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[Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels]

Well, I don't aim for the RPG board and would not have problems if these chars would be observed closely concerning their w/s.Actually I would hate it, when the RPG board would influence my writings on the dev-board.

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

[Koldar Mondrakken]

Art, I would be interested in seeing the difference of spiritrual and physical? I don't seee what you refer to as physical or spiritual, both is ultimately flawed in its perception.

What do you call science of the spirit and where lies its difference in science of physics?

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

[Smith in Exile]

There were a bunch of guys working out this difference and a bunch of others who were denying it... lol

In a middle age setting I guess such an answer should be reserved for the Caelerethian characters. As for us as their creators I agree with Arti, let's keep out of a "true" and "all-explaining" system.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Short answer to Koldar:

Magic as spiritual "science" = targeting the aura (the "idea" as Platon would have said) of a being/object, not its merely physical components as a physician or chemist would (they would work the other way round). The physical components change when a mage casts a spell on something, not because the mage targets these components, but because the form, the "construction plan" of the targeted object changes - that what it is meant to represent. Graphical example: You look at your mousepad and wish it to burn. The mage can achieve that with his thoughts alone as he projects the idea of flames at the mousepad, so that a possible property of a mousepad (inflamable) becomes reality, a new idea is created, the "burning mousepad". A good mage doesn't need to touch the mousepad or manipulate it physically, as the aura/idea of the mousepad is spiritual, and the mage connects to that idea through imagination. If you're not that good with imagination (=seeing what realities the possibilities in front of you could produce), you might use a reagent, a catalyst to help that imagination connect to reality. So the learning mages might appear more like chemists or physicians in a way, but in truth they don't use e.g. sulphur to create a physical result, but to help the idea form.

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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/24/04 9:27

[Silfer Darkflare]

*pants after reading all fo the above* Remind me not to discuss this with Arti too much  

However, I am tempted to agree with Artimidor, my friends. There should be an outline, but there shouldn't be atoms.

However, that is but my opinion. e had/have othe ropinions, science included... and well, I do not see how this will solved, as we have starnded here before.

Should however this prove to stay a deadlock and nothing more, and nobody wants to agree and stuff, I will not work with it until it is resolved, nor will I take sides.  

[Koldar Mondrakken]

ok, I wouldn't call it spiritual though, spiritual is more in the context of faith in religion, "Geisteswissenschaften" are called humanities, mainly that "spiritual" sounds strange here because what you describe sounds more like an act of willpower of a conscious mind. In your outline there's no difference between the two anymore so a distinction would be unnecessary in Caelereth.

Platon would be probably an interesting basis for how the whole Oun CarAll thingie and thus Caelerethian physics roughly work.

This concept increases also the belief in gods and allpowerful beings as when humans can change the form of single ideas, something bigger must have been there to create Man and Caelereth. It's also intrigueing that this world view would be kind of reflected in the elven belief in Avá's Dream.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

[Koldar Mondrakken]

Just to tinker around with Platon aka the idea of idea and thought and how imagination, thought and creativity allows a magical talented person to alter the idea of a thing in Santharia. How about it being an important aspect of clerical magic and priests to be capable to deny magic to change the "natural" (natural being defined by the temples) order of the things. In a sense the belief of the temples in a unchangable divine order in the world allowing them to deny magic to work.. or more precise deny mages to change this order. Although that might cause trouble considering the many other religions that also exist because their divine order might stand in conflict to the one of the Twelve...

These thoughts are mainly inspirated in finding a simple and fundamental counterbalance to the powers of the mage capable to limit their influence. On a small scale the ability to manipulate living beings or people in some way might be made difficult by similar factors. Someone with a strong will might thus be resistant to magic as when the person does not allow itself to be changed the magic cannot do so. At the moment there's not really something that'd limit a mage's ability to change things and/or manipulate people.

A very interesting idea one could carve out of this might be that the true power of the Chosen was based on the fact that in their time there were no strong and rigid religious systems thus their power was unlimited because the people didn't believe it to be limited. And that the introduction of the religion of the twelve and others with temples and all was also meant to limit the power of magic users by proclaiming that the world follows a certain set of ideas that cannot be changed. A kind of psychological effect. When someone believes in Caelereth something is possible it can be done somehow, when everything thinks it's impossible it cannot happen.

I don't know if that oversimplifies the concept Arti proposes, these are just some mind games with the general idea that might offer a suitably simple concept to balance the whole thing...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

[Kikhku]

In one of the clerical entries it clearly says "you cannot just disbelieve a fireball."  However it would be an interesting twist if the cleric could visualize the area in which the spell was cast (a fireball would take up the area of a firey ball with a tail, for example) and use his faith to believe that that paticular area is the same way it was before the spell was cast, causing the fireball to dissappear, or at least weaken.  Did that make any sense?

But what other applications would that have?  If clerical magic is based on the cleric believing something into existance...

Say there was a city which was destroyed.  A cleric who resided in that city was out traveling when it was attacked.  Halfway back, a messanger comes and tells him of the city's demise.  If that messanger has been untrustworthy in the past (maybe he's a prankster, or has a habit of lying) giving the cleric a valid reason to doubt him, and the cleric honestly believes with all his heart that the city is alive and well, will the city just rebuild itself and become the way it was because he believes it is the way it was?

And which clerics would be able to just disbelieve magics?

Dear Beth.....

[Koldar Mondrakken]

Just to pick up the fireball example. I meant more that this faith doesn't prevent a flying fireball from hitting  but it makes creating a fireball harder for a mage because he has to overcome the barrier the cleric has established in changing things in such an unnatural way.

This is meant as a balance. A mage thinks his fireball into existance, the cleric has the faith that the mage cannot do such a thing and thus makes it actualöly harder for the mage to twist the Oun to his pleasing. When the fireball is cast there's nothing the cleric can do except to brace himself. The whole fight over wether the spell is successful or not is before the spell is in effect. The cleric denies the mage access to alter a given form/idea into something else.

The idea is simply that the priesthoods establish a sort of divine order in how things are in their view supposed to work and make it thus harder for a mage to  just change everything to his liking because he forms an idea with his own will but the will of an organized temple stands against someone doing this.

A mage can actively give form to a new idea as Arti pointed out and my thought was that a priest can passively prevent that by having his faith that after a divine masterplans only a limited amount of ideas is valid.

This is actually one could consider in making a fundamental concept of the Etherial Void (the border of relaity/manifested ideas and newly forming ones), demons (ideas born outside any divine restraint like nightmares)  and magic (the Oun being the manifestation of an idea a mage attempts either to alter or form a new one) and religion(the main goal of religion being to form stability in such a fragile and chaotic system).

It would seem intrigueing if all this could indeed make sense in such a simple system that does not need any maths or physics to be sound and reasonable while still remaining unpredictable and prone to sudden change.

Well I've stirred up the water enough I guess...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

[Mina]

Oooh...interesting idea...the belief of the clerics competing with the willpower of the mages.  I'm not sure how the Chosen fit into this though.  Their powers, as far as I know, far surpased those of other mages, both in their time and the present.  

[Kikhku]

I picture the chosen to be combinations of Xeua and Ecua who have focused their magics around one element.  Yes, ma'asherom the red may have been able to cause terminal winter, but why would he when Fioros was his patron and Fioros is one of the fire gods?

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Need to still check Koldar's idea, but just a word on the Chosen magic:

We're dealing here with mythical figures, and in this respect it is completely irrelvant (from my point of view) whether they could be put into a drawer from Ximaxian scholars in regard of what magic they cast back then. Or does any scientist try to figure out how Jesus Christ reproduced bread and fish or changed water to wine? If a Ximaxian mage would decide that it would probably have been this way or that way, that's nice for him, but it has no relevance for the myth itself. Ximaxian magic is an explanation of reality, just like physicians or chemists try to explain the world from completely different standpoints (or mages of other cultures), but it stays only an interpretation, and of this we should be aware and not try to bereft the Chosen of their mythical existence.

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[Silfer Darkflare]

I must admit I like the idea of clerics being able to "block" magic. (At least clerics of a certain god - I doubt a cleric of e.g. Etherus would be able to block a lust spell etc.)

[Kikhku]

Good point, arti, good point.  

The antimagic seems like it would fit in well with the goddess Eyasha, the goddess of peace.  I'm not sure if her clerics have been developed yet or not, but it's a decent idea.

Dear Beth.....

[Mina]

I think you've misunderstood what Koldar meant, Kik.  It doesn't look like he was talking about an ability certain clerics have.  I think the idea is that clerics (and religious people in general) have a rather fixed (due to the advent of organised religion) idea of how the world works and such.  To cast a spell, mages have to impose their will on the world, to cause effects to happen.  Thus, with the advent of organised religion, spellcasting becomes more difficult.  Clerics have ways to get around this, of course, such as believing that their deities cause the spell effects.  

I think that it might be possible that the 'antimagic' effect might vary somewhat with the location, and might even affect clerics.  A Santharian cleric in Aeruillin, for example, where the religion is very different, might find it more difficult to cast spells, due to having to work against the beliefs of the locals.  Actually, I'm not sure if proximity has anything to do with it, but it seems logical.  This would mean that magic might be more difficult in temples, or in the presence of clerics and other very religious people.  This might also explain why clerical magic works better on religious people.  Conversely, it could also mean that in places with a high concentration of mages, such as Ximax, magic might be easier, because of the magi's belief in the way magic works, and their ability to perform magic.  

This seems to be getting pretty complicated.  

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