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Author Topic: Conjure Wind, Wind School, Level I (mostly done)  (Read 12447 times)
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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #15 on: 11 November 2005, 18:04:00 »

Art: Tis not yet a problem in my view. What you are saying here is just new and unexpected, read Mina's post about what we thought the Spheres were about. And we do want to have correct knowledge in magic, hence we ask for explanations.

Assuming that conjuring wind where you don't see is Sphere 3, I have but one question: Why is it possible with Sphere 3 contra the other two, as in: What makes Sphere 3 way of doing things helpful in thsi respect?

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #16 on: 12 November 2005, 06:33:00 »

"There is merely the added step of having to be able to visualise the area" - merely? Yeah sure, and next time I want some orange juice from the supermarket I just envision the supermarket, grab it from there - and I have it hear? Because grabbing it I can do, you know. So following this line of logic grabbing it from a location I don't see is pretty much the same as grabbing it from somewhere where I can see the object? - Can't see why this would work.

The difference why it would work at Sphere III is as described above - because it's a combination of spells, creating new energies and possibilities in doing so, which you are unable to achieve with a simple Sphere I spell, which is pretty much straightforward. Here we have a nice example on how to effectively make a Sphere III spell. We can define certain limits and possibilities taking this explanation into account. If there is a second spell based on this one, which is Sphere III, then the Sphere III spell with added wind could be as well tremendously strong at the higher levels, everything a Sphere I spell cannot do.


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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #17 on: 12 November 2005, 11:11:00 »

I see your point, but disagree with your conclusion. That pulling wind from an area you can't see would require a separate spell - well, sure, why not. As for that spell being Sphere 3, not necessarily. If something is harder to achieve says nothing about means. As you yourself say, Art, "grabbing it I can do". The act of grabbing is the same, seeing or blindfolded. To "get at it" without seeing would require visualising the area, concentrating harder etc. - all pointing to a restriction in level. Thus grabbing it from the supermarket would require even higher level, because magic in santharia isn't allowed to eschew distance - teleporting etc. isn't allowed. Thus, you have to reach across the distance.

I especially disagree with the redefining of Spheres by saying that "everything complex/hard to do goes into Sphere 3" (this point has been raised by me before, I think). While it may be eaiser to do by Sphere 3 means, does and should not automatically make it impossible with other Spheres.  

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #18 on: 12 November 2005, 11:59:00 »

:notthatway  

Complete disagreement here. Can't disagree more. "The act of grabbing is the same, seeing or blindfolded." Taking (as an analogy to "doing magic") is something directed, being blindfolded means to have no idea what you grab and stumble around with no idea whatsoever. This points so NOT into a restriction area that it hurts. Sorry, but if I'm extremely good at "grabbing" something then I won't get very far if I'm sitting at home and want something from the supermarket.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 11/11/05 19:00
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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #19 on: 12 November 2005, 13:20:00 »

Quote:
Sorry, but if I'm extremely good at "grabbing" something then I won't get very far if I'm sitting at home and want something from the supermarket.


Well, that would depend on your reach, in this case reach of magic influence. But thank you, Arti, I very clearly understand that we disagree - any suggestions at what we shall attempt to move onwards from this point?  

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xerampelinae deicida
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« Reply #20 on: 12 November 2005, 15:53:00 »

What level do you need to be to perform strong forms of this spell for example blow down an oponent, blow down several, lift a pyge, lift 100 pyges?

What about blowing whole armys into the sea?

Can a mage use this spell to fly? Could he cause an entire army to fly with him to make an attack travel very fast or retreat when cornered?

As far as enhancing measures wizardleaf would make since its associated with ellemental magic.

A feather would be good too particularly a feather of a good flyer. Gryph gryphon, avéquis, manticore, feathered wyvern, and pegasus feathers would all seem like good choises for the most powerfull uses of this spell.

Vévan’már, howler goose, torán eagle, banded ricau, snobyrr, wood owl, corbie and horsefay would all seem to be good choises for powerfull enhancers as well.

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Mina
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« Reply #21 on: 14 November 2005, 01:33:00 »

Maybe you're not being technical enough, Arti, because I'm still not getting it.  What I do get, however, is that we might have rather different ideas of what Silfer is calling the reach of magical influence.  So, I'll just post what I think is the case and let you go through it.  

Magical influence, that is, the ability of a mage to force his will on the environment and alter it, has an infinite range, but at a certain point, depending on the power of the mage, the influence is so tiny that it is negligible.  You can compare it to, say, gravity.  Gravity, as far as I remember, has an infinite range, but its influence drops with distance, and if you get far enough, its influence is small enough to be safely neglected for most things.  The same with magic.  A complete beginner might be weak enough that he has negligible influence beyond what he can touch, but an archmage's influence could potentially reach hundreds of peds away (depending on the power of the spell he is casting, of course).  

To use your analogy of grabbing a drink, what I originally had in mind for this spell is not that the drink is in the supermarket (ie. out of reach), but that it is within reach, but out of sight.  Now, to get at the drink in this case, you need to have a good idea of where it is, sort of seeing it in your mind (or you could feel around for it, but that wasn't what I had in mind when writing the spell).  You obviously agree with me somewhere around this part, but I'm not sure what exactly, or why.  It'd be great if you could explain why that makes it sphere 3.  Right now, it's sounding like sphere 3 is a sort of 'none of the above' category, which I'm sure is not the case.  

By the way, the entry was edited before I made my last post, in case you guys didn't notice.  

Xera: It depends, but I'll say probably around level 10 to blow a light person off their feet, and impossible for anything harder than that.  Winds are generally not very good at blowing heavy things away, and people are pretty heavy.  You're better off using telekinesis for that sort of stuff...but it's a more advanced spell.  

Flying with this spell...well, if you can generate strong enough winds, which is unlikely, I suppose it's not exacly impossible, but it would be very impractical and dangerous due to a lack of control.  Again, you're better off using something more advanced.  You'd know those by the time you're strong enough to use this spell for flight anyway.  


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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #22 on: 14 November 2005, 03:30:00 »

Sphere III and why in short (not I don't repeat myself):

- Mage focusses on a visible spot.
- Casts "Attract Wind" to this visible spot.
- Wind gathers there from a location he cannot see.
- Mage casts another spell which now is capable of doing much more with the additional wind gained (=creation of new energies).
- Put these two spells together, call it one advanced spell (Attract Wind + Conjure Wind) and you get a reason why there is a Sphere III and a new spell, which might end up in a tornado.


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xerampelinae deicida
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« Reply #23 on: 14 November 2005, 13:30:00 »

I like Artimidor's idea of attract wind spell creating a tornado. Would this spell have to be limited to 1 visible spot?
Could a higher level mage attract winds to multiple spots at once or attract wind to spots he couldn't see? That might be very usefull in battle if he had enemies  comming from all directions.

Does this spell have to be restricted to speeds that we normally find here on earth? could a level 12 mage using wizard leaf and  feathered wyvern feathers create a wind that travels sevral furlay in seconds. this could be used as a more omnidirectional blast then telekinesis.

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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #24 on: 14 November 2005, 15:44:00 »

Arti: I understand what you are saying with the above. I assume that you could also use the two spells separate, so if both those spells are sphere 1, a sphere 1 mage could execute the combo, but not as quickly/not together, but first one then the other. Question: Do you imply that it is not possible to affect something outside of sight directly, then? Quote: Mage focusses on a visible spot.

Also, I very much dislike that you completely ignore what Mina and I are saying. I can't imagine it to be in accordance with what Santharia is supposed to be like, take your dreamer's code for example.

Edited by: Silfer Darkflare at: 11/13/05 22:55
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #25 on: 15 November 2005, 05:35:00 »

Yes, in order to make things realistic I object to making mages supermen and cast spells which can destroy stuff somewhere else around the globe, just for fun with a simple Level I wind spell. If a target is involved, which is not within the caster's arcane mental abilities (mainly Ecuá or Ecuá related magic, e.g. summoning), I don't see why this should work at simple spells. This would destroy any kind of realism.

I don't ignore your posts, I just see no feasible explanation at all you're providing - and this is definitely not working. Who says that "magic has an infinite range"? That's as if you'd say "human arms reach all over the world", but unfortunately nobody can ever reach the orange juice in the supermarket, though. This is already a very questionable premise and from a wrong assumption deductions can't get very far. Human arms have limits and magic has limits as well.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 11/14/05 14:38
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« Reply #26 on: 15 November 2005, 08:12:00 »

I said that was my original assumption.  And I also said that I had believed that what you could do decreased with range, so destroying stuff halfway around the world would be pretty much impossible for anyone.  Except maybe the Chosen, if you want to count them.  


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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #27 on: 15 November 2005, 09:55:00 »

Of course magic has limits, I never said anything about infinite range. However, there is a difference between affecting what is in front of you with eye closed, and affecting something across the globe. The premise "magic does not have infinte range" does in no way imply "magic does not have any range". As I said previously, magic cannot eschew distance, so just like your arms have a reach, so does magic have a reach. taking your argument with the supermarket, you can't from the premise argue that since you can't get the juice from the supermarket, you can't get it from right under your nose either. It's like saying: "Since I can't earn a million, I can't earn a hundred either, becuase a hundrer is part of the million". Surely you see that this doesn't work either.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #28 on: 15 November 2005, 10:29:00 »

If you want to manipulate earth as an elemental mage, then earth needs to be there, I'm sorry. Everything else is more fantasy than a consistent magical system. Affecting something around the next corner is pretty much the same as affecting something at the Fidji Isles - you cannot do it.


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« Reply #29 on: 15 November 2005, 11:48:00 »

No, no Art, it's different, will explain it later more clearly.  

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