"You're confusing your own impression and opinion what was an scocial necessity in ancient times."

That was not always the case, but mostly it was. Some countries are still that way today as well. So to say in ancient times is kind of misleading on it's own, because it still happens. It's a common tactic in America for a fereigner to get married to a citizen here to gain citizenship. My girlfriends mother did that, and then she divorced him and married her real lover and gave him citizenship. I had a teacher who had an arranged marraige in India, and they're still married after 13 years.

"Homosexuality was not an option, a homosexual person would be still married and would get children because it was his necessity."

There wouldn't be stuff against homosexuals if there weren't any around. But if you're saying that it couldn't be a lifestyle then yeah your right.

" An unmarried woman has no social disadvantages for being unmarried, a marriage is done because of affection not out of necessity. Thus also when this affection is disturbed or completely destroyed a couple will not endure this awkard situation like it was done in past millenias but just decide they'll go seperate ways."

While this is very true, single mothers are on the rise in the working industry, you have to watch divorce court as well. We've got a couple stations with their own version of divorces, why they want a divorce etc. etc.

"I won't even start how varied the definition of murder can be. When we look at certain ancient societies murder however was not equal to kill someone."

Erk...then what was it equal to? I'm curious now lol

"I don't have the experience that cheating is a social norm or even tolerated."

Oh I do! I do! I'm born from adultery! I keep secrets for my cousins when they cheat on their girls, their father cheats on his wife whenever he's out of the country. My other uncle has 3 girlfriends and still goes to whorehouses, he recently divorced his wife after she found out he had a total of 6 kids between those 3 girlfriends, and they all know.

Very nice post, like I said, I cannot follow the bible because of how I am, and times change, but the things that do remain, I feel would have the same judgement even if society is different.

"The core of the ethics still apply but all these neat details what is sin and what is not is very out of date."

Murder is still murder, homosexuality is still homosexuality. Adultery is still adultery. In America 50% of married couples get divorced, and how many of them have been having affairs? It's become the social norm to cheat on your significant other, it's glorified on Music Videos and Movies by "playas" and "pimps". I still think cheating is totally horrible, and I would rather tell my girlfriend who I love to death that I'm having problems and yadda yadda yadda. Not go sleep around like a dog.

"One should not forget that many things today are different than anything the people at the time of the bible could ever foresee."

Very true, who could have imagined the internet? And who could have imagined so much of it is full of porn? It's also become acceptable for boys my age to look at porn at least once a day to do our affairs. I've given up the porn, although I'll still download some time to time to see where the industry as a whole is at (and I don't like where it's going).

"Add to that that the meaning of words and whole sentences change considerably over centuries and it gets really difficult to tell what a bible text really meant."

Actually they found a very VERY old bible, I've forgotten how old exactly but I remember reading it was very old, it was in the language of the original bible, and so they translated it to English, and the only things wrong were punctuation errors. But remember, theologians can put a twist on translation, I think the most widely accepted version of the bible for accuracy is the King James version.

"I'm always amazed what historians can tell about seemingly unoffensive text passages or how the meaning twisted from what we would understand today. In the end people mostly believe what they want to read there, even if the authors might have meant something else."
I've noticed this on many occasions, even my English class. In the book the Scarlet Letter, there is a scene where Hester removes her scarlet letter while she's in the woods with the priest and our teacher told us it was because she stripped and they had sex, but my Ane heard and took it a different way. That's why I say, read for yourself, because even the denominations of the Church add more spins to religion.

"The church cannot forbid the publishing of books but it did so for centuries when it still could. The hunting of Christian splinter groups as heretics was often based on those groups worshipping other biblic texts."

Which was my point, back when these other books were around, if the Church truly saw them as a threat, they could have had them wiped out. But I will try and get to the bottom of this if I can.

Well Ane, when I first heard of these other books a few years ago, I was told those were the reasons why they weren't included, but I will look into it. I'd really like to know if the Church has something up their sleeve. But I mean if these books were really taken out just because, I wouldn't think they would be readily published and be able to be accessed but I will look into it.

Although I don't think in any of those other books were allowant of gay marraige (I may be way wrong though since I have NOT read them).

And that's why I say go on your own, don't go with a denomination, read it and interpret for yourself. It's not like it's less Holy if you don't have a group to interpret it for you.

About those texts you're mentioning, those are excluded for many reasons. Depending if they contradict other parts of the bible, if the writing style changed drastically (as in they don't believe it was written by the same person) and many other factors.

But all of these texts can be found in a book on it's own. And if you really are interested in everything, then go ahead and buy the book, decide for yourself whether or not they belond in the bible or not.

If you get lost, which really can happen. Call up local preachers and ask them. Get opinions, and decide for yourself. I'm sure many of them have lots of useful info for you, but you shouldn't rely on them alone.

Interpretation is key. As there are still terrorist Christian groups running about. And there are even differences between what 10 commandments the different denominations have.

www.biblicalheritage.org/...dments.htm

A person is limited to the best translation available to them to read. But I feel they should read it for themselves and interpret it in their own way. Not leave it up to the preacher, or just go with the flow of your friends and family. I have a few friends who have studied for themselves and if they go to Church, they go on saturdays, because the Sabbath is the 7th day, which is Saturday, and nowhere in the Bible is that commandment changed.

You can only put absolute faith in something you yourself trust, and have done by yourself. So read the book, form your thoughts on what it means, and believe in it. I just hope you're level headed enough not to read it and go join the KKK or something like that. And not go around killing gay people, there are a lot of laws in the bible that can call for the death of people, but it doesn't say for you to do it yourself.

It's your faith, not anyone elses, so do it for yourself.

"And to me, it sounded like you're already telling Christians what to do and what is wrong despite what you said otherwise in this post...I feel you're contradicting yourself now *shrug*"

I expect a person who says they're a follower of God, a card carrying Christian, to follow the book and it's teaching. Just like how I expect someone who says they're a good citizen to abide by the laws, not break the ones they don't like. But there are few that do, in both cases. It doesn't mean the people are bad, stupid, or anything negative. Just when I see something as serious as God, something that will determine how you spend eternity, I expect it to be taken pretty darn seriously, not something you bend to your will because of likes, dislikes etc. etc.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I'm religious, my Ane knows I'm not and she knows I don't have anything against gay people, I guess I made the connection that since she knows you would know as well which was really stupid of me lol.

Sorry Dala, forgot you on the last post

"God also says that 'Thou shalt not kill', but it's alright to do so when the same God tells me to in another section of the Bible? Isn't that hypocrisy like Silfer said?"

It is hypocrisy, which is why I don't follow the Bible, there's too much in there I do not agree with, and do not comply with. But this hypocrisy happens in the old testamanet, he says thou shalt not kill in the old testament, not the new. I do believe there is a God, but I cannot call myself a Christian because I know I cannot fully give myself the way the Bible says so. I can only call myself a Jew because of my Hebrew bloodline.

"The old Testament God was all fire and brimstone and while He was revered, that God was also feared. The New Testament says we should love our enemies, so how do you reconcile this with a God who tells you to kill or look upon gay people with disfavour? Oh wait, or maybe you don't reconcile, hence your stance from Leviticus which is from the Old Testament."

It's the same God, the thou shalt not kill like I said is from the old testament, the old testmanet of fire and brimstone, so it's not like he suddenly changed in the new testament.

"Sorry, I'm a little vague on Jewish beliefs and you say you're Jewish so orthodox Judaism doesn't acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah, rite? Therefore, the New Testament doesn't officially exist as part of the Bible for the Jewish religion?"

Yes, they're all the old testamanet, they're still waiting for their Messiah.

"*shrug* Like I said, I don't know much about Judaism but if you're coming in from a Jewish viewpoint, I get you, but you said you expect Christians to follow the Bible if they're to call themselves Christians. I wonder where do you get the basis of your expectations on how a Christian should behave then?"

Their bible still has the old testament, the old testament is where the 10 commandments are, where a lot of the groundwork is. You can personally follow what you believe, that is your decision, not mine, and it is not my job to say your way is wrong or to prove it. I am not a studying following Hebrew because my views like yours conflict with the bible, and I choose not to follow it because of those conflictions.

Koldar, in Germany Michael Moore's books are topsellers, that's all I have to say about that.
Our news stations are either left or right. You will find Bush under fire on almost every news station except Fox news, because they're conservative, it's not fair, but since the majority of them are liberal, when something stirs them, it's pretty much all you will hear about. Not that it doesn't mean it's not validated, or untrue, but it will get much more exposure than something the conservatives feel is newsworthy.

And no Ane I didn't have my bartmizfah, but then again I haven't had a birthday party since I was 7. And no I don't go to the synagogue because I don't follow any religion. But how do I prove I'm Jewish? My grandfather and grandmother fled Egypt when Nassir (Nassar? I'm not keen on spelling) came into power, he took all my father had worked for, his house, business, and all the money he had in banks. From there they went to France, where my mom was born, they applied to a Jewish foundation in America and the foundation responded and had them live in a small Jewish community in the east coast. Then from there they moved to Hollywood California where my grandfather worked two jobs to buy property in the area. When my Jewish mother gave birth to me, a bastardized son of a Mexican man, my grandmother disowned my mother and I and forced my grandfather into it. From there she has sold the property she inherited from my grandfather after he died, and has given all of my other parts of the family excess of $1,000,000 and my mother and I have received nothing. Because she brought shame to our proud Jewish family.  And that doesn't mean I'm the all knowing Jew who knows all there is to know about being a Jew, but not all Jews feel this movie is against them either. But speaking as a Jew, I didn't feel insulted, because that actually happened. It's like watching Schindlers list and saying they showed the Nazi's in a bad way.

And silfer, I don't dislike gay people, which is why I don't follow religions. I don't like following a book that has such laws and teachings such as those. But I feel that if you do decide to follow a religion, you do it all the way, not cut out the parts you didn't like, like my father did. The old testament is still in the Christian bible for a reason, and I think the notion that God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve is totally idiotic. I don't dislike gay people, I've never had a bad experience with them whatsoever, they've always been nice and good people from what I've experienced, and what they do in their bedroom is their business, just like what I do in my bedroom is my business.

"As for the book of that prophet, the argumentation you so dislike: Well, a LOT of christians I know use that passage as argument for disliking gay people, but they do NOT follow the rest of the laws. Hypocracy, anyone?"

Yes it's very hypocritical, they should learn to shut their mouths before they speak. They should follow those rules, it's those breed of Christians that omit what they don't feel like they should follow, yet emphasize on what they do like.

And Koldar, yes Bible.com has really messed up views on a lot of things. But they have the passages there which is what I mainly care about, ignore their main arguements for most things. I think they say pokemons are demons and stuff. I liked Silfers site better in terms of research, but their arguement of "But you can ignore this because it also says this this and this" just bothers me to no end.

And if he is anti-Jew, why would he hire Jews to do the acting? And pay them a lot with his own money?

A director can't sign a contract that says "You cannot speak out against this movie after the movie has ended." People need money but I'm sure they still have convictions. When they interview the stars, they don't say a bad thing about Mel or about the movie. This is a movie based on the bible, and it depends on you as the viewer to determine whether the bible is fact or fiction. He went for accuracy, so he made the Jews look Jew, the Romans look Roman, and the Jesus look Jesus.

The Jews betrayed him, but it was the Romans that did the brutality. The Jews felt this man was a false prophet, I don't care who you are in any religion back then, you're gonna die. This movie relies on common sense to not be taken the wrong way as are many movies. I suggest you watch the movie, because out of 12,566 the average rating is 5/5.

Anyways, it's not totally weird to see the anti-Jew thing on a lot of news, the news stations are mostly liberal. Of course they don't complain when liberal celebrities buy out a Cuban station that delivers news about what's happening in Cuba to those who are native to Cuba and are going to start doing liberal politics. Now those poor people have no way to know what's going on back home where there families are, but are any of the news stations harping? Nope nope.

I'm a Jew and I didn't have a problem with this movie, you're talking about a movie you haven't seen, about a people you aren't apart of, and about a director you've never met. I have two of the three, but I could be totally off on what kind of person Mel really is because I have never met this man. I can only assume what I have heard and read is true.

I don't do a thing for this site. But I get plenty bored. Is that a problem?  

And Ane, I don't think it's that you have stricter justifications on when someone can be targeted, just that you see people being targeted with more ease than we do.

Just a little info, some of the people in the movie were Jewish, if he was anti-Jew, or if the people in the movie thought it was anti-Jew, why aren't they on TV complaining about Gibsons anti-Jew sentiment on the set? Why aren't they lashing out?

I'm just waiting for someone to go off about how Racist the movie is because there aren't any blacks in it.

I don't like your link too much. The part of different interpretation about Sodom and stuff is interesting, and if true means those cannot be used as examples. But something bothers me about a different part.

Other Old Testament scriptures are selectively used to show that the Bible condemns a gay lifestyle. Two are found in the book of Leviticus, 18:22 and 20:13: "Though shalt not lie with a man as though would lie with a woman." Anyone whos quotes these prohibitions should read the entire chapters or the whole book of Leviticus. Levitical law demands no eating of pork, lobster, shrimp, oysters, or rare meat; no intercoursing during the mentrual period; no interbreeding of cattle; and a whole host of other laws, including the law to kill people who commit adultery.

Just because you do not like the laws doesn't mean they aren't valid. To ignore the parts of the bible you do not like and still call yourself a Christian just boggles my mind. You are not forced to be a Christian, but if you choose to be one, I expect you to follow the book.

And these laws about what to eat. Jews have been eating this way for a long time, and do you know what they discovered? There are much more things in pork that can kill you. And eating shrimp, lobster, or types of sea life without scales are prone to traveling diseases and contaminations, the scales is what protects them, and this was only found out recently. So to say that those things don't matter because YOU don't like them and YOU don't think they're fair or right, well then YOU don't have to be a Christian.