Well, the solution to this "problem" would be simple. Use Terran laws of intensity and apply them to Caelerethian magic. Or, as Silfer already said, the "potential" of the spell decays with increased range.

If I'm correctly, Terran intensity decays with the square of the increase in radius. (Thus, having effect X at 4 meters will cost 4x more energy than creating effect X at 2 meters distance).
That way, you can have a ranged spell without having the problem of things happening at the other end of the world.

Anyway, I looked up the Spell Sphere definitions, and though I'm no magic expert, I found nothing that would disable a Sphere I mage from casting a spell outside his visual range. The latter seems a strange thing to me anyway, for
1) Sight is not the only sense a person has. Hearing, smell etc. can all extend one's range of detection.
2) No Sphere II or I mage would be able to cast spells in darkness, behind him, blindfolded, or when being blind. It would effectively mean that mages of lower Spheres could be disabled by simple removing their sight, or hiding yourself from their sight.

Furthermore, I do not really understand the analogy with the supermarket. First, the point of discussion is the visibility of the target, and suddenly it is range. To me those things are quite different, and using them similarly only.
The question whether I'm able to grasp my mouse with my eyes closed is wholly different from the question if I'm able to grasp it from a hundred meters distance.

Just my two sans worth.

KR,
Theodorus

I think the energy "sink" or "parasite" would be a better way to construct this particular effect. That way, the enchantment can just be lurking around without having to provide a constant flow of energy to sustain it.

The only thing the enchantment needs to "know" now is how to react to another spell and then drain it, instead of having to effect all of the Car'all in the vincinity.

KR,
Theodorus

Nah, I don't agree with you on the energy thing here, Mina.
As the area affected by the dampening field would be in constant change, you'd need to sustain the dampening effect to have it remain working.

For instance, if you'd try to cover a river, each new fish that'd swim into your field would have to be changed in order for it to be harder to be manipulated by magic.
And therein also lies the problem with the permanent changing of Car'all into a harder form; everything that'd move out of the affected area would still have the dampening effect, and so the area of effect would partially spread, with everything passing through it being afflicted permanently.

KR,
Theodorus  

IMHO it does.

For example, let me take the astronomical model. If we had not created this model, at some point, somebody might have created an event on which the Sun would be eclipsed by the Moon.
However, that would be impossible combined with the other sources about where the Sun and Moon respectively are located. (The Moon stands on another side of the Disc, so it can never be in front of the Sun).
Now that's very sad for someone who wanted to tell a story about a Solar eclipse, but it would have been sadder if we'd had to change an entry afterwards.

Now I'm not proposing to have some elaborate construction of Magical Laws and such, only two or three "Axioms", such as:
A) The Gods exist (providing validity for Clerical Magic)
B) There exists such a thing as Cosmic Energy, which can be manipulated by Will. (Which would allow for Druids/Ximaxians/Kreans and the like to practice magic).

But at some point, it would prevent a theory where Magic would be explained by requesting chances in the Universe being done by little gnomes that can be cultivated upon beds of flowery love.
Now of course it could be a theory, and hell, it could even work, but it couldn't be true. From a scholars POV, we wouldn't know it, but from a Dev's POV we would.

Eventually, all magic systems are either descriptions of one reality, or descriptions of multiple realities. But all systems are a set of laws that connect variables to predictions. As long as we haven't got a general picture of what the predictions/outcomes will be, any given system of magic would work.
Then the question is. why isn't there a magical system that allows for a spell that binds Coór to the caster and forces him to stand on his head?
I could invent such a system, make it compatible with this world, to a certain extent, and still you would all say it is impossible. And it would be impossible because we defined something about Coór that makes it impossible. And that's the purpose of definition here.

However, I know this issue has been brought to table before, and I know the agreement which was reached back then, so I suppose it's better to quit this discussion and hand Pikel his thread back, as I do not think I'm the appropriate person to challenge the rules laid down for magic development.

KR,
Theodorus

Yes, it was indeed discussed years ago. I know, because it was at a time when I was still here.
And the agreement then was that the developers should not have an omniscient view of the world.

However, recently at least the astronomical approach has been established, and I think this might be workable for other fields as well. Because at some point, we need to know what kinds of things can be described, and what not.

Same goes for magic, methinks. Otherwise, sooner or later theories/magical systems will appear that can no longer be combined with the other systems.

KR,
Theodorus

Addition:

However, even if a General Theory of Magic is established, that still doesn't imply that eventually one Caelerethian magical system should be "right", or that most systems should be developed in similar fashion.
Rather, we need a general explanation as to why and how all these different magical systems work and this theory should try to avoid Ximaxian/clerical/Krean theories as much as possible.

KR,
Theodorus

Well, I think the problem here is quite fundamental.
From a scholar's POV, Judith's theory remains but theory, and can in no way be imposed on general Santharian development. However, from a developers POV, we might eventually be forced to determine "how magic really works" (e.g. what this "Power" is that makes magic work).

The point is that we as developers have the thought in the back of our heads that the Caelerethian Universe should be governed by certain laws, just as the Terran Universe is. However, as scholars, we cannot describe these laws, simply because we don't know them.

However, it might be wise to reopen the discussion on whether or not we should eventually determine the mechanisms that govern the world of Caelereth. Not as much for the compendium itself, but rather as a guide for developers.
(Same thing as with the cosmological model).
This of course all refers to Judith's reality version C, which is currently undefined.

As such I'd like to propose to initiate a discussion somewhere, where we can define Caelerethian Magic by two or three Laws/Axioms, and from there on fit the magical systems into this general idea of magic.

After all, we (as the developers) need to define this world, before we (as scholars) can describe it. Otherwise chaos will erupt.

KR,
Theodorus

Now, I cannot agree with you here, dear Bard.

For yes, things in the world are the samen, and will be perceived the same way. However, that does by no account mean they should be explained in likewise fashion.

The point is that although both gravity, or the presence of little invisble gnomes pounding on everything can both explain gravity, both theories have all kinds of other consequences, not directly related with the concept of a gravitational force, that make them different.
Therefore, the eventually elaborated theories would be vary much different.

Moreover, I don't think we can just conclude that all magic in Caelereth should all be explained by the same system. If not the only reason for that would be that we don't even know for certain if the Ximaxian system is the right one. Perhaps it's totally of track in explaining how magic works in reality, who'd now?

I don't think it's wise to equate magic in Caelereth to Terran science, even though there is a tendency to do so. The whole theory of Car'all, elements, Xeuá and ounia, and all other components which I don't know about is of course very interesting, and might very well be able to describe magical phenomena in Caelereth.
But we musn't forget that every other system that could explain these phenomena, even though it's radically different, is valid as well.
Otherwise, it will just be a semantical difference, only the names applied to the same concepts will have changed. And then, there's really no reason left to have any other system than the Ximaxian.

I don't really think we can absolutize/universialize magic, also because it's connected to the cosmological make-up of this world. Because if we do, we'd eventually be forced to standardize one "true" cosmological view, and then the existance of other religions etc. would become a strange thing as well.

KR,
Theodorus

Actually, I wonder if it's really okay if the essences resemble the Car'all - idea. Because if they would both be more or less the same, then why would the Druids come up with a different system in the first place?
If it's almost like Car'all, there's not really any need to make things overly complicated.

And well, perhaps the magic-section could need an update as a whole. But I've just returned, and am certainly no magic master. So we might somebody else to look into that matter.

KR,
Theodorus

Before anything else, I'd say that it is vital you make clear that the whole idea of essences is something the Druids use only.
Otherwise, people might get confused when they read the Ximaxian entries and compare them to this cosmological view.

KR,
Theodorus

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Actually, it probably would need their approval because that's the kind of magic those people use, and thus whatever work is done on tht particular magic system has to fit with those races.

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Not necessarily, I think. As I assume no magical system in Caelereth is "absolute", none of the systems needs to be founded on an equal basis. Thus, a spirit-based magic system used by human druids could be something completely different than a spirit-based magic system used by Orcs.
Just as Terran Christianity is different from Islam, though they both believe in one God.
Of course there will be overlappings between all these systems, but Druids can still work with spirits in a totally different way than Brownies, without having the need of them applying the same techniques.
That is, however, only true if I recalled correctly that from our POV nothing in Caelereth has been completely determined.

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I'm not sure if there is a diversity of faith in Santharia. There certainly is a lot of diversity throughout Caelereth, but in Santharia itself, it seems almost everyone seem to follow the same religion, with slight differences here and there.

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True, my bad. I still forget that Santharia and Caelereth are not synonymous (why not call it the Caelerethian Dream then?  ). However, even that statement is not entirely true. Look for instance at the subtle but fundemental differences between the Ximaxian elementary system and the alchemy system. Both are, I believe, Santharian, however, they do not agree on the theory of elements.

Quote:

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I won't debate whether the characteristics of the elements are truly universal here, but I do think that the Druids, assuming beliefs are relatively uniform throughout Santharia, would have the same associations as the Ximaxians, and the rest of the Santharians. In designing magic systems, I take the view that the explanations the followers of the system have are nothing more than how they believe magic works, so things such as car'all and spirits are part of the beliefs of the system's followers, and actual proof of their existence do not really exist. Yes, their magic produce the exact results they say it would, but this doesn't mean that they are right; there could be another explanation for it. Thus, I don't think they they would actually be able to study the spirits and come up with significantly different characteristics for the elements. The culture they are a part of states that the elements have certain properties, and so the spirits they use to explain their magic would have the same characteristic as well.

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Perhaps. But once you assing these spirits the same characteristics as the elements, and let the Druids manipulate them the same way a Ximaxian would manipulate the elements, there isn't much of a difference anymore. Then Druids would be nothing more than another variety of mages.

The point I'm trying to make is that I think Druids need a substantially different view on the world than Ximaxian mages. The way they experience nature and cosmology should be different, and thus their magical system. Otherwise, they'd just be wizards with another name.

KR,
Theodorus

Quote:

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Uhm, this thing with spirits was in fact what I was hoping to use for shamanism (assuming the people in charge of the Orcs and Brownies and anyone else who might use this kind of magic approves it). Also, a belief in spirits would be religious, making it a subset of clerical magic. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

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I don't think there's any need for people working on other races to approve of your work on shamanism. After all, it isn't unlikely that similar beliefs are present with different races.
However, I think it would be wise to keep in mind there's a difference between shamanism/animism as a religion, and as a way of practicing magic. Mullogs, for instance, view it solely as a religious things, not as magical.

Quote:

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I would expect that the qualities the Druidic Orders associate with each element to be quite similar to those of the Ximaxians, as the beliefs about the elements are not exclusive to the Ximaxians. I think they originally came from the Elves, and were then adopted by the Humans as well. Assuming that the members of the Druidic Orders are mostly Elves and Humans (I think they are, but I don't remember it very clearly), their ideas would not be very different from what the Ximaxians have.

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To me, there's a difference between an element and a spirit. Elements are, roughly speaking, the "building blocks" of the world, just as the Terran chemical elements are.
The word "spirit" is more connected with something like a "soul", and might at some level implicate a form of sentience or consciousness.
Thus, spirits and elements are quite different things, and so shouldn't necessarily be classified by the same elemental system.

Moreover, I'd think that Druids would work just the other way around. Rather than picking an already existing system, such as the elementary, and then fitting their spirits in, they would try to understand these spirits and then create a system to classify them.
It might be so that this system would be similar to the elementary, however, I think they wouldn't come up with something that "technical".
But this is only my opinion, which is greatly influenced by my conviction that Santharia should have a great diversity of faiths, rather than merely different varieties of a single uniformous belief.

KR,
Theodorus

Edited by: Theodorus Holzman at: 10/4/05 16:39

Just a quick note here.
In the new Mullog entry I'm about to finish soon, I've written a few things about Mullog religion, which actually comes quite close to animism. There are a few things described there.

Now, it is your choice to what extent these two spiritual systems will be alike, but it's something you might want to keep in mind.

Furthermore, I think it is not necessary to link the spirits of objects/creatures to the Ximaxian system. IMHO it would be more interesting to develop a system starting from an earthrooted religion POV, instead of from a Ximaxian POV and then translating it to another form of religion.
Moreover, I suggest avoiding general statements, such as it is with the description of the Plant-spirit. A small flower might "feel" wholly different than an enormous oak.
Same goes for other elements. There's a difference between a pebble and a mountain, I think.

KR,
Theodorus

It seems the most simple explanation of the Orb would be to regard it as a "hole" in the fabric of the world, in such a way that the Void is gained presence there.

The properties of the Void seem to resemble that of the Orb. Both actually enhance the effect of a wish. And although the Void seems to do it in a more controllable fashion, the Orb might, for some reason, do it in a less orderly way, resulting in the wild increase of any spell being cast.

But yes, the entry on the Void is rather vague, and perhaps it's wiser to wait with explaining the Orb this way until there's more clarification on the Void itself. I even don't know if we established for certain that the world was flat (which is implied by the Void entry).

KR,
Theodorus

Possible useful references I found about the Orb:

"Ximan's revealed it all. The Orb, the Wards, and the call that we and our descendants must follow for the next ten thousand years. We've found the single most powerful beacon of magic on the entire continent. It's no wonder it has gone unseen for so long, and the mystery of my father's blindness is revealed. Ximan conjured a tiny spark next to the thing, and it became an inferno the size of one of Dornaj's Glass Houses. (Chronicler's Note: One of the first major works in force sorcery, the Glass Houses were crude spheres of magic that repelled rain, wind, and predators. They were approximately ten peds in diameter.) I guess some wizard must have tried to light a fire... poor man.

Anyway, this is what he said. "We have to keep this thing down, but we can't keep it down for all time. So, we stay here. We stay here, and we bring others to us. We set up a little school for magi, where their talents will be a bit more obvious, and they'll be guaranteed great honor and as much as we can teach them if they chose to follow us, and keep this thing sealed."

"On the inside of the Circle rests one of the Wonders of Santharia: the Tear of Avá, the Uarná'ésh-dél, the Orb of Ximax... Call it what you will, this immensely powerful sphere of magical energy is the heart of the Institute, and the entire City of Mages was built up around this phenomenon. The only mortal beings allowed to enter the roiling energies within the Orb are the Archmagi, during their induction and meetings of the Conclave. It is rumored that the Orb is truly a place where the energies of the Gods can be focussed; where the line between the Dream and Night is blurred, and it is the only place where mortals may reach the divine - or so it is told..."

What I now wonder about is the actual size of the thing. As it seems, the Archmagi actuall "enter" the Orb. (?) But on the other hand, it cannot be thát big, otherwise it would have been noted and investigated long before Ximan was there.
From what I see from the entries, the Orb just adds a limitless amount of magic to the surrounding environment, but it is not really clear to me how this should work. As I thought magic was in this world not as much a substance, but more an event.

KR,
Theodorus