Santharian Development

Santharian World Development => The Santharian Bestiary => Topic started by: Koldar Mondrakken on 17 March 2002, 14:08:00



Title: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 17 March 2002, 14:08:00
The list is already getting very long there and it is difficult to put the name somewhere. Maybe it would be a good idea to order the beasts after general categories and not only alphabetically?

Suggestion would be:

Demons: -...
Dragons: -...
Predators(Carnivores): -...
Ride animals(horses, donkeys, ...): -...
Cattle(Sheep,...): -...
Birds: -...
Maritime: -...
semi-sentient species: -...
Other: -...
...

Something this way? Good? Bad?

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster ;)--

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 3/16/02 8:18:13 pm


Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Uragel on 18 March 2002, 02:34:00
Using a sheepish voice It's a lot simpler to sub divide it.. I've recently re-designed the klintorth.com site with sub menus... (link down the bottom if your interested to take a peek) it's much easier to locate what your after, esp if your after a particular type of "thing"

The entire site can be sub devided.. - plants and such...  

 ~ Uragel! ~  
 ~ Character Description | World   of Klintorth
~ Little Miss Moderating Mistress & All Round "Little Helper"~~  
Dont let it end like this...... Tell them I said something!!!



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 18 March 2002, 05:32:00
A good idea for the herbarium as well maybe not exactly the way you subdivided it, but ingeneral yes.

*goes and tries hard to find cathegories ;)  *

***Astropic of the day***



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: jamalian on 18 March 2002, 07:01:00
Thats a good idea!
I was looking for a beast/demon in the bestiary for an NPC in my quest. I had to look through everything to find the on ei wanted.
If it was divided, i could just lokk under demons or something.



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Bard Judith on 18 March 2002, 11:55:00
Oh yes, I've been dropping hints about that for a while.  
Would be much simpler to find needed things...and I'd love to see the Herbarium with its own section.

However, do let's consider that the 'division'
is a vast amount of physical work that needs to be done on the site, by our dear overloaded Artimidor.  Perhaps if someone else went through and set up categories.....then made a list of what things on site should go in each category.....then made a rule that all new submissions need to have a little note attached (say in the title of the email) as to where they belong and posted it..... that might help....

I could easily do that for the plants....except for the vast amount of unfinished stuff on my plate already....and the fact that I've come down sick and won't be doing anything for the next week if I can help it./....

Anyhow, that's my two san's worth.  See what Art thinks.



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 18 March 2002, 13:53:00
When we can base the new Menu-structure on the races structure (main category, sub category, sub-sub and link) I might work on it... but I'm nnot sure if Art wants anyone mess around in his side structure. :)  

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster ;)--



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 19 March 2002, 14:52:00
The treeview structure idea is nothing new. I've posted my intention to use such a treeview already at least two times and also tried to find an appropriate script, but currently found nothing which pleases me. The script Uragel uses has some problems/things I don't like:

1.) Intendation of opened nodes (changable?)
2.) Horizontal scrollbars for no apparent reason (could be that this is not directly related to the script, but I guess so)
3.) Don't know if there's a possibility to close the node simply by clicking on the header caption again.
4.) Can only expand one node.
5.) "Digital nirvana phenomenon" with closing nodes when there are several subentries, which expand the treeview over the page height and closing the node again (see e.g. your Religion menu: Open "Quoni", scroll down and click on "Rinwin").
6.) The opening process gets a bit confusing if there are more sub-entries and another node is open.
7.) There are some scripts/Java-classes which are better, but not really usable for us as far as I could see due to several reasons.

Will try to find a good solution, so you can already think on the design of the menu structure.

Nice menu BTW, Uragel;)  


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Uragel on 19 March 2002, 17:51:00
Thanks.. <beams a smile>

The reason for the Religion area is because the script knows that there is more text "behind" there, and so "picks" up on it and then creates the scroll bars. We haven't quite figured out how to "hide" them from view as yet.

I'm a little lost with your other things, but I'll try to figure them out. A little new with the while "html" thing still, but learning more and more! :)  Any and all help is welcomed...

So getting back to the general "sub-areas" of the beast / herb areas (as my site was just an example of it being easier to find the different "sub species" ie, I want to find out about an animal, which is a demon You wouldn't have to scroll through the entire listing, and explore each one which "looked" like it might be, you'd only have to scroll down to the demons and the read through each of them.

 ~ Uragel! ~  
 ~ Character Description | World   of Klintorth
~ Little Miss Moderating Mistress & All Round "Little Helper"~~  
Dont let it end like this...... Tell them I said something!!!



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 19 March 2002, 18:34:00
Can't you force scrollbars to stay invisible? Just a wide guss without having looked into details...


I should have known that Arti is smarter than me and already works on it. I'll think about a general splitup.
My goals would be general categories ordered after purpose or special feature, simple without any biology thingies. Good for people like me and rpg players (hope that takes none as offense!!!) ;)  

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster ;)--



Title: Uh
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 20 March 2002, 09:06:00
I have no objection to this as long as I still get to moderate the whole beastiary.



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 20 March 2002, 13:29:00
Errr... Tarquet, you don't have to worry about your job(we are stupid!) ;)

This suggestion applies to the bestiary menu not the forums!

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster ;)--



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Drogo on 20 March 2002, 15:26:00
Just had to throw in my tiny, little, two cents comment.  I like the idea Koldar!  Perhaps something like this? Except Alphabetically of course

Beasts
Mythical (ie griffon, unicorn etc.)
Dragon (mostly since there's so much info on them)
Cosmological(demons, religion specific creature, silfin etc.)
Domesticated Animals
Sea Animals
Insects
Other animals (everything else)

Herbarium
Trees
Bushes
Crop Bearing
Tubers (potatoes, reeds, etc)
Moss/Fungi

Not really to sure about the Herbarium section, would think one of the Mistresses could give a better idea.  But, just a thought.

Drogo Lord of the North and Places Supervisor May Helvet bring courage to your blade, and Teimor grant death to your enemies



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 20 March 2002, 16:39:00
Ah, menu, alright. Uhhh, then I like Drogo's idea. Yea.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 20 March 2002, 18:09:00
I like your list, Drogo, maybe you should add birds?

But I like the semi-sentient animals Koldar mentioned as well.

What if an animal belongs to two categories? a link to where it is described could be the solution, it doesn't matter then that it is mentioned in two categories.
And what about sub-categories like: domesticated split up in riding animals and cattle?

***Astropic of the day***



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Uragel on 20 March 2002, 18:59:00
Herbarium
Trees
- ever green
- deciduous
Bushes
Crop Bearing/Tubers
- fruit
- vegetable
Floral/Flowers
Moss/Fungi
Weeds
Vines/Creepers
Misc/Other

 ~ Uragel! ~  
 ~ Character Description | World   of Klintorth
~ Little Miss Moderating Mistress & All Round "Little Helper"~~  
Dont let it end like this...... Tell them I said something!!!



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Bard Judith on 20 March 2002, 21:25:00
Cool - but instead of Crop-Bearing/Tubers
I'd do

Edible Plants
- cultivated
   - grains
   - tubers
   - fruits
   - vegetables
   - misc.  (like the mushrooms, say, or doch nuts)

Medicinal Plants
- healing
- poisonous

A little easier, and we can see which areas are weak....



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Uragel on 20 March 2002, 21:35:00
Herbarium
Trees
- ever green
- deciduous
Bushes
Floral/Flowers
Moss/Fungi
Weeds
Vines/Creepers
Edible Plants
- cultivated
- grains
- tubers
- fruits
- vegetables
- misc. (like the mushrooms, say, or doch nuts)
Medicinal Plants
- healing
- poisonous
Misc/Other

??

 ~ Uragel! ~  
 ~ Character Description | World   of Klintorth
~ Little Miss Moderating Mistress & All Round "Little Helper"~~  
Dont let it end like this...... Tell them I said something!!!



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 21 March 2002, 03:01:00
Only addition I can think of would be to merge mythical and cosmology section. Eventually demons then seperate as I don't know how religious they're...

Change "insects" to "birds and insects" or just avian animals, I do not know , do we have so many insects, I don't think so so I would put them to "Others".

well, semi-sentinent, I have to admit I thought about it in respect to what might happen to Goblins but I think there are some other races like this as well.

Beasts
Demons
Dragon (mostly since there's so much info on them)
Cosmological(mythical beasts, religion specific creature, silfin etc.)
Domesticated Animals
Sea Animals
Birds or Avian Animals
Other animals (everything else)

I don't know but I wouldn't subdivide too much or we end up with two or three entries each. Also crosslinking might IMO confuse people as some animals would be then mentioned at various places. I would put them to their primary "use".

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster ;)--



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 21 March 2002, 14:10:00
Beasts
Dragon (mostly since there's so much info on them)
Cosmological(Demons , mythical beasts, religion specific creature, silfin etc.)
Domesticated Animals
Sea Animals
Birds or Avian Animals
Semi-sentient races(Goblins, Trolls, Gorbas,...)
Other animals (everything else)

Some finetweaking. A semi-sentient races section would be interesting for creatures like Goblins, Gorbas, Trolls,... These are all races which don't develop a real science, culture and such and might be seen more as the normal RPG-monster to encounter in the woods or what do you think?

This would concentrate the races section on those that actually have history and such!

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster ;)--



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 02 April 2002, 13:26:00
I've checked a very powerful treeview menu during the week, found many advantages, but also several disadvanages. Don't know if it is possible to fix any of the disadvantages, but I'll investigate a bit more in this matter. Currently unfortunately the disadvantages still prevail.


The Santharian Dream Webmaster - Let Fantasy Dreams come true!
World Development Admin - The Forum where Worlds are born...



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Greybark on 04 April 2002, 03:27:00
I like what everyone has come up with so far, but suggest that we put the categories into a logical order. Perhaps begin with the most useful, and progress to the seldom-encountered and mythological. I like the categories and the names for them, but their order seems a bit random to me.


Brownie Expert



Title: Re: Uh
Post by: Viresse on 04 April 2002, 12:24:00
*nods* Yeah, Useful-to-useless. That way, people looking for creatures ( in RP) find the most used ( and useful) ones at the top. Perhaps this will deter them from using the rarer creatures in their stories.

Viresse Sheelala
~contact~character~



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Sammykins on 11 April 2002, 13:46:00
Demons: -...
Dragons: -...
Predators(Carnivores): -...
Ride animals(horses, donkeys, ...): -...
Cattle(Sheep,...): -...
Birds: -...
Maritime: -...
semi-sentient species: -...
Other: -...

All That Would be a good way to do it, another suggestion.. To even Further the SubDividing Is come up with a classification like there is IRL

Mammal, Invertabrate, bird, Reptile, amphibian and So on.

That May help Also if you want to Further the seperations. ~shrugs~


No Longer will All Animals Be NPC Chars!
I will Play Animals Till The END!

I took the What Mythological Creature Are you? test by !



Go Faeries!!
Take the What Faery Are You? Quiz!
This quiz was made by lia



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 April 2002, 15:20:00
May I politely beg you to reduce signatures to approx. 3-4 lines and no large pics, Sammy? Thanx for understanding.


Contact Artimidor - Webmaster & World Development Admin
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 4/10/02 10:21:16 pm


Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 10 May 2002, 13:37:00
As I'm now going to move demons to where they belong (Cosmology/Myth section to the mythological beasts) I will also realize the subdividing of the bestiary now. Not with a treeview menu (for now, and unlikely to be realized in satisfactory form soon), but the subdividing is necessary anyway. As a start I propose to subdivide the herbarium first as the main menus seem to be pretty clear (see Uragel's and Judith's proposals).

So may I beg one of our Herbarium managers to take a look at the Herbarium Overview and allocate it to the following system (ordered alphabetically):

Bushes
Edible Plants
- cultivated
- grains
- tubers
- fruits
- vegetables
- misc. (like the mushrooms, say, or doch nuts)
Floral/Flowers
Medicinal Plants
- healing
- poisonous
Moss/Fungi
Trees
- ever green
- deciduous
Vines/Creepers
Weeds
---
Misc/Other

I hope this system is ok with you all now, so I'd be thankful if you could set up a list of plants, trees, flowers allocated to the sections. The Overview will also be split then. If you click e.g. on the caption "Trees" you'll see a trees overview etc. Thanx in advance!

After we have the Herbarium we'll do the Bestiary as well. Later on we may eventually think on how to improve the appearance of the menu, but this is not the most important currently.


Contact Artimidor - Webmaster & World Development Admin
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Bard Judith on 10 May 2002, 16:35:00
Art:  Would be happy to do that this weekend (possibly this evening, as it's now Friday morning for me).

Expect a subdivision soon (by the way, I'd put mushrooms under Fungi, and Doch Nuts under Fruits & Vegetables....but there will always be room for dissent in any classification system!)





.

Regards from the Bard


 “The three principal endeavors of a Bard are to learn and collect knowledge; to teach others; to make peace and put an end to all injury. To do contrary to these things is not usual or becoming to a Bard.”  
The Triads of Britain, medieval text



Title: Re: Subdividing bestiary?
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 11 May 2002, 11:11:00
Okeydokey. Would be great:)  


Contact Artimidor - Webmaster & World Development Admin
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true



Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: jdlws on 28 May 2002, 14:48:00
Of particular aid (especially for the curious and less informed) would be a list categorized by environment.  Then subcategorized by function.

ARCTIC
sub             mammalian
sub/sub            vegetarian/prey
sub/sub            predator


sub             avian
sub/sub            vegetarian/prey
sub/sub            predator


sub             fish (waterborne)
sub/sub            vegetarian/prey
sub/sub            predator

WOODLANDS - TEMPERATE


sub             mammalian
sub/sub            vegetarian/prey
sub/sub            predator


sub             avian
sub/sub            vegetarian/prey
sub/sub            predator


sub             fish (waterborne)
sub/sub            vegetarian/prey
sub/sub            predator

and so forth through categories such as light woods, mountains, alpine mountains, swamp equatorial, swamp frigid, desert, scrub desert, salt water oceans, etc. etc.

This would allow those of us less knowledgeable to study the bestiary in organized groups rather than to be forced to bring up EVERY entry on a long list (which soon will cover most creatures) to find out what lives in an area and where they lie in the food chain.

Finding that there are so far no predators in the icelands and tundra thus far, was time consuming and draining --- but interesting.

Also more detailed maps color coded to mach the chosen category list would allow quick and easy research on what is in the general area of the town you decide to be in at any given time.  As well as a hint of the difficulties to be encountered in travel to some other distant destination.  

Plants should then be sorted similarly.

Individual entries can then limit that creatures range to certain geographical areas with the given terrain type.  Some may need to be linked to more than one terrain.

If I'm in deep woods it would be nice to know what might be encountered and those (not being listed) which I need not fear meeting.

Question??????
May we assume that most earth animals would exist in their natural habitats as well.   ie- Are there polar bears on the ice shelves fishing for seals?

Reality is irrelevant
Perception is all



Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 28 May 2002, 19:05:00
Problem is: The Beastiary isn't about environments. Yes, each beast has an evnironment, but some are common and found many places. Having it divided by the animal is much simpler than dividing into environments then animals.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries



Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: Raoneth on 29 May 2002, 11:05:00
Hi, all. Bothersome RP'er here to bug you again...

Actually I think it would be a good idea to divide the list by the areas the creatures live in, (I know there'll be a lot of overlapping. But, hell.) This would make it easier for people to use creatures in their stories et.c. as they'd just look up the area the story/char./whatever is in and see all thats there.
It would also work as a great source of inspiration.
(ooh, those creatures live here? lets see, what can I do to put them in my story...)
I have a point?

Memeto viti.



Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: jdlws on 29 May 2002, 16:29:00
True, dividing it by the animal would be simpler (but since I don't have to do the work is irrelevant) however, please look at the work through the eyes of those whom are not yet familiar with all the names.

Picture a list of the animals on earth alphabetized by their Greek or Latin scientific names, and then contemplate how you would find out what is native to the present environment.

Present usage it seems is to use whatever earth animal might fit the present need be it prey for lunch, or viscous beast to survive, rather than take full advantage of a colorful and much more fantastic bestiary.

I have read through all of the present entries and remember a few that will come in quite useful someday, however I can not remember them individually by name so will either use something else or be force to go through the entire list again to find the one I seek.

The first division should be geographical (state sized) and then by environment, for when in a desert all I am interested in are the inhabitants of this particular desert.  Both the prey and the predators.  Dividing by animal means I still have to go through all of the divisions to acquire a mental picture of my location.

Reality is irrelevant
Perception is all



Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: Tarquet Galbar on 30 May 2002, 13:48:00
Right now it's divided by types of animal. At least that's the plan.

Look, not to sound rude, but Art is very overworked, and this problem has already been solved. We don't need to make things more complicated for people, especially Art. It's fine the way it is.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 5/29/02 8:51:42 pm


Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: Koldar Mondrakken on 30 May 2002, 13:58:00
I'm all for a little bit more "torture Artie" but I gues you're right, Tarq.

Be happy that it will be at least organized "somehow", the other suggestion is something that needs even more foreplanning before realization than the planned one...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster ;)--



Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: Avis on 01 June 2002, 03:11:00
I think that it really would be good to get the animals and plants divided by area as well as type and I think I have a way of doing it that will cause very little work for anyone.

At the moment I see that people are adding entries on areas of Santharia i.e. the Narfost plains and Mithral mountains. In the Narfost plains entry there are written paragraphs on plants and animals so if someone just made a table to put at the bottom of this with a list of all the plants and animals found there divided into categories like predators etc. then it will allow some one in the narfost plains to click on it and see all the animals they can meet their shown to them in a simple table.

When more entries on different regions are completed we should gradually get a complete list and under bestiary you could have "Animals of the Narfost plains" and a link to the table.

Sound good?



Title: ...
Post by: Raoneth on 01 June 2002, 09:23:00
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: Raoneth  at: 5/31/02 4:25:20 pm


Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: Raoneth on 01 June 2002, 09:24:00
*tosses Art some coffein-pills*
Seems like you might need it...

:hat

poor Art...



Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 01 June 2002, 11:10:00
I guess accumulated links at Places entries to the used beasts are a good idea, but not all those beasts are described yet. So setting up such a link section isn't likely to happen soon. At Bestiary entries we also thought about world maps where you can see the locations you can find the beasts, but we need a complete world map for this.

The Bestiary itself should be categorized by beast types, not locations (unfortunately I don't have time for doing a final categorizing right now). This is because a beast can be found in lots of locations and we will have hundreds of locations sooner or later, so that's just not possible.


Contact Artimidor - Webmaster & World Development Admin
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true



Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels on 01 June 2002, 15:29:00
Art, for you nothing is impossible!

And I liked the idea of idlws, I had a similar,not so thought through when I was thinking about what kind of  Plants/animals could life in a certain habitat. When describing a place it doesn't help me to have categories of bushes7trees/edible plants..and so on, I have to know which ones are growing in the desert. Otherwise i have to look through all entries like now to find the ones which suit me.


So my idea was  just to leave them in alphabetical order but to set different categories in the overview. The same overview of a plant would be in each category to which it belongs. So a tree in the desert with edible fruits could be found under the category desert, tree and edible plant. In the categories you find only the overview with a link to the full description, if there is one

Too much work?.

***Astropic of the day***



Title: Re: Catagories
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 04 June 2002, 12:14:00
Hmmm... All not so easy. We could also try to do three (?)differently sorted menu pages and you can switch between those three by clicking a link on top of the menu: one categorization, one territoral (desert plants, swamp plants etc.) and one simple alphabetical. You can then simply select the menu you need. Perhaps I could store the last state of the menu in a cookie, so when you click on the Bestiary and return to the Herbarium you'll see the territoral menu instead of the categorization if you have viewed this one at last. Does that sound like a good idea?

If we want to have such a territoral menu we'd need proposals on what territories we'd need as well.

And: Do you think it's ok to put plants in 2 categories e.g. Edible/Cultivated and Medicinal Herbs etc.? If so, which ones should be placed where? But it looks like that we have to do that to make it all work fine.

Ah, yup, I knew it... A good categorization scheme isn't that easy to realize... :lol  


Contact Artimidor - Webmaster & World Development Admin
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/3/02 7:18:49 pm


Title: If I may make some suggestions?
Post by: Wilen Cloverheart on 02 July 2002, 14:32:00
This isn't as much for what exact entries to put where, more on the general way to organize things.

Tree menu

With a few entries being added to every menu every week, the menus are soon going to be even harder to figure out than they are now. There're already more than 100 entries just on the Bestiary menu, and many do not have a heading to give a clue about what they are.

Simple solution: use a tree menu. There's plenty of free little scripts floating around out there, and I'm sure somebody here on the boards can make a customized one. With two or three levels, it could cut down the menu length to a single screen, and it wouldn't really have to grow, can just move the categories around so they still fit on a page.

Example. There's current 14 dragon entries. In the tree menu, "Dragons" would be the first level. With many more dragons to come, the next level could be "Named Dragons", "Chromatic Dragons", and "Drakes". I actually find "Named Dragons" confusing, seems like individual dragons worth noting, maybe they could get a different name and "Named Dragons" could contain entries on noteworthy dragons currently mentioned elsewhere. So 3 or 4 entries on the second level. The third level would contain the actual detail entries on individual dragons/drakes. The actual headings could both expand the menu and open a general description for all it contains.

Search function

It's hard to figure out what entries currently hold info related to a project you're working on. Add a search entry / complete list page where you can order everything through a few categories like "Alpha", "Rarity", "Location", "Size", "Date added", etc. Either click headings to resort the complete list, or use a search function to only list the few entries you're looking for, like "Dragon", or "Any creature from the Sarvonia continent"

I don't know if all the current entries are ever stored in a database, but it would seem to make sense to stick it in a database with lotsa interesting fields to make queries with. That'll make it easier to transfer into a MUD and all sorts of other things as well. Obviously, this system could be used for a lot more than just the bestiary. I personally like messing with databases, I wouldn't mind categorizing a bunch of stuff though I'm sure it would take a while.


Thoughts? I'm sure there's enough people with the skills to help out with something like this.



Title: Re: If I may make some suggestions?
Post by: Wilen Cloverheart on 03 July 2002, 10:44:00
Anybody?

Also, forgot to mention something, under search, a standard keyword search would also be useful, for tracking down all entries referring to a single creature / tribe / location. It's crazy at the moment to try and track down everything that might have an impact on, say, the Horned Drake I'm about done with. It'll clash with lots of stuff I'm sure, but that's why it'll need a few days' worth of comments I guess :)  



Title: Re: If I may make some suggestions?
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 03 July 2002, 15:13:00
First of all: Your pic is not working (at least not now). Mail it to me and I'll put it on the Santharian server and there should be no problems.

Treewview: It's not that I haven't tried integrating it, Wilen, here's a proof:



And though it has major advantages (especially this script, which is excellent!) it has even more disadvantages. Guess I mentioned this already somewhere else.

Main thing is: The whole page layout is not designed to support the menu. A treeview menu makes sense if you can resize the menu. Not possible here. We even reduce space available for the treeview items because we have a scroll (the java script also doesn't display currectly on startup within a table cell, God knows why).

3 levels? Completely impossible. Even two levels cause a serious problem if you have two longer words and one of the words is suddenly jumping in the next line or goes over the end of the scroll into nothingness. I also know that some users change the text size option to "larger" to see the tiny menu items better - with a treeview menu? Looks horrible.

I would need to change the whole mainframe layout and would especially need to get rid of the scroll to make it work. But to make a resizeable menu is completely out of question.

The only realistic possibility to realize such a treeview thingy is to make a pseudo-treeview as far as I can judge it with various similar pages or something. But I currently see no chance to realize it.

Also don't know exactly what you mean with "Under Search" etc., but there's a search feature at the website menu. Do you refer to that or what do you mean exactly? (Guess we could put this search link at all menus perhaps?) The whole site currently is not an SQL application, all is done manually for various reasons. First of all CSS stylesheets would need to be standardized and made completely Netscape compatible before a database conversion makes sense, entry schemes would need to be final, easy Frontpage work wouldn't be possible anymore as I'd depend on the database, I'd need to change website hosting (Freespeech doesn't support PHP, SQLServer or whatever) and the whole reorganisation of the site would last at least 3 months and all Santharian updates would need to be stopped. As long as I have no clear concept and at least 10 people capable of helping me with a conversion I don't really see the advantage.


Contact Artimidor - Webmaster & World Development Admin
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true



Title: Re: If I may make some suggestions?
Post by: Wilen Cloverheart on 03 July 2002, 18:06:00
I didn't realize that I walked into such a minefield of technical difficulties, sorry for any trouble :)

I haven't seen my pict fail so far, but I guess it might just be cached on my computer. There does seem to be a problem with my webhost :(    I can't seem to get to the image at the moment, but if it's still not working in a day or two I'll see if I can retrieve it and email it, thanks for the offer.

As for the treeview, that example looks perfect! And it kinda does have 3 levels, if the main header can be repeated (which should be possible, if nothing else have more than one copy of the script). 3 levels aren't required though.

I'm not sure I understand the size problem. If the whole thing was done as in your example, there shouldn't be any trouble with too long entries, can shorten any that may cause trouble. Setting the text size for me only enlarges the "The Website" heading, rest of the menu doesn't change size. I'm sure there's a way to force the text size to never change as well (seems to work that way already)

If it doesn't work, then, well, it doesn't work :)    I wasn't aware that it had been tried already (maybe I should just assume that most the things I can think up have been tried already, heh). I'm just saying there should be a way to do it, and there's a bunch of newcomers craving jobs they can do for the site, doing some research on this might be a worthy job.

As for search/SQL, then I wasn't suggesting that the whole site be done with SQL, I can imagine that being a very big painful process. I was more interested in seeing a separate overview of all beasties in one database table, all plants in another, with very short entries. Example:

Beasts table
Name
Type (carnivore, herbivore..)
Size (tiny, small, etc.)
Lifespan
Date added
Main habitat type (mountains, grasslands, forest)
Geographical locations
Special abilities
and so on

The main search I was thinking was something limited to this, and maybe more like an order by thing than an actual search or query. The whole thing would be a main page accessible from the bestiary menu, containing a single line for each creature with all the headings mentioned before. An overview of sorts. Clicking the different headings would sort the list, by size, by data added, alphabetically, etc.

A single bestiary worker should be able to pick out known details from existing entries and compile a database table over a week or two. Other sections could get other tables made by other people. Again, things like these could be assigned to any one of the people eager to do stuff ;)

I found the keyword search you mentioned, I must have missed that completely to begin with. It should prove quite useful, thanks :)    If anything, a keyword search limited to section could be even better.

I'm just throwing ideas out there, I'm not saying you should personally work on any of this, I'm sure you're busy enough as is. You've got quite a community here, take advantage of it :)  



Title: Re: If I may make some suggestions?
Post by: Wilen Cloverheart on 03 July 2002, 18:08:00
Oh, and as for the actual hosting of a possible database, can just host the DB off-site (since it is totally separate) and actually have that particular page sit on another server and just pop up in the normal Santharia framework. Noone would ever know...



Title: Re: If I may make some suggestions?
Post by: Artimidor Federkiel on 05 July 2002, 14:54:00
I guess I should try the "easiest" version with the treeview - doing lots of single pages and do a direct #-jump. It guess it can really work and solve my complicated script/scroll problem and if the user doesn't recognize the trick and only sees tree nodes expanding it would be fine enough. Not possible with this methode of course is to open two nodes at ones, but I think this isn't really necessary.

The fonts BTW don't change size anymore because I've applied stylesheets now (not at the Herbarium so far, but at least everywhere else), but the script (see screenshot above) doesn't support stylesheets as far as I know.

So I will try to see how far we can get with this easy solution. Give me some time to check.


Contact Artimidor - Webmaster & World Development Admin
The Santharian Dream - Where fantasy dreams come true



Title: Re: If I may make some suggestions?
Post by: Wilen Cloverheart on 05 July 2002, 21:24:00
Non-script pages would work too, yep. Could be a pain doing them manually though. Think anybody would happen to know of a simple proggie out there that can generate up slightly different HTML files to work as a tree? That could speed up things significantly