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1  Santharian World Development / Miscellaneous / Re: No design, just something about something on: 27 July 2002, 16:10:00
Yeah, in the Avennorian history in the Races menu among The Humans in Southern Sarvonia first on the row, Avennorian.

At the end of the doc.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

2  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: hi on: 06 August 2002, 22:40:00
Hello, welcome to the Santharian Dream. :)

Yes, we are working on the culture right now, so if you want, you can drop by in the "Races and Culture" thread in this forum and take a look at the ideas and comments everyone made in the "Avennorian (Here Capher)" topic. Maybe it'll give you ideas on how to do your village. Maybe you can even give us a hand.

Help is welcome if you are willing to lend some. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

3  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra on: 21 August 2002, 23:31:00
Ok, I think that Chrondra shouldn't have more than 2000 inhabitants in the best part of the year, with a minimum of 1750 in the worst part of the year.

Most lives in old shacks and single room houses of very small stature, the core of the town has been replaced by modern building such as the Baron's Manor and a nice Hotel in front, as well as many other industrial and commercial buildings.

Some buildings have special purpose while others are simple and have no use except look and/or maybe residential.

Since this is an old town of lesser importance, the Erpheronian invasion wouldn't have occupied it for a very long time, and would have simply put a lord and a loyal amount of guards to keep the population under control. So very few people in Chrondra are pure Erpheronians, most are either a mix of Avennorian and neighboring clans or more or less pure inland Avennorians lacking the predominant features of a coastal Avennorian. Even maybe half Avennorian, half Erpheronian.

The exports of the city would be high quality arrows, finely crafted bows,  some surface common metals found east of Chrondra but still in the lands of the Baron, and some crops from neighboring farmlands. Other produced resources are just enough for local use.

Imports would be steel and/or iron, horses (minor import), heavy metals (gold, silver, etc.), gemstones, spices, seashells, whale derived products. Maybe some others but these are the ones that comes up to my mind. :)

After you have aknowledged this, I'll move on to detail the town a lot. :D

That's all for now.

4  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra on: 06 August 2002, 22:36:00
Ok Capher and the worldbuilding dudes, first step is done and is in the Race and cultures thread.

Awaiting your comments and additional info that I might have missed or are simply unknown to me. :D  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

5  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra on: 06 August 2002, 11:25:00
Ok, no prob.

And if Art and the big heads of SD don't agree, well, we'll just move our work inside the SD format anyways, increasing the amount of detail on the Avennorians, so no time woudl be lost.

Ok, I'll put the city aside, and work on the culture first. But you must understand first that this culture we are working on will be the modern Avennorian culture not the primitive or the ancient one like the one in your doc. The one in your doc seems to be of stone age or maybe copper age or something like that, I doubt the rich and powerful live in huts and houses made out of whale bones and seashells. Ok, maybe as decoration, but not made entirely of that, especially since the invasion of the Erpheronians, they would have started to build the Erpheronnian way since they were a superior tribe.

So this culture will be from like three generations in the past to the current, and maybe a little older than that since there wasn't any major events in Avennoria for a couple of hundreds of years.

Other than that, we can work on it easily. I have finished the map of Chrondra, I'll get back to it's description once we have finished the culture of the Avennorians. Be patient. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

6  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra on: 05 August 2002, 10:28:00
OK, LOL :lol

I will try.

Just joking.

Ok, Chander, we got the okie dokie from big boss, we have a little bit of loose and can work a litle bit on the culture but more on the region. So if you can, get a hold of my e-mail, icq, MSN, or whatever you prefer among these and we'll chat a bit about what I was wondering about leaving this forum for info on Chrondra alone. :)

Thank you

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

7  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra on: 04 August 2002, 12:53:00
sorry if the things I said read mean, but it wasn't my intention, the works and ideas are great, I already said that, you know, nothing against anything.

What I mentioned was just a solution and idea to solve the problem, nothing else.

Capher, we can use the Culture builder to build the Avennorians but we would only need to copy/paste the info in the SD format and there is no problem doing that. We use the CB to make the cultures and then we put the info in SD format, no big deal. So it wouldn't change anything in the dream except adding more detail and colour, and i am sure that the creators wouldn't mind that, I know I wouldn't. :)

If you say there wasn,t any other people in Santharia at that time, where did all those other tribes came from??? anyways, I think Koldar answered your question already. :)

and no again, I don't want to change the dream, only to put more detail in it, making it more realistic, pertinent and keep it an out of the ordinary rpg world.

"P.S.S. I did not mention the other part of your questions because the only abnormality the Avennorians had was something that was developed over thousands of years of "Micro-Evolution" Their ears and circulatory systems adapted to the depths that they dove in the ocean, until it became part of their genetic makup" Well, well, I thought genetical changes and evolution wasn't possible in the SD... that is weird no? Well, that's what some people told me in another forum. hehehe

Yayaya, we already agreed that the one ship was a myth, it was just an answer to Capher, Koldar. While 700 year war isn't just possible, well, not like the French-english war, but something less open, like the underground railroad I mentioned, or raids, or privateering, but not open warfare, the place is too small to take on such a big enemy. But the 700 years wars could be a myth too btw, it could be something else than a war also.

And the doc on the Avennorian is like their stone age not modern age. A LOT can happen in a few hundred years, so imagine in a thousand years. Being in huts made out of whale bones and sea stuff is pretty darn primitive, so in the modern day, especially after the Erpheronian invasion, the new leaders would have teached the lesser tribe new technologies and ways to build things, so that in modern age, you would find typical Avennorian buildings only in the old parts of each town and in the old villages that were spared by all the wars the Avennorians went through.

One thing is for sure, you need a real timeline. Mythical timeline are only valid to a single culture, not to all cultures in the world. So if we would see this as a mythical timeline, let's continue the way the history was made, and say that the myths are from the elven cultures. Having a detailed universal timeline in-game would be quite unprobable, we, in the 21st century, we know barely of ancient times before christ and this is with carbon dating and such scientific methods. So having an old timeline would be very improbable, at least, not a very specific ones, especially for the most ancient parts. Only the elves would have the capacities to record history due to their long lifespan.

So we would need to adjust the myths and legends according to each individual culture. I know, it's a lot of work, and lots of time, but my mom always said that if you want to do something, do it right. :D    I am only suggesting what could improve greatly the dream, don't want to modify it in any ways, just increasing the amount of colour and detail in it.

Cultures are the most difficult things to do, there is a lot of details and work to be done, but once you've done one, the others will be easier to do, much like a new software you just purchased. It takes me one day of work to logically build an entire culture, quite long, but what is worse is that it is very hard to do, you need to think alot making things logical and making sense as well as staying creative and interesting to read. Quite harduous, that's why I was happy to know that you weren't creating new races in SD, because for eac new races, there is the possibility of having dozens of different cultures.

The current Avennorians are logically a mix of the people that lived there before them, Erpheronians and the neighboring tribes. So having a really pure Avenorian would be quite rare and only found in the most isolated places in Avennorian province today.

Yes, a small amount of people cannot maintain their culture if a larger and/or more sophisticated culture is present nearby, because their culture will disappear over time and be replaced by the other. Much like what happened in many countries in of our own world. Conquering without armies.

Remember that Avennoria is smaller than the american colonies' lands before independance btw, it's like 200-300 wide by 1000 long at it's biggest in time. Dunno if they are Km or miles, but it looks pretty darn small to me, it wouldn't be able to support lots of people, especially in a medieval setting. there are lots of hills and mountains too, reducing the amount of arable land required for agriculture, having a forest full of elves preventing hunting and clearing makes things even harder. So think about it and you'll see that things like 700 years wars, and huge stuff liek that aren't really possible logically. I estimate by the size of the place that there shouldn't be more than 200,000 to 250,000 of humans and people living with the humans, higher than that would cause famine and overpopulation I think. What do you think the population should be?

Ok, so case closed on everything that happened before the age of myths since it is too far away for humans to record and should be left as stories to scare children. I would put anything before the Erpheronians as myth too because the history is written by the victors, so the Erpheronian timeline would be used throughout the Santharian kingdom except maybe the allies they had during that war. So no Avennorian timeline would be found, maybe in the library of an old magician somewhere that was spared and past down from generation to generation, but certainly not in a library, if they are advanced enough to have a library. lol

Atimidor is right, using specific dates for things that happened more than a certain time ago is wrong and should be vague and approx. But like I say above, if you make such a timeline, only the elves would have such a calendar, and more importantly, only the most civilize elves would have it, no other races or culture since they don't live long enough and some don,t even have the knowledge or technology to do so.

i think I've answered to everybody's questions and replied to everyone... :lol

thanks for replying so soon btw guys. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

8  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra on: 03 August 2002, 18:22:00
Okay, thanks for clearing your point of view for the Avennorians and their history a bit, it's a bit clearer now.

Okay, maybe it did stop by on islands here and there. But the ship that was sent was an exploring ship, not a colonist vessel. So the crew would be (mostly) men alone if the ship was truly an exploration ship. No?

And yes, 25 couples wouldn't last three generations before being absorbed by the local population. Hell! Just check out the Franch Canadian, we were 15000 colonist from the province of québec to the mouth of the mississipi. You know what? We're being assailed from foreigners like Americans, oriental, middle-easters, africans, etc. from all side, that is why we qould like to become independant so that we would not disappear in two hundred years. Do you know what is the second most spoken language outside the province of québec in Canada? no, it's no longer french, it's chineese!!! So your little village of 50 adults wouldn't keep their cultural identities for more than three generations, the time needed for the survivors to die.

Genetically speaking, we, in québec, are the people who have the most heart diseases in whole of america. This is due to the close relations one had in his ancestry. Like distant cousins, and this was in 360 years of existance. I don't think 25 couples' culture would still exist after 1548 years, HELL! I don't even think my people in the real world will exist in 1200 more years because of immigration and foreign pressure, especially if we don't get our independance someday, so imagine the Avennorians.

A solution:

So if you want the Avennorian to exist, you must make the ship an exploring ship, that would come back and bring back strange fruits, vegetables and drawings of vast fertile lands to settle. After that, a steady flow of colonists would be lead to this place, until the fatherland falls, but until then, dozens of thousands of people coming all over their fatherland would have immigrated to the new lands.

As the fatherland fell or whatever happened to them, the colonist were sadened but yet happy to know about this. they were now free from taxes and were now a kingdom on their own.

So let's say that over a few generations after initial colonization to the end of the existence of their faterland, the population would be in the dozens of thousands because of children and constant immigration from their fatherland. But when the fatherland fell, they became more like the ruling class, because of their greater technology and knowledge they had versus the somewhat primitive local population found later in the colonization years.

Finally, a thousand years later, their initial culture would have completely disappeared because of the new needs, new physical resources, kinship rules, etc. to be replaced by a new culture, the Avennorian's modern culture. Their population would be mostly a mix of several different cultures, especially from neighboring lands (Like the USA but in the medieval setting) so that not true ancient Avennorians would remain except in the deepest most isolated villages in Avennoria. This would be before the invasion of the Erpheronians, after that, well, even fewer were left. The avennorians' original look is pretty lost after that thousand years of crossbreeding with locals and immigration from foreign lands to theirs. So now, few would look like the fishmen you describe in your doc, only the coastal communities would have many of them, and those with the original looks of the old Avennorian pre-chosen war, are only found in the most isolated village.

That's one of the solutions that I've thought of, the other wasn't really improving our problem, it's was pretty much like having one boat making an entire kingdom.

So, no, 75 people cannot make tens of thousands of people within just a couple of centuries, not even a thousand years or two. Even if they were isolated from outside influence in the Eden Gardens, they would die out due to genetical problems in the end.

Maybe we could help each other if you want, making the Avennorians more than they are just now. In short, they are colonists, that are sometimes in conflict with the elves, that participated in the war of the chosen, that has no record to what happened in the age of myths, that warred against the slavers for many long years (you didn't comment on that Capher), then waged war on the elves, were conquered by the erperonians by the back door, and now were nothing more than a vassal of the Santharian Kingdom.

If you want to know, the Avennorians would be the first to separate from the kingdom du to their origins. They would want their autonomy once again you know? :)

Like I said earlier, maybe we can make the Avennorians with my culture builder, then copy/paste our new info in the format that the Santharian Dream Team (lol) uses for the cultures. No big deal, but it works so much better with that culture builder, you start from the top then go piece by piece until the end of the doc, not skipping any steps on the way. after that, you have a complete culture.

I know, it's very tough and a bit long, but imagine that I have like over a fifty different "human" cultures in my own world, and I've done this to each of the major cultures that exists. That's not counting all the other "non-human" cultures that I've made. The point is, after you have completed this, building cities, monuments, strongholds, etc, for these people becomes very easy since you know who and what they are, their needs, their values and kinship, superstitions, etc.

So ring if you want to work on the Avennorian, because I really cannot make a town out of the so little information that is available. I don't know how people would do a town from that amount of cultural info, I have no clue, he would need to invent all sorts of things and this might not be along the peth of the initial idea of the creator of those people. That is why I can't create a town or it MIGHT ruin the vision you had of the Avennorians.

So if you can help me out by answering a few questions and maybe increase the amount of information on the Avennorians in the process, I'll gladly return the favor too. :)

I am a box of ideas, never ran out of them. lol

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

9  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra on: 03 August 2002, 11:13:00
Thanks, I'll be waiting for your reply Capher.

Meanwhile, I'll keep focusing on Chrondra and think of new things that might be interesting to put in it or around it.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

10  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra on: 02 August 2002, 19:44:00
see Tarq, you are confused.

You are confusing reality and fantasy and logic.

A game can be fantastic, having thing happen in it that would never happen in reality (or real life if you don't understand) and still be logic.

What you mean is that you don't want the world to be like reality. Because saying that you don't want the world to be logical is drowning yourself deep!

"Tu te calles, mon p'tit gars!", in french we would say, unfortunately, I don't know the equivalent, nothing insulting though, sounds like what I tried to say above. The drowning thing.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

11  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Where I will post info on Chrondra on: 02 August 2002, 17:51:00
To go back to topic and the real subject of this topic.

I've made the map of Chrondra, it should be posted soon in the maps and area topic.

I think there might be a few adjustments to be done, but nothing major. Also, the description of each major buildings and builings of importance should follow the post of the map. :)

Thanks for everyone that has posted ideas and solutions.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

12  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Culture format on: 02 August 2002, 17:48:00

Why do i need to repeat myself.

If you don't have logic and realism then.... why do I even bother! it seems some people don't know the necessicity of logic in world building and the difference between realism and reality. Look at J.R.R tolkien, his world was built on logic, not on randomness and things happening just for fun.

What do I know anyways, just a newbie here, don't know anything about worldbuilding at all. sorry, I just said stupid things here that make no sense. A world based on logic, what was I thinking?!?

We wont have that hydra in the staircase chasing some heroes, some pyranas inside a volcanic pool in an artic region, or those twelve dragons that dies from a single finger of death spell. boy! And I would have missed all of those stupid things! What was I thinking.

BTW, do you know what logic means? Because if you knew, you wouldn't say such absurd things.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/2/02 12:54:34 am
13  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Culture format on: 02 August 2002, 14:59:00

hmm, maybe the underground railroad would be more logical then?

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

14  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Culture format on: 01 August 2002, 17:15:00
Ok, I call the ships Avennorian just to tell who they were, since I want to know stuff about them not their motherland. I know they weren't Avennorians btw.

So you agree that the 700 years war is something not really possible, at least you see it. :D

Okay then, I'll keep in mind the stuff about one ship colonizing an entire kingdom a myth and legend not a fact. As well as some of the stuff following.

And no, I don't mix up the medieval battles and the modern battles. It's just that it's  impossible for such a small place as Avennoria to even think of invading the slaver's country. Because they don't have the manpower, resources and technology to do it. Ok, maybe if they had vastly superior tech, they might win battles with odds of 5-1 against them, but it's not the case.

You say it is difficult to keep an enemy for so long, well, try to keep the economy rolling correctly with a 700 years war, I don't think it's possible. Maybe we should make this as a legend too, but in fact, the 700 year war was more like an underground railroad to free slaves from the Shan Thai (or whatever they are called, lol) Slaver and bring them back home incognito. This would take a very long time indeed, being outnumbered and outgunned, the Avennorians would have used their heads instead of brawn and would have only made small raids in specific locations, but no total war here.
Uh... where was I mean, or not nice Koldar? You got me there. :)  

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

15  Santharian World Development / Places and Map Design / Re: Culture format on: 01 August 2002, 12:28:00
First of all Winlok, I think you are doing the same mistake as many people I know do, you are confused with realism and reality and logic.

The world NEEDS to be logical and realistic, but not REAL. If you do not make the world a logical place, then it will make no sense, you will have no laws or order in the world. Anything could happen for no reason at all, just because a dm just felt that it would be nice to have this happen like that, or another dms kills his entire party because he felt mean and nasty that day.

So you are mixing apples with oranges here! Fantasy is something and logic is something else. Fantasy and reality are part of the same thing, while realism and logic are another gang. The world is Fantastic, okay, but it needs logic, realism and common sense.

The golems push ships because they were made that way, and they are animated by magic and that magic was made by someone. so this is logic and realism. They just don't exist because you want them to be like that, and has no reason of being there except that you want it like that. They have a story, a reason to be, and a reason to continue of being there.

Second, no ship, I repeat, NO SHIP in the renaissance or earlier period of time could navigate for more than a few months without resupplying! Hell, even today I don't think it's possible! food spoils and drinkable water disappears very quickly.

Third, a country will send one ship to explore, not an entire fleet. Yes, an entire fleet of explorers going each their own way, but not together. and an exploring ship could not make and entire kingdom because they would have a little crew with lots of room for food and water lasting for two months at most..

fourth, okay, at least you gave a reason for making the the few thousands of people being there until the current time. Having them as the ruling class is no problem, but only a few thousands is still too few and would have been assimilated by the locals or would have succumbed to interbreeding and genetic diseases such as cancer, heart diseases and malformations, even if they were nobles and rulers. You need many thousands of people to successfully colonise an area and as many to control one through thousands of years. I wouldn,t be here telling you this if it would have happened a century in the past, but it's thousands of years here, no culture in our own world is that old and survived without being destroyed or assimilated.

Fifth, France and Avennoria are very different. France had like a hundred times more people than Avennoria, they had like four to ten times more territory and thus resources, and finally, they are one people unlike avennoria which reunite at least two kind of people, the Avennorian rulers and local commoners. No country that small can make a war last more than a couple of years, ten at most, if they would do more, well, they would die out because all the young men would die at war instead of founding families. And this war wouldn't be constant, just battles here and there each year. This isn't France with a few hundred thousand people here, I'm sure that Avennoria at that time didn't have even near of 100000 people living in it. If it had that many people, a few hundred of years later, they would have reached half a million.

Avennoria is very small, and thus cannot support a large amount of troops, especially compared to the slavers of Shan Thai or whatever, forgot the name. lol  They would have been wiped out by the other stronger opponent unlike France who had an even match with england in the one hundred year war. It wasn't a constant war, but the resources of both country at the end was extremely low, so to make a seven hundred year war, you would need a powerful and rich country like the USA or USSR in a medieval setting to be able to do that, but it wouldn't be possible to have such a country because health care and agriculture isn't at the same level, thus making a war more than several years very unprobable, quasi impossible for 100 years and totally impossible for 700 years!

BTW, the one hundred wars I think was in the renaissance, not in the middleages. It was like 1400 or 1500 or something, forgot. I think gun powder existed.

And finally, I'll do the culture my own way, and then you tell me what goes where in your format. but this is of course if I do the culture, but I really cannot make anything without having the culture built. I really don't know how the person working on marcogg can do a town without a proper culture design. hmmm... Oh, and I wont work on the culture without him or her, and everyone working on the area. After that, I'll just copy-paste the things where you want them to be in your format, no big deal. It's just that I cannot do anything with the info you give, it's too little and general.

Except for these points, I have nothing against the things you say and agree with most of them too.

Thanks for replying. :)

BTW, do you like the format? It's very good, if not excellent.

"The world is big, who knows what is possible and what is hidden in these vast lands."

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