls, but if it happens once with a race of mammals (what is very unlikely), why shouldn't it happen elsewhere as well? Regarding the constitution of the  trolls (skin, not much sense for cold)I would say, it is more likely to happen to them. Didn't you say, it is just a calcification of the joints?
It could  happen in a different way with the trolls (not calcium).
Well, it is not my business, and I don't care, what you decide.

Maybe the dwarves have something in common with the trolls? :p  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"



Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Alysse the Likely on 19 September 2005, 11:02:00
Sorry, been off for a bit.

To answer your question, Erian, what I meant was, that in a wolf pack only the alpha male and female are allowed to mate and produce pups and I didn't think trolls should or would restrict their breeding in that way.  In other words, trolls could, like wolves, mate for life, but there can be more than one mated pair to a troll tribe.

Anyway, re: the stone thing.  Here's a suggestion.  Maybe their bodies just slowly turn to stone when they die (as opposed to decaying like most bodies) and light and warmth speeds up this process (but only after they are dead).  So then a dying or dead troll will be taken to a sunny, open area (see, we could have simple funeral customs here) so that his/her body will calcify properly. Thus people would later see stone troll bodies in open clearings and make the (incorrect) assumption that sunlight turns trolls to stone.

What do you think?

Alysse the Likely



Title: Re: Long brainstorm ahead: periods of heavy rain, some driz
Post by: Bard Judith on 19 September 2005, 11:46:00
Hey now... (cogitates, begins nodding slowly) :nod    Yesssss, that could work.   That could work!

 Trolls turning to stone is so much a part of the mythos that it has to be incorporated somehow.  Yet  the dwarven 'Time of Stone' needs to remain unique and to reinforce the way in which they were conceived years ago.   'Sunlight and trolls don't mix' - but trolls are depicted in daylight illustrations and live in areas where they cannot be completely protected from Injera's rays.    Trolls are primitive - yet trolls have family bonds and simple religious rites.

Alysse's suggestion allows us to incorporate all of those concepts.   It gives a reason for the human stories, it leaves room for trollish beliefs and legends, and it means that trolls can indeed move freely during daylight hours, not restricting them as a nocturnal race.

Yes, Erian,  this could solve some problems right here.  Whaddya think?



Title: A shaft of sunlight breaks through the dark clouds
Post by: Erian Melor on 20 September 2005, 08:34:00
Awesome!:D   Having trolls turn to stone when they die would make the burial rites unique, which was exactly what I wanted. The trolls would believe that they have returned to the earth to live forever with the spirits of their ancestors. Instead of evil spirits being those that were not buried, they would be those that did not have burial rites performed at their death. By the way, the trolls would believe that anyone banished from the band would become an evil spirit when they died. I already have two ways mentioned in my revision for a troll to be banished: dishonorable combat and a shaman being born at the wrong time. Those that have been banished would not have other trolls around when they died and would not receive the burial rites, so them becoming evil spirits fits with trullish beliefs.

Which section would the burial rites belong in? It seems like they would fit in Family, Society & Culture as well as Beliefs.

I'm considering removing the War Tribe as I cannot find enough animal life in the Wastes of Despair to sustain trolls. The entry on Northern Sarvonia states that trolls are believed to live in the wastes, so I do not think it is necessary for such a rumor to be true. War Trolls are only mentioned in the original entry, and I have enough tribes with the Ice Tribe added to the list.

The revision has been updated with two new sections, more to come in the near future!  


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

Edited by: Erian Melor at: 9/19/05 16:35


Title: Re: A shaft of sunlight breaks through the dark clouds
Post by: ishmaelion on 20 September 2005, 10:38:00
Hi all, are those words I created okay? 'cause I'm very much in the Trollish-tongue at the moment (complaints from classmates for grunting and growling every day) I would like to develop it even further, but don't know if that's okay...:biggrin  

Ishmaelion



Title: Re: A shaft of sunlight breaks through the dark clouds
Post by: Bard Judith on 20 September 2005, 18:29:00
Maelion, they are awesome!  Can I ask you to copy EVERY single Trullish word in this thread, if they aren't already in your list, and move the whole vocabulary table over into the Language Forum?  Title it "Trullish: New Troll Words Here" or something like that, and then let's keep adding vocab there instead of in this thread.

Thank you muchly, and add whatever you think might be realistic for us humans to know of the troll tongue (don't overwork it!)



Title: Re: A shaft of sunlight breaks through the dark clouds
Post by: Erian Melor on 21 September 2005, 09:14:00
In the entry on Hobbits, for origins it quotes a passage from the Cárpa'dosía. Would I be allowed to do the same thing for the trolls, with me being the one that writes the passage? Of course, trolls would not believe it, but it would be how elves believe the trolls were created.

I am currently working on the origins of the trolls, so the entry should be finished soon!:biggrin

Who could I say translated the trullish myth? It would be too descriptive to be a direct translation.

Just so everyone knows, the Stone Tribe will probably be my next entry. There is more references to them on the site than any other tribe.

Would the list of trullish words be included in the entry, similar to the entry on the Ulvur? There wouldn't be enough words to create a trullish dictionary, in my humble opinion.  


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: Re: A shaft of sunlight breaks through the dark clouds
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 21 September 2005, 12:03:00
Well, yes, there is a quote from the Cárpa'dosía in the Hobbit entry, but as you can read there, the elves weren't really concerned about halflings, so the name of the race isn't even mentioned in the myth. Same very likely with the trolls, who could have been interpreted as fire-related by-products (fire/earth), but that's probably all you find about trolls in the Cárpa'dosía. So you can mention that if you want.

However. this doesn't really substitute a creation myth or tell us what the trolls think themselves from where they came and why. So this would need to be a seperate myth, similar as Rayne did it in her Haflings entry.

Basic vocabulary can be put into the main entry for now, yup -if we reach a certain quantity, it can move officially to the Languages section.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 9/20/05 20:04


Title: Re: A shaft of sunlight breaks through the dark clouds
Post by: Erian Melor on 21 September 2005, 12:16:00
I know, I know. I did not intend to use it as a substitute, merely as the elves' view on trolls. Trolls would have their own creation myth that would not be related to the Cárpa'dosía. I'm not looking for a shortcut, I just want the entry to say everything it should about trolls.


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: Re: A shaft of sunlight breaks through the dark clouds
Post by: Erian Melor on 22 September 2005, 14:33:00
Yay! The revision is finished! Now, for the comments that will force me to rewrite the whole thing.;)

I'd especially like comments on the myth, as it is somewhat ambiguous.


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.



Title: Re: A shaft of sunlight breaks through the dark clouds
Post by: Marvin Cerambit on 25 September 2005, 12:15:00
Quote:
Trolls have even been known to roast their victims alive, laughing as the unfortunate human screams for mercy.

I was wondering why they would do this. They just consider them food, so why would they torture it? And why don't they torture other kinds of food?

Quote:
GHEREGHUT (Cave Tribe): Cave Trolls live in caves, hence the name, within the Tandala Highlands. They often make their homes by enlarging natural caverns with their great strength and sharp claws, the claws of Cave Trolls are believed to be able to cut through stone with ease. Such caves are often rough and lack any decoration, as Trolls are not known for their delving skills. They trade with the goblins that live to the north, trading hides for the superior weaponry crafted by goblins. Such trade has allowed them to become more sophisticated than the other tribes, and a few have even learned to speak Tharian.

I would say they learn Kh'omchr'om (orcish) instead of Tharian.