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1  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: Sorry... on: 10 January 2004, 06:33:00
Exactly! Necromancy is an application of a techinique => the technique is not Necromancy.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 1/9/04 13:34
2  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: Sorry... on: 10 January 2004, 06:12:00
We got through this, Rayne:

Necromancy is by the very definition of its word "Magic with the Death"

Look at any terms with "necro" in it like necropolis, etc....

As soon as you use it on unliving matter it doesn't match the description of its name anymore and is not necromancy. The whole moralic dispute is only about necromancy in its very definition of its name: magic with the Dead. Anything else is not necromancy but something else even when it works about the same way. What we now tried to figure out was how and how far people in Ximax would go in that matter and after quite some time I think we agreed that they'd learn the principles for necromancy but learn it for other applications than resurrecting dead bodies.

Fire is about life, life couldn't exist without chaos. In fire lies the urge to live whatever the cost. Do you heard about the scientific discussion about fire being in the old definition of life being a lifeform on it's own? It eats, it breathes, it  reproduces.
I don't know what additional point was introduced by the biologists to discern fire from a living being but it is very close. :)

Only the question how the  fire mage healing spells differ from e.g. wind healing spells, possibly fire mages really can only heal on the exploit of the health of others or something.  


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

3  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: Sorry... on: 09 January 2004, 05:33:00
Yeah, that's about my line of thinking, Dasson. I also think that spells are to some extend variable (small fireball, medium fireball, huge one...) so what a fire mage really does at a certain point is just to mess around with a flame to his liking and can use it for anything her likes then.

In the same sense he should have certain spells he can use useful or kind of "abuse" to do some creepy stuff.

In my opinion this would the whole Necromancy-Demonology thing more shady because there's a light side in using these or such fire spell but also an abnormal one, and what the mage is doing in his cellar would be then more open to speculation than having an offical branch of necromancy ("who would be the first to burn when the revo÷ution comes"... to reword a famous quote from Arthur Clarke) . ;)


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

4  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: Sorry... on: 06 January 2004, 09:08:00
The vast fields of genetic engineering and bio chemstry are the scientific field, cloning is an application of the knowledge aquired from the knowledge of manipulating genes. With the knowledge about the human genom you can do certain things: e.g. find cures to diseases or clone humans. You don't need to study Cloning to know how it works and you never need to use this knowledge to clone but can use it elsewhere, too. That what I meant with, that a fire mage knowing how to activate dead matter does not necessarily use dead corpses as primary usage. All cloned animals were not cloned just for fun but for certain medical purposes, being the least experimenting new medical treatments. The same people that cloned a sheep said about the professor who announced to clone a human within the next years "He's nuts!"

Now when there's necromancy and be it just for research reasons I'd just like to see some kind of useful spells that justify the whole research thing. E.g. a fireball is just about creating a flame so if you create a fireball and hurl it at someone or create fire to ignite your stove in the kitchen is really bound to what you prefer. You have one immorale usage for it but can use it for useful stuff, too.

I don't get your last paragraph, first you say that none would actually use human bones and suddenly the practical applicatrion of necromancy is having undead servants, companions and constructors.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

5  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 22 December 2003, 08:28:00
I think I'm too early with my questions and suggestions. You seem to have enough unclear things among yourselves concerning the magic stuff that it is confusing to try to add just another dimension to it. I also happened to be proven wrong with arguments stated by others as right so things get even worse when I try to explain my point.

We can do that later and it might be better because it concerns to a similar degree any demonology like spells.

My whole line of argumentation is entirely independant from the magic system used. I can use the same questions and arguments in any other fantasy world using the term necromancy so we can clear it up later. It's really not something evil, complicate and that far-fetched, it's just about thinking beyond the system.
As said, up to know I still wait for a fantasy realm where necromancy makes sense at all, I'd like Santharia to do so.


Sidenote: The definition of demons state a certain kind of undead spawned by demonic means aka spirits from the netherworlds using the dead as hulls to exist in the world of Caelereth. Obviously the natural phenomenom of what necromancers try to do.

But I guess for now getting fire magic finished should be top concern. I see no point into pursueing this argumentation beyond christmas.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

6  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 22 December 2003, 05:07:00
healing someone is not necromancy. Necromancy is by the definition of its very name about death and the dead.

That's its very meaning. I already agreed that healing can be a very useful branch of fire magic but only when used to animate skeletons, zombies. etc. it's necromancy.

As for the justification of the whole thing. The morale impact is higher than you all seem to think. Death is sacred in Santharia. The very purpose of Queprur and her temple is all about death. A place in Santharia that dishonours beliefs of the major religion of Santharia will simply face problems.

Also when we drift away from the simple chemistry you name, Rayne, in biochemistry every step you do is highly regulated in various fields. In Germany it is forbidden to work with certain cells extracted fromy embryos, in USA you can end up in jail when you work with dangerous viruses and have not all your paperwork in order. Cloning humans has spawned major resentiments all over the globe. And at universities you'll never learn how to develop napalm and all the other nasty stuff.

Now in Santharia necromancy falls into the same gap. The very definition of necromancy as magic manipulating death and dead as well has its dangerous potential would have major moralic issues as well

Ergo the principles about fire magic used to heal are easily to justify and will be widespread but anything necromantic just being taught to anyone is highly controversial.

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 12/21/03 12:39
7  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 19 December 2003, 22:02:00
Well, as you say that healing is similar to resurrecting so any spell that'd allow healing might've an effect as a spin-off spell in necromancy where it is used for resurrecting the dead e.g.

So when one learns such healing spells he would know the principles of animating the Dead but would he be encouraged to do so? I would just see that this small step from alive to dead beings (maybe outside medical treatment)would be a step from "healing magic" to "necromancy".

With allowing to learn or teach someone something you give him the potential to use his knowledge. A justification why you allow such risks would sound reasonable, why you think it's necessary they learn such things although it can cause so much trouble?


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

8  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 19 December 2003, 11:39:00
However how do you justify the lack of such restrictions to the Santharian people? Thinking about it it is not so much restriction of the system in any way, it's about drawing lines within the system. We can take all your points and still face the same questions when we define Necromancy as we do: What does Ximax do with it, moralic, scientific, practical?

To put it more controverse: How can Ximax justify the support of Necromancing?

Maybe the main reason for our little argument here is that while I can accept Necromancy being fire magic I cannot see that fire mages are generally necromancers(which they're for me when the necromancing spells are just mixed up within the fire spells) while you see necromancing just as part of the system and argue that only necromancers would learn those spells?

I just still see that when you use the term necromancy as a general way of how one uses magic, you could easily draw the line through the whole magic system.

Believe me, I see your points all along but I think it's a little bit more complicate when you think out of the system.

btw: Similar questions arose about the field of Demonology...


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 12/18/03 18:41
9  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 17 December 2003, 17:56:00
You don't see my complaints... never mind. Dasson, I don't intend to clutter ┤this thread anymore.

A last shortworded approach:
The spell isn't your nuclear bomb Silfer, the Zombie is. The spell isn't your nuclear reactor, curing the deadsick is.

You don't see nuclear bombs being constructed at universities just to study them, you probably learn how a nuclear reactor works because it's useful.

(replace the bomb with zombii and reactor with healing and you have what I simply mean)

The simple conclusion fromt his is that certain magics should be considered inapprobiate even among Ximax and thus there should be a reasons and ways how it is dealt with such. My idea was simply to see necromancy as such a kind of magic, thus marked as generally forbidden for lower ranking mages and/or learning without reason and thus would be summed up as a restricted magic discipline just like chemical warfare research is restricted and even punished in our world. Thus I'd find it odd that such spells would appear under fire magic per se. If you want I can propose a definition of it.

But I see that I upset you with my explanations and questions so I'll let go for now. I see now I couldn't explain  my conclusions well, I'll try better next time...

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 12/17/03 14:41
10  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 17 December 2003, 13:48:00
I mainly ask questions because things make me think.

The aspect of fire magic in these regards is transfering lifeforce. When you think about it this means that animating dead people is just playing around with this power in a morbid way. In the same way you could claim that blowing up stuff in a chemistry lab adds new aspects to the world of chemistry?!

What is the application of it? What is the benefit (and may it be intellectual) of a spell called "Raise Skeleton"? What do you gain from it.

What is the moralic position of Ximax to such disputable acts and why and in what form would the academy see it important and beneficial?

When you're talking about firemagic being the magic to make the dead things alive you say you can transfer lifeforce to anything. Instead of bones you can as well animate stones or whatever.

It boils down to the fact that certain principles of fire magic are caged into a stereotype for no apparent reason. You can use that lifeforce thingie in so many ways, the manipulate fire thingies in so many ways, the manipulate emotions in so many ways. Raising skeletons, zombies, ghouls and other beings are just a very narrow niche with extraordinary high social and thus historical impact. Thus it must have a meaning, a gain that justifies that. That it works I don't doubt but why would it be used?


Why I do crackdown on this so much is really I don't see the cause for it in a normal environment, I only see few exceptions where it might make sense without asking for an evil overlord who does such things because he's an evil overlord and does such things.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

11  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 17 December 2003, 11:42:00
Quote:
Fire has no affinity to dead people. However, it can be used to animate them...


Finally back at my first posts...

Is it not possible that when one thinks about using these firespells that influence lifeforce(is that right now or not?) using them on dead people is the most unnecessary form of applying these powers?

I mean, honestly, what does a well-respected Ximaxian mage (except at Halloween) do with a bunch of slimy, stinky moving bodies? Oh I can imagine it useful when exploring new spells concerning that matter in a mage laboratory but what benefit can you have from using that spells outside such artifical situations?
As bodyguards, in combat... That is just one of the things I just don't understand about such spells... where do you get the bodies from? In combat from fallen enemies? Why? You're a firemage you can cast mindnumbling spells on your enemies so they slay each other, no need to go through all the fuss to revive and fix something broken.
From graveyards? Now that will help the reputation of mages.
The mages buy poor children. That would help even more...

There'd be plenty of more question towards this.


I'm of course not looking at this from the point of a magic system or something, I try to look at it from a person's perspective What would the peasants on the streets think, what a priest of Queprur? Why would a mage himself - who is also just a human - even consider using such spells and for what purpose? Wouldn't only ambitious, megalomanic mages with no ethics and morale towards life and death use such spells for their own gain of power and knowledge and thus condemn these spells to one of the black arts, namely: Necromancy?
Would such spells thus be taught at a renown magic academy and if they're, to what extend and for what purpose?

Doctors don't practice their skills at dead bodies because it is much fun but to learn something useful from it.

Thus my question about where to put necromancy and where to put certain spells. In what way they're part of the system can very well affect other things dramatically.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

12  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 16 December 2003, 12:53:00
Intreresting. btw: Took the lifeforce thingie from Dasson's draft in some spell or such. The draft sounds good, but I'm simply puzzled about the necromantic spells in it.

Silfer, but what you describe as the element of fire is anything made of dead matter(= Earth) trying to become alive. Necromancy seems like the wrong term for that thing as necro is connected to human death not dead Earth or stone trying to be made alive.

Still cannot make out any reason for any affinity to dead people. And sorry, just using common sense making bones walk which is a level five spell is already very pervert opposed to bones that are supposed to lie in a coffin.

btw: Raise Skeleton is currently also an Earth spell. Is that obsolete?


You see, I don't question the system but question the role of necromancy as part of it( I don't question its existance either).


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 12/15/03 19:55
13  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 16 December 2003, 11:02:00
Ok, different approach I obviously lost my audience. ;)

My questions:

What has fire to do with death aka necromancy?
What has transfering lifeforce to do with walking bones and corpses?
Why would any renown school or academy teach such things?

My conclusions:
Fire is not about death but about energy and emotions.
Transfering lifeforce sounds like good healing spells.
I see no reason a renown academy would teach such unethical things.

=>Necromancy has nothing to do with fire magic but is a way people might abuse fire magic spells or even spells from other schools to become immortal, make minions, be master over life and death, challenge the divine order,... etc.

Does that sound so stupid and improbable? ;)  


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 12/15/03 18:11
14  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 16 December 2003, 10:12:00
Now what benefit does a fire mage have from creating a skeleton? (besides annoying the priests of Queprur who will rip his guts out for disturbing the peace of the dead?)

You see, when you're a freaking fire mage who can manipulate minds, breathe fire and melt stones, what in the seven Depths of the Netherworlds has that to do with necromancy or death?

Just because someone knows how to build bombs his profession is not necessarily that of a bomb maker (otherwise 90% of all chemistry and physics people would be in jail).


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

15  Santharian World Development / Magic in the Lands of Caelereth / Re: The School of Fire Magic on: 15 December 2003, 15:48:00
Actually it is an ethical question: You've a spell called "Animate Death".

When you use it on a man who just died. Does it work to revive this guy without him being a mindless zombie. Fromreading it this is about transfering lifeforce, for me that sounds you just animate the body, when the guy is only half dead or something he'll thus be alive again.

However when you have a dead body and use that spell you animate a lifeless body. You can do that today, thus the neural breakdown of the brain indicates death not the heartbeat or the breathe, both later things you can keep running even after the death of the brain.


Would necromancy be the same like the later it would be the usage of fire healing spells for unethic means.


For me it's like nuclear physics and a nuclear bomb. Fireballs, animate/heal, etc. are all "technologies" of the "science" fire magic. Like a nuclear bomb, rising a zombie would be a perversion of this knowledge, it's just a form of using nuclear fission not a principle of nuclear physics itsself. Also, instead of nuclear bomb you can just use dynamite or use Earth magic for some Golem creation. It works different but has similar impact. In both cases you've an explosion aka something unliving moves again.

Now for fire magic the "technologies" would be for me:
-you can create fire
-you can manipulate emotions and the mind
-you can transfer lifeforce.

This doesn't really change much of the system but it would mean necromancy is not part of the system it is an abnormal way of applying it.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 12/14/03 23:04
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