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Author Topic: An Oun of a Proposal  (Read 8539 times)
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Kikhku
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« on: 16 July 2004, 23:18:00 »

"Oh Ava, not one of this idiot's posts again!"

One of the big problem about this magic system is that we're not sure how it works.  This is a quote from Rayne, sort of.  I hear things about expanding and shrinking car'all, yet we have very little knowledge about the oun itself.  So in the true santharian spirit, I have decided to create knowledge about the Oun.

This is merely a proposal.  It fits into the magic system and will explain a lot while leaving very little to alter as far as existing spells and entries go.  It may also open up new doors to new spells (including that nasty element we know as earth).  This is written with real world referances.  If it were to be adopted, it would need to be changed.  I know this, so dun beat me for talking about baseballs and rubber bands in the second paragraph.  So without further Ado.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Oun and it's Limitations.

The Oun is the smallest unit of Car'all.  But what is an actual oun, and how does it work?  What can be accomplished by "expanding" an oun and what does expanding an oun entail?  These and other questions will be answered in this short write-up.

To picture a physical representation of an oun, one might start with a baseball.  Three rubber bands, are wrapped around the ball so that all of the intersections form only right angles.  The ball is removed and the bands are left in the resulting shape.  The resulting figure can be stretched or compressed, twisted, bent, and collapses fairly easily.  However, Car'all does not have a physical form.  While it can be stretched or compressed, the latter three actions are impossible with an oun.  An oun cannot collapse, twist, or bend, it can only be stretched.

Returning to the rubber band model, each of the bands represents one aspect of the physical structure that the oun is affixed to.  For this demonstration, we will label the bands, from the outermost to the innermost, the Bronze, Silver, and Gold Aspects of the oun.

An elemental magi achieves his desired effects by expanding one or more of the Aspects of a group of oun.  For example, a fire magi's lightning involves stretching the Bronze and Silver Aspect of a line of fire oun.  

The best way to understand what can be accomplished via the stretching and compressing of Aspects is to understand what each Aspect defines.  This is a preliminary list of what the expansion and contraction of each aspect will do to an structure.

Fire
-Bronze: Light- When this aspect is expanded, the object will produce light.  Contracting this aspect will cause a limited amount of darkness.
-Silver: Heat- The expansion dictates the tempurature of an object.  A fire magi can contract a fire oun, but the contraction of a fire oun never results in anything cooler then room tempurature.
-Gold: Movement Within a Body- The basis of all necromancy and forge magic.  Expansion of the Gold Aspect causes bending and twisting in an object.

Earth
-Bronze: Solidity- Deals with the brittleness and strength of a structure.  Expanded Bronze Aspects result in a stronger structure.
-Silver: Magnetism- The Silver Aspect creates a magnetic attraction or repulsion.  Expansion of this Aspect will result in a positive charge while contraction of this Aspect results in a negative magnetic charge.
-Gold: Gravity- Deals with the weight of an object.  Expanding this Aspect causes the physical counterpart to become heavier.  Contraction of this aspect lightens the object, but an object can only lose fifteen percent of it's weight through the contraction.

Water
-Bronze: Cold- Expansion of this aspect will cool an object down.  Contraction will warm an object up.  Liquid water can be turned into steam through the contraction of this Aspect, but higher temperatures are unachievable.
-Silver: Not sure yet, any suggestions?-
-Gold: State of Matter- This Aspect dictates which state of matter an object exists in: solid, liquid, or gas.  Enough expansion will melt and eventually vaporize the object.

Wind
-Bronze: Electrical Charge- The basis for wind based lightning spells.  Expansion of this Aspect results in a positive charge, contraction in a negative charge.
-Silver: Movement of a Body- Expanding this aspect results in physical movement.  Contraction will hinder movement.  This is sometimes called the inertia Aspect.
-Gold: Gravity- Expansion of the gold aspect lessens gravity's hold on an object, making it lighter and even weightless.  A wind magi can also compress this aspect, making an object heavier, but an object's weight can only be increased by thirty percent through wind magics alone.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Mina
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« Reply #1 on: 17 July 2004, 01:56:00 »

Uhm...the expanding/contracting cár'áll stuff is kinda outdated, if I'm not mistaken.  That was before we began talking about oun.  How it all works now, I'm not really sure, but I've been speaking to Arti about it, so hopefully I'll figure out what's going on soon.  For now, what I've found out from Arti is that first sphere spells deal with altering the strength of xeuá links between oun, second sphere spells have to do with moving the oun of the caster's element into the central position, after which th strength of the links are altered (so it's like sphere 1, but stronger), and sphere 3 spells add or remove oun from the cár'áll, after which first and second sphere techniques can be employed.  There are also several properties associated with each element (this seems to me to be the way Ximax divides spells into different elements, actually), and one or more of these properties can be targeted with each spell.  I'm still confused about what effects can be achieved with each sphere and why it is so though.  


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Kikhku
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« Reply #2 on: 17 July 2004, 05:08:00 »

AFAIK, expansion and contraction are not outdated.  With this system, the three spheres of spells still exist.  A mage can still move the ouns around.  These will help define the properties ascociated with each element, though.  ^^

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #3 on: 23 July 2004, 14:05:00 »

Well, I guess I'm repeating myself. But I think it's necessary to point out once more why I'm tempted to put a big "Keep Out For Now!" shield in front of all things concerning magical development. This is because proposals like this come up regularly. Actually this is not one of the weirdest, but it clearly states a point though, of what I think is our duty to keep out as much as possible.

And I'll have to point out once more why this is so:

Magic is not and never should be physics. Magic is a spiritual thing, guys, it's an art of the mind. It's a way to work with ideas, of making a thought become reality. Of realizing a possibility through the caster's spirit. It really hurts to see magic being completely reduced to something close to a molecular or atomic structure.

Note that Cár'áll means actually "Aura", and that is what magic deals with. It is spirit. And it is spirit through and through. The links (Xeuá) we refer to are spiritual links, which may have a physical appearance, but not necessarily. But an aura isn't a concrete object, you know. An aura is a possibility, it's a spiritual material, which can change. A Xeuágram is a strict simplification of a complicated process taking place in the caster's mind - magic is "feeling", of weaving possibities together, it's not what a chemist or a physican does. A scientist may calculate how much CO2 is needed to add to a substance to produce a certain result, the mage doesn't calculate, but "feel". - An object does not consist of 3 water ouns, 5 fire ouns and 1 wind oun, which seems to be suggested in this proposal given above. An aura is possibility, leaning towards certain elements perhaps, but that's it.

From this definition I gather: It is not necessary to precisely define until the last oun what Ximaxian magic does. It is a spiritual art, and what you really need to train is this connecting of possibities leaning towards a certain state. You manipulate the fabric of the world by "thinking" if you so want.

Kikhku's proposal (again) comes from the wrong direction in my point of view and stresses once more the physical aspect, neglecting the clear dominance of the spiritual process magic actually is, reducing it to the technical combining of stuff, just like a chemist would do. Magic can per definitionem never be that concrete if you ask me.

Though I see the attempt here to make it all somehow work with a property system, the approach doesn't stay true to what magic should be with all this colour things and oun-"chemistry". Casting a spell means to target cár'áll in a certain spiritual way (that's the sphere, the how), and in this process a possibility is highlighted if you so want. E.g. the possibility towards water comes prevalent (the primary "oun"). It's like building a sand castle. The mage needs the sand first, and this is what the sphere does. Providing the sand (either bending reality so that the sand seems gathered, in a weird perspective if you so want = Sphere 1, or actually gathering it, Sphere 2). Or make it interact with the surroundings = Sphere 3 (advanced spell). Note that this is all done spiritually. And this possibility only needs a form. Just like you have a cake pan you put such a form over this "sand of reality" - and this form contains the "properties", e.g. make the water elements ice, make the fire burn etc.

And the big and essential difference to the proposal above: It's a holistic view. It is all a spiritual manipulation of an aura, which is actually the precise counterpart of any chemical or physical approach.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/22/04 22:13
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"Between the mind that plans and the hands that build there must be a mediator, and this must be the heart." -- Maria (Metropolis)
Kikhku
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« Reply #4 on: 23 July 2004, 14:35:00 »

Eh, I think I get it now.  So basically magic just works and we don't ask questions, right?

Can this proposal at least be used as part of the Ximaxian viewpoint of magic?  They do seem to be the most scientific (and are probably the only ones who conduct research about magic).

Also, can we add magnetism to the properties of earth magics (or was it already there)?

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Mina
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« Reply #5 on: 23 July 2004, 15:38:00 »

I agree.  Ximax, at least, seems to view magic as a science.  It'd make sense for them to come up with something like this.  Also, Arti, your explanation does not seem to suggest that it is not a science, merely that it is spiritual rather than physical.  The fact that the Ximaxians came up with concepts like cár'áll and xeuá to explain things, and that they have definite ways of manipulating cár'áll to achieve the effects they want seems to suggest that they do work a little like scientists, trying to figure out how stuff works and such.  The only difference would be that scientists work with the physical world, while mages work with the spiritual one.  


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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #6 on: 23 July 2004, 16:00:00 »

:lol  Mina

Most scientists working with physical things tend to deny that there is something like sciece in the spirituel world ;)

Don't know, if it is the right place to ask , but I have one question.
Mina said somewhere in a comment, that magic is principally everywhere, and everybody is able to learn it, he just has to be trained.

I thought, you have to be gifted (and elves are all gifted, humans only a few); Most times it is said, that you can't do magic without training. Is that  already "fact", or could this still be different far away from Ximax?  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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« Reply #7 on: 23 July 2004, 16:58:00 »

I'm pretty sure that's what was decided here some time ago.  Those who are gifted are merely better at it, and probably learn more quickly.  Have I been mistaken all the while?  


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Titus of Fairhaven
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« Reply #8 on: 23 July 2004, 19:14:00 »

I always thought of magic as kinda like a college education.  You aren't just born with the knowledge, you have to study and work at it.  If you go to a school, it'll take a lot less time then if you get tutoring, but everyone can get one.

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Koldar
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« Reply #9 on: 24 July 2004, 01:33:00 »

If ouns aka thoughts and the mind forms reality in Caelereth, the oun model is physics for Caelereth actually.and might be still similarily determined - which can also include that it's chaotic by nature and thus impossible to predict. Afterall, physics can only predict possibilities as well as long as not all variables are known. In the same sense I would see the Oun.  It's like trying to explain physics without the knowledge of the atom, gravity, relativity. The whole thing gets vague, the mage only knowing that using his mind he can do certain things to certain objects under certain circumstances with a certain possibilty. Although the possibility would be uncertain actually.

So a mage might do the equivalent of quantum physics but as he does not really know what he does(just the same as when one uses a certain chemical reaction to his advantage without actually knowing how the chemical reaction works) the whole thing gets erratic and if you want spiritual.

The possibility thing can be easily explained with the fact that a mage touches the oun with his mind and thus its manipulation is subjective to each caster and cannot be measured with tools or math. I agree that a too scientific explanation is tedious. Give the system some basic logic so it doesn't appear too chaotic and make some shallow sense.
Maybe we could elaborate on the the world is made of thoughts stuff, I'm thinking here about a connection what is going on in the Etherial void. which might be an indication of unmanifested thoughts that have not  become reality or some stuff like that.

I don't know if that already happenbed but in any theoretical system you have to make some assumptions to what is fixed in a way. E.g. wether magic is possible to anyone or only to few. The important thing about these assumptions is just to make a decision here because in a fantasy world one can go multiple ways. I'm not sure but the idea about clerical magic and elementar magic was about on the one side a talented mage altering reality with his mind, on the other side ordinary! people changing reality with faith... which can be actually the same thing a mage has the advantage though feelling what he's doing while a priest does a blind shot attempting to change it somehow in a certain way, however without knowing if it has any effect.

A completely theoretical systerm like this must be only logic and sound in itself, just enough to not make it sound totally random (in which case the system is no system and can be abolished). In the case of magic the less firm numbers you use the easier it gets because the system will only contain a rough logical scheme how the things may usually work out best.  

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #10 on: 24 July 2004, 13:39:00 »

Ximaxian magic is a form of "science" (in contrast to natural elven magic), yes, but science of the spirit, you know...  It's an equivalent to philosophy, not to physics or chemistry. It's also more of a meta-science than a regular kind of science, I'd say. "Meta" means - it comprises other sciences, seeing them as mere disciplines, just like philosophy.

As I've studied philosophy and know of which disciplines such a meta-science consists I would see Ximaxian in a similar way: There might be for example a History discipline, and something similar what the philosophers call Ontology (Doctrine of Being), where e.g. the theories of Xeuá and the Elements are being discussed. Another discipline of philosophy is Logic for example, which is nothing concrete, but teaches you on how you can put things in relation to each other, and this could be similar in Magic (though Logic wouldn't be the name for it). Another Magic discipline could be Imagination - where the caster learn how to get rid of the physical world and train to establish relations within the casters mind etc. - So you see - the spiritual part is important, the physical part is just what results from the spiritual training.

And to answer mainly Talia's question here about magic being everywhere etc. - Well, we're in a fantasy world, aren't we? So why shouldn't someone be naturally more gifted than others to be able to change the fabric of the world - consciously or not? If you look e.g. at a Stephen King book or film you'll always have persons who can move things through thoughts and even create meteor rains etc. Well, this is a typical fantasy element, and I would handle it the same way in Santharia. There are persons who can "feel" the fabric of the world much easier than others and who can alter stuff without knowing Ximaxian theory - why not?

@Titus & Mina: It's also not necessary that they study in Ximax. Not every ability to do something magical could be seen as "gifted". Perhaps people might be even persecuted for such natural magical things (here you might have a possibility of a witch definition).

Magnetism: Sure, this would be something for earth. I wouldn't call it magnetism, though, that sounds very scientific. "Attraction" might also do, and explanations for a such a physical phenomenon could be explained in mythical ways.

The idea should be to keep the "magic" (the mystery) in magic, and not get down to the last scientific details of it. A philosopher doesn't really care that much about moleculs and atoms. A philosopher might make practical suggestions though for carbon-based beings consisting of atoms and molecules how to handle esthetics and morality, which you can use as guidelines to live - a practical result. Same with mages - they produce practical results with their spells through their spirits, and everything physical is just what the magic of the spirit produces, but not the focus of spellcasting.


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« Reply #11 on: 24 July 2004, 14:08:00 »

Well, under what circumstancesare people without training able to use magic then?  Until now, thouse of us at the RPG board have thought that it was not possible to perform magic without any training.  If this is not the case, we need to know how it really works.  You say that there should be some people who can alter stuff without knowing Ximaxian theory, but how common are they, and how much control do they have?  Do these magical effects happen as unconcious 'eruptions' when a person is under great stress, as was suggested somewhere in this forum a while ago?  Or maybe eruptions happen spontaneously, like in this recent CD I saw where the char's clothes just burst into flames when he picked up a sword?  Or do they have good enough control over their magic that they can actually rival mages who have been trained?  


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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #12 on: 24 July 2004, 15:08:00 »

Maybe magic in Santharia happens just as decribed in Ximax, it is somehow a knowledge buried deep in the society? It is not used in a different way, just out of custom? And in other places it works different?

I thought of a different magic concept, an quite easier of course, for the Himiko. Magic is banned in the icetribes on the continent, so I thought a good way of survival would be, if this matrilinear tribe has developed magic - as a privilege of the woman. I might change my territory therefore, so that the could have tighter links to the other icetribes..

This is what I have written down so far. I will surely add a lot more stuff, but the first ideas. Just have a look, if it would work.


Himiko Magic


1.The only form of magic practised is
- healing
- weather
- clairvoyance, ability to see distant places, not so much looking in the future


2. Magic is not available for all people, at least not to an amount worth speaking of. Only woman are able to do magic, and there this ability is bound to those with fair hairs - the fairer the greater the talent they are born with is.
(In modern terms we would say, the genes for fair hair and magic are coupled.) The magic potential grows with every child born.
Rare exceptions may be possible though.(Not for roleplaying, but for a story f.e.)

3.The magic doesn‘t show before the monthly bleeding has started. These young girls however are able to play around a bit with their new gift, or are haunted with clairvoyance, which they can‘t control. Playing means, that a girl could create a tiny patch of fog somewhere out of the air - with no real control over it.
Whereas all magical gifted have some inclination for all three realms, only one can be trained and learned to mastership.

4. This magic is wether one like in Ximax, nor like I plan the clerical for Santharia, but something inbetween. Their prayers are going in the direction of spells, but are not used as these, and are more reliable than those in Santharia, they just work and are not so dependant on faith like the Santharian ones.





*stands behind the door with a raised "Nudelholz"(rolling pin) to use on all who try to say it doesn't work!

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
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Kikhku
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« Reply #13 on: 24 July 2004, 15:33:00 »

"Until now, thouse of us at the RPG board have thought that it was not possible to perform magic without any training."

Eh, not true.  The chosen preformed magic without any training at all.  The problem is a character who uses magic without any training is bound to be overpowered in one way or another.  Yes, it is possible, but we don't allow it.

Arti- I like "Attraction" better then magnetism.  And I have the feeling that this will be the basis of many many spells.  I already have several in mind (picture a mage using the attraction force to gather several large stone projectiles together and use them to bombard an enemy).  However, I do believe the concept of magnetism was understood fairly well in the middle ages by at least some cultures, and I think that the word "magnetism" should be at least mentioned in the description.  

Dear Beth.....

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Mina
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« Reply #14 on: 24 July 2004, 15:37:00 »

It probably could if you don't stick too closely to Ximaxian theories.  See, that's why I wanted a base system defined: so we know what works and what doesn't.  Otherwise things might get a little inconsistent once more magic systems start appearing.  

Also, I didn't quite understand the first part of your post.  Are you suggesting that magic works differently in different places, so that what is possible in one place isn't necessarily possible in another?  That actually sounds like a pretty intersting idea.  

Kik, I did not include the Chosen.  The Chosen were always thought to be exceptions.  In any case, we don't know of any other cases of people performing magic without training...yet.    


Edited by: Mina Aylwin at: 7/23/04 23:38
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